| Hot bearings in the south/Bearing
with it (Jul 22, 2001) |
It looks bad, bearings
(Dec 18, 2003) |
| Binding (Dec 8, 2001) |
Correct position of 10K
headstock brg? (Apr 14, 2004) |
| Bearing adjustment (Dec
11, 2001) |
Spindle bearing adjustment
(Apr 15, 2004) |
| Bearings Again (Dec 12,
2001) |
Adjusting My Large Spindle
Bearing (Apr 30, 2004) |
| Real warm spindle bearings
(Sep 13, 2002) |
Bearing some improvement
(May 4, 2004) |
| 10L bearing adjustment
(Sep 16, 2002) |
10k bearing question
(May 5, 2004) |
| Tip for new bearings on 9" lathe
(Jan 17, 2003) |
Thrust bearing (May 21,
2004) |
| Advice for spindle bearing
adjustment (Jan 24, 2003) |
Spindle bearing question
(Jul 6, 2004) |
| Roller bearing SB Model A
experiment (Feb 10, 2003) |
Hot Bearings (Aug 19,
2004) |
| Hot brg. (Mar 17, 2003) |
Help with 9" main bearing
(Oct 11, 2004) |
| Roller bearings (Mar 17,
2003) |
Spindle bearing wear
(Oct 14, 2004) |
| Spindle bearing Clearance
(Apr 13, 2003) |
9" spindle bearing shims
(Nov 15, 2004) |
| My recent bearing problems
(Jun 18, 2003) |
Spindle needle bearing (Dec 1, 2004) |
| Thrust Bearing Mod On
Compound Screw? (Jul 17, 2003) |
Thrust bearings (Dec 2, 2004) |
| 10in heavy spindle bearing
problem (Aug 28, 2003) |
Heavy 10 Bearing Caps (Dec 11, 2004) |
| Inspecting the spindle bearings?
(Sep 9, 2003) |
Spindle bearing upgrade (Dec 15, 2004) |
| Spindle Bearing Problem
(Sep 12, 2003) |
Thrust bearings (Feb 18,
2005) |
| Cast iron spindle bearings?
(Nov 4, 2003) |
Spindle bearing shims
(Mar 12, 2005) |
| |
| Hot bearings in the south/Bearing
with it |
| If
you got a hot 'south-end' my guess is it isn't the thrust bearing,
it's the main bearing. I would start with the wiggle test to see if
you got play in the mains first. Put a bar in the bore with an
indicator on it. Do this while the bearings are cold. Anything more
then .0015 will need attention. Get a copy of the maintenance book
from the company that covers your lathe. Follow the instruction. I
got my book from them and it not only gives me the bearing info.,
but drawings and maint./lube. charts etc. Well worth the $25 I'll
tell ya. As far as your thrust bearing is concerned, can you shuck
it back and forth? If so there is a take-up nut on the outboard-side
of the south main. An Allen wrench loosens the nut (a threaded
collar really) so you can take up all but tiny bit of 'lash. Smear
some grease on the exposed ball-race. Let it run up to temp. and
check for heat again. If it's hot, back off on the collar a bit and
re-check. Normally, bearings should be adjusted in a warm-up mode.
IMHO. This way they have already expanded as much as they are going
to. Ron
(1156) |
| For some reason I
didn't receive the original query, but Ron has covered the basics of
the measurements quite well. If the spindle otherwise spins freely
(no binding or high drag) when cold, then I'd flush the old oil out
and use the Mobil I synthetic a number of us have been using for
years. The newer 0W-30 seems the closest to the spindle oil
viscosity that South Bend mentions. It will reduce your running
temperature significantly, especially at higher speeds. If you're
worried about suspended solids, you can drain the little reservoirs
once a month by turning the oil cups upside down, but I've never
bothered after doing it once, as the spindle bearings are a
continuous loss system like the Bridgeport. The radial movement test
on mine hasn't changed in five years, so the bearings are obviously
staying in good shape. Mike (1157) |
| Jim,
you may want to re-consider the idea. Before roller bearings were put
into this size lathe, tapered bronze bushings were used. Actually it
was the Celts of Europe prior to the Middle Ages who invented
roller-bearings for their chariots! ANYWAY, Let's start with working
with what you have there. Are your bearings loose? Is the head stock
out of line? I think your best bet would be to either tighten your
mains by using the peel-the-shim method or replacement bearings.
This alone should solve your problem. You can always speak with tech-support
at SBL. Ron (1162) |
| As it
turns out, I was able to adjust the slop out of my lathe, down to
.002. The chuck was the real culprit! It'll have to be replaced. By
the way : I have been Airborne qualified for many years!
Jim (1166) |
| Jim, Good to see that you were able to solve your problem so simply.
Conversion to roller bearings would have been difficult if not
impossible and I'm not quite sure how to go about repairing the
integral cast iron bearings in a model C, given that they adjust by
pulling the casting together. Possibly by boring and pinning in a
split bronze insert? Doesn't seem satisfactory offhand. Tom
(1167) |
| My friend
that owns a large machine shop says it can be done - line bore the
casting, and install thin roller bearings. Luckily, I had the option
I learned about from the board. I'm very grateful to guys like Tom
and Tony that take time out of their busy lives and to help a
newcomer. I asked for help on this problem on another board and was
ignored. Jim
(1168) |
| The
following link
http://people.ne.mediaone.net/wasser/SBLathe/index.html
found in the bookmarks of this group shows a drawing of an
underneath motor drive headstock with a split bushing. Does anyone
have a detail drawing or knowledge of its design, such as is it
grooved, plain, wall thickness and oiling method. I contacted one
member off group that was kind enough to share with me his method of
align boring his headstock. We discussed bearings and over size
spindles, I prefer bushings I can knock out and replace when faced
with the same situation again. George (1169) |
| Actually the making
of a bearing replacement with a mill and a lathe isn't very hard.
You can buy bearings that are close to the needed dimensions then
the finish work on them is straight forward. Yasmiin (1170) |
| Yasmiin, I agree
completely with regard to the machining. However, if you follow the
link in George's post (nice info on 9" parts there) you will find
that the bearing is made in one piece with a split. This presents
some problems with locating and alignment not present with either a
one piece solid bearing or a two piece insert. It Seems to me that
the split bearing can only be rigidly attached at one point. It will
have to slip a certain amount as the headstock bore is drawn down by
adjustment. Some provision must be made to keep the axis of the
bearing from shifting with relation to the axis of the bore and take
up thrust (a shoulder perhaps?). Not at all impossible but requires
some thought to make it work well. If anyone has been into one of
the underneath drive machines, it would be interesting to know how
SB did this. Tom (1172) |
| Tom, I am not sure
that holding the bearing in place is necessary. The bore for the
bearing is of course slightly tapered as is the outside of the
bearing itself. I can't claim to have dismantled every machine with
this type of bearing but the ones I have seem to depend on the
friction of the bore on the bearing to hold them in place. It would
be interesting to know if SB did this or did they put in something
to keep the bearing from turning in the bore. I agree about the
thrust part and there seem to be one adjustment for the bearing an a
separate one creating the shoulder you mentioned as a second
adjustment. I have one on my desk here that has a sliding collar
held by some set screws that goes against the bearing adjustment.
There are several pieces to this adjustment. One can see why a
modern ball or roller bearing is a lot cheaper to build. Yasmiin (1173) |
| Wasn't there an
article in HMS about this exact subject? Seems like the fix was to
bore out the headstock casting till it was true, then true and
sleeve the arbor to fit the bore. They didn't really get into any of
the arguments surrounding changing bearing types or anything, just
wanted to get back to like new clearances. (1177) |
| Yup, it was called
something like "The Rebirth of a Model C" from an older HSM. As far
as I can tell, there's nothing wrong with a hardened super-polished
spindle running in a cast-iron bearing. Most cared-for 9" SBs are
still in fine shape. When I got a different headstock for my 9", the
spindle was scored so I tried to get another one from the seller (a
guy who sells on eBay). The replacement he sent was in pristine
shape, but the bearing surface diameters were too big and he never
returned emails after that. I ended up getting another one from
someone else and have stashed away that "too big" one in case I ever
need to bore out the headstock. I keep the old scored one on hand to
test the fit of the nose threads as I'm making chucks and closers.
Paul R. (1178) |
| Binding |
| I have 9"
SB A model lathe. I bought it about 10 months ago and everything
seem to be working well. I chucked in a piece to work on and brought
the tail stock with a live center to stabilize the work. When
rotating by hand I noticed that there seemed to a binding that
hinders rotation. There is also a small thump when rotated by
hand. When I pull the center back out of the work, rotation is free
again. When I crank the center in again rotation is hindered again.
I don't believe that I am putting to much pressure on with the tail
stock. Steve (2360) |
| Could it
have something to do with the spindle thrust bearing? Is there any
axial play in the spindle, i.e. does it move away from the tailstock
as the TS ram is advanced? The Spindle is captivated axially by a
thrust bearing in one direction, and a fiber washer and clamp collar
in the other direction. That's one reason why you always turn
towards the headstock. Adjusting the clamp collar will remove the
axial play, but if there's trouble with the thrust bearing there's
not a whole lot you can do except fix it. BTW, we are assuming that
you lube the center hole in the workpiece before bringing up the
tailstock center, and that the center hole is drilled properly, and
that the tailstock center is in good shape. Paul R. (2361) |
| Have you taken your
bearings apart for inspection. I have two South Bends that use
bronze bearings. In their previous lifetimes swarf had somehow
gotten into them and scored the journals. The journals then wore to
correspond to the shape of the journals. Any end thrust from the
tailstock tends to wedge the spindle into the grooves in the
bushings. The only way I know of correcting this is to grind the
spindle bearing surfaces true, then make a set of undersized bearing
bronzes. Of course, your SB may have a different bearing setup than
mine. Some SB spindles are supported directly by the cast-iron
headstock--no bearing inserts. Orrin (2363) |
| Have you
check the live center for a tight/bad spot? It might be that. As to
the spindle, the washer that fits on the spindle nose right behind
the threaded section is pressed on. It should sit just behind the
shoulder that your chucks snug against. Its purpose is to keep swarf
out of the bearings and minimize oil loss. If you are indicating
this washer and have only 1/2 thousandth (.0005") of runout, don't
worry about it. If you are indicating the shoulder the chuck
registers against, then I would leave it alone. runout of .0005"
here is allowable for an engine lathe. A "toolroom" lathe can allow
around .0002" to .0003" runout here. But I would not go re-machining
this shoulder if you are not experienced. One slip and you could
ruin the spindle of your lathe. Also, I would check all other
possibilities first. The thrust bearing on the spindle is open
around its periphery and it is possible to get contamination in the
bearing. To remove your spindle and clean this bearing is not
difficult. 1) Remove the reverse tumbler assembly, 2) Loosen the
pinch-screw on the locking ring and remove locking ring and fiber
washer. 3) Tap the spindle with a lead hammer (or soft faced "deadblow"
hammer) from the rear until the spindle is free from the Bull gear.
4) Carefully withdraw spindle from the headstock (try not to damage
the bearings). As you slide the spindle out, remove the thrust
bearing, step pulley, and Bull gear in turn as the spindle clears
them. When replacing the spindle, the hardest thing is to do is get
the woodruff key aligned with the slot in the Bull gear. Tap lightly
and don't force it. If it doesn't want to go, pull it apart and
check for alignment or burrs. When threading the lockring on to the
spindle, you should tighten it just enough to prevent the left-hand
bearing race of the thrust bearing (the side up against the rear
spindle bearing casting boss) from turning when the spindle is
rotated. Webb
(2366) |
|
Bearing adjustment |
| Thanks to the
person who insisted that the bearing shims on the 9" lathe really
are laminated. I'm sorry I can't find your post with your name on
it, but you were absolutely correct, although until I picked at the
corner with a knife I never would have believed it. With one shim
peeled I can get the bearing tightened up so it only has around
.0015 to .002" of vertical play - perhaps still too much, but much
better than before. The most sensible method I found was to loosen
the bolt, lift up on the spindle with a bar, and then tighten the
bolt until turning it further no longer lowered the spindle as shown
on the indicator. The rear bearing seemed mostly to control the
amount that the spindle could be pushed down, so I ended up leaving
its shims alone. Now if I could just figure out how to get collar
tight enough to keep the thrust ball bearing from making weird
noises without having so much drag on the spindle. Chris
(2388) |
| Chris, Kim
Steiner Is the one who insisted that you had the laminated shim
pack. I should have done the same but I have seen so many lathes
with weird jury-rigged systems for "fixing" their problems, I wasn't
sure that you didn't have a shop made solid shim there. When you
adjust your bearings, adjust both front and rear bearings. The
clearances (.0007" to .0010" for bronze bearings and .0010" to
.0015" for cast iron bearings) apply to both ends. The procedure for
testing clearance is with bearing caps drawn down tight. Set up a
dial indicator on the nose of the spindle just behind the threads.
Then insert a hefty piece of barstock into the hollow center on the
spindle. Push down on the barstock to force the spindle down and
zero the dial or record the reading. Then lift up on the barstock
with about 50 to 75 pounds of force and record the new reading. This
will give you the true "play" in the bearing. Repeat this at the
rear of the spindle. If you are in the .0015" to .0020" range, you
may have to remove another .002" laminate shim off and replace it
with a .001" to get the clearance right. The locking thrust take-up
nut should be tightened just enough to prevent the left hand race of
the thrust bearing from spinning. Make sure the take-up nut has the
fiber washer under it. If your thrust bearing is noisy, it is either
dirty or it has some pitting of the races or balls. These bearings
are pretty tough and do not damage easily. I would bet that it is
just dirty. If you can't remove the spindle so that you can clean
the bearing properly, then I would recommend you try an aerosol
cleaner like "Brake Clean." Get one that has the little plastic
straw that you insert into the spray tip and then you can direct the
solvent directly into the bearing and flush away any contaminants.
"Brake Clean" can be hard on painter surfaces and the fumes are
something to avoid breathing. It is not very flammable, but if you
have an "underdrive" lathe, I would place some rags over the motor
to catch the solvent drippings. After you clean the bearing, oil it
well. Do not use grease! Dirt and chips will stick in the grease and
quickly contaminate the grease. Oil will drain out when the lathe is
idle and be self cleaning some what. you will need to oil this
bearing every time you use the lathe. Just make it part of your
regular oiling routine. Webb
(2389) |
| So should I put the
indicator at the back of the spindle for doing the rear bearing?
Mine only has a thin 'wavy washer' which I would assume is made of
spring steel between the take-up nut and the casting. Yesterday
someone else on the list implied this was normal. Am I indeed
missing something? If so, any idea how I could make a suitable
substitute? I guess I should try flushing the thrust bearing with
oil. Chris (2390) |
| Chris, When you
adjust the rear bearing, you place the dial indicator on the rear of
the spindle with the contact point of the indicator on top of the
take-up nut. As to the fiber washer, I've only seen one SBL lathe
that had a metal washer instead of the fiber one. This was an old
cabinet model made before World War II. My first lathe was a war
model made during 1942 and it had the fiber washer. Though, South
Bend Lathe made many variations and it wouldn't surprise me if your
came with a steel washer. Call SBL up and ask someone in their
technical department about it. Maybe they could shed some light on
it. If it is a factory made part, it should have a pin that engages
the back of the take-up nut; so the washer and the take-up nut
revolve as a unit. Webb
(2394) |
| Bearings Again
|
| For those of us who
haven't been this far inside our machines and don't know quite as
much about the bearing particulars, a few questions for the group:
Is there a roller bearing or a sleeve replacement mod for the
headstock that can give the SB 9 and 10's a better top speed and
runout tolerances? presumably the stock may need reamed or bored,
or the spindle cut down to allow room for this, has anybody done
this or tried -possibly to restore an older machine that has lost
it's grip on tolerances? Even a split and tapered aluminum bronze
sleeve in the right side should give an adjustable bearing that
could likely stand 2500RPM plus with proper lube, the tail bearing
would need other work though, is it these bearings or the thrust
bearing that limits the RPM? which SB machines had the factory
bronze bearing? Same for the thrust bearing - is there a timken etc.
replacement for this bearing that might be a sealed type. BTW - many
of the 9's I have seen are absent the fiber washer behind the
spindle tension nut - how critical is this?
(2391) |
| I would think
this would require substantial rework, possibly even the casting of
a new headstock, as rolling contact bearings tend to have a
substantially larger OD than ID. If I were going to go to the
trouble, I would make a larger diameter spindle which could take 5C
collets while I was at it, and I have given it semi-serious thought.
If someone could figure out how to do it practically, maybe the
metal lathe accessories guy could be persuaded to sell the castings.
I'm imagining somehow boring the new headstock casting using the
existing headstock, and boring the new spindle once it is mounted. I
would assume it is the hydrostatic (bronze or cast iron) not the
rolling contact (thrust) bearing which limits the speed. I do not
know about the speed rating of aluminum bronze (perhaps perusal of
Machinery's handbook is in order) but I can say that the larger
swing South Bends, which I think tend to have bronze bearings of
some sort, come set up with lower top speeds than the 9" plain
bearing lathe. Of course the bearings are larger diameter there too,
so the surface speed would be higher for a given RPM. Chris
(2392) |
| Real warm
spindle bearings |
| I have a project going that I need to do
with my heavy ten tool room South Bend. That's the only lathe I have
that has a collet closer. Because I have a lot of parts to turn I set
the spindle speed up to the fastest it will go and then I notice
that the spindle bearing get warmer than I feel comfortable
with. Heats up in 10 or 15 minutes. What is normal for this machine?
I regret that I do not have a temperature probe to measure the
actual temperature rise . The temperature by feel is very much
warmer than I get with another machine that I use most
regularly. That other machine has steel bearings in races and its
bathed in oil. What does this heavy 10 have? Alphawolf45
(6300) |
| Large plain bearings (two different designs - one with
inserts, one the native cast iron of the headstock) with a small
sump beneath each bearing. With normal lubricants, you'll get
exactly what you are experiencing, requiring loosening up the
bearing clearance slightly at higher speeds to keep the temperature
down. It is basically caused by turbulence in the film boundary
between the inner and outer bearing surface, which in turn produces
heat. If you'll switch to Mobil I 0W-30 in the spindle sumps, as a
number of us have run *for years*, you won't have to adjust your
bearings every time you want to run at high speed. It essentially
cuts any further wear to near zero, and is significantly more
"slippery" than the old spec that SB has used for years. That
greater ability of the molecular layers to slide between each other
without turbulence is what lowers the temperature. Try it in your
lathe for 20 minutes and you'll be amazed at the difference in
temperature at the high speed end. If you want more info, there was
a discussion of this subject back on November 8th...should be in the
archives. No, it will *NOT* dissolve all the crud in the reservoirs
and no, it will *NOT* score your bearings - UNLESS you have never
cleaned out the sumps - and if that's the case, shame on you! Mike
(6305) |
| Mike I learned a lot from your reply to my question. I didn't know
about the use of mobile 1 or the need to clean out the sump. Heck
buddy , I didn't even know I had a sump. LOL Shame on me for being an
ignorant chip slinger. Would you mind telling me the proper method of
sump cleaning? Alphawolf45
(6306) |
| I wouldn't consider anyone on this reflector ignorant because
they like to shift metal rather than constantly maintain their
lathes. To me, making chips is the bottom line. On the other hand, I
see 99.9% of the queries are about that maintenance aspect, so I
guess it's easier to assume everyone here has a bias towards it. :-)
No offense intended, certainly, because I'm inclined toward the use
it or lose it side. The word 'sump' is one I picked up here, but in
the Heavy 10 case it's somewhat overstating the term a bit. There is
a vertical ~3/8" bore in the bottom of each of the plain bearings
that is maybe an inch and a half deep - I never measured it. At the
bottom of the bore there is an intersecting horizontal hole drilled
from the front of the headstock, into which are threaded the oil
cups on the front. That's the extent of the oil-holding sump itself
- though there is an hole drilled at an angle to facilitate holding
the spring felt 'cartridge' in the bore while replacing the spindle
and two more from the edge of the bearing to the sump to provide
excess oil return from the edge of the bearing. This is not 100%
return, since there are no seals, nor intended to be - each bearing
"weeps" a little oil constantly in this design so that you have to
continually recharge the reservoir on a regular basis based on use.
That's what keeps small swarf particles moving outward rather than
being sucked into an enclosed system. Those holes are not really
part of the 'sump' proper, however, and there seem to be several
variants of this depending on when the lathe was manufactured. If
you invert the oil cups, the oil in the bottom of the vertical bore
runs out down the front of the headstock. That's how I change oil in
the sump every few months. To clean out that simple system if you
wish to change oil types, you need to remove the spindle - that has
been hashed over here a number of times - and gain access to the
vertical bore. Using pipe cleaners, dental tools, compressed air,
and solvent it's easy enough to clean it out after removing the
spring and cartridge combo. Mike
(6316) |
| 10L bearing
adjustment |
| You wrote on the
SBL yahoo list: No where do I recall you performing the spindle
adjustment procedure as described in the lathe manual. Rather than
just arbitrarily shimming the bearing caps, follow the adjustment
procedure described in the manual. [Note that if you have done that
ignore that comment] But the bearing cap bolts shims are a way to
adjust the ID of the bearing in the vertical plane, the little
screws on top (under the pipe plugs) may offer a "slight bit" of
adjustment in the horizontal plane. If the bearings that are
currently in place are from another spindle (maybe switched by the
previous owner?) maybe until it "wears in" it will continue to run
on the hot side, in which case you probably should run it loose then
after so many hours decrease the shim stack by .0005. With the stated
previous high running temps, any sign of localized wear on the
bearing surface? That might indicate the region where it is "tight".
(6349) |
| Mark.
You are correct that I am not following the manual with this
adjustment. I don't have the manual nor do I know exactly what I am
doing. That is why I am on this list LOL. I found the major cause of
the overheating spindle. Pretty obvious Had I been a bit sharper. On
the back end of the spindle , behind the back bearing is a split nut
with a bolt to tighten and lock the split nut into a position to
take up the linear play from the spindle and preload the thrust
bearing that is located on the other side of the bearing cap. The
split nut had broken and was welded up. The nut was then drilled and
tapped for a pair of small set screws that actually tighten against
the threaded spindle. Apparently the set screws engage a portion of
the spindle thread that causes the split nut to press unevenly
against the backside of the bearing housing. Only a small surface
area is in contact at any one time while in use and so there is a
rubbing and friction heat buildup going on . I will need to
disassemble the spindle again and make a new split nut. Then I will
take the advice as was given here to reassemble the bearings without
the spindle and measure for roundness Anybody know of a page here on
the net that can guide a person through this proper South Bend
approved procedure that you mention? Alphawolf45
(6350) |
| From my
manual, it says to put a dial indicator on top of the front part of
the headstock. Stick a piece of bar stock through the spindle, and
lift up with a force of about 75 lbs. The indicator should move in
between .0007" and .001". If the play is greater than .001", then
peel a .0015" layer off of the shim on one side (the shims are
actually stacks of thin layers, not a single thick piece). Repeat
the procedure for the bearing at the other end of the headstock. For
adjusting the axial play of the thrust bearing, the book says, "Hand
tighten the take up nut, then back off approx. 3/8" (circular
measurement), and lock in place with screw. Check to see that cone
pulley runs free." I hope this makes sense to you. The take up nut
is a kind of split collar with an internal thread that goes onto the
spindle. It is in between the spindle gear and the rear Babbitt
bearing cap. Jon(6367) |
| Jon Exactly what I was needing. I will come upon
a manual someday , I am sure , but till then I appreciate you taking
the time to share the excerpts from your manual on proper bearing
adjustment procedure. One of my difficulties that I have is coming
up with correct terminology for these parts. The split collar your
book describes is the item that was broken and then welded and
finally had set screws tapped into it by a previous owner. Not an
item that shows up by itself on ebay - I will make a new one myself
in the next few days. Jon
(6372) |
| I scanned the
four pages and put them up temporarily at
http://members.cox.net/aaf-radio-1/SB%20bearing%201.GIF
http://members.cox.net/aaf-radio-1/SB%20bearing%202.GIF
http://members.cox.net/aaf-radio-1/SB%20bearing%203.GIF
http://members.cox.net/aaf-radio-1/SB%20bearing%204.GIF in sympathy
for folks who have a low speed connection and would prefer not to
get it by e-mail. They are about 100K-150KB each, in a .gif format.
I apologize for rashly assuming you already had it and had
accomplished the procedures described. Should have asked first.
There are a number of little "gotchas" in there, so it's one of
the first reads before attempting any of the other more complex
things I mentioned. Let us know how it comes out. Mike
(6389) |
| Tip for new
bearings on 9" lathe |
| I just got through
fitting my new bearings to my 20's 0r 30's 9" C type lathe. I
machined them with the proper clearance of .0015" to .002" over all
after polishing and removing taper from the spindle. I installed them
shimmed them to the .0015" to .002" spindle slop and installed new
thrust bearings. and they where still tight. I ran it for a while
watching the oil level and I could hear the change in speed, add a
little oil and then it speeds back up. tried a lighter oil no help
tried a heavier oil, worse. took the lathe apart and cut groves in
the bearing around the diameter and in a spiral. Cleaned the bearings
up add fresh oil tighten everything down and let it fly. works like a
champ now bearings are much freer and uses less oil. BTW I
machined them from 936 bearing alloy and I have a 6" chuck on it
which doesn't help. Run out is less then .001" but the bearing don't
get hot not even after an hour of running at 1000 RPMs (installed a
larger sheeve on my motor along with a bigger motor) Just wanted to
let you guys now the results I got. Kerry (8732) |
| Advice for
spindle bearing adjustment |
| I have an
older lathe (1930's or 40's?) called a simplex that is similar in
design to the Southbend. It is a gap bed floor mounted engine lathe
12" swing with gap/18" w/o gap and 74" bed ways length. It is flat
belt 3 step cone pulley spindle drive. I use this lathe regularly
,however, I was wondering what is the best technique for
adjusting/tightening the spindle bearings. It has two locking
spanner nuts on each side of the bearing on the chuck side of the
spindle and one locking spanner nut on the front side of the bearing
on the gear train side of the spindle. Also on the spindle speed
chart there are 12 speeds you can obtain with this lathe. 6 speeds
in direct drive (position A) and 6 speeds back geared (position B).
Position A being unlocked cone pulley and back gears not in mesh and
position B being locked in cone pulley and back gears in mesh. Of
the 6 speeds each, the flat belt position is changed to one of the
three steps on the cone pulley as well. The problem is that I can
only get 6 of the 12 speeds by changing belt positions and going
from direct drive (A) to back gear (B). On the chart one set of 6 is
labeled with an S (3 each under A and 3 each under B). The other set
of 6 is labeled with an R (3 each under A and 3 each under B). I can
get the speeds labeled with S. I am still trying to get the R
speeds. The link below will take you to a spindle speed chart for
this lathe for better explanation. I also have pictures of the lathe
I can send. If the link doesn't work I can send it too.
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/simplexlathes/files/Simplex%20Spindle%20Speed%20Chart.doc Rush
(8897) |
| The link
failed. However, for South Bend lathes (and I
expect most others) there is a countershaft which contains a coned
pulley which drives the flat belt to the spindle coned pulley. This
countershaft needs to turn much slower than most electric motors, so
there is an additional belt providing speed reduction from a small
motor pulley to a large pulley on this countershaft. On many SB
lathes this is a V-belt, although it uses a V pulley only on the
motor shaft and a flat pulley on the countershaft. In any case, on
most SB lathes there are 2 notches in the V pulley on the motor, and
two steps on the flat pulley on the countershaft. Moving the V-belt
between these provides the additional choice to get from 6 speeds to
12. The flat pulley on the countershaft (on SB lathes) facilitates
changing the belt position. That may or may not fit with your lathe,
either originally or now (some parts could have been lost or
replaced). Frank
(8912) |
| Frank, The
lathe I have has a large 4 position v groove pulley mounted on the
counter shaft left of the lower cone and a smaller 4 position v
groove pulley mounted on the motor shaft. All 4 grooves are the same
diameter and there are 4 belts mounted to them for pulling. So the
only changes you can make is with the flat belt on the 3 step cone
pulleys. I have created a homepage at the link below you can go to.
Once there click the blue italics Simplex Lathe subtitle under the
lathe picture. It is a link to a Simplex Lathe page with 4 links in
red that are specifications and pics that illustrate my lathe that I
have prepared. One of the links in red is a spindle speed chart
showing the speeds under S and under R. I can get the speeds under S
thru flat belt changes and going from direct to back gear drive. I'm
still trying to figure out how to get the speeds labeled R.
http://www.geocities.com/wricwo/metalworkingrepairshop.html
Rush
(8980) |
| Rush OK, It
looks like it is not a 2nd belt choice. Here's another shot at it.
Did you look at the motor nameplate? By any chance is it a 2 speed
motor? SB offered such things on some lathes, typically larger
lathes. Is the motor original from what you can tell? Perhaps the
motor is a replacement, where the original was 2-speed. Do you have
the original motor controller, and are there any hints to 2 speeds
there? All of the SB 2-speed motors are 3 phase. Perhaps somebody
swapped for a (single speed) single phase motor? Frank
(8996) |
| Frank, I'm not
sure if it is the original motor. I also thought it could be a two
speed motor requirement there. I'll have to look at that again. I am
pretty sure it is a 3 phase motor because everything in the shop is
wired for 3 phase with the exception of small bench drills and
utility grinders. I'll take a pic of the motor and the lower cone
assembly and put it on my webpage with the other pics. I don't have
a parts manual for this machine because it seems to be a rare name
so knowing if everything is original is kind of hard to tell. Rush
(8997) |
| Frank, After
further looking I believe that the setup with 4 vee belts running
from the motor to the lower countershaft large vee groove pulley is
an original setup. I have found that this is a 2 speed 3 phase
motor. The other pigtail of 3 wires was disconnected from the switch
and laying in the floor taped up behind the motor. The contact
switch is mounted under the quick change gear box and has 6 contact
locations. Different contacts pull up and open when the switch
handle position is changed. There are 5 positions. They seem to be 2
reverses, a neutral, and 2 forwards. High speed reverse being all
the way up and high speed forward being all the way down and neutral
in the middle. The pigtail of 3 wires coming out of the high speed
side of the motor is connected to the first 3 contacts. Red is first
and is 220 volts. White is second and is 120 volts. Black is
connected to the third contact and is 120 volts. The last 3 contacts
have been disconnected from. I did an ohm check on the 3 wires that
are disconnected from the contacts and they all had a reading so
they are connected to the motor side. The problem now is I don't
have a wiring diagram for this lathe so knowing which wire goes to
which contact is what I have to determine.
Rush (9011) |
| Roller bearing
SB Model A experiment |
| I posted this
to rec.crafs.metalworking, and I think it will interest some of you
here. I have a SB Model A that spent its life in an R D department.
I absolutely love the machine, and it works hard for me. It had a
51st Birthday last December, according to the factory. Here is the
post: I use my old South Bend Model A in production, making an 8"
disk that must be plane parallel to .002 or better, and require a
good cosmetic finish. It is made from a proprietary alloy whose
chips are ribbony at low speeds and flaky dust at high speeds. My
best results are running at the highest speed the lathe has. This
clears the chips from the tool so they do not smear and cold-weld to
the finish. (It is a tin alloy). I use a specially made vacuum chuck
that I have posted on the newsgroup in the past.
http://www.gearloose.com/vc.html At the highest speeds, the bearings get hot, even when slacked,
principally the bearing at the left side of the spindle, away from
the chuck end. A friend found an old Model A head sitting in a junk
pile, and since it is a dull cold Winter, I did some playing.
The spindle and bearings on the old head were scored badly, so it
was a no-loss experiment. I made a long boring bar, and put the head
on the South Bend ways. Of course there was no question about being
on center! I made a long boring bar out of a 1" stainless rod and
supported the far end with a live center in the tailstock. There was
not sufficient metal in the casting to allow me to do what I really
wanted to do, bore it for opposed tapered roller bearings, so I
settled for needle bearings. I turned the spindle so needle roller
inner sleeves could be pressed onto it, and bored the housing for
press fits. I used a radial needle thrust bearing at the outboard
side, where the original phenolic thrust bearing and washer was
mounted. The reverse tumbler needed a tiny bit of relieving to give
me the extra .080. Set it up, and it ran fast and cool, but
unfortunately there was too much of a harmonic vibration in the
needle bearings to give me a good finish! Kind of a failure, but it
only cost $50, and I learned a lot. When I put the original head
back on, I did use the needle roller thrust bearing outboard,
opposing and preloading the ball thrust bearing inboard that is the
South Bend original...and THIS made a huge improvement!!! The
bearings now run cool at the highest speed!!! Apparently all the
friction was from the plain phenolic thrust bearing that was
original! Actual measured speed with a strobe is 1440 RPM. I just
made 36 pieces, and the headstock bearings never got more than 20oF
above room temperature, and it paid me this huge dividend: I now
have zero chatter, a perfect surface finish you can see the
reflection of the tailstock in(!) and flatness center-to-edge of
better than 0.001 !!! BTW, I am using RNL carbide inserts, which I
diamond lap before use. You other South Bend Mod A owners might
consider this! I got the roller thrust bearing at McMaster: The
bearing and washer set only cost few bucks. Get one for a 1-3/8"
shaft. When installing instead of setting the thrust bearing to the
usual 0.001, set it for 2-5. tenths. I finally got rid of the bands
caused by the in-and-out 0.001 excursions of the spindle! It has
been a good experience. I got a good chance to study the wicks and
shaft and bearing conditions of the original head. Fifty years old,
and the journals look like mirrors except for one place where
someone let the spindle bite the felt spring. (bah.) Have to say the
people who first made the Model A sure knew what they were
doing. Except for that phenolic thrust bearing. I have photos of
the experiment as it went along, the boring, etc., if anyone is
interested I will put them up on my page. The original bearings
are nothing more than SB's The bearings run cool now, even when snugged against the shims. I guess all the heat was coming from the
thrust bearing. I used the recommended method of a broomstick and a
dial indicator. Still amazed at what good condition the bearings and
journals are in. If someone told me that a hardened and ground shaft
running in cast iron would last fifty years I would have laughed at
them. Until I did a search and read about journal bearings. If they
are properly designed and maintained, the only thing that seems to
wear out is the oil. Amazing. OH! If anyone wants to try the needle
thrust bearings from McMaster, they are Stock# 5909 K 39 ($2.73) for
the bearing assembly, and 5909 K 53 (2 required) for the .031
hardened and ground washers.($1.08 each..haha) The existing
lubrication ports in the spindle, that lubed the stock phenolic
washer outboard trust bearing feeds oil to the needle bearing
perfectly.
(9223) |
| Jon, Postings
like your "Roller Bearing SB Model A Experiment" make this group
worthwhile! Jim (9225) |
| THANK
YOU for posting this great success story! I'm going to try the
bearing on my 10k, where I'm not happy with the fiber end thrust
washer. You've made a great contribution! Frank
(9239) |
| After installing the new McMaster Carr roller bearing on the
headstock shaft spindle end (replacing the phenolic washer as
suggested by John Rolfe) I finished up the rebuild of the gear
linkage to the leadscrew and found a small problem. Because the new
roller bearing is thicker than what was there, the reversing gears
casting hits the headstock spindle split nut, by maybe ~0.050" in
both forward and reverse gear positions. So, I removed the assembly,
took off the two gears (and cleaned them) and filed off the
offending metal from the casting (sorry, I'm no purist).
Reassembled, the casting no longer binds with the split nut, and the
gear train works nicely. John
(9398) |
| I just
replaced the fiber thrust washer on my 10k with the needle thrust
bearing that John told us about. It makes a fantastic difference!!!!
Considering that the fiber thrust washer costs around 15 bucks and
the needle bearing is so much better it is a no-brainer. I put some
grease on the bearing - is that OK or should it get oil? Frank
(9433) |
| Great to hear it is working out for you,
too! I assembled mine with that white superlube synthetic grease
with Teflon, but it appears the little oil drilling in the spindle
has been furnishing oil to it just fine. I cleaned the lathe
thoroughly before installation, and just went down and looked and
there is an oil film now under the bearing, just as there was with
the old fiber/phenolic. Fifteen bucks from South Bend for the OEM? I
have been running the lathe HARD the last month, both on the parts I
manufacture (at 1440 RPM, standing in a $pray of chips!) and have
been pushing it and the miller on a new project, a newer version of
the machine I make http://www.gearloose.com/revx.html and so far the
bearings continue to run cool and tight. I still have the original
2-3 tenths of thrust float that I set the needle thrust bearing to.
That ball thrust OEM bearing opposing the new needle bearing is
rugged enough to last fifty years, and does not mind a tiny preload
at all. Now try some critical large-diameter facing and watch what
happens. There are damned few "Upgrades" than can be had for a
little over two dollars lately. So the needle roller bearing
project was a failure, but the whole exercise was an education and
did solve all the thrust issues but good.
(9436) |
| On my
10k with 2-3 tenths thrust float, the inner (the one against the
headstock casting) bearing thrust washer was rotating. I was
concerned about it turning against the cast iron (should I have been
or is this OK?) so I cut a thin gasket out of sheet gasket material
and put it between the headstock and the bearing thrust washer. With
a few tenths of float the inside thrust washer was still turning. I
tightened up slowly until it just became zero or near-zero float;
the washer doesn't turn now and the spindle still spins freely by
hand. I figure there ought to be a few tenths resiliency in the
gasket if needed. Is this OK? Is it OK if the thrust washer turns
against the headstock casting? The bearing makes a nice sound!. (Whoopie,
a new sound for my lathe!) I use a piece of flexible tygon tubing as
a stethoscope and can hear the difference between the little roller
bearings and sound made by the balls on the inner original thrust
bearing. Frank PS I looked at your machine website - what does it
do? (the machine, not the site!)
(9440) |
| Hot brg. |
| Just getting my RKL running and the rear spindle is
overheating. both sleeves turn freely on spindle when out of
headstock. Have set up with plenty of clearance to run in. I have
tried using mobile dte 26 and wye oil in the reservoirs with same
results. Have put new felt in the wick springs but still getting hot
enough at medium speed to slip belt. Release belt tension and
spindle is hard to turn. Wait a minute and cools enough to spin
free. I'm about out of ideas. Have adjusted bearing expanders in
and out. No help.
(9786) |
| Check out
message 9223. There is a lot of good info and the pin thrust
bearings might solve your problem. I installed one on my lathe and I
am pleased with the mirror finish I now get when facing off. I
haven't run the lathe hard enough to notice any cooler operation,
but I expect that benefit, too. Glen
(9789) |
| Check the
clearance on that end. The shims that they use are brass and can
easily be compressed. Clearance should be measured every time you
tighten it back up. RC
(9790) |
| Do you mean
"way" oil? If so that might be your problem. Way oil is thick and
sticky. You should use spindle oil. If you did use way oil, you
might need to really flush well with kero and then use spindle oil.
Frank
(9791) |
| Heavy oil
will cause a properly clearanced journal bearing to run a little
hotter. You should check the clearances and use the correct oil.
Your problem is more likely due to a tight journal or take-up nut.
(The take-up nut is the easier one to adjust.) Remember, the journal
clearance is adjusted by the shims under the bearing caps. The
bearing expander screws should be ALWAYS be removed before loosening
the cap and tightened after adjusting the shim thickness. The
expander screws do not adjust the bearing clearance. Some helpful
links about oil:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/southbendlathe/files/Techinfo/oiling.jpg
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/southbendlathe/files/Techinfo/visc.jpg
(9793) |
| Hey pac,,
still working on heated journal. switched from mobile dte 26 (vis 68)
to mobile heavy(627,, vis 100) which is what i was told was spec.
still hot. I'm suspecting a bad journal brg. even though I have
both ends shimmed to about .002 to get it runnin. float set to appx.
.005 to avoid heating rear journal. hope I don't have to tear spindle
down to find my problem. can these be repaired if bad and reshimmed
or purchase new brgs?? have no idea how this girl led her life so
there could be problems on the brgs or spindle.
(9806) |
| Glen, sorry I guess
I don't know how to access#9223 or any #'ed message for that
matter. stirboy (9807) |
| Bill The oil
you are using is WAY to heavy. What you should be using and what I
have used in mine for over 30 years is 20wt non detergent oil from
pep boys. That heavy rear end gear oil you are using can not flow
where it needs to go and you are going to burn up your spindle and
head if you already haven't. The oil you were told to use is AW100
which is a straight SAE10 ND lube/hydraulic oil for machines. Pop
everything open and flush with solvent and then put in SAE20 ND
motor oil not gear lube or way lube. JWE (9808) |
| Bill, A
good spindle oil to use is Mobil's Velocite No. 10 spindle oil. This
has a SUS of 109 which is within specification for South Bend
Lathes' spindle bearings. At this point, I would remove the spindle
and check your bearings and journals. Clean and polish their
surfaces and flush out the oil reservoirs. You may find out that you
are missing the wick for the rear bearing. This could explain a lot.
Bearings can be replaced if severely damaged but they are expensive.
Usually, cleaning and polishing with fine crocus cloth is all that
is required. Webb
(9809) |
| Sorry, try
this link.
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/southbendlathe/message/9223
Glen
(9811) |
| I may have to strip my spindle down to check brgs./and
or polish things up to see if this will help cool things down. any
ideas on spindle breakdown as far as difficulty or how to go about
tuning things up once they are on the bench. are parts stacked on
spindle with light press fits or tighter? this is a 1960model RKL
with bronze sleeves. stirboy
(9813) |
| I recommend
that you measure the existing journal clearance (spindle play)
before you take it apart. I have done spindle service on a 13",
which is a similar design. Here are a few things I remember. Maybe
some of this info will help. Maybe someone can point you to a
service manual, too... Tearing down and inspecting the spindle for
the first time will take ~30 - 60 min. I don't know if your machine
has a plain or ball take-up bearing. The ball version spindle is
easier to work with. The plain bearing type requires pulling the
small gear from the end of the spindle. Remove the take-up nut, etc.
before removing the spindle. Remove the bearing expander screws
before loosening and removing the bearing caps. I held the belt out
of the way with a piece of wire bent into a bridge. The spindle
should be ready to come out of the machine. Note that there are
brass oiler tubes sticking up out of the bottom of the headstock
casting. They align with holes in the bronze bearing shells. If you
pick the spindle up and then decide that you need to set it back
down in the bores, make sure the shells are aligned with the tubes.
The small bearing shell (and thrust bearing and cone pulley) slide
off of the spindle. The bull gear is pressed on to the spindle. Mine
was not a heavy fit, but the 13" parts were a bit large for my
little arbor press. The big bearing shell slides off the spindle. If
your spindle looks a bit less than pretty, you can get the spindle
superfinished (micropolished) for ~$20 at most automotive machine
shops (the better polishing equipment cuts flooded with coolant).
Enjoy. info link about superfinishing:
http://www.micropolishing.com/article1.htm
(9819) |
| Anyone have
experience with babbitt bearings in an application like this? If the
phosphor bronze shells (or iron casting on the light lathes) were
really wiped out, would relining with maybe .020" of tin babbit
make sense? (9820) |
| My experience
with babbit is not very encouraging. We had a gut that specialized
in it redo the shaft and segments for one of our grinders. Cost a
lot and failed after less than an hour break in. Got some aluminum
bronze from McMaster-Carr and machined two new sets of segments on
my South Bend and success. That grinder runs 12 to 16 hours a day 5
days a week with no problems. Do not use cast babbit in a load
bearing area please. JWE (9824) |
| My experience
with cast babbit is just the opposite. I maintained bascule bridges
with cast babbit bearings. They are HEAVY and rotated on only 2 trunnion
bearings. The gear train shafts were also cast babbit. I watched
them being replaced on 2 of my bridges in the late 60s and the work
was successful. The 1917 vintage bridges lasted until the late 80s.
The key is knowing how to cast them. There was a thread recently
about that but can't remember where or when. Don't forget that 100
years ago babbit was the bearing material of choice. Just because we
have forgotten how to handle it doesn't mean it isn't a viable
alternative. Too bad that most of the machinists who knew how to do
it are probably dead by now. Dave (9826) |
| Roller
bearings |
| Can some one tell
me the dimensions of the roller bearing for thrust on a 9 inch
Southy made in 1941? I would like to do mine and would rather not
take it apart to measure it. I had made this same modification about
15 years ago on an old 16 inch lathe that I had. I put it at the
headstock instead of the tailstock end and it took up the thrust
perfectly. Max
(9792) |
| Large spindle
bearing: 1 13/16" dia. x 2 1/4" long Small spindle bearing: 1 3/8"
dia. x 1 3/8" long source:
http://www.southbendlathe.com/workshop/9wspecs.htm
You should be able to measure the OD and thickness of the ball
thrust bearing without disassembling the headstock.
(9794) |
| Spindle
bearing Clearance |
| Wow. Your spindle
deflection is .0001" with plain bearings. (?!) Have you measured in
both the vertical and horizontal directions? Do you have the 8-speed
or the 16-speed 9" lathe, and do the bearings ever run hot at the
highest speeds? (10189) |
| I am looking closer at the belts now. To answer
your question, I put a mandrel between centers (according to DIN
8605) and tested for deflection on the vertical and horizontal using
a B S .0001 dial indicator. I have the roller bearing set to allow
approx .00015" movement in and out (I don't like to run this too
tight). As for the bearings, I am not running them very tight. This
is a 16-speed lathe with a top speed over 1,100RPM. Although I
rarely use anything over 400RPM, I have run it at full speed with no
indication of over-heating. SB deserves credit for doing a great job
with their bearings! For what it's worth, my brand-new Emco Super11
CD which is independently toolroom certified has slightly more
deflection then my 1948 SouthBend 9A. It show's that there is
absolutely nothing compromising about using good plain bearings ;-)
Skip (10193) |
| My recent
bearing problems |
| I was working in
the shop this evening, experimenting with a bit of metal spinning,
on my 9" A model running it about 900 rpm. I was applying a moderate
load when the spindle stopped, and the poly-v belt slipped. BAD
NEWS!! I stopped what I was doing, and disassembled the spindle and
looked at the bearings. The front spindle bearing had picked up some
material from the housing, and welded it to the shaft. This scored
the bearing housing for about 1/4" in from the front face. I
polished the "welded" material from the shaft, and there appears to
be no damage to it. The housing is another story. I carefully
scraped the built up material off the bearing and gently honed the
surface as smooth as I could. (only in the small area near the damage
not the whole bore) I reassembled the headstock and the spindle runs
fine, but I'm worried about doing more damage to the machine. Can
anyone give me some advise on how I should proceed from here?
Pete
(12090) |
| I'm no
expert on SB lathes but I've recently had a bit of scored
spindle/bearing trouble myself. My 1928 9" SBL has bronze bushings
for bearings. Does your lathe have bronze inserts or is it just
plain cast iron? I ask about the cast iron thing because somewhere I
read that some headstock spindles rode in cast iron. Maybe I read it
wrong?? Here's what I did and it MIGHT help you. Your spindle is
probably not running parallel to the ways so here's my poor boys
approach to fixing the problem. I had the spindle plunge ground at a
real machine shop. After that it was hard chrome plated with a thick
layer of plating added to only the bearing surfaces. The spindle
plated surfaces were ground then lapped or microfinished. (3M makes
microfinishing film which is not to be confused with 2000 grit+
sandpaper) I asked for a 8 - 16 microinch finish on the chromed
journals. (Finish is like that on a piston pin) If you take the
headstock totally apart you'll see a machined flat across the back
side. (At least on mine) Using my Mill/Drill and a 4"boring head I'm
able to align bore the headstock bearings while assembled with
shims. The best thing of course would be to have it align bored in
something like a larger lathe or horizontal mill that way you could
keep the bottom of the headstock planted. As a check for
perpendicularity I used a right angle block and a 1/2" piece of
drill rod in the vee way of the headstock. If you have a headstock
without bronze bushings you'll need to either build up the spindle
OD quite a bit or have both the spindle and headstock selected areas
plated. Jim
(12093) |
| Peter Not
seeing the parts myself, and my experience with bushings and
bearings in general, it sounds to me like the bushing run dry and galded. Before running it much I would check the oiling passages to
ensure that the oil is getting to the bushing. If the passage is
clogged up, you may think it is fine because you may be adding oil,
but the oil could be seeping out another place before getting to the
bushing. It would be very hard for metal/gunk to enter the bushing
area unless they were worn so bad that you would have noticed slop
way before this happened Once the oil is proved to be getting to the
bushing/bearing, It probably would not hurt much to run it except
for what wear happened running it dry, there probably will be some
play now. The other risk you run now is if the bushing/bearing is
now bad enough, it could eventually ruin the spindle surface, so
installing new bushing as quickly as possible is a must. Clint
(12094) |
| Thrust Bearing
Mod On Compound Screw? |
| Has anyone on the
group either looked at or successfully modified a Compound Screw
Assembly to have Thrust Bearings similar to the update of Thrust
Bearings on the later model SB Cross Feed Screw? Ron
(12764) |
| Ron, I added
ball thrust bearings to my cross slide using MSC part number
03548591. There are 3/8 ID 11/16 OD x 9/32 thick. They cost about 5
bucks each and have hardened washers included. These are the
smallest OD 3/8 inch ID parts I have found. They are too big to fit
through the compound casting hole which is just under 1/2 inch. They
may work on your 13" compound. Have a look on the MSC web site and
search on thrust bearings. Glen (12765) |
| Ron If you
can't find a thrust bearing small enough to go through the compound
casting hole try using a pair of dry bearing material coated
washers. Dry bearing material e.g. Glacier DU is a PTFE "stuff"
mixture so such thrust pairs are very slippery. You run them at zero
clearance with a tiny pre load and low speed friction is pretty much
the same as roller or ball thrust races. Size for size load carrying
capacity is greater. Alternatively, as you are going to have to
modify the bushing assembly anyway (or, better, make a new one) you
could arrange things so that the thrust stays inside the slide
assembly instead of coming out with the bushing unit. It should be
possible to arrange a static thrust face mount for the bearing to
push against by either extending the bushing assembly so that
projects through the casting or by shortening it and pushing in a T
shape bush. Assembly may be a bit of a baffle and you will have to
work out the various lengths involved in component modification
rather carefully but there ought to be room. If I were to do the job
I'd bore out the casting hole to make room for the bearing and
change the bushing assembly to a two bolt fixing like a Boxford.
Make a new unit or extend the thread back and use a screw on flange?
I think this is the easiest approach. (After all fitting a complete
Boxford dial assembly is known to be the easiest way of getting
roller thrusts on a 9" cross slide.) Clive
(12770) |
| 10in heavy
spindle bearing problem |
| I bought a 10in
heavy in excellent condition but I'm having a problem with chuck
spindle play. Basically there is up and down play (the chuck jumps
up and down under certain machining conditions) yet ther is no back
and forth play. If I tighten the bearing caps I can hear the motor
start to strain. I assume the bearings have worn unevenly over the
years (1940 vintage). I have had a quote for new bearings but it is
over twice the price I paid for the whole lathe. Any ideas how I
could tackle this problem myself?
(13638) |
| Jon, is it
actually the spindle bushing or the chuck loose on backplate? Caps
need to be shimmed to speck and I like to run magnetic surface
temp. gauges on them till ya know what ya got. The right oil is a must. iso vg 100..cutting the shims is tricky if ya don't have all
the proper tools. stirboy
(13639) |
| There has been a lot of discussion on the topic of bearing
adjustment from time-to-time and there should be adjustment
procedures in the files section in SouthBendLathePix. It will also
tell you how to check your bearings for excessive play. Bearing caps
should be tight. If your spindle is binding when you tighten down on
your caps, there is something wrong. Typically, you are missing a
shim (or shims) that fit between the bearing cap and the headstock.
Another possible cause could be a poor fit of the chuck to the
spindle. This usually shows up as inconsistent chuck runout (from
mounting-to-mounting) but could cause the chuck to shift slightly
when taking a heavy cut. Webb
(13641) |
| I haven't
stripped both bearing assemblies down yet but the problem is rather
strange. If I remove the shims and VERY gently start to tighten the
bearing caps I can feel the spindle start to bind by trying to turn
it buy hand. Yet, even though the bearings are starting to bind I
can still feel up and down play in the spindle. When I first removed
the bearing caps they were shimmed with old Coke cans, suggesting
the previous owner rushed the job. I'll strip the whole assembly
down a take some accurate readings to see if I can detect un even
wear. Just out of interest what range of shim thicknesses should I
have to hand when reassembling? Jon
(13642) |
| I am going
thru a similar process with my 1955 Hvy 10. I removed the bearing
caps and discovered that the previous owners had not oiled/adjusted
the bearings properly and the spindle bearing surfaces needed
polishing. The bearings needed to be replaced. I think possibly your
bearings are different. Mine are bronze. I have been trying to
machine new bearings and this has been a learning process for me. I
have tried various polishing techniques with several failures. I was
unable to make lapping work to my satisfaction. I finally have a
completed bearing to try. Working with bronze to close tolerances
has been a challenge for me. I am concerned that the bearing
surfaces may have embedded grit that will destroy the spindle
surfaces even though the bearing surfaces are bright and very
smooth. If another member has made spindle bearings I would be
interest in knowing how the final polish was accomplished. Joe
(13643) |
| Joe, soft
bronze bearings certainly do get imbedded with abrasive. The spindle
journal areas, hard steel, can be abrasive polished. After
machining, bearings are usually scraped in to fit. The scraper is a
triangular hardened steel blade in a file handle made for this
purpose. You can make one from an old 3 corner file, 1/2" should
work, by grinding all sides flat on a bench grinder. The idea is to
taper it almost to a point and have the hollow between corners
determined by the wheel radius. Holding the blade almost flat in the
bearing bore, take light scrapings all around and then blue
(machinists bluing) the journal and rub slightly to see what areas
need more attention. I rebuilt a 9C for a friend 15 years ago. Still
going strong. RichD (13645) |
| Rich, I have a scraper such as you described. Will hone it
and give it a try. I tried lapping with non-embedding compound for
brass/bronze but just wore down the lap without attaining the finish
I wanted. (13649) |
| Inspecting the
spindle bearings? |
| I have been
going through a used heavy ten that I just got. Thanks for all the
advice so far. My new question concerns the spindle bearings. I have
new spindle wicks that I plan to install, but I was wondering if it
would be worthwhile to pull the spindle bearings while I have
everything else apart and inspect them. Any thoughts on this? I do
not have a puller or a press, so I don't know if I would be able to
do it anyway. Would it be better to just replace the wicks and leave
the bearings alone? Right now, the bearings seem to run smooth,
although I haven't tested the play with an indicator. After 15
minutes of running they do warm up to 85 degrees or so, but they
didn't get hot. I've only run the machine long enough to make a few
test cuts, so I don't have much history to go on. I'm also
contemplating cleaning up the QC gearbox, but I don't know if that
is necessary either. It works fine, it's just dirty. For what it's
worth, I just finished cleaning and re-wicking the apron and
carriage. Zach
(13859) |
| There is a document at
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SouthBendLathePix/files/
that has a step by step instructions about inspecting the bearings.
Mike
(13860) |
| The
spindle instructions in the manual basically say 'take apart the
spindle so you can inspect them'. I'm in the same boat Zach's in.
I'm getting to the point in my Heavy 10 project where I will be
pulling the spindle and cleaning it up. But like Zach, I also do not
have a hydraulic press to take apart the spindle to actually inspect
the bearings. If the bearings are thoroughly clean, and the spindle
can be installed with the correct clearances, is it still worth the
trouble to press apart the spindle to inspect the bearings? Jeff (13861) |
| Spindle
Bearing Problem |
| I just removed the
spindle on my heavy 10 and discovered, to my dismay, that a preveous
operator had attempted to remove the bearing caps without removing
the expander screws first. He pulled the expander through the
bearing, then proceeded to replace the bearing caps with the
expander ON TOP of the bearing!! This of course destroyed the
expander and crushed/dented/deformed the top of the bearing. The
rear bearing was not seriously damage, but the front bearing now has
detectable high spots on the inside of the bearing where the
expander was crushed down on top of it. So now I seek you advice on
the following questions. 1. Assuming a normal bearing (not my dented
one), how much of the bearing usually shows wear? I assume that 100%
contact area is never achieved, but I wonder if you could give you
opinion as to what is "normal". I ask because some areas of my
bearing have clearly made very little contact with the spindle and
still show the original machined surface. I have no way of knowing
if this is typical or if it is a result of damage to the bearing. 2.
How do I go about correcting my problem? Should I just get/make a
new expander and use the bearing as is? Should I use a Dremel tool
to grind down the high spots? Should I try and find a good used
bearing to replace it with? Zach
(13922) |
| If you use a
Dremmel, I would suggest using it with a high-speed round or
flame-shaped HSS burr and not a grinding stone. I Dremmel-ed one of
my bearings to enlarge the oil-return hole which was partially
covered by the bearing and used the tapered HSS tip. that way you
will not get any carborundum in your bearing system. Also, the
bronze does not like to machine easy with the Dremmel. Make sure you
have good hand support - "tripod" your hand - that is, hold the tool
with both hands with palms far apart and resting on a hard surface.
Go very slow. It is tough and does not come of in chips - rather in
strings and lumps. Frank
(13925) |
| I would
suggest you use a 3 sided scraper. Bronze scrapes with a smooth
finish remaining. Enco has the scrapers for about $4.00. You need
about an hour of stoning time to get the scraper sharp and smooth. I
have a similar problem with my Heavy 10. I had my spindle polished
and am trying to make new bearings. For me machining bronze is
tricky. I have had several failures but finally think I have taught
myself what works. You can get non embedding lapping compound from
McMaster-Carr for about $20.00. Joe
(13932) |
| As an
alternative method try scraping. Grind down a large triangular file
and scrape it with the edges, use a cutting motion and go slowly
checking the fit often. JP (13949) |
| Really you
want to minimize the amount of metal you take off as the bearings
are size internally, externally and on the expander slots. I don't
know how badly deformed your bearings are but there isn't that much
spare room so they probably are not too far our of round to be
massaged back into something approaching the correct shape. The best
way would be to make or have made a taper mandrel starting a bit
smaller than the current size of the bearing and ending in a
parallel portion a couple of thou bigger than the spindle diameter.
Taper bit wants to be about 4 times the bearing length. Coat the
taper with blue and work the bearing straight up it. Watch the marks
on the blue and carefully scrape out any sharp edges. When you have
got it onto the parallel part clamp it down with 3 or 4 worm drive
hose clips, do this with the clips at several different radial
positions. Scrape out any sharp edges and repeat. Hopefully you
should end up with pretty even blue coverage on the bearing. When
you are satisfied try it on the spindle, if all seems OK do a test
assembly, very carefully and well lubricated without the expander.
If all seems fine trim out any sharp edges in the expander slot,
polish off any marks on the outside and check for fit with the
spindle out and bearing loose. I'd expect you to be left with about
60 to 70% side engagement between expander and slot, not perfect but
good enough for home use. I'd expect the actual load carrying area
of the bearing to be down by a similar amount but again it should be
good enough. I've used this taper technique, it works but can be
hard on the nerves. The hose clamp massage approach will also work
direct on the spindle but you would need to be much more careful
with the sharp edges. Clive
(13973) |
| After further
inspecting the bearing I determined the high spots to were isolate
to the area right beside the split in the bearing. To correct this I
purchase a piece of pipe the approximate diameter of the spindle. I
them taped a piece of 400 grit wet sand paper to the pipe and used
that to knock off the high spots. This is certainly not the most
accurate way of doing it, but it seems to be work fine for my
purposes. After putting it back together the spindle spins with
slightly less friction that before. After a couple hours of run it I
will check the bearing adjustment. Note that I used sand paper and
not emery cloth. The larger grains of the sand paper do not become
imbedded as easily. Zach (13975) |
| I've had this
same problem with all different sorts of bearings I've tried out.
I'm not that familiar with the engineering of bearing lubrication,
but I do know that continuous heavy loads on the spindle or bearings
it will be wise to keep it well lubricated... and the associated
passages, reservoirs, valleys clear.. and to use the proper weight /
viscosity of lubricants. Personally I like the more expensive higher
quality ones when it comes to that. I will not trust cheap stuff..
and the same with bearings. Some bearings are not very expensive
others are really too expensive.. I have run into a few that I've
had to take apart and rebuild in order to get them to work well.
There are some different types of the same bearing, as I have
noticed. Automotive spindle bearings, those Timiken and Roller type,
and Industrial machinery bearings were made to be able to stand
temperature, wear, and high stress.. depending on the application.
Actually, I have found you CAN 'massage' out the indifferences in
fits in certain cases.. and you can try it with a little Prussian
bluing and some high grit emery or sandpaper. Greg
(13982) |
| Greg, I
believe the field of lubrication is called tribology; don't ask me
why. I am fascinated by the things I have learned as a lurker on
this group. The plain bearings on the old SouthBends were really
optimum for the use technology they had at the time; i.e. slow speeds,
low cost, high (not ultra) precision long life. They still make
sense for those conditions ( my Model A spindle lasted 60 years, and
if I get the ambition to reassemble it, another 60, God Willing.)
Mike
(13988) |
| I
group. The use Actually tribology is the science that looks at "how
things rub together". If you wanted to build a better clutch then
you use tribology. I suppose that if you want to minimize as well as
maximize friction it is still covered and in that sense lubrication
can be looked at as a branch of tribology. However the aspect of
making things less slippery is an important aspect. Jim B. (13990) |
| Well you
know.. I just have to ask about Tribology.. LoL. I too am fasicnated
at things I learn every day here. And, yes according to my latest
dict-o-matic tribology is the study of friction (how things rub
together). Well, I'm not an expert.. but call me that anything I may
say make half decent sense LoL. I'm still on the way to finishing my
SB project.. someone I dealt with on Ebay helped me out a little
there. I've found that Plain bearings are pretty reliable if used in
a really adequate proper condition.. and they really don't wear much
out of it's life unless someone does the worst things one can do to
a bearing.. let alone to the rest of the machine(s). Well, anyhow..
I'd just put an extra $0.03 in the change jar of this box. (13993) |
| Cast iron
spindle bearings? |
| The
spindle bearings for the 9" Model C SB lathe I'm acquiring has what
looks like segmented cast iron spindle bearings. I've never seen
bearings like that.. can anyone enlighten me? In addition, this
lathe is missing the Horizontal Drive Unit and could use a new
halfnut. Does anyone have these parts for sale or direct me to a
sources that does. I might try and adapt a 10 " qc box to this
lathe.. looks like it would fit. I would then need a different apron
and lead screw. Anybody try this? (14768) |
| There is a
good description of the integral cast iron bearing on the SBL
website. They are unique. RC (14770) |
| It looks bad,
bearings |
| Well, heres some
pics of my cast iron bearings. IT looks very bad, explains why the
scuffing on the spindle.
http://home.comcast.net/~billh308/frontbrg.jpg
http://home.comcast.net/~billh308/rearbrg.jpg tell me the truth, I'm
a man, is it terminal? When I bought the lathe few days ago, it was
smooth, I can probably still use it as is, run it into the ground,
then get a new headstock I guess. Also, I couldn't find the shims,
because they were painted over, but the Flash on my camera brought
them out I think, Are those the shims? also need a new rear oiler it
looks like.
(15760) |
| Looks like that rear bearing is pretty well shot! I have
not replaced bearings in one yet so maybe some others can help in
how to do that. It maybe a good option for you to find another
headstock on ebay or from one of the members here that has one Randy
more than likely has one I know that I have seen at least two
recently up for bids on ebay and buy it now options From the pix you
showed yesterday, the spindle still looks usable, if you plan on
fitting bearings, you can machine the spindle to clean it up for a
fresh surface and fit the bushings to match If you get another HS,
then you could rebuild the existing one in your spare time Keep us
posted as to which options you go with. Clint
(15761) |
| Clint, rear bearing felt was below the spindle, bad spring it looks
like. I also wonder if the previous owners used motor oil for the
spindles... Well, I knocked out the shim, took 1 layer off, now I
have way too much gap. I suppose I could buy some feeler gauges, and
make shims from them? replaced that. or from one and buy it if you
up for a your spare bearings. bad, probably headstock but shims?
(15763) |
| Bill feeler
gauges or shim stock from MSC, etc. I like using feeler gauges
because they come cheap! and I am CHEAP, (g) It kind of looks like
the spindle could have been run dry? Also it looks like somehow
some metal shavings were in there? or it looked that way in the pix.
Clint
(15765) |
| Brass shim
stock is a better choice. If it rubs the spindle it won't do the
damage that stainless shim stock could. JP (15767) |
| Bill- the
pics you posted came up a little fuzzy for me. metals sometimes do
not photo well. I agree that the bearings might look good in the
pics that you posted, but I think its important that you objectively
asses the situation before you start down the path of changing
bearings, trying to find a headstock, etc. you have to look/feel to
determine how bad it is. 1. you said that the spindle seemed fine
before you took it apart. Was it? did you check deflection with a
bar like the maintenance manual. did it run quiet or did make nose,
feel hot, etc.... 2. personally, I would be less concerned about
radial scoring as I would be about any longitudinal scoring. How
does the spindle look? also, I would judge the percentage of good
bearing vs scored bearing. if the half of the rear bearing and
spindle are ok, and the back half is shot, you still have a bearing
supporting the spindle. granted, it's half of the original, but it
could be quite serviceable. obviously the longevity of that bearing
is obviously shortened but its still there. Remember, what damage is
done is done. the real proof is going to be how the machine cuts. it
may not LOOK good, but until you have physical evidence that it is
bad then don't loose sleep over it. I am not saying that it is ok,
but i am also saying that its also not a catastrophic loss either.
too many people have automatically assumed that because of a minor
defect they have to spend $$$$ to make it perfect again. keep in
mind that no matter how well you maintain it, parts are going to
wear over a lifetime of use/abuse. if it was me, I would first see
how it ran and cut. if it was not right, then I would look into my
options. I would rather trust half an original bearing over the risk
of boring and sleeving a new bearing and ground spindle. there are
too many operations there to make mistakes on. dennis
(15768) |
| Yes those are
the shims. It looks like you need new Wicks. There are large areas
of your journal which are in good condition. Clean up the journal.
Be sure you don't have any cast iron pieces projecting. Be sure that
there is no cast iron welded to the spindle. (Its not THAT bad).
Clean out the oil wells. Do a good job here. Replace the new wicks.
Hold them down with small rods through the holes above the filler.
Install the spindle. Don't bother with the pulley or bull gear.
Tighten the journals. Check the play. If needed adjust. The shims
are laminated they peal off. Jim B. (15776) |
| I removed 1 layer, now have too much gap, going to use
feeler gauge for shim. I tightened the cap screws to a point where
there is no play, and no binding. The grooves in the bearings are
not longitudinal, so that is good. I am going to replace the wicks,
flush out the headstock, get all impurities out of there, oil like
crazy with spindle oil, and just use it. As a side note, I noticed
the previous owner installed a zero backlash halfnut on the cross
feed, very smooth and nice.
(15780) |
| Bill Good
deal then, I think you will be fine, also once you get it running
and any play adjusted, after running a while then feel the HS at
each bearing area, this should feel warm but not hot if hot you may
need to loosen just a tad till it just runs warm Probably good that
you tore things down this gave you a chance to clean things up and
making sure it is oiling properly Clint IT looks bad, tell me like
it is, bearings.
(15785) |
| Bill, I've
been out-of-town for a while and I've just caught-up with the
backlog of posts. You mentioned that you removed 1 layer of shim and
the gap was too much. Are you referring to the gap between the
bearing cap and the main casting? Bearing clearance or "play" is
measure with the spindle in place and the caps tightened down.
Before you go further, your pictures seem to convey to me that you
are down to the aluminum spacer shim that was originally under the
laminate shims. Is this the "layer" you removed? Is so, this is
going to be too much. All of the 9 inch and 10K lathes I have worked
on came with an aluminum spacer shim and a laminate shim pack on top
of that. It looked like you are missing the laminate shim pack. If
this is the case, then you will need to replace the solid aluminum
shim with a laminated shim pack. I don't know this for a fact but I
always assumed that the solid aluminum shims were there so that when
the headstock and spindle had worn down and the laminate shims were
all removed, the user could remove the solid shims and replace them
with another laminate shim pack and extend the life of the
headstock. Your plan to use individual shim will work but I find
trying to cut a bunch of shims and keep them completely flat hard to
do. As an alternative, you could buy laminate shim stock from SBL or
from a supply house (like McMaster-Carr). Webb
(15898) |
| When I first
posted, I removed the veneered shims from the aluminum one. I didn't
get it that the small shim could be peeled at first. The shims were
so bent and crumpled out of shape that it made it hard to see it.
Took an exacto blade and noticed that I could peel the small one.
Anyhow, I'm going to make new shims out of brass. Going to make them
thick enough that some feeler gauges will only be needed to fine
tune it. I figure its lot cheaper than going thru McMaster or sbl.
Also a fun little project. I had an idea, I'm going to take a
jewelers
saw blade for cutting metal, and mount it to my scroll saw to cut
the new shims. The blades are not meant for it, but it should work.
(15901) |
| Correct
position of 10K headstock brg? |
| There is a groove
machined into the iron headstock casting. Your bronze bearing
mustn't abut it. The bronze bearings for the 10k are so oversize
that you can afford to remove some of the surface. I tried to
enlarge the oil return hole (using a Dremel with a steel burr NOT a
stone) but that did not help either. Anyway, your bearing should NOT
be flush with the edge of the headstock casting and the groove must
be free. If necessary take out the bronze sleeve and shorten it and
put in a new oil hole. As I said, I had this exact problem. Have you
tried the very thin gasket between the inner thrust plate and the
headstock? Any large machine supply co has spindle oil. I am in my
office now so don't have it in front of me, but I think I use Mobil
Vactra brand. I buy it from MSC or from Enco when they have free
shipping! Try the gasket - that might do it Frank
(18432) |
| Carson:
Canadian Supplier for oil and other industrial items is KBC Tools
and Machinery. 1-800-668-5616 or 1-888-522-8665. They have offices
in Vancouver. Spindle oils listed are ISO 10,15,22 and 32. Ron
(18433) |
| Carson, Those
little grooves (dovetail shaped) are to catch the spindle oil and
channel it down to a return channel drilled back to the oil
reservoir under the springy felt wicks. Make sure the 4 grooves and
the 4 channels are clear. Flush with kerosene or solvent and a
toothbrush and Q-tips. If you are losing oil from the ends of the
bearings, then this might solve your problem. One of mine was
blocked with 'spooge'. Otherwise, fill the reservoirs full of
kerosene, look for where it leaks out, and address that issue. There
might be other causes that I don't know about. I just did this on my
10K. Dean
(18434) |
| Spindle
bearing adjustment |
| I am
putting my headstock back together and need some help on the
procedure of setting the headstock bearings? I went to the faq's but
find that the scans, for me, are unreadable. Can someone can tell me
how it is done, or if you readable drawings, it would be very
helpful. Ed
(18441) |
| What do
you mean by un-readable? if your browser is loading them but you are
not seeing them, are you scrolling up-down side to side? They are jpg's so just about anything will handle them.
You may want to save
them locally too.
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/southbendlathe/files/Techinfo/Bearing_Adjustment/ dennis
(18442) |
| Ed- sorry, my
bad. It seems that only heavy10 and up is in there. regardless, the
procedure is similar. You will have laminated shims to deal with. Anyone have the 9"/10K" info to put in the files section? dennis
(18443) |
| I went brain dead and forgot that the jpg's read a lot
better if you print them out. "SPINDLE ADJUSTED, ON TO THE NEXT
STEP. Ed (18450) |
| Adjusting My
Large Spindle Bearing |
| I did a
movement test on my spindle the other day and found it to be
over.010" . I checked out the files section and it gives a great
blow by blow way to work in this area but do I have to totally
remove the spindle to just try and snug up the large bearing? My
intuition is to just follow the directions to the point I can remove
some of the shims, reassemble and retest. Am I wrong in my
thinking? If I have to do a total teardown I should try to get the
felts and everything ahead of time. I'm handy with machinery but
don't want to hurt this old beauty. I should mention for other
newbies how I noticed the problem in the first place. I was parting
off a piece of steel ( my famous first thread cutting operation) and
noticed something rather odd. As the cutter got down to almost the
center of the cut the work seemed to jump a tiny amount. At first I
thought it was my eyes or my meds .It wasn't though. The work could
move so much the cutoff tool could not get to the center to cut.The
work would just ride up over the carefully set cutter and leave me a
"stem" that defied cutting. I'm sure this would have raised flags
with the folks that have some experience but to me it didn't click
in for a few days of thought. Anyway I contacted the previous owner
and he said he had rebuilt the bearing but may have left it a bit
loose .I can see a stack of shims that can be removed a few at a
time under the cap so I'm thinking to remove just a few thou at a
time (from both sides) and recheck. How am I doing with the plan so
far ? I still love my baby even though she isn't as perfect as I
first thought. It's just like a marriage, you don't notice the flaws
until you've been together for a while :-) Thanks for any advice. I
need some input to get up the nerve to do the job later today, health
permitting and all. Tom
(18717) |
| .010 is a lot
of movement. I hope your bearings aren't that worn. Yes take shims
out until the play goes away. You don't have to take the spindle
out. I can wiggle my spindle about .0009. That is almost to tight
because at high speed it starts to get a little warm and can hear
the motor working harder. I need to add a .001 shim just on one
side. In your case you are going to have to remove a lot on both
sides at first. Then add or take out one at a time from one side
then the other (alternate the sides) to get the right play. If you
run out of shims before you get within the tolerance then you got a
big expense a head of you. Hope this helps. Gary (18718) |
| I've
been all through this. The Allen head screws on the bridge across
the bearings (bearing caps), are bearing expanders. Check these out
first. REMEMBER, these are spreaders so backing them out (unscrewing
them counterclockwise) tightens the fit on the spindle shaft, and
tightening them (screwing them in clockwise) will loosen the fit
between the bearing and the spindle. This is not obvious unless you
have had it all apart and have seen how it works first hand. I would
try first to adjust the spindle bearings. Loosen the belt to get all
tension off the spindle. Loosen both front and back bearings by
screwing the adjustment screws clockwise. Adjust the front bearing
first. Turn the adjustment screws counterclockwise until the spindle
begins to seize. Than back it off a little by turning it clockwise
just enough to free it up. Then do the same with the rear bearing.
If this doesn't work, then you can go to playing with the shims.
Perk (18720) |
| And if the
bearing caps need to come off for any reason those expander screws
must be *removed* first.
(18724) |
| Tom, Its a
simple and straight forward process so don't sweat it. You need a
repeatable dial indicator and some patience. Do both bearings while
you are at it, one at a time. Don't take out .01 in shims to remove
.01 in play. Take out half or less of what you think you need and
recheck it. Do it a number of times until you get it to .001
Remember to remove the screws from the expander before removing the
bearing cap and installing and tightening them back up before
rechecking it with the lift test. Save the shims you remove and
remember which spot they came out of in case you have to put them
back in. JP (18727) |
| It seems
to me that adjusting the "tightness" of the bearing sleeve won't
help with the spindle having movement up and down. I'm not a pro at
this but have been around bearings a lot in my career and I think
that the bearing cap itself probably need to be lowered (remove
shims) to stop the movement then adjust the expanders if need be to
get a free turning shaft. I could be way wrong here as I have never
had my spindle bearings apart but this is how I think it should
work. JP suggested removing shims first like I thought. Anyone else
have any experience with this operation? I'm going to try it out
today if I can. Tom (18741) |
| JP, I
follow your tip but am stumped by the term "repeatable dial
indicator" I have several indicators but don't know what you mean by
repeatable. Could someone tell me what it means? I have to learn
something new and this will do just fine for today. Tom
(18742) |
| Tom, He just
means that the same measurement made twice will give the same
result. I have a Logan Actuator coffee mug that advises "measure
twice, cut once". Glen (18743) |
| Loosen
expander screws. Torque cast-iron top to specs. Measure u-down-
spindle movement. Add or remove shims as needed, but ALWAYS TORQUE
TO SPECS. When you get very close you make final adjustment with
expanders but remember that there is very little room to move the
bearing so you need to get close with shims at the proper torque.
Do not try to get the proper movement by using greater or lesser
torque. Frank
(18745) |
| A fairly good
one, one that repeats the same measurement each time you measure the
same thing. I didn't want to use the term 'good indicator' because I
didn't want you to think you have to go out and buy a very expensive
one. JP (18746) |
| Frank, What
is the torque spec? Somewhere I heard 'fairly tight'; what number
does that equal? I would guess 40 ft-lb on the cap screws being that
they are 3/8 UNC and they go into cast iron. Do you have an official
number? JP (18747) |
| That's right
Tom, the shims lower the caps but the expanders move the bearing
tightly into the headstock bore. The bearing springs closed on the
spindle. You won't get an accurate reading when you measure unless
the screws on them are tightened up. There is an adjustment for the
thrust bearing. It is a threaded shaft collar and it is near the rear
bearing. Loosen the screw on this and loosen it on the spindle about
1 or 2 turns. This makes working on the rear bearing easier. It is a
repetitive process. Bring your front bearing in close to spec, then
adjust the rear bearing and then check and adjust the front one if
needed. To adjust the thrust bearing back up, first oil it and then
tighten the shaft collar until you begin to feel a change in drag
when rotating the spindle by hand. Then loosen it 3/8 inch or about
10 degrees. Then tighten up the locking screw. JP (18748) |
| Did I miss a
torque spec for the bearing caps on the heavy 10? If so would
someone repeat it? Paul
(18749) |
| I have
learned what you mean. Tom (18750) |
| Tom Are
you getting your bearings back into adjustment? I am just curious
if you got it down to with in specs. I love this board. So much
info here. I learned a lot from here and by doing things on my
heavy 10. Word of caution!!! don't tighten the little screws to the
expander to much! I broke the lip right off of my smaller one. Just
snug them up. If the spindle won't turn with them snug up then you
will have to take shims out. They are $85 + shipping from Leblond. I
made a temporary one for mine. Still would like to find a good use
one of the original kind to put back in. Gary (18751) |
| Gary, I
haven't been feeling well enough to try yet today. I will get dressed
to go out and get sick, and then have to get undressed again g
unusual day for me. I am still going to give it a try maybe tonight g
guess you can see why it's such a big deal for me to even get my
first threading operation actually finished g and it's so relaxing
once I actually get going on a project g certainly post what ever
happens. Tom
(18752) |
| There,
Someone was asking for the torque for the spindle bearing caps. To
be honest, I don't know what SBL recommends. I have never seen a
spec. for it. I do have a pamphlet on torque and the proper use of
torque wrenches and contained therein, is a "General Torque
Specification Chart." The chart covers various bolt diameters and
grades. For example, a 3/8" bolt: Grades 1 2 - 15 Ft. Lbs.; Grade 5
- 25 Ft. Lbs.; Grade 6 - 34 Ft. Lbs.; Grade 8 - 37 Ft. Lbs. I think
the bolts on the spindle bearing caps are 3/8" Grade 5. That would
make the torque 25 Ft. Lbs. Please correct me if someone has more
specific information on this. Webb
(18759) |
| They may be
7/16 and they are alloy cap screws which are stronger than grade 8.
They seem to like 5/16 and 7/16 a whole lot. JP (18763) |
| A couple of
points here: 1Where did you say these expander screws are? 2.My SBL
has a split cap. Getting the shims out can be difficult. Any tips for
doing this? 3.With all the talk about adjusting, not one word has
been said about running the headstock up to running temp. prior to
adjusting. Is this not important as heat will cause the bearings to
expand? 4.If anyone is looking for industrial grade 55gal. drums, go
to a floor tile store. They have really good drums of very heavy
poly. The drums will contain a latex glue called Caralastic. Cut the
top off the drum and allow the leftover glue to harden (the glue has
an odor!). Then peel it off in large sheets. Clean as you see fit. I
use mine to collect rainwater. They can had for $5 or even nothing
since they are non- returnable. Ron
(18765) |
| I
respectfully disagree. If the spindle doesn't turn with the
expanders snugged up then you must ADD shims, not remove them! Frank
(18766) |
| I don't know
the specs on the heavy ten, but on my 10k the torque, according to
Randy at SB, is 30 foot-pounds. so adjust accordingly. Frank
(18769) |
| ++ You
must have a 9 or 10K. In these lathes you have to dig out the shims,
ruining them and you have to put in new ones. ++ ++++heat will
cause bearing to expand; surrounding cast iron expands, the bearing
ID therefore does not get smaller. SB specs do not mention making
the adjustment whilst hot and I assume they mean to do it when
everything is at room temp. ++++++++ Garden-supply centers
often stock 55 gal plastic drums, sort of rust-colored, that were
used to ship olives from Italy to the US. they cannot be reused for
food. They have a screw-on top which is convenient. My cellar does
not have a drain so I use one of these to catch the water from my
shop sink and pump it out to the waste line with a sump pump. These
are nice barrels - they have a plastic grate on the bottom, raised
about an inch off the bottom - this lets the crap fall down and it
can be removed latter. My local garden center also sells them with a
plastic spigot at the bottom for draining (use them for catching
rainwater) Frank
(18771) |
| Frank you are
right. You have to add shims to let the spindle turn. I knew that
but my brain must of been some where else at that second I was
typing it. Sorry for the error. Gary (18773) |
| First
off thank you Frank for the kind thoughts. I'll take all the
assistance I can get. Well last night I went and took my bearing
covers off. The original vertical movement was around 8-10 thousand
in both the large and small bearing of my Heavy Ten. You would expect
that it should be straight forward to just remove some shims and get
it back to specs, right? Well guess what. It was a real mess in
there. The shims were 4 times as thick on one side as the other in
the small bearing .014" vrs .003".The large bearing had .019" vrs
.012".The worse was yet to come. The bearing expanders have been
altered to the point where they no longer act as expanders but just
sit there taking up space. Someone had removed the angled sides of
both expanders and there is no way they can exert any force on the
bearing lips at all. The spindle shaft looked very nice (no scoring
to speak of as far as I can see) I wasn't deterred at all and simply
evened up the shims per side and removed a small amount from each
bearing. After a couple of tries and making some of my own shims from
shim stock I have some form of success. with a couple of problems
that aren't too bad considering the situation I now have a vertical
movement of only .0015" in both ends. I ran the lathe carefully in
backgear lowest speed for some time and it worked itself out pretty
well.I then moved up in speed to the small flat pulley and no
backgear. The small bearing started to get warm to the touch at this
point. The belt wants to slip as well when starting. I have never run
my lathe this fast and don't see any problem with the slower speeds
I do use. I have to add that the only control I have on the tightness
of my bearing around the spindle is by carefully setting the torque
on the cap bolts. I know this is a bad way to do things but it is all
I can see to do with what I have and the end result is ok by me for
now. When I get rich and famous I will order a new set of expanders
and some proper shim stock and fix it all proper. BTW where would I
get them at a reasonable price, if at all?. I have to say it took all
night( 11:00 could do it in an hour or two :-) I had a wonderful
time and felt great while I was doing it although I'm paying the
price today. It wasn't half as scary as I had thought even with the
problems. If you are thinking of doing the job just go ahead and
check things out under the caps, it isn't difficult at all. You can
check things out and get a fright like I did though . I had a lot of
fun and felt useful again. One last thing. Can anyone tell me what
the spindle speeds are for the Heavy Ten from standard running thru
the backgears? I had planned on borrowing a strobe tach from my work
but had to go off sick before I got around to it. I can't find the
speeds anywhere in any of the files I can open in the group files. So
any help would be much appreciated Oh yes is it ok for the bearings
to get warm (not really hot) to the touch? Thank you all very much
for the assistance with this project so far. I think I am not
finished, just yet. Tom
(18777) |
| Tom Glad
you did it! Scary at first then it al makes sense! I use plastic
shims - you can get a selection of them from MSC or ENCO or any of
those. They are quite useful to have around. It's much too expensive
to buy a "peelable" SB shim kit, which, I am told, don't peel very
well anyway. At least now, you have a going machine! Have fun! I
have a "light" 10 (10K) so do not know your spindle speeds - someone
on this list will probably know. frank
(18779) |
| Tom, Its in
HTRAL low speed 700, 434, 277, back gear 129, 79, 50. JP (18781) |
| Bearing some
improvement |
Well, I stuck a
piece of tool steel in the chuck and turned a new motor shaft for #2
sphere-grinder. No 'barber-poling, good finish. Now I have another
question. I have the tool steel to do it but I want an opinion. The
stud-gears are loose from fighting wars and high school kids making
zip-guns. I could make brass sleeves that would have .015 wall
thickness, OR I could make new studs to match the worn gear
bores. What is better? Right now, my gear train sounds like the
midnight special through the boneyard. It would involve
single-pointing some threads for each stud, haven't taken a real
close look as yet. regards, Ron
(18812) |
| If at first you
don't have time to machine - cheat! I would suggest skimming the
studs to a proper regular diameter and shimming them with premade
presized bronze bushing stock, or even shimming them with strips of
steel or brass shim stock cut to fit the circumference ( I just
finished restoring/refitting an egghole-worn plastic part for a
lawnmower steering gear by doing this, didn't have a suitable piece
of stock at hand to make a new one out of aluminum and I didn't have
the time or intention to make the whole thing over out of stainless
or carbon plate stock). At some time later when sanity has returned
and the project pile is smaller, you can either reweld and resize
the shafts, make new ones, or sleeve them with steel and weld or
braze together. BTW, make sure that your gear bores are not rough,
eggy, or tapered - they can trash the new shafts quickly if they
are. your new studs may want to be hardened silversteel in this
case. those SB gears are real dang hard, I wouldn't trust anything
but a toolpost grinder to true them up inside and then you would
need to do all to the same diameter, then make your studs. the
option would be to reweld the bores and recut the proper diameter,
another good job for a TP grinder. Ron
(18832) |
| I would ream or
bore the gear bores round and a fractional size and make new shafts
from O1 stock. The finish is already ground and you can get it in
1/64 increments. JP (18837) |
| 10k bearing
question |
| I just pulled the
spindle out of a 10K I bought some time ago, I am going to use a
serpentine belt. The lathe has a bronze bushing in both ends of
the head stock. There is a small retainer that holds it from turning
within the casting. I looked on SBs website and see no reference to
this design. It does look "factory" to me, so I don't think this was
a repair. I was unable to use the holes to hold down the felts when
I put it back together but there is a small gap at the bottom of
each bearing to put a soft wire in to hold felt.
(18868) |
| I think the
"retainer" of which you speak is the "expander" and there is a lot
of discussion in the archives about its function and how to use it
to adjust the bearings. If you can't use the holes to hold down the
felt wicks, take out the oil cups and use that opening to stick a
wire in to hold down the felts while re-inserting the spindle. Frank
(18869) |
| Thrust bearing
|
| On my Southbend 9"
lathe, end thrust on the aim spindle is taken up by a nut which
backs up against a fabric washer. I understand that this fabric
washer can be replaced with a ball thrust bearing thin enough to fit
into the available space. Can someone give me the statistics on that
bearing (number, size, etc)? DB
(19191) |
| It's not a
ball but roller thrust bearing. I didn't have the specs here, but
there is a lot about this in the archives. Well worth doing. The
bearing and the two thrust plates cost about 7 bucks and the you can
take out all the end-play from the spindle. It really makes a
difference! Frank
(19201) |
| McMaster Carr
part numbers Quan. 1 5909 K39 steel needle-rolled thrust bearing $
6.90 Quan 2 5909 K53 .031 thick washer for 1-3/8 |
