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Lathe - Bearing

 
 

 

 
 
Hot bearings in the south/Bearing with it (Jul 22, 2001) It looks bad, bearings (Dec 18, 2003)
Binding (Dec 8, 2001) Correct position of 10K headstock brg? (Apr 14, 2004)
Bearing adjustment (Dec 11, 2001) Spindle bearing adjustment (Apr 15, 2004)
Bearings Again (Dec 12, 2001) Adjusting My Large Spindle Bearing (Apr 30, 2004)
Real warm spindle bearings (Sep 13, 2002) Bearing some improvement (May 4, 2004)
10L bearing adjustment (Sep 16, 2002) 10k bearing question (May 5, 2004)
Tip for new bearings on 9" lathe (Jan 17, 2003) Thrust bearing (May 21, 2004)
Advice for spindle bearing adjustment (Jan 24, 2003) Spindle bearing question (Jul 6, 2004)
Roller bearing SB Model A experiment (Feb 10, 2003) Hot Bearings (Aug 19, 2004)
Hot brg. (Mar 17, 2003) Help with 9" main bearing (Oct 11, 2004)
Roller bearings (Mar 17, 2003) Spindle bearing wear (Oct 14, 2004)
Spindle bearing Clearance (Apr 13, 2003) 9" spindle bearing shims (Nov 15, 2004)
My recent bearing problems (Jun 18, 2003) Spindle needle bearing (Dec 1, 2004)
Thrust Bearing Mod On Compound Screw? (Jul 17, 2003) Thrust bearings (Dec 2, 2004)
10in heavy spindle bearing problem (Aug 28, 2003) Heavy 10 Bearing Caps (Dec 11, 2004)
Inspecting the spindle bearings? (Sep 9, 2003) Spindle bearing upgrade (Dec 15, 2004)
Spindle Bearing Problem (Sep 12, 2003) Thrust bearings (Feb 18, 2005)
Cast iron spindle bearings? (Nov 4, 2003) Spindle bearing shims (Mar 12, 2005)
 
Hot bearings in the south/Bearing with it 
If you got a hot 'south-end' my guess is it isn't the thrust bearing, it's the main bearing. I would start with the wiggle test to see if you got play in the mains first. Put a bar in the bore with an indicator on it. Do this while the bearings are cold. Anything more then .0015 will need attention. Get a copy of the maintenance book from the company that covers your lathe. Follow the instruction. I got my book from them and it not only gives me the bearing info., but drawings and maint./lube. charts etc. Well worth the $25 I'll tell ya. As far as your thrust bearing is concerned, can you shuck it back and forth? If so there is a take-up nut on the outboard-side of the south main. An Allen wrench loosens the nut (a threaded collar really) so you can take up all but tiny bit of 'lash. Smear some grease on the exposed ball-race. Let it run up to temp. and check for heat again. If it's hot, back off on the collar a bit and re-check. Normally, bearings should be adjusted in a warm-up mode. IMHO. This way they have already expanded as much as they are going to. Ron (1156)
For some reason I didn't receive the original query, but Ron has covered the basics of the measurements quite well. If the spindle otherwise spins freely (no binding or high drag) when cold, then I'd flush the old oil out and use the Mobil I synthetic a number of us have been using for years. The newer 0W-30 seems the closest to the spindle oil viscosity that South Bend mentions. It will reduce your running temperature significantly, especially at higher speeds. If you're worried about suspended solids, you can drain the little reservoirs once a month by turning the oil cups upside down, but I've never bothered after doing it once, as the spindle bearings are a continuous loss system like the Bridgeport. The radial movement test on mine hasn't changed in five years, so the bearings are obviously staying in good shape. Mike (1157)
Jim, you may want to re-consider the idea. Before roller bearings were put into this size lathe, tapered bronze bushings were used. Actually it was the Celts of Europe prior to the Middle Ages who invented roller-bearings for their chariots! ANYWAY, Let's start with working with what you have there. Are your bearings loose? Is the head stock out of line? I think your best bet would be to either tighten your mains by using the peel-the-shim method or replacement bearings. This alone should solve your problem. You can always speak with tech-support at SBL. Ron (1162)
As it turns out, I was able to adjust the slop out of my lathe, down to .002. The chuck was the real culprit! It'll have to be replaced. By the way : I have been Airborne qualified for many years! Jim (1166)
Jim, Good to see that you were able to solve your problem so simply. Conversion to roller bearings would have been difficult if not impossible and I'm not quite sure how to go about repairing the integral cast iron bearings in a model C, given that they adjust by pulling the casting together. Possibly by boring and pinning in a split bronze insert? Doesn't seem satisfactory offhand. Tom (1167)
My friend that owns a large machine shop says it can be done - line bore the casting, and install thin roller bearings. Luckily, I had the option I learned about from the board. I'm very grateful to guys like Tom and Tony that take time out of their busy lives and to help a newcomer. I asked for help on this problem on another board and was ignored. Jim (1168)
A link found in the bookmarks of this group shows a drawing of an underneath motor drive headstock with a split bushing. Does anyone have a detail drawing or knowledge of its design, such as is it grooved, plain, wall thickness and oiling method. I contacted one member off group that was kind enough to share with me his method of align boring his headstock. We discussed bearings and over size spindles, I prefer bushings I can knock out and replace when faced with the same situation again. George (1169)
Actually the making of a bearing replacement with a mill and a lathe isn't very hard. You can buy bearings that are close to the needed dimensions then the finish work on them is straight forward. Yasmiin (1170)
Yasmiin, I agree completely with regard to the machining. However, if you follow the link in George's post (nice info on 9" parts there) you will find that the bearing is made in one piece with a split. This presents some problems with locating and alignment not present with either a one piece solid bearing or a two piece insert. It Seems to me that the split bearing can only be rigidly attached at one point. It will have to slip a certain amount as the headstock bore is drawn down by adjustment. Some provision must be made to keep the axis of the bearing from shifting with relation to the axis of the bore and take up thrust (a shoulder perhaps?). Not at all impossible but requires some thought to make it work well. If anyone has been into one of the underneath drive machines, it would be interesting to know how SB did this. Tom (1172)
Tom, I am not sure that holding the bearing in place is necessary. The bore for the bearing is of course slightly tapered as is the outside of the bearing itself. I can't claim to have dismantled every machine with this type of bearing but the ones I have seem to depend on the friction of the bore on the bearing to hold them in place. It would be interesting to know if SB did this or did they put in something to keep the bearing from turning in the bore. I agree about the thrust part and there seem to be one adjustment for the bearing an a separate one creating the shoulder you mentioned as a second adjustment. I have one on my desk here that has a sliding collar held by some set screws that goes against the bearing adjustment. There are several pieces to this adjustment. One can see why a modern ball or roller bearing is a lot cheaper to build. Yasmiin (1173)
Wasn't there an article in HMS about this exact subject? Seems like the fix was to bore out the headstock casting till it was true, then true and sleeve the arbor to fit the bore. They didn't really get into any of the arguments surrounding changing bearing types or anything, just wanted to get back to like new clearances. (1177)
Yup, it was called something like "The Rebirth of a Model C" from an older HSM. As far as I can tell, there's nothing wrong with a hardened super-polished spindle running in a cast-iron bearing. Most cared-for 9" SBs are still in fine shape. When I got a different headstock for my 9", the spindle was scored so I tried to get another one from the seller (a guy who sells on eBay). The replacement he sent was in pristine shape, but the bearing surface diameters were too big and he never returned emails after that. I ended up getting another one from someone else and have stashed away that "too big" one in case I ever need to bore out the headstock. I keep the old scored one on hand to test the fit of the nose threads as I'm making chucks and closers. Paul R. (1178)
Binding
I have 9" SB A model lathe. I bought it about 10 months ago and everything seem to be working well. I chucked in a piece to work on and brought the tail stock with a live center to stabilize the work. When rotating by hand I noticed that there seemed to a binding that hinders rotation. There is also a small thump when rotated by hand. When I pull the center back out of the work, rotation is free again. When I crank the center in again rotation is hindered again. I don't believe that I am putting to much pressure on with the tail stock. Steve (2360)
Could it have something to do with the spindle thrust bearing? Is there any axial play in the spindle, i.e. does it move away from the tailstock as the TS ram is advanced? The Spindle is captivated axially by a thrust bearing in one direction, and a fiber washer and clamp collar in the other direction. That's one reason why you always turn towards the headstock. Adjusting the clamp collar will remove the axial play, but if there's trouble with the thrust bearing there's not a whole lot you can do except fix it. BTW, we are assuming that you lube the center hole in the workpiece before bringing up the tailstock center, and that the center hole is drilled properly, and that the tailstock center is in good shape. Paul R. (2361)
Have you taken your bearings apart for inspection. I have two South Bends that use bronze bearings. In their previous lifetimes swarf had somehow gotten into them and scored the journals. The journals then wore to correspond to the shape of the journals. Any end thrust from the tailstock tends to wedge the spindle into the grooves in the bushings. The only way I know of correcting this is to grind the spindle bearing surfaces true, then make a set of undersized bearing bronzes. Of course, your SB may have a different bearing setup than mine. Some SB spindles are supported directly by the cast-iron headstock--no bearing inserts. Orrin (2363)
Have you check the live center for a tight/bad spot? It might be that. As to the spindle, the washer that fits on the spindle nose right behind the threaded section is pressed on. It should sit just behind the shoulder that your chucks snug against. Its purpose is to keep swarf out of the bearings and minimize oil loss. If you are indicating this washer and have only 1/2 thousandth (.0005") of runout, don't worry about it. If you are indicating the shoulder the chuck registers against, then I would leave it alone. runout of .0005" here is allowable for an engine lathe. A "toolroom" lathe can allow around .0002" to .0003" runout here. But I would not go re-machining this shoulder if you are not experienced. One slip and you could ruin the spindle of your lathe. Also, I would check all other possibilities first. The thrust bearing on the spindle is open around its periphery and it is possible to get contamination in the bearing. To remove your spindle and clean this bearing is not difficult. 1) Remove the reverse tumbler assembly, 2) Loosen the pinch-screw on the locking ring and remove locking ring and fiber washer. 3) Tap the spindle with a lead hammer (or soft faced "deadblow" hammer) from the rear until the spindle is free from the Bull gear. 4) Carefully withdraw spindle from the headstock (try not to damage the bearings). As you slide the spindle out, remove the thrust bearing, step pulley, and Bull gear in turn as the spindle clears them. When replacing the spindle, the hardest thing is to do is get the woodruff key aligned with the slot in the Bull gear. Tap lightly and don't force it. If it doesn't want to go, pull it apart and check for alignment or burrs. When threading the lockring on to the spindle, you should tighten it just enough to prevent the left-hand bearing race of the thrust bearing (the side up against the rear spindle bearing casting boss) from turning when the spindle is rotated. Webb (2366)
Bearing adjustment
Thanks to the person who insisted that the bearing shims on the 9" lathe really are laminated. I'm sorry I can't find your post with your name on it, but you were absolutely correct, although until I picked at the corner with a knife I never would have believed it. With one shim peeled I can get the bearing tightened up so it only has around .0015 to .002" of vertical play - perhaps still too much, but much better than before. The most sensible method I found was to loosen the bolt, lift up on the spindle with a bar, and then tighten the bolt until turning it further no longer lowered the spindle as shown on the indicator. The rear bearing seemed mostly to control the amount that the spindle could be pushed down, so I ended up leaving its shims alone. Now if I could just figure out how to get collar tight enough to keep the thrust ball bearing from making weird noises without having so much drag on the spindle. Chris (2388)
Chris, Kim Steiner Is the one who insisted that you had the laminated shim pack. I should have done the same but I have seen so many lathes with weird jury-rigged systems for "fixing" their problems, I wasn't sure that you didn't have a shop made solid shim there. When you adjust your bearings, adjust both front and rear bearings. The clearances (.0007" to .0010" for bronze bearings and .0010" to .0015" for cast iron bearings) apply to both ends. The procedure for testing clearance is with bearing caps drawn down tight. Set up a dial indicator on the nose of the spindle just behind the threads. Then insert a hefty piece of barstock into the hollow center on the spindle. Push down on the barstock to force the spindle down and zero the dial or record the reading. Then lift up on the barstock with about 50 to 75 pounds of force and record the new reading. This will give you the true "play" in the bearing. Repeat this at the rear of the spindle. If you are in the .0015" to .0020" range, you may have to remove another .002" laminate shim off and replace it with a .001" to get the clearance right. The locking thrust take-up nut should be tightened just enough to prevent the left hand race of the thrust bearing from spinning. Make sure the take-up nut has the fiber washer under it. If your thrust bearing is noisy, it is either dirty or it has some pitting of the races or balls. These bearings are pretty tough and do not damage easily. I would bet that it is just dirty. If you can't remove the spindle so that you can clean the bearing properly, then I would recommend you try an aerosol cleaner like "Brake Clean." Get one that has the little plastic straw that you insert into the spray tip and then you can direct the solvent directly into the bearing and flush away any contaminants. "Brake Clean" can be hard on painter surfaces and the fumes are something to avoid breathing. It is not very flammable, but if you have an "underdrive" lathe, I would place some rags over the motor to catch the solvent drippings. After you clean the bearing, oil it well. Do not use grease! Dirt and chips will stick in the grease and quickly contaminate the grease. Oil will drain out when the lathe is idle and be self cleaning some what. you will need to oil this bearing every time you use the lathe. Just make it part of your regular oiling routine. Webb (2389)
So should I put the indicator at the back of the spindle for doing the rear bearing? Mine only has a thin 'wavy washer' which I would assume is made of spring steel between the take-up nut and the casting. Yesterday someone else on the list implied this was normal. Am I indeed missing something? If so, any idea how I could make a suitable substitute? I guess I should try flushing the thrust bearing with oil. Chris (2390)
Chris, When you adjust the rear bearing, you place the dial indicator on the rear of the spindle with the contact point of the indicator on top of the take-up nut. As to the fiber washer, I've only seen one SBL lathe that had a metal washer instead of the fiber one. This was an old cabinet model made before World War II. My first lathe was a war model made during 1942 and it had the fiber washer. Though, South Bend Lathe made many variations and it wouldn't surprise me if your came with a steel washer. Call SBL up and ask someone in their technical department about it. Maybe they could shed some light on it. If it is a factory made part, it should have a pin that engages the back of the take-up nut; so the washer and the take-up nut revolve as a unit. Webb (2394)
Bearings Again
For those of us who haven't been this far inside our machines and don't know quite as much about the bearing particulars, a few questions for the group: Is there a roller bearing or a sleeve replacement mod for the headstock that can give the SB 9 and 10's a better top speed and runout tolerances? presumably the stock may need reamed or bored, or the spindle cut down to allow room for this, has anybody done this or tried -possibly to restore an older machine that has lost it's grip on tolerances? Even a split and tapered aluminum bronze sleeve in the right side should give an adjustable bearing that could likely stand 2500RPM plus with proper lube, the tail bearing would need other work though, is it these bearings or the thrust bearing that limits the RPM? which SB machines had the factory bronze bearing? Same for the thrust bearing - is there a timken etc. replacement for this bearing that might be a sealed type. BTW - many of the 9's I have seen are absent the fiber washer behind the spindle tension nut - how critical is this? (2391)
I would think this would require substantial rework, possibly even the casting of a new headstock, as rolling contact bearings tend to have a substantially larger OD than ID. If I were going to go to the trouble, I would make a larger diameter spindle which could take 5C collets while I was at it, and I have given it semi-serious thought. If someone could figure out how to do it practically, maybe the metal lathe accessories guy could be persuaded to sell the castings. I'm imagining somehow boring the new headstock casting using the existing headstock, and boring the new spindle once it is mounted. I would assume it is the hydrostatic (bronze or cast iron) not the rolling contact (thrust) bearing which limits the speed. I do not know about the speed rating of aluminum bronze (perhaps perusal of Machinery's handbook is in order) but I can say that the larger swing South Bends, which I think tend to have bronze bearings of some sort, come set up with lower top speeds than the 9" plain bearing lathe. Of course the bearings are larger diameter there too, so the surface speed would be higher for a given RPM. Chris (2392)
Real warm spindle bearings
I have a project going that I need to do with my heavy ten tool room South Bend. That's the only lathe I have that has a collet closer. Because I have a lot of parts to turn I set the spindle speed up to the fastest it will go and then I notice that the spindle bearing get warmer than I feel comfortable with. Heats up in 10 or 15 minutes. What is normal for this machine? I regret that I do not have a temperature probe to measure the actual temperature rise . The temperature by feel is very much warmer than I get with another machine that I use most regularly. That other machine has steel bearings in races and its bathed in oil. What does this heavy 10 have? Alphawolf45 (6300)
Large plain bearings (two different designs - one with inserts, one the native cast iron of the headstock) with a small sump beneath each bearing. With normal lubricants, you'll get exactly what you are experiencing, requiring loosening up the bearing clearance slightly at higher speeds to keep the temperature down. It is basically caused by turbulence in the film boundary between the inner and outer bearing surface, which in turn produces heat. If you'll switch to Mobil I 0W-30 in the spindle sumps, as a number of us have run *for years*, you won't have to adjust your bearings every time you want to run at high speed. It essentially cuts any further wear to near zero, and is significantly more "slippery" than the old spec that SB has used for years. That greater ability of the molecular layers to slide between each other without turbulence is what lowers the temperature. Try it in your lathe for 20 minutes and you'll be amazed at the difference in temperature at the high speed end. If you want more info, there was a discussion of this subject back on November 8th...should be in the archives. No, it will *NOT* dissolve all the crud in the reservoirs and no, it will *NOT* score your bearings - UNLESS you have never cleaned out the sumps - and if that's the case, shame on you! Mike (6305)
Mike I learned a lot from your reply to my question. I didn't know about the use of mobile 1 or the need to clean out the sump. Heck buddy , I didn't even know I had a sump. LOL Shame on me for being an ignorant chip slinger. Would you mind telling me the proper method of sump cleaning? Alphawolf45 (6306)
I wouldn't consider anyone on this reflector ignorant because they like to shift metal rather than constantly maintain their lathes. To me, making chips is the bottom line. On the other hand, I see 99.9% of the queries are about that maintenance aspect, so I guess it's easier to assume everyone here has a bias towards it. :-) No offense intended, certainly, because I'm inclined toward the use it or lose it side. The word 'sump' is one I picked up here, but in the Heavy 10 case it's somewhat overstating the term a bit. There is a vertical ~3/8" bore in the bottom of each of the plain bearings that is maybe an inch and a half deep - I never measured it. At the bottom of the bore there is an intersecting horizontal hole drilled from the front of the headstock, into which are threaded the oil cups on the front. That's the extent of the oil-holding sump itself - though there is an hole drilled at an angle to facilitate holding the spring felt 'cartridge' in the bore while replacing the spindle and two more from the edge of the bearing to the sump to provide excess oil return from the edge of the bearing. This is not 100% return, since there are no seals, nor intended to be - each bearing "weeps" a little oil constantly in this design so that you have to continually recharge the reservoir on a regular basis based on use. That's what keeps small swarf particles moving outward rather than being sucked into an enclosed system. Those holes are not really part of the 'sump' proper, however, and there seem to be several variants of this depending on when the lathe was manufactured. If you invert the oil cups, the oil in the bottom of the vertical bore runs out down the front of the headstock. That's how I change oil in the sump every few months. To clean out that simple system if you wish to change oil types, you need to remove the spindle - that has been hashed over here a number of times - and gain access to the vertical bore. Using pipe cleaners, dental tools, compressed air, and solvent it's easy enough to clean it out after removing the spring and cartridge combo. Mike (6316)
10L bearing adjustment
You wrote on the SBL yahoo list: No where do I recall you performing the spindle adjustment procedure as described in the lathe manual. Rather than just arbitrarily shimming the bearing caps, follow the adjustment procedure described in the manual. [Note that if you have done that ignore that comment] But the bearing cap bolts shims are a way to adjust the ID of the bearing in the vertical plane, the little screws on top (under the pipe plugs) may offer a "slight bit" of adjustment in the horizontal plane. If the bearings that are currently in place are from another spindle (maybe switched by the previous owner?) maybe until it "wears in" it will continue to run on the hot side, in which case you probably should run it loose then after so many hours decrease the shim stack by .0005. With the stated previous high running temps, any sign of localized wear on the bearing surface? That might indicate the region where it is "tight". (6349)
Mark. You are correct that I am not following the manual with this adjustment. I don't have the manual nor do I know exactly what I am doing. That is why I am on this list LOL. I found the major cause of the overheating spindle. Pretty obvious Had I been a bit sharper. On the back end of the spindle , behind the back bearing is a split nut with a bolt to tighten and lock the split nut into a position to take up the linear play from the spindle and preload the thrust bearing that is located on the other side of the bearing cap. The split nut had broken and was welded up. The nut was then drilled and tapped for a pair of small set screws that actually tighten against the threaded spindle. Apparently the set screws engage a portion of the spindle thread that causes the split nut to press unevenly against the backside of the bearing housing. Only a small surface area is in contact at any one time while in use and so there is a rubbing and friction heat buildup going on . I will need to disassemble the spindle again and make a new split nut. Then I will take the advice as was given here to reassemble the bearings without the spindle and measure for roundness Anybody know of a page here on the net that can guide a person through this proper South Bend approved procedure that you mention? Alphawolf45 (6350)
From my manual, it says to put a dial indicator on top of the front part of the headstock. Stick a piece of bar stock through the spindle, and lift up with a force of about 75 lbs. The indicator should move in between .0007" and .001". If the play is greater than .001", then peel a .0015" layer off of the shim on one side (the shims are actually stacks of thin layers, not a single thick piece). Repeat the procedure for the bearing at the other end of the headstock. For adjusting the axial play of the thrust bearing, the book says, "Hand tighten the take up nut, then back off approx. 3/8" (circular measurement), and lock in place with screw. Check to see that cone pulley runs free." I hope this makes sense to you. The take up nut is a kind of split collar with an internal thread that goes onto the spindle. It is in between the spindle gear and the rear Babbitt bearing cap. Jon(6367)
Jon Exactly what I was needing. I will come upon a manual someday , I am sure , but till then I appreciate you taking the time to share the excerpts from your manual on proper bearing adjustment procedure. One of my difficulties that I have is coming up with correct terminology for these parts. The split collar your book describes is the item that was broken and then welded and finally had set screws tapped into it by a previous owner. Not an item that shows up by itself on eBay - I will make a new one myself in the next few days. Jon (6372)
Tip for new bearings on 9" lathe
I just got through fitting my new bearings to my 20's 0r 30's 9" C type lathe. I machined them with the proper clearance of .0015" to .002" over all after polishing and removing taper from the spindle. I installed them shimmed them to the .0015" to .002" spindle slop and installed new thrust bearings. and they where still tight. I ran it for a while watching the oil level and I could hear the change in speed, add a little oil and then it speeds back up. tried a lighter oil no help tried a heavier oil, worse. took the lathe apart and cut groves in the bearing around the diameter and in a spiral. Cleaned the bearings up add fresh oil tighten everything down and let it fly. works like a champ now bearings are much freer and uses less oil. BTW I machined them from 936 bearing alloy and I have a 6" chuck on it which doesn't help. Run out is less then .001" but the bearing don't get hot not even after an hour of running at 1000 RPMs (installed a larger sheeve on my motor along with a bigger motor) Just wanted to let you guys now the results I got. Kerry (8732)
Advice for spindle bearing adjustment
I have an older lathe (1930's or 40's?) called a simplex that is similar in design to the Southbend. It is a gap bed floor mounted engine lathe 12" swing with gap/18" w/o gap and 74" bed ways length. It is flat belt 3 step cone pulley spindle drive. I use this lathe regularly ,however, I was wondering what is the best technique for adjusting/tightening the spindle bearings. It has two locking spanner nuts on each side of the bearing on the chuck side of the spindle and one locking spanner nut on the front side of the bearing on the gear train side of the spindle. Also on the spindle speed chart there are 12 speeds you can obtain with this lathe. 6 speeds in direct drive (position A) and 6 speeds back geared (position B). Position A being unlocked cone pulley and back gears not in mesh and position B being locked in cone pulley and back gears in mesh. Of the 6 speeds each, the flat belt position is changed to one of the three steps on the cone pulley as well. The problem is that I can only get 6 of the 12 speeds by changing belt positions and going from direct drive (A) to back gear (B). On the chart one set of 6 is labeled with an S (3 each under A and 3 each under B). The other set of 6 is labeled with an R (3 each under A and 3 each under B). I can get the speeds labeled with S. I am still trying to get the R speeds. The link below will take you to a spindle speed chart for this lathe for better explanation. I also have pictures of the lathe I can send. If the link doesn't work I can send it too. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/simplexlathes/files/Simplex%20Spindle%20Speed%20Chart.doc  Rush (8897)
The link failed. However, for South Bend lathes (and I expect most others) there is a countershaft which contains a coned pulley which drives the flat belt to the spindle coned pulley. This countershaft needs to turn much slower than most electric motors, so there is an additional belt providing speed reduction from a small motor pulley to a large pulley on this countershaft. On many SB lathes this is a V-belt, although it uses a V pulley only on the motor shaft and a flat pulley on the countershaft. In any case, on most SB lathes there are 2 notches in the V pulley on the motor, and two steps on the flat pulley on the countershaft. Moving the V-belt between these provides the additional choice to get from 6 speeds to 12. The flat pulley on the countershaft (on SB lathes) facilitates changing the belt position. That may or may not fit with your lathe, either originally or now (some parts could have been lost or replaced). Frank (8912)
Frank, The lathe I have has a large 4 position v groove pulley mounted on the counter shaft left of the lower cone and a smaller 4 position v groove pulley mounted on the motor shaft. All 4 grooves are the same diameter and there are 4 belts mounted to them for pulling. So the only changes you can make is with the flat belt on the 3 step cone pulleys. I have created a homepage at the link below you can go to. Once there click the blue italics Simplex Lathe subtitle under the lathe picture. It is a link to a Simplex Lathe page with 4 links in red that are specifications and pics that illustrate my lathe that I have prepared. One of the links in red is a spindle speed chart showing the speeds under S and under R. I can get the speeds under S thru flat belt changes and going from direct to back gear drive. I'm still trying to figure out how to get the speeds labeled R. Rush (8980)
Rush OK, It looks like it is not a 2nd belt choice. Here's another shot at it. Did you look at the motor nameplate? By any chance is it a 2 speed motor? SB offered such things on some lathes, typically larger lathes. Is the motor original from what you can tell? Perhaps the motor is a replacement, where the original was 2-speed. Do you have the original motor controller, and are there any hints to 2 speeds there? All of the SB 2-speed motors are 3 phase. Perhaps somebody swapped for a (single speed) single phase motor? Frank (8996)
Frank, I'm not sure if it is the original motor. I also thought it could be a two speed motor requirement there. I'll have to look at that again. I am pretty sure it is a 3 phase motor because everything in the shop is wired for 3 phase with the exception of small bench drills and utility grinders. I'll take a pic of the motor and the lower cone assembly and put it on my webpage with the other pics. I don't have a parts manual for this machine because it seems to be a rare name so knowing if everything is original is kind of hard to tell. Rush (8997)
Frank, After further looking I believe that the setup with 4 vee belts running from the motor to the lower countershaft large vee groove pulley is an original setup. I have found that this is a 2 speed 3 phase motor. The other pigtail of 3 wires was disconnected from the switch and laying in the floor taped up behind the motor. The contact switch is mounted under the quick change gear box and has 6 contact locations. Different contacts pull up and open when the switch handle position is changed. There are 5 positions. They seem to be 2 reverses, a neutral, and 2 forwards. High speed reverse being all the way up and high speed forward being all the way down and neutral in the middle. The pigtail of 3 wires coming out of the high speed side of the motor is connected to the first 3 contacts. Red is first and is 220 volts. White is second and is 120 volts. Black is connected to the third contact and is 120 volts. The last 3 contacts have been disconnected from. I did an ohm check on the 3 wires that are disconnected from the contacts and they all had a reading so they are connected to the motor side. The problem now is I don't have a wiring diagram for this lathe so knowing which wire goes to which contact is what I have to determine. Rush (9011)
Roller bearing SB Model A experiment
I posted this to rec.crafs.metalworking, and I think it will interest some of you here. I have a SB Model A that spent its life in an R D department. I absolutely love the machine, and it works hard for me. It had a 51st Birthday last December, according to the factory. Here is the post: I use my old South Bend Model A in production, making an 8" disk that must be plane parallel to .002 or better, and require a good cosmetic finish. It is made from a proprietary alloy whose chips are ribbony at low speeds and flaky dust at high speeds. My best results are running at the highest speed the lathe has. This clears the chips from the tool so they do not smear and cold-weld to the finish. (It is a tin alloy). I use a specially made vacuum chuck that I have posted on the newsgroup in the past.  At the highest speeds, the bearings get hot, even when slacked, principally the bearing at the left side of the spindle, away from the chuck end. A friend found an old Model A head sitting in a junk pile, and since it is a dull cold Winter, I did some playing. The spindle and bearings on the old head were scored badly, so it was a no-loss experiment. I made a long boring bar, and put the head on the South Bend ways. Of course there was no question about being on center! I made a long boring bar out of a 1" stainless rod and supported the far end with a live center in the tailstock. There was not sufficient metal in the casting to allow me to do what I really wanted to do, bore it for opposed tapered roller bearings, so I settled for needle bearings. I turned the spindle so needle roller inner sleeves could be pressed onto it, and bored the housing for press fits. I used a radial needle thrust bearing at the outboard side, where the original phenolic thrust bearing and washer was mounted. The reverse tumbler needed a tiny bit of relieving to give me the extra .080. Set it up, and it ran fast and cool, but unfortunately there was too much of a harmonic vibration in the needle bearings to give me a good finish! Kind of a failure, but it only cost $50, and I learned a lot. When I put the original head back on, I did use the needle roller thrust bearing outboard, opposing and preloading the ball thrust bearing inboard that is the South Bend original...and THIS made a huge improvement!!! The bearings now run cool at the highest speed!!! Apparently all the friction was from the plain phenolic thrust bearing that was original! Actual measured speed with a strobe is 1440 RPM. I just made 36 pieces, and the headstock bearings never got more than 20oF above room temperature, and it paid me this huge dividend: I now have zero chatter, a perfect surface finish you can see the reflection of the tailstock in(!) and flatness center-to-edge of better than 0.001 !!! BTW, I am using RNL carbide inserts, which I diamond lap before use. You other South Bend Mod A owners might consider this! I got the roller thrust bearing at McMaster: The bearing and washer set only cost few bucks. Get one for a 1-3/8" shaft. When installing instead of setting the thrust bearing to the usual 0.001, set it for 2-5. tenths. I finally got rid of the bands caused by the in-and-out 0.001 excursions of the spindle! It has been a good experience. I got a good chance to study the wicks and shaft and bearing conditions of the original head. Fifty years old, and the journals look like mirrors except for one place where someone let the spindle bite the felt spring. (bah.) Have to say the people who first made the Model A sure knew what they were doing. Except for that phenolic thrust bearing. I have photos of the experiment as it went along, the boring, etc., if anyone is interested I will put them up on my page. The original bearings are nothing more than SB's The bearings run cool now, even when snugged against the shims. I guess all the heat was coming from the thrust bearing. I used the recommended method of a broomstick and a dial indicator. Still amazed at what good condition the bearings and journals are in. If someone told me that a hardened and ground shaft running in cast iron would last fifty years I would have laughed at them. Until I did a search and read about journal bearings. If they are properly designed and maintained, the only thing that seems to wear out is the oil. Amazing. OH! If anyone wants to try the needle thrust bearings from McMaster, they are Stock# 5909 K 39 ($2.73) for the bearing assembly, and 5909 K 53 (2 required) for the .031 hardened and ground washers.($1.08 each..haha) The existing lubrication ports in the spindle, that lubed the stock phenolic washer outboard trust bearing feeds oil to the needle bearing perfectly. (9223)
Jon, Postings like your "Roller Bearing SB Model A Experiment" make this group worthwhile! Jim (9225)
THANK YOU for posting this great success story! I'm going to try the bearing on my 10k, where I'm not happy with the fiber end thrust washer. You've made a great contribution! Frank (9239)
After installing the new McMaster Carr roller bearing on the headstock shaft spindle end (replacing the phenolic washer as suggested by John Rolfe) I finished up the rebuild of the gear linkage to the leadscrew and found a small problem. Because the new roller bearing is thicker than what was there, the reversing gears casting hits the headstock spindle split nut, by maybe ~0.050" in both forward and reverse gear positions. So, I removed the assembly, took off the two gears (and cleaned them) and filed off the offending metal from the casting (sorry, I'm no purist). Reassembled, the casting no longer binds with the split nut, and the gear train works nicely. John (9398)
I just replaced the fiber thrust washer on my 10k with the needle thrust bearing that John told us about. It makes a fantastic difference!!!! Considering that the fiber thrust washer costs around 15 bucks and the needle bearing is so much better it is a no-brainer. I put some grease on the bearing - is that OK or should it get oil? Frank (9433)
Great to hear it is working out for you, too! I assembled mine with that white superlube synthetic grease with Teflon, but it appears the little oil drilling in the spindle has been furnishing oil to it just fine. I cleaned the lathe thoroughly before installation, and just went down and looked and there is an oil film now under the bearing, just as there was with the old fiber/phenolic. Fifteen bucks from South Bend for the OEM? I have been running the lathe HARD the last month, both on the parts I manufacture (at 1440 RPM, standing in a $pray of chips!) and have been pushing it and the miller on a new project, a newer version of the machine I make http://www.gearloose.com/revx.html and so far the bearings continue to run cool and tight. I still have the original 2-3 tenths of thrust float that I set the needle thrust bearing to. That ball thrust OEM bearing opposing the new needle bearing is rugged enough to last fifty years, and does not mind a tiny preload at all. Now try some critical large-diameter facing and watch what happens. There are damned few "Upgrades" than can be had for a little over two dollars lately. So the needle roller bearing project was a failure, but the whole exercise was an education and did solve all the thrust issues but good. (9436)
On my 10k with 2-3 tenths thrust float, the inner (the one against the headstock casting) bearing thrust washer was rotating. I was concerned about it turning against the cast iron (should I have been or is this OK?) so I cut a thin gasket out of sheet gasket material and put it between the headstock and the bearing thrust washer. With a few tenths of float the inside thrust washer was still turning. I tightened up slowly until it just became zero or near-zero float; the washer doesn't turn now and the spindle still spins freely by hand. I figure there ought to be a few tenths resiliency in the gasket if needed. Is this OK? Is it OK if the thrust washer turns against the headstock casting? The bearing makes a nice sound!. (Whoopie, a new sound for my lathe!) I use a piece of flexible tygon tubing as a stethoscope and can hear the difference between the little roller bearings and sound made by the balls on the inner original thrust bearing. Frank PS I looked at your machine website - what does it do? (the machine, not the site!) (9440)
Hot brg.
Just getting my RKL running and the rear spindle is overheating. both sleeves turn freely on spindle when out of headstock. Have set up with plenty of clearance to run in. I have tried using mobile dte 26 and wye oil in the reservoirs with same results. Have put new felt in the wick springs but still getting hot enough at medium speed to slip belt. Release belt tension and spindle is hard to turn. Wait a minute and cools enough to spin free. I'm about out of ideas. Have adjusted bearing expanders in and out. No help. (9786)
Check out message 9223. There is a lot of good info and the pin thrust bearings might solve your problem. I installed one on my lathe and I am pleased with the mirror finish I now get when facing off. I haven't run the lathe hard enough to notice any cooler operation, but I expect that benefit, too. Glen (9789)
Check the clearance on that end. The shims that they use are brass and can easily be compressed. Clearance should be measured every time you tighten it back up. RC (9790)
Do you mean "way" oil? If so that might be your problem. Way oil is thick and sticky. You should use spindle oil. If you did use way oil, you might need to really flush well with kero and then use spindle oil. Frank (9791)
Heavy oil will cause a properly clearanced journal bearing to run a little hotter. You should check the clearances and use the correct oil. Your problem is more likely due to a tight journal or take-up nut. (The take-up nut is the easier one to adjust.) Remember, the journal clearance is adjusted by the shims under the bearing caps. The bearing expander screws should be ALWAYS be removed before loosening the cap and tightened after adjusting the shim thickness. The expander screws do not adjust the bearing clearance. Some helpful links about oil: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/southbendlathe/files/Techinfo/oiling.jpg   http://groups.yahoo.com/group/southbendlathe/files/Techinfo/visc.jpg (9793)
Hey pac,, still working on heated journal. switched from mobile dte 26 (vis 68) to mobile heavy(627,, vis 100) which is what i was told was spec. still hot. I'm suspecting a bad journal brg. even though I have both ends shimmed to about .002 to get it runnin. float set to appx. .005 to avoid heating rear journal. hope I don't have to tear spindle down to find my problem. can these be repaired if bad and reshimmed or purchase new brgs?? have no idea how this girl led her life so there could be problems on the brgs or spindle. (9806)
Glen, sorry I guess I don't know how to access#9223 or any #'ed message for that matter. stirboy (9807)
Bill The oil you are using is WAY to heavy. What you should be using and what I have used in mine for over 30 years is 20wt non detergent oil from pep boys. That heavy rear end gear oil you are using can not flow where it needs to go and you are going to burn up your spindle and head if you already haven't. The oil you were told to use is AW100 which is a straight SAE10 ND lube/hydraulic oil for machines. Pop everything open and flush with solvent and then put in SAE20 ND motor oil not gear lube or way lube. JWE (9808)
Bill, A good spindle oil to use is Mobil's Velocite No. 10 spindle oil. This has a SUS of 109 which is within specification for South Bend Lathes' spindle bearings. At this point, I would remove the spindle and check your bearings and journals. Clean and polish their surfaces and flush out the oil reservoirs. You may find out that you are missing the wick for the rear bearing. This could explain a lot. Bearings can be replaced if severely damaged but they are expensive. Usually, cleaning and polishing with fine crocus cloth is all that is required. Webb (9809)
Sorry, try this link. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/southbendlathe/message/9223  Glen (9811)
I may have to strip my spindle down to check brgs./and or polish things up to see if this will help cool things down. any ideas on spindle breakdown as far as difficulty or how to go about tuning things up once they are on the bench. are parts stacked on spindle with light press fits or tighter? this is a 1960model RKL with bronze sleeves. stirboy (9813)
I recommend that you measure the existing journal clearance (spindle play) before you take it apart. I have done spindle service on a 13", which is a similar design. Here are a few things I remember. Maybe some of this info will help. Maybe someone can point you to a service manual, too... Tearing down and inspecting the spindle for the first time will take ~30 - 60 min. I don't know if your machine has a plain or ball take-up bearing. The ball version spindle is easier to work with. The plain bearing type requires pulling the small gear from the end of the spindle. Remove the take-up nut, etc. before removing the spindle. Remove the bearing expander screws before loosening and removing the bearing caps. I held the belt out of the way with a piece of wire bent into a bridge. The spindle should be ready to come out of the machine. Note that there are brass oiler tubes sticking up out of the bottom of the headstock casting. They align with holes in the bronze bearing shells. If you pick the spindle up and then decide that you need to set it back down in the bores, make sure the shells are aligned with the tubes. The small bearing shell (and thrust bearing and cone pulley) slide off of the spindle. The bull gear is pressed on to the spindle. Mine was not a heavy fit, but the 13" parts were a bit large for my little arbor press. The big bearing shell slides off the spindle. If your spindle looks a bit less than pretty, you can get the spindle superfinished (micropolished) for ~$20 at most automotive machine shops (the better polishing equipment cuts flooded with coolant). Enjoy. info link about superfinishing: http://www.micropolishing.com (9819)
Anyone have experience with babbitt bearings in an application like this? If the phosphor bronze shells (or iron casting on the light lathes) were really wiped out, would relining with maybe .020" of tin babbit make sense? (9820)
My experience with babbit is not very encouraging. We had a gut that specialized in it redo the shaft and segments for one of our grinders. Cost a lot and failed after less than an hour break in. Got some aluminum bronze from McMaster-Carr and machined two new sets of segments on my South Bend and success. That grinder runs 12 to 16 hours a day 5 days a week with no problems. Do not use cast babbit in a load bearing area please. JWE (9824)
My experience with cast babbit is just the opposite. I maintained bascule bridges with cast babbit bearings. They are HEAVY and rotated on only 2 trunnion bearings. The gear train shafts were also cast babbit. I watched them being replaced on 2 of my bridges in the late 60s and the work was successful. The 1917 vintage bridges lasted until the late 80s. The key is knowing how to cast them. There was a thread recently about that but can't remember where or when. Don't forget that 100 years ago babbit was the bearing material of choice. Just because we have forgotten how to handle it doesn't mean it isn't a viable alternative. Too bad that most of the machinists who knew how to do it are probably dead by now. Dave (9826)
Roller bearings
Can some one tell me the dimensions of the roller bearing for thrust on a 9 inch Southy made in 1941? I would like to do mine and would rather not take it apart to measure it. I had made this same modification about 15 years ago on an old 16 inch lathe that I had. I put it at the headstock instead of the tailstock end and it took up the thrust perfectly. Max (9792)
Large spindle bearing: 1 13/16" dia. x 2 1/4" long Small spindle bearing: 1 3/8" dia. x 1 3/8" long source: http://www.southbendlathe.com/workshop/9wspecs.htm You should be able to measure the OD and thickness of the ball thrust bearing without disassembling the headstock. (9794)
Spindle bearing Clearance
Wow. Your spindle deflection is .0001" with plain bearings. (?!) Have you measured in both the vertical and horizontal directions? Do you have the 8-speed or the 16-speed 9" lathe, and do the bearings ever run hot at the highest speeds? (10189)
I am looking closer at the belts now. To answer your question, I put a mandrel between centers (according to DIN 8605) and tested for deflection on the vertical and horizontal using a B S .0001 dial indicator. I have the roller bearing set to allow approx .00015" movement in and out (I don't like to run this too tight). As for the bearings, I am not running them very tight. This is a 16-speed lathe with a top speed over 1,100RPM. Although I rarely use anything over 400RPM, I have run it at full speed with no indication of over-heating. SB deserves credit for doing a great job with their bearings! For what it's worth, my brand-new Emco Super11 CD which is independently toolroom certified has slightly more deflection then my 1948 SouthBend 9A. It show's that there is absolutely nothing compromising about using good plain bearings ;-) Skip (10193)
My recent bearing problems
I was working in the shop this evening, experimenting with a bit of metal spinning, on my 9" A model running it about 900 rpm. I was applying a moderate load when the spindle stopped, and the poly-v belt slipped. BAD NEWS!! I stopped what I was doing, and disassembled the spindle and looked at the bearings. The front spindle bearing had picked up some material from the housing, and welded it to the shaft. This scored the bearing housing for about 1/4" in from the front face. I polished the "welded" material from the shaft, and there appears to be no damage to it. The housing is another story. I carefully scraped the built up material off the bearing and gently honed the surface as smooth as I could. (only in the small area near the damage not the whole bore) I reassembled the headstock and the spindle runs fine, but I'm worried about doing more damage to the machine. Can anyone give me some advise on how I should proceed from here? Pete (12090)
I'm no expert on SB lathes but I've recently had a bit of scored spindle/bearing trouble myself. My 1928 9" SBL has bronze bushings for bearings. Does your lathe have bronze inserts or is it just plain cast iron? I ask about the cast iron thing because somewhere I read that some headstock spindles rode in cast iron. Maybe I read it wrong?? Here's what I did and it MIGHT help you. Your spindle is probably not running parallel to the ways so here's my poor boys approach to fixing the problem. I had the spindle plunge ground at a real machine shop. After that it was hard chrome plated with a thick layer of plating added to only the bearing surfaces. The spindle plated surfaces were ground then lapped or microfinished. (3M makes microfinishing film which is not to be confused with 2000 grit+ sandpaper) I asked for a 8 - 16 microinch finish on the chromed journals. (Finish is like that on a piston pin) If you take the headstock totally apart you'll see a machined flat across the back side. (At least on mine) Using my Mill/Drill and a 4"boring head I'm able to align bore the headstock bearings while assembled with shims. The best thing of course would be to have it align bored in something like a larger lathe or horizontal mill that way you could keep the bottom of the headstock planted. As a check for perpendicularity I used a right angle block and a 1/2" piece of drill rod in the vee way of the headstock. If you have a headstock without bronze bushings you'll need to either build up the spindle OD quite a bit or have both the spindle and headstock selected areas plated. Jim (12093)
Peter Not seeing the parts myself, and my experience with bushings and bearings in general, it sounds to me like the bushing run dry and galded. Before running it much I would check the oiling passages to ensure that the oil is getting to the bushing. If the passage is clogged up, you may think it is fine because you may be adding oil, but the oil could be seeping out another place before getting to the bushing. It would be very hard for metal/gunk to enter the bushing area unless they were worn so bad that you would have noticed slop way before this happened Once the oil is proved to be getting to the bushing/bearing, It probably would not hurt much to run it except for what wear happened running it dry, there probably will be some play now. The other risk you run now is if the bushing/bearing is now bad enough, it could eventually ruin the spindle surface, so installing new bushing as quickly as possible is a must. Clint (12094)
Thrust Bearing Mod On Compound Screw?
Has anyone on the group either looked at or successfully modified a Compound Screw Assembly to have Thrust Bearings similar to the update of Thrust Bearings on the later model SB Cross Feed Screw? Ron (12764)
Ron, I added ball thrust bearings to my cross slide using MSC part number 03548591. There are 3/8 ID 11/16 OD x 9/32 thick. They cost about 5 bucks each and have hardened washers included. These are the smallest OD 3/8 inch ID parts I have found. They are too big to fit through the compound casting hole which is just under 1/2 inch. They may work on your 13" compound. Have a look on the MSC web site and search on thrust bearings. Glen (12765)
Ron If you can't find a thrust bearing small enough to go through the compound casting hole try using a pair of dry bearing material coated washers. Dry bearing material e.g. Glacier DU is a PTFE "stuff" mixture so such thrust pairs are very slippery. You run them at zero clearance with a tiny pre load and low speed friction is pretty much the same as roller or ball thrust races. Size for size load carrying capacity is greater. Alternatively, as you are going to have to modify the bushing assembly anyway (or, better, make a new one) you could arrange things so that the thrust stays inside the slide assembly instead of coming out with the bushing unit. It should be possible to arrange a static thrust face mount for the bearing to push against by either extending the bushing assembly so that projects through the casting or by shortening it and pushing in a T shape bush. Assembly may be a bit of a baffle and you will have to work out the various lengths involved in component modification rather carefully but there ought to be room. If I were to do the job I'd bore out the casting hole to make room for the bearing and change the bushing assembly to a two bolt fixing like a Boxford. Make a new unit or extend the thread back and use a screw on flange? I think this is the easiest approach. (After all fitting a complete Boxford dial assembly is known to be the easiest way of getting roller thrusts on a 9" cross slide.) Clive (12770)
10in heavy spindle bearing problem
I bought a 10in heavy in excellent condition but I'm having a problem with chuck spindle play. Basically there is up and down play (the chuck jumps up and down under certain machining conditions) yet ther is no back and forth play. If I tighten the bearing caps I can hear the motor start to strain. I assume the bearings have worn unevenly over the years (1940 vintage). I have had a quote for new bearings but it is over twice the price I paid for the whole lathe. Any ideas how I could tackle this problem myself? (13638)
Jon, is it actually the spindle bushing or the chuck loose on backplate? Caps need to be shimmed to speck and I like to run magnetic surface temp. gauges on them till ya know what ya got. The right oil is a must. iso vg 100..cutting the shims is tricky if ya don't have all the proper tools. stirboy (13639)
There has been a lot of discussion on the topic of bearing adjustment from time-to-time and there should be adjustment procedures in the files section in SouthBendLathePix. It will also tell you how to check your bearings for excessive play. Bearing caps should be tight. If your spindle is binding when you tighten down on your caps, there is something wrong. Typically, you are missing a shim (or shims) that fit between the bearing cap and the headstock. Another possible cause could be a poor fit of the chuck to the spindle. This usually shows up as inconsistent chuck runout (from mounting-to-mounting) but could cause the chuck to shift slightly when taking a heavy cut. Webb (13641)
I haven't stripped both bearing assemblies down yet but the problem is rather strange. If I remove the shims and VERY gently start to tighten the bearing caps I can feel the spindle start to bind by trying to turn it buy hand. Yet, even though the bearings are starting to bind I can still feel up and down play in the spindle. When I first removed the bearing caps they were shimmed with old Coke cans, suggesting the previous owner rushed the job. I'll strip the whole assembly down a take some accurate readings to see if I can detect un even wear. Just out of interest what range of shim thicknesses should I have to hand when reassembling? Jon (13642)
I am going thru a similar process with my 1955 Hvy 10. I removed the bearing caps and discovered that the previous owners had not oiled/adjusted the bearings properly and the spindle bearing surfaces needed polishing. The bearings needed to be replaced. I think possibly your bearings are different. Mine are bronze. I have been trying to machine new bearings and this has been a learning process for me. I have tried various polishing techniques with several failures. I was unable to make lapping work to my satisfaction. I finally have a completed bearing to try. Working with bronze to close tolerances has been a challenge for me. I am concerned that the bearing surfaces may have embedded grit that will destroy the spindle surfaces even though the bearing surfaces are bright and very smooth. If another member has made spindle bearings I would be interest in knowing how the final polish was accomplished. Joe (13643)
Joe, soft bronze bearings certainly do get imbedded with abrasive. The spindle journal areas, hard steel, can be abrasive polished. After machining, bearings are usually scraped in to fit. The scraper is a triangular hardened steel blade in a file handle made for this purpose. You can make one from an old 3 corner file, 1/2" should work, by grinding all sides flat on a bench grinder. The idea is to taper it almost to a point and have the hollow between corners determined by the wheel radius. Holding the blade almost flat in the bearing bore, take light scrapings all around and then blue (machinists bluing) the journal and rub slightly to see what areas need more attention. I rebuilt a 9C for a friend 15 years ago. Still going strong. RichD (13645)
Rich, I have a scraper such as you described. Will hone it and give it a try. I tried lapping with non-embedding compound for brass/bronze but just wore down the lap without attaining the finish I wanted. (13649)
Inspecting the spindle bearings?
I have been going through a used heavy ten that I just got. Thanks for all the advice so far. My new question concerns the spindle bearings. I have new spindle wicks that I plan to install, but I was wondering if it would be worthwhile to pull the spindle bearings while I have everything else apart and inspect them. Any thoughts on this? I do not have a puller or a press, so I don't know if I would be able to do it anyway. Would it be better to just replace the wicks and leave the bearings alone? Right now, the bearings seem to run smooth, although I haven't tested the play with an indicator. After 15 minutes of running they do warm up to 85 degrees or so, but they didn't get hot. I've only run the machine long enough to make a few test cuts, so I don't have much history to go on. I'm also contemplating cleaning up the QC gearbox, but I don't know if that is necessary either. It works fine, it's just dirty. For what it's worth, I just finished cleaning and re-wicking the apron and carriage. Zach (13859)
There is a document at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SouthBendLathePix/files/ that has a step by step instructions about inspecting the bearings. Mike (13860)
The spindle instructions in the manual basically say 'take apart the spindle so you can inspect them'. I'm in the same boat Zach's in. I'm getting to the point in my Heavy 10 project where I will be pulling the spindle and cleaning it up. But like Zach, I also do not have a hydraulic press to take apart the spindle to actually inspect the bearings. If the bearings are thoroughly clean, and the spindle can be installed with the correct clearances, is it still worth the trouble to press apart the spindle to inspect the bearings? Jeff (13861)
Spindle Bearing Problem
I just removed the spindle on my heavy 10 and discovered, to my dismay, that a preveous operator had attempted to remove the bearing caps without removing the expander screws first. He pulled the expander through the bearing, then proceeded to replace the bearing caps with the expander ON TOP of the bearing!! This of course destroyed the expander and crushed/dented/deformed the top of the bearing. The rear bearing was not seriously damage, but the front bearing now has detectable high spots on the inside of the bearing where the expander was crushed down on top of it. So now I seek you advice on the following questions. 1. Assuming a normal bearing (not my dented one), how much of the bearing usually shows wear? I assume that 100% contact area is never achieved, but I wonder if you could give you opinion as to what is "normal". I ask because some areas of my bearing have clearly made very little contact with the spindle and still show the original machined surface. I have no way of knowing if this is typical or if it is a result of damage to the bearing. 2. How do I go about correcting my problem? Should I just get/make a new expander and use the bearing as is? Should I use a Dremel tool to grind down the high spots? Should I try and find a good used bearing to replace it with? Zach (13922)
If you use a Dremmel, I would suggest using it with a high-speed round or flame-shaped HSS burr and not a grinding stone. I Dremmel-ed one of my bearings to enlarge the oil-return hole which was partially covered by the bearing and used the tapered HSS tip. that way you will not get any carborundum in your bearing system. Also, the bronze does not like to machine easy with the Dremmel. Make sure you have good hand support - "tripod" your hand - that is, hold the tool with both hands with palms far apart and resting on a hard surface. Go very slow. It is tough and does not come of in chips - rather in strings and lumps. Frank (13925)
I would suggest you use a 3 sided scraper. Bronze scrapes with a smooth finish remaining. Enco has the scrapers for about $4.00. You need about an hour of stoning time to get the scraper sharp and smooth. I have a similar problem with my Heavy 10. I had my spindle polished and am trying to make new bearings. For me machining bronze is tricky. I have had several failures but finally think I have taught myself what works. You can get non embedding lapping compound from McMaster-Carr for about $20.00. Joe (13932)
As an alternative method try scraping. Grind down a large triangular file and scrape it with the edges, use a cutting motion and go slowly checking the fit often. JP (13949)
Really you want to minimize the amount of metal you take off as the bearings are size internally, externally and on the expander slots. I don't know how badly deformed your bearings are but there isn't that much spare room so they probably are not too far our of round to be massaged back into something approaching the correct shape. The best way would be to make or have made a taper mandrel starting a bit smaller than the current size of the bearing and ending in a parallel portion a couple of thou bigger than the spindle diameter. Taper bit wants to be about 4 times the bearing length. Coat the taper with blue and work the bearing straight up it. Watch the marks on the blue and carefully scrape out any sharp edges. When you have got it onto the parallel part clamp it down with 3 or 4 worm drive hose clips, do this with the clips at several different radial positions. Scrape out any sharp edges and repeat. Hopefully you should end up with pretty even blue coverage on the bearing. When you are satisfied try it on the spindle, if all seems OK do a test assembly, very carefully and well lubricated without the expander. If all seems fine trim out any sharp edges in the expander slot, polish off any marks on the outside and check for fit with the spindle out and bearing loose. I'd expect you to be left with about 60 to 70% side engagement between expander and slot, not perfect but good enough for home use. I'd expect the actual load carrying area of the bearing to be down by a similar amount but again it should be good enough. I've used this taper technique, it works but can be hard on the nerves. The hose clamp massage approach will also work direct on the spindle but you would need to be much more careful with the sharp edges. Clive (13973)
After further inspecting the bearing I determined the high spots to were isolate to the area right beside the split in the bearing. To correct this I purchase a piece of pipe the approximate diameter of the spindle. I them taped a piece of 400 grit wet sand paper to the pipe and used that to knock off the high spots. This is certainly not the most accurate way of doing it, but it seems to be work fine for my purposes. After putting it back together the spindle spins with slightly less friction that before. After a couple hours of run it I will check the bearing adjustment. Note that I used sand paper and not emery cloth. The larger grains of the sand paper do not become imbedded as easily. Zach (13975)
I've had this same problem with all different sorts of bearings I've tried out. I'm not that familiar with the engineering of bearing lubrication, but I do know that continuous heavy loads on the spindle or bearings it will be wise to keep it well lubricated... and the associated passages, reservoirs, valleys clear.. and to use the proper weight / viscosity of lubricants. Personally I like the more expensive higher quality ones when it comes to that. I will not trust cheap stuff.. and the same with bearings. Some bearings are not very expensive others are really too expensive.. I have run into a few that I've had to take apart and rebuild in order to get them to work well. There are some different types of the same bearing, as I have noticed. Automotive spindle bearings, those Timiken and Roller type, and Industrial machinery bearings were made to be able to stand temperature, wear, and high stress.. depending on the application. Actually, I have found you CAN 'massage' out the indifferences in fits in certain cases.. and you can try it with a little Prussian bluing and some high grit emery or sandpaper. Greg (13982)
Greg, I believe the field of lubrication is called tribology; don't ask me why. I am fascinated by the things I have learned as a lurker on this group. The plain bearings on the old SouthBends were really optimum for the use technology they had at the time; i.e. slow speeds, low cost, high (not ultra) precision long life. They still make sense for those conditions ( my Model A spindle lasted 60 years, and if I get the ambition to reassemble it, another 60, God Willing.) Mike (13988)
I group. The use Actually tribology is the science that looks at "how things rub together". If you wanted to build a better clutch then you use tribology. I suppose that if you want to minimize as well as maximize friction it is still covered and in that sense lubrication can be looked at as a branch of tribology. However the aspect of making things less slippery is an important aspect. Jim B. (13990)
Well you know.. I just have to ask about Tribology.. LoL. I too am fasicnated at things I learn every day here. And, yes according to my latest dict-o-matic tribology is the study of friction (how things rub together). Well, I'm not an expert.. but call me that anything I may say make half decent sense LoL. I'm still on the way to finishing my SB project.. someone I dealt with on Ebay helped me out a little there. I've found that Plain bearings are pretty reliable if used in a really adequate proper condition.. and they really don't wear much out of it's life unless someone does the worst things one can do to a bearing.. let alone to the rest of the machine(s). Well, anyhow.. I'd just put an extra $0.03 in the change jar of this box. (13993)
Cast iron spindle bearings?
The spindle bearings for the 9" Model C SB lathe I'm acquiring has what looks like segmented cast iron spindle bearings. I've never seen bearings like that.. can anyone enlighten me? In addition, this lathe is missing the Horizontal Drive Unit and could use a new halfnut. Does anyone have these parts for sale or direct me to a sources that does. I might try and adapt a 10 " qc box to this lathe.. looks like it would fit. I would then need a different apron and lead screw. Anybody try this? (14768)
There is a good description of the integral cast iron bearing on the SBL website. They are unique. RC (14770)
It looks bad, bearings
Well, heres some pics of my cast iron bearings. IT looks very bad, explains why the scuffing on the spindle. Tell me the truth, I'm a man, is it terminal? When I bought the lathe few days ago, it was smooth, I can probably still use it as is, run it into the ground, then get a new headstock I guess. Also, I couldn't find the shims, because they were painted over, but the Flash on my camera brought them out I think, Are those the shims? also need a new rear oiler it looks like. (15760)
Looks like that rear bearing is pretty well shot! I have not replaced bearings in one yet so maybe some others can help in how to do that. It maybe a good option for you to find another headstock on ebay or from one of the members here that has one Randy more than likely has one I know that I have seen at least two recently up for bids on ebay and buy it now options From the pix you showed yesterday, the spindle still looks usable, if you plan on fitting bearings, you can machine the spindle to clean it up for a fresh surface and fit the bushings to match If you get another HS, then you could rebuild the existing one in your spare time Keep us posted as to which options you go with. Clint (15761)
Clint, rear bearing felt was below the spindle, bad spring it looks like. I also wonder if the previous owners used motor oil for the spindles... Well, I knocked out the shim, took 1 layer off, now I have way too much gap. I suppose I could buy some feeler gauges, and make shims from them? replaced that. or from one and buy it if you up for a your spare bearings. bad, probably headstock but shims? (15763)
Bill feeler gauges or shim stock from MSC, etc. I like using feeler gauges because they come cheap! and I am CHEAP, (g) It kind of looks like the spindle could have been run dry? Also it looks like somehow some metal shavings were in there? or it looked that way in the pix. Clint (15765)
Brass shim stock is a better choice. If it rubs the spindle it won't do the damage that stainless shim stock could. JP (15767)
Bill- the pics you posted came up a little fuzzy for me. metals sometimes do not photo well. I agree that the bearings might look good in the pics that you posted, but I think its important that you objectively asses the situation before you start down the path of changing bearings, trying to find a headstock, etc. you have to look/feel to determine how bad it is. 1. you said that the spindle seemed fine before you took it apart. Was it? did you check deflection with a bar like the maintenance manual. did it run quiet or did make nose, feel hot, etc.... 2. personally, I would be less concerned about radial scoring as I would be about any longitudinal scoring. How does the spindle look? also, I would judge the percentage of good bearing vs scored bearing. if the half of the rear bearing and spindle are ok, and the back half is shot, you still have a bearing supporting the spindle. granted, it's half of the original, but it could be quite serviceable. obviously the longevity of that bearing is obviously shortened but its still there. Remember, what damage is done is done. the real proof is going to be how the machine cuts. it may not LOOK good, but until you have physical evidence that it is bad then don't loose sleep over it. I am not saying that it is ok, but i am also saying that its also not a catastrophic loss either. too many people have automatically assumed that because of a minor defect they have to spend $$$$ to make it perfect again. keep in mind that no matter how well you maintain it, parts are going to wear over a lifetime of use/abuse. if it was me, I would first see how it ran and cut. if it was not right, then I would look into my options. I would rather trust half an original bearing over the risk of boring and sleeving a new bearing and ground spindle. there are too many operations there to make mistakes on. dennis (15768)
Yes those are the shims. It looks like you need new Wicks. There are large areas of your journal which are in good condition. Clean up the journal. Be sure you don't have any cast iron pieces projecting. Be sure that there is no cast iron welded to the spindle. (Its not THAT bad). Clean out the oil wells. Do a good job here. Replace the new wicks. Hold them down with small rods through the holes above the filler. Install the spindle. Don't bother with the pulley or bull gear. Tighten the journals. Check the play. If needed adjust. The shims are laminated they peal off. Jim B. (15776)
I removed 1 layer, now have too much gap, going to use feeler gauge for shim. I tightened the cap screws to a point where there is no play, and no binding. The grooves in the bearings are not longitudinal, so that is good. I am going to replace the wicks, flush out the headstock, get all impurities out of there, oil like crazy with spindle oil, and just use it. As a side note, I noticed the previous owner installed a zero backlash halfnut on the cross feed, very smooth and nice. (15780)
Bill Good deal then, I think you will be fine, also once you get it running and any play adjusted, after running a while then feel the HS at each bearing area, this should feel warm but not hot if hot you may need to loosen just a tad till it just runs warm Probably good that you tore things down this gave you a chance to clean things up and making sure it is oiling properly Clint IT looks bad, tell me like it is, bearings. (15785)
Bill, I've been out-of-town for a while and I've just caught-up with the backlog of posts. You mentioned that you removed 1 layer of shim and the gap was too much. Are you referring to the gap between the bearing cap and the main casting? Bearing clearance or "play" is measure with the spindle in place and the caps tightened down. Before you go further, your pictures seem to convey to me that you are down to the aluminum spacer shim that was originally under the laminate shims. Is this the "layer" you removed? Is so, this is going to be too much. All of the 9 inch and 10K lathes I have worked on came with an aluminum spacer shim and a laminate shim pack on top of that. It looked like you are missing the laminate shim pack. If this is the case, then you will need to replace the solid aluminum shim with a laminated shim pack. I don't know this for a fact but I always assumed that the solid aluminum shims were there so that when the headstock and spindle had worn down and the laminate shims were all removed, the user could remove the solid shims and replace them with another laminate shim pack and extend the life of the headstock. Your plan to use individual shim will work but I find trying to cut a bunch of shims and keep them completely flat hard to do. As an alternative, you could buy laminate shim stock from SBL or from a supply house (like McMaster-Carr). Webb (15898)
When I first posted, I removed the veneered shims from the aluminum one. I didn't get it that the small shim could be peeled at first. The shims were so bent and crumpled out of shape that it made it hard to see it. Took an exacto blade and noticed that I could peel the small one. Anyhow, I'm going to make new shims out of brass. Going to make them thick enough that some feeler gauges will only be needed to fine tune it. I figure its lot cheaper than going thru McMaster or sbl. Also a fun little project. I had an idea, I'm going to take a jewelers saw blade for cutting metal, and mount it to my scroll saw to cut the new shims. The blades are not meant for it, but it should work. (15901)
Correct position of 10K headstock brg?
There is a groove machined into the iron headstock casting. Your bronze bearing mustn't abut it. The bronze bearings for the 10k are so oversize that you can afford to remove some of the surface. I tried to enlarge the oil return hole (using a Dremel with a steel burr NOT a stone) but that did not help either. Anyway, your bearing should NOT be flush with the edge of the headstock casting and the groove must be free. If necessary take out the bronze sleeve and shorten it and put in a new oil hole. As I said, I had this exact problem. Have you tried the very thin gasket between the inner thrust plate and the headstock? Any large machine supply co has spindle oil. I am in my office now so don't have it in front of me, but I think I use Mobil Vactra brand. I buy it from MSC or from Enco when they have free shipping! Try the gasket - that might do it Frank (18432)
 Carson: Canadian Supplier for oil and other industrial items is KBC Tools and Machinery. 1-800-668-5616 or 1-888-522-8665. They have offices in Vancouver. Spindle oils listed are ISO 10,15,22 and 32. Ron (18433)
Carson, Those little grooves (dovetail shaped) are to catch the spindle oil and channel it down to a return channel drilled back to the oil reservoir under the springy felt wicks. Make sure the 4 grooves and the 4 channels are clear. Flush with kerosene or solvent and a toothbrush and Q-tips. If you are losing oil from the ends of the bearings, then this might solve your problem. One of mine was blocked with 'spooge'. Otherwise, fill the reservoirs full of kerosene, look for where it leaks out, and address that issue. There might be other causes that I don't know about. I just did this on my 10K. Dean (18434)
Spindle bearing adjustment
I am putting my headstock back together and need some help on the procedure of setting the headstock bearings? I went to the faq's but find that the scans, for me, are unreadable. Can someone can tell me how it is done, or if you readable drawings, it would be very helpful. Ed (18441)
What do you mean by un-readable? if your browser is loading them but you are not seeing them, are you scrolling up-down side to side? They are jpg's so just about anything will handle them. You may want to save them locally too. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/southbendlathe/files/Techinfo/Bearing_Adjustment/ dennis (18442)
Ed- sorry, my bad. It seems that only heavy10 and up is in there. regardless, the procedure is similar. You will have laminated shims to deal with. Anyone have the 9"/10K" info to put in the files section? dennis (18443)
I went brain dead and forgot that the jpg's read a lot better if you print them out. "SPINDLE ADJUSTED, ON TO THE NEXT STEP. Ed (18450)
Adjusting My Large Spindle Bearing
I did a movement test on my spindle the other day and found it to be over.010" . I checked out the files section and it gives a great blow by blow way to work in this area but do I have to totally remove the spindle to just try and snug up the large bearing? My intuition is to just follow the directions to the point I can remove some of the shims, reassemble and retest. Am I wrong in my thinking? If I have to do a total teardown I should try to get the felts and everything ahead of time. I'm handy with machinery but don't want to hurt this old beauty. I should mention for other newbies how I noticed the problem in the first place. I was parting off a piece of steel ( my famous first thread cutting operation) and noticed something rather odd. As the cutter got down to almost the center of the cut the work seemed to jump a tiny amount. At first I thought it was my eyes or my meds .It wasn't though. The work could move so much the cutoff tool could not get to the center to cut.The work would just ride up over the carefully set cutter and leave me a "stem" that defied cutting. I'm sure this would have raised flags with the folks that have some experience but to me it didn't click in for a few days of thought. Anyway I contacted the previous owner and he said he had rebuilt the bearing but may have left it a bit loose .I can see a stack of shims that can be removed a few at a time under the cap so I'm thinking to remove just a few thou at a time (from both sides) and recheck. How am I doing with the plan so far ? I still love my baby even though she isn't as perfect as I first thought. It's just like a marriage, you don't notice the flaws until you've been together for a while :-) Thanks for any advice. I need some input to get up the nerve to do the job later today, health permitting and all. Tom (18717)
.010 is a lot of movement. I hope your bearings aren't that worn. Yes take shims out until the play goes away. You don't have to take the spindle out. I can wiggle my spindle about .0009. That is almost to tight because at high speed it starts to get a little warm and can hear the motor working harder. I need to add a .001 shim just on one side. In your case you are going to have to remove a lot on both sides at first. Then add or take out one at a time from one side then the other (alternate the sides) to get the right play. If you run out of shims before you get within the tolerance then you got a big expense a head of you. Hope this helps. Gary (18718)
I've been all through this. The Allen head screws on the bridge across the bearings (bearing caps), are bearing expanders. Check these out first. REMEMBER, these are spreaders so backing them out (unscrewing them counterclockwise) tightens the fit on the spindle shaft, and tightening them (screwing them in clockwise) will loosen the fit between the bearing and the spindle. This is not obvious unless you have had it all apart and have seen how it works first hand. I would try first to adjust the spindle bearings. Loosen the belt to get all tension off the spindle. Loosen both front and back bearings by screwing the adjustment screws clockwise. Adjust the front bearing first. Turn the adjustment screws counterclockwise until the spindle begins to seize. Than back it off a little by turning it clockwise just enough to free it up. Then do the same with the rear bearing. If this doesn't work, then you can go to playing with the shims. Perk (18720)
And if the bearing caps need to come off for any reason those expander screws must be *removed* first. (18724)
Tom, Its a simple and straight forward process so don't sweat it. You need a repeatable dial indicator and some patience. Do both bearings while you are at it, one at a time. Don't take out .01 in shims to remove .01 in play. Take out half or less of what you think you need and recheck it. Do it a number of times until you get it to .001 Remember to remove the screws from the expander before removing the bearing cap and installing and tightening them back up before rechecking it with the lift test. Save the shims you remove and remember which spot they came out of in case you have to put them back in. JP (18727)
It seems to me that adjusting the "tightness" of the bearing sleeve won't help with the spindle having movement up and down. I'm not a pro at this but have been around bearings a lot in my career and I think that the bearing cap itself probably need to be lowered (remove shims) to stop the movement then adjust the expanders if need be to get a free turning shaft. I could be way wrong here as I have never had my spindle bearings apart but this is how I think it should work. JP suggested removing shims first like I thought. Anyone else have any experience with this operation? I'm going to try it out today if I can. Tom (18741)
JP, I follow your tip but am stumped by the term "repeatable dial indicator" I have several indicators but don't know what you mean by repeatable. Could someone tell me what it means? I have to learn something new and this will do just fine for today. Tom (18742)
Tom, He just means that the same measurement made twice will give the same result. I have a Logan Actuator coffee mug that advises "measure twice, cut once". Glen (18743)
Loosen expander screws. Torque cast-iron top to specs. Measure u-down- spindle movement. Add or remove shims as needed, but ALWAYS TORQUE TO SPECS. When you get very close you make final adjustment with expanders but remember that there is very little room to move the bearing so you need to get close with shims at the proper torque. Do not try to get the proper movement by using greater or lesser torque. Frank (18745)
A fairly good one, one that repeats the same measurement each time you measure the same thing. I didn't want to use the term 'good indicator' because I didn't want you to think you have to go out and buy a very expensive one. JP (18746)
Frank, What is the torque spec? Somewhere I heard 'fairly tight'; what number does that equal? I would guess 40 ft-lb on the cap screws being that they are 3/8 UNC and they go into cast iron. Do you have an official number? JP (18747)
That's right Tom, the shims lower the caps but the expanders move the bearing tightly into the headstock bore. The bearing springs closed on the spindle. You won't get an accurate reading when you measure unless the screws on them are tightened up. There is an adjustment for the thrust bearing. It is a threaded shaft collar and it is near the rear bearing. Loosen the screw on this and loosen it on the spindle about 1 or 2 turns. This makes working on the rear bearing easier. It is a repetitive process. Bring your front bearing in close to spec, then adjust the rear bearing and then check and adjust the front one if needed. To adjust the thrust bearing back up, first oil it and then tighten the shaft collar until you begin to feel a change in drag when rotating the spindle by hand. Then loosen it 3/8 inch or about 10 degrees. Then tighten up the locking screw. JP (18748)
Did I miss a torque spec for the bearing caps on the heavy 10? If so would someone repeat it? Paul (18749)
I have learned what you mean. Tom (18750)
Tom Are you getting your bearings back into adjustment? I am just curious if you got it down to with in specs. I love this board. So much info here. I learned a lot from here and by doing things on my heavy 10. Word of caution!!! don't tighten the little screws to the expander to much! I broke the lip right off of my smaller one. Just snug them up. If the spindle won't turn with them snug up then you will have to take shims out. They are $85 + shipping from Leblond. I made a temporary one for mine. Still would like to find a good use one of the original kind to put back in. Gary (18751)
Gary, I haven't been feeling well enough to try yet today. I will get dressed to go out and get sick, and then have to get undressed again g unusual day for me. I am still going to give it a try maybe tonight g guess you can see why it's such a big deal for me to even get my first threading operation actually finished g and it's so relaxing once I actually get going on a project g certainly post what ever happens. Tom (18752)
There, Someone was asking for the torque for the spindle bearing caps. To be honest, I don't know what SBL recommends. I have never seen a spec. for it. I do have a pamphlet on torque and the proper use of torque wrenches and contained therein, is a "General Torque Specification Chart." The chart covers various bolt diameters and grades. For example, a 3/8" bolt: Grades 1 2 - 15 Ft. Lbs.; Grade 5 - 25 Ft. Lbs.; Grade 6 - 34 Ft. Lbs.; Grade 8 - 37 Ft. Lbs. I think the bolts on the spindle bearing caps are 3/8" Grade 5. That would make the torque 25 Ft. Lbs. Please correct me if someone has more specific information on this. Webb (18759)
They may be 7/16 and they are alloy cap screws which are stronger than grade 8. They seem to like 5/16 and 7/16 a whole lot. JP (18763)
A couple of points here: 1Where did you say these expander screws are? 2.My SBL has a split cap. Getting the shims out can be difficult. Any tips for doing this? 3.With all the talk about adjusting, not one word has been said about running the headstock up to running temp. prior to adjusting. Is this not important as heat will cause the bearings to expand? 4.If anyone is looking for industrial grade 55gal. drums, go to a floor tile store. They have really good drums of very heavy poly. The drums will contain a latex glue called Caralastic. Cut the top off the drum and allow the leftover glue to harden (the glue has an odor!). Then peel it off in large sheets. Clean as you see fit. I use mine to collect rainwater. They can had for $5 or even nothing since they are non- returnable. Ron (18765)
I respectfully disagree. If the spindle doesn't turn with the expanders snugged up then you must ADD shims, not remove them! Frank (18766)
I don't know the specs on the heavy ten, but on my 10k the torque, according to Randy at SB, is 30 foot-pounds. so adjust accordingly. Frank (18769)
 ++ You must have a 9 or 10K. In these lathes you have to dig out the shims, ruining them and you have to put in new ones. ++ ++++heat will cause bearing to expand; surrounding cast iron expands, the bearing ID therefore does not get smaller. SB specs do not mention making the adjustment whilst hot and I assume they mean to do it when everything is at room temp. ++++++++ Garden-supply centers often stock 55 gal plastic drums, sort of rust-colored, that were used to ship olives from Italy to the US. they cannot be reused for food. They have a screw-on top which is convenient. My cellar does not have a drain so I use one of these to catch the water from my shop sink and pump it out to the waste line with a sump pump. These are nice barrels - they have a plastic grate on the bottom, raised about an inch off the bottom - this lets the crap fall down and it can be removed latter. My local garden center also sells them with a plastic spigot at the bottom for draining (use them for catching rainwater) Frank (18771)
Frank you are right. You have to add shims to let the spindle turn. I knew that but my brain must of been some where else at that second I was typing it. Sorry for the error. Gary (18773)
First off thank you Frank for the kind thoughts. I'll take all the assistance I can get. Well last night I went and took my bearing covers off. The original vertical movement was around 8-10 thousand in both the large and small bearing of my Heavy Ten. You would expect that it should be straight forward to just remove some shims and get it back to specs, right? Well guess what. It was a real mess in there. The shims were 4 times as thick on one side as the other in the small bearing .014" vrs .003".The large bearing had .019" vrs .012".The worse was yet to come. The bearing expanders have been altered to the point where they no longer act as expanders but just sit there taking up space. Someone had removed the angled sides of both expanders and there is no way they can exert any force on the bearing lips at all. The spindle shaft looked very nice (no scoring to speak of as far as I can see) I wasn't deterred at all and simply evened up the shims per side and removed a small amount from each bearing. After a couple of tries and making some of my own shims from shim stock I have some form of success. with a couple of problems that aren't too bad considering the situation I now have a vertical movement of only .0015" in both ends. I ran the lathe carefully in backgear lowest speed for some time and it worked itself out pretty well.I then moved up in speed to the small flat pulley and no backgear. The small bearing started to get warm to the touch at this point. The belt wants to slip as well when starting. I have never run my lathe this fast and don't see any problem with the slower speeds I do use. I have to add that the only control I have on the tightness of my bearing around the spindle is by carefully setting the torque on the cap bolts. I know this is a bad way to do things but it is all I can see to do with what I have and the end result is ok by me for now. When I get rich and famous I will order a new set of expanders and some proper shim stock and fix it all proper. BTW where would I get them at a reasonable price, if at all?. I have to say it took all night( 11:00 could do it in an hour or two :-) I had a wonderful time and felt great while I was doing it although I'm paying the price today. It wasn't half as scary as I had thought even with the problems. If you are thinking of doing the job just go ahead and check things out under the caps, it isn't difficult at all. You can check things out and get a fright like I did though . I had a lot of fun and felt useful again. One last thing. Can anyone tell me what the spindle speeds are for the Heavy Ten from standard running thru the backgears? I had planned on borrowing a strobe tach from my work but had to go off sick before I got around to it. I can't find the speeds anywhere in any of the files I can open in the group files. So any help would be much appreciated Oh yes is it ok for the bearings to get warm (not really hot) to the touch? Thank you all very much for the assistance with this project so far. I think I am not finished, just yet. Tom (18777)
Tom Glad you did it! Scary at first then it al makes sense! I use plastic shims - you can get a selection of them from MSC or ENCO or any of those. They are quite useful to have around. It's much too expensive to buy a "peelable" SB shim kit, which, I am told, don't peel very well anyway. At least now, you have a going machine! Have fun! I have a "light" 10 (10K) so do not know your spindle speeds - someone on this list will probably know. frank (18779)
Tom, Its in HTRAL low speed 700, 434, 277, back gear 129, 79, 50. JP (18781)
Bearing some improvement
Well, I stuck a piece of tool steel in the chuck and turned a new motor shaft for #2 sphere-grinder. No 'barber-poling, good finish. Now I have another question. I have the tool steel to do it but I want an opinion. The stud-gears are loose from fighting wars and high school kids making zip-guns. I could make brass sleeves that would have .015 wall thickness, OR I could make new studs to match the worn gear bores. What is better? Right now, my gear train sounds like the midnight special through the boneyard. It would involve single-pointing some threads for each stud, haven't taken a real close look as yet. Ron (18812)
If at first you don't have time to machine - cheat! I would suggest skimming the studs to a proper regular diameter and shimming them with premade presized bronze bushing stock, or even shimming them with strips of steel or brass shim stock cut to fit the circumference ( I just finished restoring/refitting an egghole-worn plastic part for a lawnmower steering gear by doing this, didn't have a suitable piece of stock at hand to make a new one out of aluminum and I didn't have the time or intention to make the whole thing over out of stainless or carbon plate stock). At some time later when sanity has returned and the project pile is smaller, you can either reweld and resize the shafts, make new ones, or sleeve them with steel and weld or braze together. BTW, make sure that your gear bores are not rough, eggy, or tapered - they can trash the new shafts quickly if they are. your new studs may want to be hardened silversteel in this case. those SB gears are real dang hard, I wouldn't trust anything but a toolpost grinder to true them up inside and then you would need to do all to the same diameter, then make your studs. the option would be to reweld the bores and recut the proper diameter, another good job for a TP grinder. Ron (18832)
I would ream or bore the gear bores round and a fractional size and make new shafts from O1 stock. The finish is already ground and you can get it in 1/64 increments. JP (18837)
10k bearing question
I just pulled the spindle out of a 10K I bought some time ago, I am going to use a serpentine belt. The lathe has a bronze bushing in both ends of the head stock. There is a small retainer that holds it from turning within the casting. I looked on SBs website and see no reference to this design. It does look "factory" to me, so I don't think this was a repair. I was unable to use the holes to hold down the felts when I put it back together but there is a small gap at the bottom of each bearing to put a soft wire in to hold felt. (18868)
I think the "retainer" of which you speak is the "expander" and there is a lot of discussion in the archives about its function and how to use it to adjust the bearings. If you can't use the holes to hold down the felt wicks, take out the oil cups and use that opening to stick a wire in to hold down the felts while re-inserting the spindle. Frank (18869)
Thrust bearing
On my Southbend 9" lathe, end thrust on the aim spindle is taken up by a nut which backs up against a fabric washer. I understand that this fabric washer can be replaced with a ball thrust bearing thin enough to fit into the available space. Can someone give me the statistics on that bearing (number, size, etc)? DB (19191)
It's not a ball but roller thrust bearing. I didn't have the specs here, but there is a lot about this in the archives. Well worth doing. The bearing and the two thrust plates cost about 7 bucks and the you can take out all the end-play from the spindle. It really makes a difference! Frank (19201)
McMaster Carr part numbers Quan. 1 5909 K39 steel needle-rolled thrust bearing $ 6.90 Quan 2 5909 K53 .031 thick washer for 1-3/8 shaft dia. $ 1.00 ea Prices as of 11/04/03 Put the fiber washer between the steel washer and the adj. nut (19203)
Not necessary to put the fiber washer in at all. It has a metal tit on it. also, on some spindles, there won't be space. I have just enough clearance. Frank (19206)
Interesting! What 'lube' do you use on the roller bearing and how frequently? If it is oil and how to apply it if oil? Is it 'greased' once and forget it? What grease? Dummy/new to machining here also. We are going to take our spindle out and check the wicks on an 'unknown' sb9 we purchased recently. Thanks in advance. Ed (19224)
I use way oil every day that I run the machine. A quick squirt on the top edge when I oil the rest of the machine. It works for me. JP (19228)
I lubricate just about every thing on my 9 model C with spindle oil. I keep a pump type oil can on the lathe, each time I use it, it s squirt squirt squirt. I've had this lathe for 47 years. (19234)
I was wondering how the oil gets into those roller bearings and what oil. Currently it has the thrust bushing in there and since we were tearing it down, was wondering what oil and how it gets into the rollers on the replacement roller type thrust bearing that McMaster sells. We were thinking of using that as a couple said it was a smoother and etc better replacement. (19249)
I think the roller bearing you're talking about is the one several of us have used to replace the fiber washer that goes on the extreme back side of the spindle between the take-up nut and the back of the headstock. These get oil from the spindle oiler system. Glen (19269)
Ah, ha, the spindle oils them. Just wondered how they kept 'cool and wet'. Makes sense. Might still aim a drop their way when oiling it, or would that 'wet' the small pulley? (19365)
Spindle bearing question
I am resurrecting a 9" model A. The machine appears not to have been abused, and only lightly used. I am planning on replacing all of the felt wicks for lubrication, and am getting ready to remove the spindle. Question: should there be any perceptible play in the spindle, say, when moving the chuck? I guess what I want to know is everything I can learn about spindle bearings. Any help would be appreciated. I have studied the army manual, but other than the exploded drawings, there is not much information on adjustments, etc. David (19920)
No there should not be any perceivable movement of the spindle when you move the chuck (other than turning. ha, ha.). The thrust bearing is designed to take up any front to back movement. If set up a dial indicator at one end of the spindle and insert a piece of bar stock (about 18" long) into the spindle and pull up you see .000 to .001 movement if you bearing are in spec otherwise you will have to remove shims to bring it into spec. Ed (19921)
Ed. Could you tell me more about these shims, or perhaps point me in the direction of the proper manual? David when you move the chuck (other than turning. ha, ha.). The thrust bearing is designed to take up any front to back movement. If set up a dial indicator at one end of the spindle and insert a piece of bar stock (about 18" long) into the spindle and pull up you see .000 to .001 movement if you bearing are in spec otherwise you will have to remove shims to bring it into spec. (19940)
David there are a couple of pages in the files section outlining the procedure. It's pretty much the same concept for all models. dennis (19945)
Hot Bearings
I just got the necessary oil for my heavy 10 and got to run it a little. In the low speed it seems ok, but in the higher speeds, the bearings will get hot and the spindle will begin to stick. If I loosen the bearing caps, it will free up and cool down, but is this what I should have to do or is something wrong? Kevin (20578)
Kevin, Loosening the screws on a heavy 10 actually tightens the bushings. You screw in to loosen. If it still heats up you need to take out the spindle to see if it is galled. It could also be that the spindle is not getting oil. You have to make sure the oil holes are clear and oil is actually flowing in. Paul(20580)
Just as a follow-up, my bearings look like the ones in the photos section labeled 'Top' under All Albums | Photo Albums Should there be shims under the feet? Kevin (20581)
Kevin, I'm no pro at this but it sounds like you need to check out your shim situation under the bearing caps. I had the same problem as you and added a few 1thou shims. It works much better now but still needs to be set up better. Just thought that might get you going again. Don't run your bearings so that they get really hot to the touch, you will cause expensive damage I think. I almost never run my lathe in the fast range anyway. Hope this helps a little. Tom (20583)
My bearing caps don't look like the ones I have seen online. They are held down with two hex bolts and don't have the two inner pipe plugs... although there is an oiler down below the spindle. Does that still tighten it? The spindle frees up when I loosen them. I removed the left bearing cap and there appeared to be oil, although dark, and the bearing surface appeared smooth. Kevin (20591)
Help with 9" main bearing
You probably had the clearance set too close and/or the lube was not able to work into what space was left. Be sure to use 30 weight oil. High speeds and high forces (dull tools) cause the spindle to heat up and expand closing what clearance there is to zip. For service like this you need to open up the bearing a little. Normal procedure. RichD (21250)
Sounds like it ran out of oil to me. Perhaps the felts are plugged up with stuff...another thought would be the type of oil used. What type of oil are you using? Norm (21251)
The fact that it still turns hard after you loosened it and after it has cooled is of concern. I agree that you did not have adequate lubrication. However you need to remove the spindle and look at it. You may have picked up a bit of the metal on the spindle (galled it). The spindle is hard. The galling is softer. It can be removed. While you have the spindle out look at the oil wicks and clean out the oil reservoir Jim B. (21252)
Thanks for everyone's comments, I seem to think that indeed a piece of metal got into and the spindle and has caught itself up inside there. As for the question about oil, the machine was regularly oiled with 30 weight machine oil so I don't think lack of oil was a problem, though a clogged up wick may be to blame. As for removing the spindle to see what the bearings and journals look like, how do I go about doing this? Apart from loosening the two single bearing caps and removing the locking takeup nut on end of the spindle how do I get the main spindle separated from the bullgear and pulleys? I was able to find the army manual for these lathes, but nothing was mentioned about the removal of the main spindle. -Mark (21253)
Loosen the two cap screws on the journals. Remove the Nut and rear thrust washer just in front of the spline at the rear of the spindle. The bull Gear is keyed to the spindle but is not fixed to it. the pulleys are free on the spindle but dogged to the bull gear with the removable plug. The spindle is free to come out. However it may need a little tapping with a wooden block between the hammer and the spindle or with a plastic mallet. Protect the ways . It could fall out. On the way back you need to align the spindle to the bull gear key. Mark the spindle with crayon to help align it. There are two small holes bove the oil caps The felts have springs to keep them against the spindle. They must be compressed and kept compressed. Use wires or small # drills in the holes to accomplish this. Jim B (21258)
I got the spindle out to discover a mess of the bearing surface on the inside of the main headstock bearing (see pictures listed below). When I removed the spindle and chuck assembly I also found that the felt wick was not fully seated against the spindle, which meant little to no oil was probably making its way to the bearing face. Included are some pictures of the damage, if anyone has some suggestions as to repair or replace this mess I am more then willing to hear them. Mark (21267)
mf36@d... wrote: the bearing surface on the inside of the main headstock bearing (see pictures listed below). When I removed the spindle and chuck assembly I also found that the felt wick was not fully seated against the spindle, which meant little to no oil was probably making its way to the bearing face. suggestions as to repair or replace this mess I am more then willing to hear them. polish the spindle in a lath , hone head stock with cylinder hone just enough to remove high spots from ridge formed by lack of oil and buy new oilers and use right oil 10W nondetergent that means not automotive but machine oil. Boris (21271)
Mark, Sorry I can't help you with your bearing troubles but just wanted to ask if you had any pics of the whole lathe. It sure looks nice. I've always been interested in the old SB's with that open design I guess g about running it though. Looks like it would eat someone as clumsy as I am sometimes g can help you out some. Tom (21277)
I looked at the pictures. It doesn't look to bad to me. As previously state, I'd just hone out the bearing had polish the shaft. The scoring was only on the front of the bearing. You still have plenty of surface (support) area on the bearing. If you can just hone the front (where the damage is) then the better. I have heard of some types of acid that only eats brass and not metal. Might soak the front of the shaft in that. Then use oil and very fine polishing cloth (1000 or so grit) and polish the spindle by hand. Tom (21279)
Yes, it's as simple as that. The pulleys run free on the spindle while the bull gear is keyed to it. On mine, the fit of the bull gear was quite tight, so some serious tapping with a hide mallet was required to remove the spindle (and to get it back in again. I'm not sure if this is right. Nick (21286)
Spindle bearing wear
I have a 1936 9" C; it has cast spindle bearings which have about .005" lateral play; tightening the cap bolt doesn't help this; does anyone have suggestions or is it just excessive wear that I can't fix? Thank you for any input Rick A. (21332)
Rick I assume you have taken shims out of the gap in the casting where the bolt passes through? If you don't remove any shims you can tighten on that bolt all you want without any effect. Removing the shims will allow it to tighten up. Alex (21339)
 We used to scrape the edges of the cast bearing to take the play out of them. e would use a dial indicator on the spindle to check the run out and work it tell it was gone. there were special tools for scraping that were used for this any one can do it but go slow you can get it to tight very quick. Thomas (21345)
9" spindle bearing shims
Does anyone know if shims for 9" spindle bearings can be got anywhere. They're a bit fiddly to cut out by hand, even from thin brass shimstock. Nick (21978)
Call Rose at Partworks. Her info was just posted here sometime this past weekend. Mark (21979)
Rose Marvin Parts Works, Inc. 3702 W Sample St Ste 1104 South Bend IN 46619-2947 Business: (574) 289-7781 Business Fax: (574) 289-7783 (21980)
I have a 9" shim question. When I run mine in hi range, the bearings get a little warm to the touch the spindle gets a little sticky (hard to start). Should it be re-shimmed or just loosened? Paul (21981)
The plastic shim material is great for this sort of job. My Heavy Ten is very happy with bearing shims made from it. Cuts nice with scissors and has just a hint of squidge so you can get things just so by adjusting the bolt torque. Packs supplied by RS in the UK come in color coded thickness so its easy to work out what you have. Nick, I'm in the UK too and have some large sheets of the stuff, E-mail me off list and I'll see if I have some in the sizes you need. Clive (21986)
Spindle needle bearing
Does anyone have the part # for the proper needle bearing thrust washer replacement for the 10k spindle? Ludwig (22440)
Are you looking for the south bend part numbers of the thrust bearing to the right of the rear bearing or the extra bearing and washers we add before assembling the spindle nut ? (22447)
McMaster Carr number for bearing is 5909 K39 . the washer is 5909 K53 , two are required (22449)
McMaster, they are Stock# 5909 K 39 ($2.73) for the bearing assembly, and 5909K 53 (2 required) for the .031 hardened and ground washers. Jim B.(22450)
Does anyone know if this thrust bearing replacement can be done on a Heavy 10 and, if so, the source of the bearing? (22451)
I would like to know the answer to that as well. I searched far and wide for a needle bearing that would fit the 10L and couldn't find one. (22452)
What's the OD of the spindle at that point? lurch (22453)
I have a source for needle-roller thrust bearings up to 9-inch ID. Right now I'm looking at 2.25ID/3OD on their website. (22454)
Dittos for the 9's and the others we seem to run across often. Once recalled, can we put the whole batch of data in the files section as a reference file for spindle bearing upgrades? Could make a table of datasets listing the spindle diameter, part numbers for each. Then when new sizes arrive they can be inserted easily and recalled for posterity. (22456)
I've had motion industries' needle-bearing catalog page open for several hours waiting for someone to post the OD of the 10L spindle... lurch (22460)
Lurch I have just tried and had no luck at finding said bearing also on a newer heavy ten. My spin. measures 1.873 I would give that a 7/8's od. Original bearing is 7/16 thick and 2 and 9/16 od. I would assume knowing old Southbend that the original bearing was larger od and ground down or some such adapt. because we couldn't find exact. Also we surmised that od could be up to 3.00 in. without bothering anything if we could get the id and thickness right. $140.00 Leblond has them. A bit steep for a ball thrust I thought. Grateful for any info on location. Have found a 2 in id and considering busing the spin out to make this work but would really like to find a good match if possible. Grumpy (22464)
You're a good man Lurch. Hang in there. I have a 9A, so my info won't help.(22466)
The 1.875 ID isn't too hard to match...MSC shows three ball thrust bearings in that ID ranging from $60 up...all of them a bit thick and a bit fat...but a needle roller thrust bearing will likely be too thin and a commonly available ball thrust bearing likely too thick for that application...that's based on 2 hours' web work... that's a BIG bearing...the $140 price from LeBlond, although it's not a china-made type price, isn't really out of line with what other disty's want for that size range bearing. For a good one, anyway. We had some bearings used in blood cell centrifuges where I used to work, were about 4" ID and 5" OD and 1/4" thick...and cost us 1900 apiece. And they didn't look like there was anything special about them. bearing manufacturing co of Chicago www.bmcbearing.com is one place to look. Timken/torrington and motion industries [formerly berry bearing] have websites full of metric ISO bull!@#$ these days... heck with it. I threw the specs at half a dozen major bearing distributors via email...let their experts figure out who makes that bearing. I'll forward any replies I get, to the list. lurch (22467)
Its a little over 1.75". To mic it you have to loosen the takeup collar which I am not going to get into. Just before the threads it is 1.75" What are the standard sizes between 1.75" and 2.0"? JP(22468)
1.875, 45mm, 46mm, 47mm, 48mm, 49mm, 50mm. I thought we were looking for a replacement thrust bearing that goes inboard the headstock...which I am told is 1.875 ID. Anyhow...time to get my butt to work. (22476)
I thought someone was looking to replace the fiber washer on the other side with one. JP (22477)
Thrust bearings
Anyone got a heavy 10 where the thrust bearing has a manufacturer's part number on it we can cross-ref? (22484)
On mine I just had out and gave you the dimensions for it appears it was factory ground to change the dimensions and remove any markings such as part numbers to make sure of the parts business going back to them. Could be wrong just my suspicious nature. Anyhow the od of the thing is ground looking as well as the thickness od not a nice polished look like bearings usually come with, more like a toolroom grinder finish. The measurements are again 1 and 7/8 (.873 actual) id and 2 and 9/16 od with a 7/16 thickness. The thickness is the problem my bearing stores have had. If they get the id the thickness is getting up there to about 5/8 which will never fit. One guy can get a fit except for the id is 2.00 which is considerable if the price is right and quality because I see no problem making a sleeve from the 1 7/8 to 2.00 for the spindle but again I could be just being to tight and the 140.00 dollars if it is a good American bearing may be a bargain. If I do bite the bullet and get one I will post if a number is left on the new one for our use. Mostly thanks for all your work. I tried to go web after all the stores struck out but my luck on the web was the same . Grumpy (22487)
Have you thought about a needle-roller thrust bearing and a flat washer to take up the excess? There's a zillion bearing manufacturers out there; the thing to do would be to get hold of one really GOOD bearing distributor and task HIM with sourcing the exact bearing. Bear in mind [no pun intended] that may not be the original bearing on your lathe. Lurch (22489)
My SB9 has a ball thrust bearing and it is apart at the moment. I can't find a Mfrs. pt. no. on it, but the id is 1.38", the od is 2.1855" and it is 0.5" thick. In this application the bearing only loosely references on the ID, the OD is open and vulnerable to contaminants, the length has to be within the scope of the nut etc. I have an INA catalogue 307 (my Nephew woks at INA) which shows that a typical axial needle assembly consists of a cage unit, a hardened thrust washer which references on the shaft dia. another HTW which can also reference on the shaft or in a housing etc. A variety of washers is available including thickness. As I haven't seen an SB10, I can't visualize the assy. I was hoping it might be less vulnerable to swarf. A 35mm bore is very close to 1.38", substituting a NB for my BB doesn't appear to eliminate entry of swarf, one possible washer will improve the situation. Ref INA cat. 307 - P 220 - 223. Jim Waugh (22492)
The 9/light-10 bearings are available from McMaster-Carr. I have a set awaiting install that's been in my 'inbox' for over a year. it's the heavy-10 bearings with the 1.875 bore that are turning out to be a bitch to source. can't find a Mfrs. pt. no. on it, but the id is 1.38", the od is 2.1855" and it is 0.5" thick. the OD is open and vulnerable to contaminants, the length has to be within the scope of the nut etc. that a typical axial needle assembly consists of a cage unit, a hardened thrust washer which references on the shaft dia. another HTW which can also reference on the shaft or in a housing etc. A variety of washers is available including thickness. it might be less vulnerable to swarf. A 35mm bore is very close to 1.38", substituting a NB for my BB doesn't appear to eliminate entry of swarf, one possible washer will improve the situation. Ref INA cat. 307 - P 220 - 223. (22493)
I have only been considering needle bearings . I find one that is 2.00 id and 2 3/4 od that I can get the mating washers real close and surface grind them to exact thickness. Problem is the 1/16 inch diameter difference on the id. I would have to turn a sleeve to get the spindle to the 2.00 and the rest should work fine. I think the needle bearings would probably work at the lathe speeds and loads don't you? The original balls are a cage affair with two side pieces making a three piece bearing. Anyhow I couldn't find anything close in ball bearing thrust bearing so was just thinking about needles exclusively. Grumpy (22498)
Heavy 10 Bearing Caps
Something that has always puzzled me are the different headstock spindle bearing caps on SBL Heavy 10s. My 1943 vintage has plain caps like the lathe in this eBay auction: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem category=92086 item=3859222290 rd=1 However I have seen Heavy 10s with caps like the one in this eBay auction: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem category=92086 item=3858407582 rd=1 At first I thought it was a newer model, but my lathe is very similar to the one in the second auction with the exception of the bearing caps. My lathe has cast iron bearings. Could the little tower indicate babbit bearings? Are the holes in the tower where the babbit is poured? Roy (22814)
Adjustable bronze bearings. The holes on top cap contain bearing expander screws. Details are shown in the parts manual. JP(22822)
The holes are for the bearing adjuster screws for the split bearing. (22823)
That makes prefect sense. I have a parts manual stashed away but haven't looked at it since I got the lathe fifteen years ago. At least if you adjust those bearings too tight you can back off a bit. When I got my lathe the cap bolts were loose and when I tightened them the spindle wouldn't move! Seems somebody got a little too ambitious in stripping off shims so I had to add a couple paper ones. Roy (22830)
Spindle bearing upgrade
My South Bend Lathe is a '70s vintage 10K model A underneath cabinet drive. I know very little about the history of this particular machine that I can verify in regards to previous owners. I am supposedly the third owner. I have never been completely happy with the spindle bearings on this lathe. I know all about the "lift test" etc., but have not been able to achieve satisfactory results that would compromise between too tight an adjustment that heats up, and too loose an adjustment that chatters under heavy cuts. Presently, I am considering two options. One is to replace both bearings with new original type bearings. The other is to retrofit tapered roller bearings front and rear. This will likely require the modification of the headstock casting and/or the spindle. Has anyone done anything similar to this? Raymond (23012)
I don't think there is enough "meat" in the casting for a roller bearing upgrade. I would replace the bearings with the SB bearings if you need them. Have you run the lathe alot to know how it cuts? It may be fine. Bob (23013)
If I remember right some on this list replaced the fiber washer with a thrust bearing. Suppose to help a lot. Might try that first. Tom (23014)
Somewhere in the archives on this list is a thread from a fellow who replaced the plain bearing on a 9 with antifriction bearings and it didn't work out. If I remember correctly, he got harmonics. Ed (23015)
Thrust bearings
Where does one get the heavy 10 cross feed thrust bearings front and rear, I think they are the same, part #AS841R1.) Vinnie (25312)
Did you try Parts Works? Rose Marvin Parts Works, Inc. 3702 W Sample St Ste 1104 South Bend, IN 46619-2947 Business: (574) 289-7781 Business Fax: (574) 289-7783 E-mail: rose (at) partsworksinc (dot) net -- Scott Logan (25314)
Spindle bearing shims
When I dismantled my 13 SB lathes spindle bearings, I found one piece homemade shims in the headstock bearing caps. The large bearing had two shims of .016 thickness, one each side of bearing. This bearing allowed around .0018 spindle deflection as measured with my best dial test indicator following the method and set up shown in HTRAL. The small bearing was found with one .015 shim on one side and a .002 shim (I hope this arrangement did not destroy my bearing cap) on the other side and allowed a spindle deflection of just about .001 . The spindle bearing surfaces and bronze bearing surfaces were found to be in surprisingly good condition considering the amount of crud that came out when the spindle bearing oil was drained. These oil reservoirs were flushed with kerosene while rocking the headstock casting back and forth on a piece of broom stick until no more crud could be detected in the paper coffee filter the kerosene pasted through when drained from the 1/8 brass pipe nipple screwed into the drain hole. Finally, I flushed it with the True Edge ISO 22 spindle oil that I plan to use in it. I bought the shims as shown in the SB parts manual from Leblond Ltd. The laminated shim packs are .015 thick made up of some combination of shims most or all of which are .0015 thick according to the SB book. (I have not dismantled one for fear of damaging it). The shims, called Brass Shim , in the parts manual are only .001 thick. My question is: I assume that when installed together these shims allow more than the .0007 to .001 spindle deflection called for in the manual. The procedure then calls for removing a .0015 thick layer of the laminated shims, alternating from one side of the bearing to the other side until the bearing is within specification. What the heck purpose does the .001 thick Brass Shim ($3.00 each) serve as I would think it would be the first to go as it is the easiest to remove? Marty at Leblond Ltd. did not seem to know. In the four days that I have had these shims I have not been able to figure it out. Nick (25972)
You always save the smallest sized shim for final tweaking when nearing the desired spindle to bearing clearance. If you ditched it first and then got down to the final setting and had for example .002 lift which is a wee bit too loose then all you would have left to remove is .0015 making clearance at .0005 too tight. Just a good rule of thumb to leave the smallest denomination shim in till the end for finest adjustment. Ron (25973)
 
     
 

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