| Measuring wear on the v-way
length? (Mar 28, 2001) |
Lathe bed (Jul 6, 2003) |
| acceptable wear on bed ways
(Dec 17, 2001) |
Fixing ways? (Oct 1,
2003) |
| Heavy 10 bed (Feb 21,
2002) |
Bed replacement (Nov 20,
2003) |
| Heavy 10 bed or 9 bed
(Feb 22, 2002) |
Bed woes (Dec 17, 2003) |
| Ways dimensions on SB lathes
(Aug 18, 2002) |
How to tell if a SB has hardened
ways? (Mar 22, 2004) |
| 10K Hardened ways (Oct
12, 2002) |
Difference in ways (May
17, 2004) |
| Bed replacement (Oct 21,
2002) |
Bed Burrs Question (Jun
16, 2004) |
| Lathe Beds (Dec 3, 2002) |
What is acceptable bed wear?
(Sep 8, 2004) |
| Bed evaluation (Jan 13,
2003) |
Bed wear question? (Oct
15, 2004) |
| Nicks on the ways (Mar
30, 2003) |
1936 9"B Bed Refurbishment
(Oct 16, 2004) |
| Heavy 10 way dimensions
(Apr 28, 2003) |
Changing the bed on a SB9A
(Jan 18, 2005) |
| Chrome ways (May 17,
2003) |
Question about bed length
(Jan 26, 2005) |
| |
| Measuring wear on the v-way
length? |
| I am
in the process of acquiring a 10" South Bend Lathe and would like to
know how you measure wear over the length of the bed with accuracy
to 0.001". I want to find this out first, so I don't set it up and
then discover that I should have gotten the bed reground.
Jim (415) |
| I mounted a magnetic stand and
dial indicator on the carriage. Indicate off the flat tailstock way
(usually very little wear) that is the closest to the V way (the
worn one). Crank the carriage from one end of the lathe to the
other. You can put some downward force on the carriage corner
nearest the indicator just to make sure you take up any play. The
indicator should push in as the carriage drops lower near the worn
part of the way (near the headstock). Scott (418) |
| acceptable wear on bed ways |
| I am wondering what
people in this group consider to be an acceptable amount of wear on
the V-shaped ways of the lathe bed. I have an
old Heavy 10 with less than .005" of maximum wear (vertical) from
the saddle rubbing over the V-ways of the lathe bed, around an area
not far from the headstock. Far from this area, there is no apparent
wear. As long as the wear is purely vertical, rather than
horizontal, I am figuring that this is not going to affect accuracy
very much, because of the following trigonometry argument: For a
1-inch diameter shaft that is being turned, the amount of radial
error that will be introduced from a toolbit being misaligned
vertically by .005" is: 0.500" X [1 - cos(.005"/.500")] = 0.500" X
[0.00005]= 0.000025" This is much less than errors that will be
introduced from other problems with the lathe.
What are other people's thoughts about
this? Am I missing something important here? I don't want to regrind
or rescrape my lathe bed unnecessarily. Jon
(2460) |
| I buy that. Now what if the bed
is worn more in the front than in the back, making it effectively
twisted? I'll guess the center height is probably about half the
distance between the ways, so I think you would see an error in your
cut depth of around half of any difference in the wear from front to
back. Not sure of that, just thinking out loud... Chris Stratton PS
- I'm lucky in a way, while the parts I make need to be very smooth
with no cyclic or periodic errors, most of them are tapered and I
don't have to hold absolute tolerances over long distances.
Christopher (2461) |
| Yes, that makes
sense. If the wear is uneven, I suppose the best way to check the
effective twist is with a precision ground cylinder carefully
mounted. Then use that as a reference, with an indicator placed
where the toolbit would go, checking for horizontal misalignment.
Scraping either the front or rear bed way the extra amount could
compensate for uneven vertical wear.
(2463) |
| Surf over to
www.mermac.com and read the "klunkers" write-up. If the machine
makes acceptable parts, then the wear is acceptable. Ken (2470) |
| My lathe has a bit of wear on the ways, more in
front [seems the previous owner may have had a habit of not
loosening the carriage lock completely before engaging the
leadscrew--don't ask me how I figured this one out]...and I'm not
going to say that the error introduced is more than the measurement
error induced by inconsistency of my micrometer technique on the
workpiece. Even if the wear were enough to throw the levelness off
by 5 degrees [a half-inch across 6 inches--sin5=.087 and
.087x6=.522] the worst effect is that an indicated .001 on the
cross-slide would actually be .000996 [cos5.0=.996]...and I'm not
sweating .000004 because any workpiece I can possibly fixture
springs more than that. I get more inaccuracy from the tool not
being exactly on the centerline, and without gazillion-dollar laser-unobtanium
accoutrements to get it right THERE, that's just the way it is.
Having the tool .020" below center on a 1" dia workpiece means I'm
about 1.5 degrees below centerline [for that diameter
piece--sin1.5=.02] and therefore since cos1.5=.9997, it causes
.0003-per-inch worth of error in the cross-slide reading...which if
just fine; I'd rather take an extra cut than start over. I get more
inaccuracy from the taper induced by the fact the indicator line for
the compound protractor on the cross slide is [and always has been]
off by about 15 minutes of arc when using the compound set to 0
degrees [compound leadscrew parallel to bedways] for short
cuts...that error alone adds up to almost .0009 per inch and it has
been there since day one. Besides, anytime I'm working to THAT close
a tolerance any of this becomes relevant, I'm so far out of my
skillset's league it isn't funny. Anything requiring that close a
tolerance is likely something I'll likely turn oversize and send out
for centerless grinding to get the finish I need anyway. To put it
in perspective, any and all of the above errors don't amount to that
induced by a pinhead spec of swarf getting under the carriage where
it rides on the ways. Anytime I have a *real* accurate piece to make,
the first thing I do is disassemble the compound and carriage and
solvent-wipe the ways to remove any dust or debris. (2474) |
| This analysis is
probably right in the sense that moving the cross slide a given
distance will cause a change in the cut depth which is very nearly
what was dialed in, even with substantial tilt to the carriage.
However, if the carriage is tilted due to twist in the bed, then
very larger errors in cut depth could appear along the length of the
workpiece as the carriage traverses over the bed. At any point an
incremental move of the cross slide will still have nearly the same
effect, but the cut depth achieved with a locked slide could vary by
an amount equal to half or more of the bed twist. However the wide
spacing on the bearing surfaces of a typical carriage may give you
some protection, and many long turnings would need to be supported
by a follower rest which would largely take out the effect of bed
twist. The problem would thus be most serious if taking a long cut
on a workpiece that is large enough in diameter to be self supported
over a long distance. Chris (2476) |
| Heavy 10 bed
|
| I have a heavy
10 with a 4 ft bed in a 1943 configuration of one pin gear box. Does
anyone have any experience in replacing this style bed with one with
a newer 2 pin box or bed and box? I have ran 10 in southbends for
over 30 years but never got into the restoring of one and my bed is
old and tired and I would rather replace with a good one than send
off and have reground and all. I would also like to upgrade where
possible as in a longer bed I know I can go to 4.5 with a new screw
but 2 pin box beds are more available if anyone knows if they will
work without major altering. Also how far would one have to go to
change to 2 pin box and all to upgrade that. Any info greatly
appreciated and or whereabouts of nice bed for sale.
Grumpy (3351) |
| I just replaced my
Heavy 10 - 1944 model bed with one from about 1970 vintage. The
newer one was drilled for the two lever box, but I just transferred
over all my other stuff. Works fine. I did need to drill one hole in
the side to mount the lead screw cover, just right of the gearbox.
The holes in the newer bed lined up with my gearbox and the feet
from my old 4 1/2 ft bed fit just fine. Since the new bed was only 4
feet I had to cut off the lead screw some and turn the end down to
fit the tailstock end bearing. Good luck finding a lathe bed in
good, I just got lucky! B.G. (3358) |
| B. G. I thought the bed would interchange if a guy knew
what he was doing but I never tried. Do you have any idea after
doing that if a complete gearbox upgrade to 2 levers would be a
major trick or not. I am guessing it would be easy if a guy had all
the gears from the box to the point where it would be completely
changed over and the pull push stick taken out. Any Idea since you
have looked closer at this project than I . Grumpy
(3360) |
| I'd just look for a
complete lathe with a bad spindle, carriage etc but with the
gearbox, bed and lead screw, and maybe you could transfer over your
spindle, tail stock and etc, I think you get the idea. I could sell
you my old 4 1/2ft bed and you could have it re-ground. B.G.
(3365) |
| Heavy 10 bed or
9 bed |
| Somewhere in
southern Ohio is a 3 foot bed in excellent condition for a 9 inch
SB. It should be hanging out with both castings for a countershaft.
Some how FedEx decided I didn't need my new cast iron and lost all
three of the castings. Can someone tell me how 100 pounds of cast
iron can just disappear? Gee, and I thought only UPS could do
something like this. So it looks like I am still in need of the two
castings for the countershaft and the handle. I didn't need the bed
and I would have preferred to have a longer one but this one was
supposed to be in excellent condition and I was going to use it for a
project. I am going to try and mount a gear box from a heavy 10 on a 9
inch lathe. Any one have a extra set of castings for a countershaft?
Gerald (3359) |
| Did you need the
rear drive or underneath drive version. Glen (3369) |
| Gerald, Are you
needing the castings for the rear drive unit? I just bid on ebay for
the main drive wheel. I should have everything but the shaft,
overcenter handle and rods and the oil cups for the main leg. If
Glen can't help you let me know. I though you adapted the
Non-adjustable unit. Tom (3372) |
| Gerald, I just bid
on a handle on E-Bay. I haven't won it yet. I did win the main drive
wheel. I don't think I have the smaller drive pulley. Tom (3374) |
| Tom, I did adapt
the fixed one to suit my purpose which was to get the lathe up and
running but I would really like to covert it over to the correct
countershaft. I won the two castings for the counter shaft for $30
total and I was hoping to get it finished. Gerald (3377) |
| Gerald, I'll have
to see what I have in mine. The e-bay item number for the handle is
1708290172. My max bid is $10. You might keep an eye on it or over
bid me. If your parts/castings aren't going to show up, I'm sure we
can work something out. It might be best if I sent out all the parts
I have and then you could make a shaft and have a fixed stand to
sell. Let me know. Tom(3393) |
| Ways dimensions
on SB lathes |
| I have an SB 11"
lathe that's worked well for me but didn't come with much tooling. I
need to get a steady rest for it, but unfortunately since they
didn't make that many of this model tooling for it is hard to find.
I'm hoping I can find a steady rest for another more common SB model
that will at least sit right on the ways so I can modify its height
to work with my 11. On my SB 11, the distance between the center of
triangular peak on the ways and the center of the flat on the ways
across from it is 4.125" Is this ways dimension shared with any
other SB lathes, such as the 10 or heavy 10? Paul T. (5844) |
| My Heavy 10
measures 3 5/8" or there about (I don't see an easy way to measure
this very precisely) between the center of the triangular peak on
the back inner way and the center of the flat on the front inner
way. So it looks like the heavy 10 is not a good candidate (although
those steady rests are likely pretty expensive anyway). As long as
you are going to find a steady rest from a smaller lathe (like a
10"), and you have to make a spacer anyway, why not make the spacer
accommodate different way configurations? If you make an adapter
with a female V-way spaced 4 1/8" from a suitable flat on the bottom
(to fit your ways), and on the top a male V-way with a different
offset from the center, or 2 V-ways, or 2 flats and edge guides or
whatever (to fit whatever steady rest you can find), I expect you
could use a steady rest from any of many 10" (or 9") lathes. You
could then pick something priced right, and I expect many used
machinery dealers to have a pile of them from various orphan lathes.
I think that getting decent alignment between for instance a single
female V-way on the bottom and a single male V-way on the top would
not be very hard, and a steady rest does not put very tight
constraints on perpendicularity anyway, as far as I can tell. Frank
(5872) |
| 10K Hardened
ways |
| I was
looking at a mid 80's manufactured 10K that is represented to have
hardened bed ways. My South bend experience is limited to older
machines where I have typically used the presence of the "frosting"
remaining on the bed ways to help judge bed wear. This lathe has no
frosting on any portion of the ways. Is this typical for a light
Southbend lathe with hardened ways? Other then the obvious ridges
and nicks can anyone offer any special precautions when evaluating a
lathe with hardened ways?
Jim C (6617) |
| To my knowledge,
SBL put a label on their beds with hardened ways - toward the
tailstock end. I have seen these on 10k lathes. However, my own 10k
does not ha!) said he thought it had hardened ways. Frank (6619) |
| My 1979
manufactured Heavy 10 has flame hardened ways and has a tag affixed
to bed of lathe. These ways were originally ground. Unless the ways
have become tarnished due to rust or stains this grinding can be
easily seen near the headstock area where no wear can occur. This
area can be compared to other areas of the ways which are subject to
wear. I have never checked the hardness of the ways, since I do not
have a portable hardness tester but would be interested in knowing
the hardness. This depth of hardness can extend from about 1/16 inch
to 1/8 depth I have been told. Therefore regrinding of ways can be
accomplished without removing all of the hardened area. (6632) |
| My 1957 heavy 10"
has hardened ways (judged by no scraping or frosting marks anywhere
on the bed, including under the headstock, as well as some judicious
file testing), but no label to that effect. As you note, later heavy
10s I have seen with hardened ways had the label. I don't know when
they started using the labels. For that matter I don't know when
they began offering hardened ways. I see no mention of it in the
1952 catalog. It is offered in the 1957 catalog for lathes 10" and
larger (for about $160 extra on a 4' bed 10" lathe, a notable piece
of change in 1957). The catalog also mentions that the hardness is
Rockwell 50-55 C. Frank (6636) |
| I have a hardened
bed from the 70's for a 10K South Bend. These were of Korean
manufacture. When I bought it, I was told that in earlier models,
the hardened ways were a rarity. I can't remember the exact letter,
but I think it was either 'X' or 'R' in the serial number that
denoted hardened ways in older lathes. Tom (6641) |
| I have a 10K that
is dated 1986. My lathe bed has the hardened ways and they are
smooth with no frosting. The bed has a plate verifying hardened bed
ways. I purchased the lathe from the original owner and I received
all original paperwork. The pictures in the paperwork also verify no
frosting. I hope this helps. Kris (6647) |
| My serial number is
9139RKX14, where the X apparently just means "special" according to
the SB literature. Based on your recollection, perhaps what is
"special" about mine is the hardened ways. Thanks. I had not figured
out what the X meant until now (assuming your recollection about X
is correct). Frank (6649) |
| Bed replacement
|
| I have a sb 9"
model a with a long bed. I would like to replace it with a shorter
bed just to save some room in my small shop. Would it work to use a
model c bed that I have located? Will I have trouble modifying the
model c's lead screw for my gearbox? Do all the holes line up for
the gear box? (6725) |
| The
"C" bed will be missing one hole to mount the gearbox. It would be
much easier to shorten your model "A" leadscrew than modify the "C"
leadscrew. You would have to mill the keyway in the "C" leadscrew
among other things. Glen (6726) |
| One more thing I
would like to add, make sure the shorter bed you get still has the
rack gear with it, or you will need to use the longer one and cut it
down. You really need to keep the longer Rack Gear with the long bed
so it will be easier to sell it. Clint(6730) |
| You can use the
bed, but will need to drill out the 3rd hole that mounts the QC to
the bed, the Mod A leadscrew is easy to cut down to fit the bed, all
you need is turn the end down to fit the bearing and cut it off. It
would not be theasable to try to use the Mod. C leadscrew, if your
Mod A is OK, just use it as I mentioned above. Other than that I can
not think of any thing else that would require ant modifications.
Clint(6731) |
| One more thing to
think about. I would make sure you are swapping the same type of
beds, ie underneath drive or horizontal. I think we are assuming
horizontal drives. What length of bed do you have at the moment?
Some of the other board members might be interested in swapping
parts. Tom (6732) |
| I guess we never
really answered his question of converting a 'C' lead screw to an
'A' lead screw. He might want to convert back to the longer bed
sometime in the future or want to sell the longer bed. The longer
bed would be worth more with its original leadscrew. To convert the
'C' lead screw to 'A', you will need to shorten and thread the left
end and mill a slot along its length. Since you already have and 'A'
lead screw, you could get the dimensions from it. Just subtract the
difference in the bed lengths. The main concern with this is milling
the slot. Many on this board don't have access to a full size
Bridgeport mill or horizontal mill. I would say a horizontal mill
would be best. Still a Bridgeport type mill is capable of this, even
without the right angle head. I would figure out the width and
depth. Clamp the lead screw in one of the slots with many clamps.
Mill an undersized slot (say .020 less) and .005 from final depth
down the length. I would mill in sections, undoing the clamps along
the way. After it is roughed out, then take a cutter of the correct
size. I would think the slot would be .002 over the key width, but
measure your original lead screw. Here's were I'd say experience
would come in. The cutter will pull to one side. I would offset the
mill cut a bit say .001-.002 to comp for this. (practice on a scrap
piece of stock). Still you might not get this with the interrupted
cut due to the threads on the lead screw. Cut in one direction,
clamping and unclamping as you go. You might go back down the
opposite side to widen the slot a bit. It would be better on a
horizontal mill though. Tom (6744) |
| Lathe Beds |
| There are 12 SB 9
or 10K lathe beds in an auction on E-Bay. Some are UND 3-1/2 foot
bed length. The conditions vary. There are some 3 ft A's and C's and
3-1/2 foot A horizontals. I think Bug was looking for a UND. The
item number is 1921879383. They must be picked up. Any need for some
of these beds in the Midwest or East around Pennsylvania. Still
trying to figure out where in NY he's located at. Tom (7716) |
| Tom, et al, He is
in Newburgh NY, about an hour and a half from me. I thought about
buying this and selling them all separately but 12 lathe beds is an
awful lot of metal to move. If there is enough interest, I'll go for
it. Peter (7718) |
| Peter, Where are
you located. I would be in Harrisburg PA over Christmas. Maybe
splitting the lot might help. I think one of our member of the board
needs a 3-1/2 ft UND bed. Still some logistics to work out. If
there's enough interest, I could haul a few south to PA or a bit
beyond and some to the Midwest (i.e. south of Indianapolis). I'll
also have to check and see if my brothers pickup is available or how
many I can stuff into my Ford Contour for the trip home. Who know
maybe the Jeep Comanche can make the drive. Tom (7720) |
Tom, I would gladly
give you $75.00 for a 3 1/2 HD and meet somewhere between NY and OH.
I live in Cleveland, OH. Jim
(7722) |
| I've got a 9" horiz 3.5" bed that I'm using as a door stop. Come take it away.
Dave (7723) |
| I've purchased from
this guy before with mixed results. Dave (7726) |
| Looks like about 40 or 50 miles up the Hudson River
from NYC. Anthony (7733) |
| Dave, I've gotten
some stuff from him off of E-Bay. The pieces have been good. Still,
its hard to judge the condition of the beds. What condition are the
ways on that door stop? I have a bed coming from Ohio, but still
have to determine the condition of the ways. Mass is a bit far to
drive for me. Still someone might be interested in it nearby.
Tom (7734) |
| He's about 50 mi to
the right of White Plains. Along Rt.84 I believe. Dave
(7735) |
| The ways have a
good ole' dip in them. An ambitious soul could scrape it but it's
not gonna be me. This was the original bed that I had on the 9" and
I replaced it with a 4.5" bed that was almost new. I'm moving soon,
just sold my 9" 10" and really have no use for the thing. If it
would be useful to someone they're welcome to it. Dave (7736) |
| His prices aren't
the lowest, but I've never been disappointed with anything I bought
from him. (7737) |
| Exactly, also be
sure to confirm that anything you buy will fit your machine. I've
purchased parts from him made the drive to NY only to find the
actual pieces were for a different style machine and wouldn't work.
If I'm going to buy a couple grand in parts and drive 6hrs round
trip the last thing I want to see is a shrug and "too bad" when the
parts turn out to have been misrepresented. He didn't seem too
concerned about repeat business. He's got a house packed full of
machines that he parts out. I saw some really nice stuff that he'd
taken all apart to sell off individually as parts. I thought it was
kind of a shame. You don't mind so much when it's a work out machine
being used to keep several other going but he proudly showed me a
couple of heavy 10" that he'd found at auction still in the original
parking grease with the delivery parts literature in the drawers.
Toolroom machines with collet closers and taper attachments. First
thing he did after getting them home was to rip each one completely
apart and sold them off piece by piece. He explained that he gets a
lot more for them that way. I just loaded my stuff and left. Dave
(7739) |
| If anyone
buys these beds is going to pick them up personally (or goes there
for any reason) please contact me privately. I m interested in some
Sheldon parts but from what I've seen in this discussion I d prefer
to have someone look at them personally if he has them. Lew (7740) |
| I did win the
auction for the lathe beds. I haven't seen them yet. If anyone needs
a lathe bed let me know. E-mail off list with your name address and
phone number. I will be driving from Indiana to Pennsylvania over
the holidays. If its along the way, I could drop off a lathe bed.
The seller offered to give me some more lathe beds. I'll have to see
the condition of the beds and what prices to charge for them. Tom
(8010) |
| Tom, I would be
interested in a horizontal mount 9". I am in between on your trip,
Cleveland Ohio. Let me know the particulars and I can meet you
somewhere at your convenience. Jim (8017) |
| Tom, I sent you an
email regarding your bed offer. I'm not sure it went out properly.
If you would be so kind, send me an email at
mg.bug@v... bug (8044) |
| To all who replied:
I do have a few request for the UDN lathe beds. Probably at this
point I have sold the three that where listed. The seller did
mention some extra beds. I do have a request from Anthrodes for a
Heavy ten bed. I'll see what he has. For Jim Wilson, I did not get
your phone number. I will be away and out of e-mail over this time.
If you could send your phone number to qbox09 ( I hope he doesn't
mind), I'll see what I can do. I think there was a request from
someone around Cleveland for a UND also. I don't know if I was
bidding against him for the lathe bed in Toleado or not. I stopped
bidding on this item. If you still need a UND bed, you'll have to
leave your number with qbox09. (again I hope he doesn't mind). I am
trying to work out deals, without knowing what I am getting. Also,
I'll be away from my phone, and I don't want to give out other
people's phone number over the general web. I hope people don't get
angry if this deal doesn't work out to their liking. But its a work
in progress. Tom (8046) |
| Bug, This is a
resend. The first one was trash. I am sending my phone number to Tom
via you as he requested. Jim (8056) |
| There weren't to
many usable lathe beds in this deal. The UND beds weren't in any
condition that I'd sell them. One might have been good to be scraped
in. Another, might be repairable with Moglice. I can't be sure of
this as I didn't clean them thoroughly and inspect them real well. I
got two good usable lathe beds and one worn but usable bed and maybe
an Atlas lathe bed out of this. As a note on the UND beds. the two I
saved had an 'X' cast into the bed rib under the headstock
(underneath side). This might be the X that would determine if the
bed was a hardened bed. I sold one of the horizontal beds a 3ft. The
other bed I am keeping and another 3.5ft bed I still have to
determine if its saleable or not. It does have some wear and the
peak or nose is starting to show on the ways. This wasn't worth the
effort to me. Tom (8537) |
| Bed evaluation
|
| With regards to a
9" South Bend, how do you evaluate the condition of the bed? I
understand the use of the carriage lock to indicate that wear is
present in one area compared to an unworn part of the bed. But how
do you quantify (in .001"s) the amount of wear? How much is too
much? Can a straight edge and feeler gauge be used? Finally, how do
you evaluate a used, naked bed? Could a person file off the ridge
that forms at the top of the VEE and make a junk bed appear to be
serviceable? It's a jungle out there. (8671) |
| I have used the
technique that is described in the Connelly " Machine Tool
Reconditioning" book. It is to put a straight edge at right angles
to the ware area with a piece of paper at each end and measure ware
with feeler gages between ends bridging the ware area. Of course
there is ware on both sides of a V way and also ware in the saddle
ways, so the drop could be a fair amount. Most of the 9" SBs out
there have some ware that can partially be corrected for by using
the SB " How to run a lathe" in that you level the bed by the cut
you take on two spaced diameters . Also read the Meridian " In
praise of the Clunker" on his web site. The difference between a
worn bed and getting it reground say for a Heavy 10 is about $ 1000
, so you better be in love with it to get this done. A few guys do
love them so spend the money. Walt (8682) |
| Some how I thought
this was addressed to me and from the guy in Minnesota. I was
referring in the previous post about a horizontal bed I have. Qbox is
looking for an UND bed. Sorry for the confusion. Also, besides the
amount of wear in depth, you have to look at the evenness of wear and
in relation to the length of parts to be machined. Tom (8683) |
| I'll have to
recheck the one bed I have available and see if its good enough to
sell. Determining what I would consider usable or not might be
different than yours or someone else's. As far as filing off the vee,
this wouldn't take care of some of the other problems. The bed would
still be bowed. You would have accuracy problems, since your tool
would be rising and lowering during the cut. Possibly for what work
you want to do, this would be a problem. I would say the wear in a
bed would be somewhere is the .005-.010 range that would be going
bad. More than a few of the beds where beyond that. I think the bed
I have available has about .005 wear, maybe a bit less. I'll try and
inspect it in the next couple of days. Tom (8684) |
| Tom, Sorry if I
caused any confusion. What I was after was the best method to use
for evaluation of a bed. How do you evaluate bed wear on an
assembled machine and also if you are purchasing a "naked" bed.
(8704) |
| The bedways on a
South Bend are a triangle with the apex truncated. The carriage ways
are narrower than the face of the bedway. Any filing-off of the
ridges at the top and bottom of the face of the v-way would narrow
the width of the v-way at the base, which would then be measurable.
Off the top of my head, the drop in the carriage would be equal to
half the amount of the narrowing of the ways at the base for a
90-degree V [90 degree included angle at the apex], and .866 of that
amount for a 60-degree bed [60-degree included angle]. [.866=sin
60]. There's a good article on this at
http://www.homepages.mcb.net/howe/News%20Lathe%20Maintenance.htm Lurch (8706) |
| Qbox, I would say
an easy way to judge a lathe that is assembled is to take a cut off
of an aluminum piece of round stock. Aluminum doesn't create as much
tool nose pressure as steel. Then measure the diameter along the
length of the piece. This should give a good indication of what the
lathe is capable of cutting. This is assuming that the lathe is
properly leveled. There was a thread on leveling SB lathes a while
back. Other lathes have different ways configurations. I was working
on leveling a DnynaMyte 3000H at the time. It has flat ways and 90
degree ways on both rails of the bed. I used parallels and a level.
The SB is not so. You will need two 'V' blocks, and hope to find
some unworn ways sections. I did read the page on the internet site
Lurch posted. I have a few problems with it. First, I'm not sure
what configuration of ways the Myford uses. From the description and
other knowledge, I would think it has Boxed ways. I think the
Europeans like boxed ways. Atlas lathes have boxed ways. I think the
though on them is that they are easier to produce and to regrind.
The 'V' ways are said to provide better side deflection stability.
The other problem I have is using a caliper to measure parts. The
page states .0005 accuracy. I think there is one to many zeros there
for a dial caliper. I wouldn't use a caliper of any sort for +/-
.001. I also think this might be irrelevant for our SB. I guess you
could put a 'V' block over the way section and measure. Still, I
have an Atlas lathe bed I got in that E-Bay deal. It does have some
wear. I don't think measuring with a flat anvil would give the
correct wear. The flat is only worn in about a 1/3 across the
width. If you determine what type of measuring would be accurate with
the lathe bed you are looking at, then I'd use Lurch's suggestion of
about 1/2 of that measure would be the difference of the cut. Its
hard to find a good lathe bed. Its hard to determine from a picture
the amount of wear. Tom (8710) |
| Nicks on the
ways |
| Could anyone
tell me what they have used to remove small nicks in the bed
ways. Scott (10010) |
| Scott, I keep a
Norton hard India stone for this. They are very flat and wear very
little in use. Use with oil. The 1x.5x4 is handiest. MSC sells them.
RichD (10012) |
| I hope that it is
obvious that you only remove the metal displaced upward. You just
live with the depression. (10039) |
| Heavy 10 way
dimensions |
| Does anyone have a
drawing showing the dimensions in cross section of the heavy 10
ways. To be used for making a custom attachment to take on and off
the bed. Otherwise just measuring will be close enough.
(10530) |
| I would assume that
measuring it will be close enough. If you measure 3.36, it probably
is 3.75 and so on. But, that is just a guess. Dave (10533) |
| Chrome ways |
| Bridgeports
are notorious for being worn out in the center. Adjust the gibs,
crank the handles to each end and see if they tighten up. chrome
ways are HARD and do not wear out as fast. Series II Bridgeports
(CNC) are typically chromed as they will last way way longer. it
would go from ground ways, to hardened to chrome as the progression.
Dave (11178) |
| It is my
understanding on Series 1 Bridgeports that the saddle and not the
table ways are chromed. As such the center part of the table itself
still wears, and the gibs become either loose in the center or tight
at the ends, even on machines with chromed ways. Frank
(11181) |
| I have only noticed
the ways being chromed, as I have not taken one apart. I've seen
them chromed on every model so far. not every mill, but at least one
of every model. Not saying that is the answer, but chrome does make
it slipperier so regardless what gets chromed, the life is extended.
Dave not the table ways are chromed. As such the center part of the
table itself still wears, and the gibs become either loose in the
center or tight at the ends, even on machines with chromed ways.
(11184) |
| Lathe bed |
| I am wondering if I
can find a longer lathe bed for my 9" SouthBend as mine is 24"es
between centers, I don't know the actual measurement of the bed, but
I would like to be able to turn a longer piece than 24"es. (12528) |
| I seen a 48" bed on
ebay this week, you can get aprox 36" between centers with it Sounds
like you have 42" bed. Clint (12530) |
| I recently made a
36 inch thick walled drill press column. put the steady rest on and
cut half the shaft at a time. And I love the added room. not bad for
a 24 inch length on my 9" Dave (12539) |
On a 9", the
headstock and tailstock use up about 18" of bed length. Therefore
you would need a 54" bed to be able to stick 36" between centers. I
don't think I have ever heard of a 54 incher, but maybe they're out
there. Got to be rare. The idea of removing the tailstock and using
your steady rest is a good one and I've seen posts here of guys
building bed extensions. Rick
(12540) |
| Last year I saw
what might have been a 13x120. it did not have a large headstock,
but the bed was 120. nice lathe. Also the welding shop near me has
one of those 120's too. uses 8 feet for storage. Dave (12543) |
| The 9" came with
36", 42" (yours), 48" and 54" beds. Keep an eye on ebay as they do
show up from time to time. Won't be cheap but if you want one.
(12551) |
| Fixing ways?
|
| I searched through
the SB FAQ's sheet, and couldn't seem to locate anything on fixing
the ways on the lathe bed. I have a SB 9A with a 3' bed, which I
bought on Ebay. In certain spots on the ways of the bed, there are
some pretty good dents or chips. This doesn't seem to hinder the
motion of the saddle or tail stock, when I move them on the ways of
the bed. A friend of mine suggest using epoxy to fill in these
dings/chips? Has anyone done this? I might just look for a 4' bed
with ways that are in good shape. It looks like my 3' bed is beyond
a re-scrape. (14221) |
| If the
chips and dents do not have raised edges, just leave them alone. If
there are burrs or small raised areas around the spots you can dress
these down carefully using small sharpening stones or a scraper. If
the carriage can be adjusted to give even drag over the length of
travel you probably have plenty of contact area. If they really irk
you, JB Weld can be used to fill them, it might stick if you
degrease the spots really well. I have filled a few spots on some
tooling with this. Liquid Steel brand might match better for color.
Don't use a standard 30 minute or two hour clear epoxy, it doesn't
cure hard enough for this application. The last thing you need is a
burr getting embedded in the epoxy and scratching the carriage v
ways. Stan (14222) |
| Bed
replacement |
| My 9" model A has a
noticeable ridge on the front way. Suppose I bought a new,
in-better-shape bed - what is involved in swapping them, other than
the obvious component transfer? Is any scraping/fitting involved or
is it just a bolt-together project. Or am I crazy to even consider
it. John (15090) |
| Not sure of
the involvement of scrapping and fitting, but you might want to look
at the ways of the saddle also. These wear with the ways on the bed.
Tom (15091) |
| The saddle looks
nice and smooth, so I figure (perhaps naively) that it is just
riding a little 'lower' than original, and should ride fine on a
newer bed. Then again I'm really happy with the machine, so perhaps
I should just leave well enough alone. (15093) |
| I have toyed
with the idea of bed replacement myself for my 1954 Heavy 10 lathe.
It too has a noticeable ridge on both the front and rear ways. I
would guess it is about 10 to 15 thousands high. So far, I have let
several good looking beds go, since I am not convinced that the
project is a simple swap. Since the saddle wears in with the bed, it
will eventually mate with the ridges in the ways. After talking to a
machine rebuilder here in Cincinnati, I found out that normal
procedure was to re-grind the bed, and then scrape in the saddle to
mate with the bed. Then they scrape in the cross slide and compound.
Without doing this, the saddle will not mate properly with the newly
ground bed. It is also possible that the cross slide will not cut
perpendicular to the axis of the lathe. I suspect that all the same
issues would surface with a swapped out bed. I also thought I could
send out an extra old worn bed and saddle for grinding and scraping,
but by the time this is done, I would be out about $800- $1000
(South Bend wanted $1200 which did not include shipping). Don't
forget the cost for the bed and saddle in the first place either.
Before you know it, you can run up a bill that makes a new Asian
lathe look like a great buy. The ways on my machine show pretty even
wear since it is only a 3 ft bed (has a large spindle bore though).
As it is the lathe still turns out pretty good work. Adjustments can
also be made to work around worn ways. I think the true test lies in
what kind of work you can do on the machine. It's a lot like Dave
Ficken says on his website; "If you are not going to make space
shuttle parts on it, it will do just fine." I also have a 9" South
Bend that has much better ways on it so if I need extra precision, I
can go to it as an alternative. One further note; I know of two
individuals in the gun club where I am a member who are turning out
wonderful work on amazingly old machines. When I got my 1954 South
Bend, one of them said "Oh, you got a new one!". It turns out one of
them is using an "American" (forerunner to LeBlond) made in 1897,
and the other is using an 1888 Pratt Whitney. The guy with the
American told me some local historical buffs once asked him if he
would be willing to donate his lathe to a museum! Of course not,
it's a working lathe! Both were originally line shaft lathes that
have been converted to motor drives. Makes me look like I am using
space age equipment! I'll bet most of the lathes the people in the
group are using show moderate to significant wear on the beds. Perk
(15094) |
| Perk, I'm going to leave well enough alone
and save the price of the 3.5 foot bed that's on ebay right now.
This lathe is new to me, and I've got cleaning/tweaking fever right
now, which is what got me thinking about a bed swap when I saw one
on ebay. The space shuttle part comment hits home - heck I haven't
even measured the performance of the machine yet since it hasn't
been an issue for what I'm making.
John (15095) |
| Bed woes |
| For those of you
whose SB bed has seen better days, if you replaced the bed with one
in good shape (from Ebay etc.), adding you headstock, tailstock etc.
from the original lathe (with worn bed) - I am curious as too the
accuracy obtainable in machining parts? I have always thought that
the headstock/tailstock etc, was specifically fitted to the
individual lathe. Seems like adding the headstock etc from one lathe
onto the bed of another, would sacrifice some tolerance of accuracy.
The ways on my 9A near the headstock are not the best. Having South
Bend re-scrape the bed is out of the question, as this will be over
$1,000, close to $1,500. Other than going the epoxy route, I have
contemplated locating another 9" bed with decent ways. William (15721) |
| I can't
speak about the accuracy, but if your ways are badly worn, then the
ways on the saddle would be too. Also, the ways for the tailstock
might be. The saddle is fitted to the bed, from my understanding of
the process. So when people part out good lathes, this combination
is lost. I wish some would allow a trade-in value. I am in the
process of replacing the bed on a 10K horizontal. I am not to
concerned with the headstock alignment, but would defer this to
someone more knowledgeable than myself. The main concern will be the
fit of the saddle to the bed. I have a few horizontal beds and a UND
bed. I will probably see which on the saddle I bought fits the best.
My tailstock is also worn. Someone put shims in it. I expect to use
Moglice or something else to repair its ways. Tom (15723) |
| The shims in the
tailstock could have been put there instead of leveling the lathe.
This seems to be all too common. Level the lathe bed first to less
than .003"/ft twist and then align the tailstock. You may be
surprised as to how little wear the tailstock may really have.
JP (15726) |
| An inspection of
the tailstock bottom casting is a good indication of the general
state of a machine with regards to wear. If there is a shim between
the two castings, it might be that there is wear on the bottom
casting. A quick easy test to do is to put a dial gauge in the tool
post that can take a reading on the top of the tailstock spindle.
Extend the spindle to the maximum and lock it there. Move the
tailstock and take readings at both ends of the spindle. If your
tailstock is well adjusted, there should be no variation. Machine
tool re-conditioning recommends the use of a test bar stuck in the
MT hole in the spindle. For a tool room lathe, the difference should
be 0 to 0.0005 in difference over a 12 in length. On the their test,
they recommend to move the saddle, but if the lathe has not been
re-conditioned, the test will not be good because of wear on the bed
ways. It is why I recommend to move the tailstock instead. Just to
give you a rough figure, my tailstock had worn down by 0.012 in at
the spindle end. Shims could be used to bring it back in the
original plane. Guy (15737) |
| How to tell if
a SB has hardened ways? |
| Other than doing a
drop test is there any way to tell if a SB 10K has hardened ways?
Would there be any indication in the serial or model number? Keith (17878) |
| Keith, Mine has a
plate on the tailstock end, that says Flame hardened ways?
Dee (17880) |
| Keith After re
reading your post, mine is not a 10 K so I apologize. Dee (17881) |
| Keith,
I think an 'X' or 'R' in the serial number is an indication of a
hardened bed. Also, an 'X' cast in the underneath section on the end
where the headstock sits is a hardened bed. In the 9 and 10K, this
is suppose to be a rare option. I have two very worn beds that have
the 'X' cast in them. The Korean beds for the 10K have a plate
stating 'Flame Hardened' or such. Tom (17883) |
| Keith, I have two
heavy tens with hardened beds and one has a plate and one does not.
The best way to tell for sure is call Le Blond and ask they have
records. The flame hardened ones I have seen though don't have the
chipped look. Grumpy
(17884) |
| While checking
serial numbers is definitive a file pressed lightly on the right end
corner should tell the story. It is an interesting thing to watch
the procession of machine building. Flat ways give way to V-crowns.
The Atlas lathes had flat ways. I'm sure there were other lathes of
this design persuasion. The idea being that a V-crown would wear in
not out. However, until the 'flame Hardened' ways came out, there was
still a wear or 'saddle' problem. Companies wanted more production
and less maintenance. Hard ways were suppose to solve this, but there
is a problem with that. Anytime you heat metal, there is the
potential for changing the casting. So the bed has an opportunity to
twist and hard spot. And of course there is all that grinding. Also a
problem. great care will not keep metal from heating against a wheel.
So when it cools, you have a hollow in the bed. My opinion is that
the industry has been chasing it's tail for nothing. You do not need
a ground and hardened bed. You need a well thought-out design that
with a little care will last indefinitely...like a 1935 SBL. Main
castings use to be cured in the foundry yard much the same way you
air dry wood. Left on its own a casting in the ground will sort out
all the twist. Then they are planed and scraped. When the hard ways
rage hit the scene, we lost an entire industry called scraping. Just
another casualty in our throw away culture. Here is another side to
the story. If you look in a tool catalog, you'll see mills with
square or box ways. NOT dovetails. You'll also notice they are
scraped. NOT ground. I guess the wisdom here is that a box
configuration is stronger. When I first saw this, I laughed. How do
you adjust for eventual wear? Cross your fingers? Scraping is
good, but box ways? I'll take dovetails any day, and you can keep your
flame hardened box ways. I ran a horizontal boring machine that was
built in Romania back in 1960.The guy next to me ran some CNC
machining center, (clever term for a piece of junk!) whose name
ended with an Xjing or something. It was big, it was yellow, it had
hard ground ways, it was under-powered, the main column would shake
when the tool took a cut...You could put a billet of alum or
stainless the size of a small truck on the table, so what. If the main
casting lacks beef and accuracy, it is worthless. Meanwhile, my
HBM, same size had no breakdowns and was self-taught. Which one would
you pick? I close the rant of the day by saying you can pencil whip
anything. But all the CD ROM's aren't worth swarf if the thing they
are running is a piece of s....! Ron
(18197) |
| Difference in
ways |
| In
my quest for a 9"/10" lathe I am off to look at an Atlas 10" this
week. I can't help but notice the ways are different than on an SB.
I can't figure out and/or find an explanation for the pluses and
minuses of the different arrangements. Anyone want to hazard an
opinion? Paul (19090) |
| I seem to
remember that Atlas had flat ways and if any v ways very few where
the south bend uses 3 v ways and a flat. I always was informed that
this was a much more stable set up with more v ways to keep you in
line in all operations of the machine. I am no expert by any means
but I would find a machine be it what ever brand that had the v ways
set up. Grumpy
(19091) |
| I agree with
Grumpy. I have run both having an Atlas at work and my buddy having
a South Bend at home. I think the South Bend is a little more on the
money with the V ways. (I know some fellow Atlas people may
disagree) but I just bought my 10K for that reason. Plus buy what
you can afford and find local. Bob (19092) |
| If you
check the big lathes you will find that most all of them have flat
ways. Duane (19114) |
| Bed Burrs
Question |
| I am about to put
my 13" SouthBend into service (cleaning and reassembling as fast as
I can now). The bed is in great shape, but has a few "beauty marks"
from previous owner(s). The marks do have some high spots, so I want
to take those down before using it. What is the best way to do it? A
hand hone? Looking around I am a little bewildered by the different
types of hones (diamond... india...). James
(19671) |
| Flat file if the
bed is not hardened. Whenever you stone anything you have the risk
of leaving grit emedded in the surface which can cause premature
wear on mating surfaces, especially cast iron. Commercial diamond
cutters use cast iron laps because the diamond grit embeds itself
well into the surface. Diamond grinding works well on fine grain
material that can be cleaned, like tool bits. A cast iron lathe bed
doesn't fall into that category, the finish is usually hand scraped
with a carbide or HSS scraper. If you have to stone it, use a coarse
grit aluminum oxide, never use polishing compound on a cast iron
wear surface, like a lathe bed. JP (19678) |
| Actually it is a
hardened bed (as I found out from LeBlond the other day). Does this
mean I have to hone? James (19682) |
| What is
acceptable bed wear? |
| On my 1969 10K, up
near the headstock, if I lay a 12inch straight edge along the front
V-way I can just push a .002thou feeler gauge under the middle of
the straight edge. Would this be considered still within reasonable
limits or is it excessive wear. If it is excessive what problem
would occur as a result of it? (20813) |
| Most turning is
done near the headstock so it is that part of the bed that gets the
wear most. Is it excessive? I don't know - I suppose it depends upon
what you want to use the machine for. Frank
(20815) |
| As Frank said, most
of the wear is usually up by the headstock and the middle of the
back 'V' way. Usually by doing short OD turning. In my opinion .002
is good to very good condition. It is very mild wear. Excessive wear
might start around .010 or more. Still, even this might be OK
depending on what tolerance of work you are doing. If your finger
nial just barely catches on the grove of the nose wear, it should be
good for most work. Tom (20817) |
| My guess is for an
older lathe its probably acceptable unless you are a rocket
scientist. The problem is the saddle has more wear than the bed. I
suggest you follow the South Bend Lathe book " How to run a lathe"
and follow the alignment procedure . See if the results you can live
with. This is a very interesting question and would like to see some
follow up. I wonder if a seller would allow a potential buyer to
perform the same test you used and you knew what the wear number you
wanted to live with. Walt (20818) |
| I would not be too
concerned about 0.002 in wear if the wear is even on both inverted V
ways. A thing that is easy to do as a check (once the lathe is well
leveled) is to put a master precision level on the saddle in the
direction of the crossfeed motion, and move the saddle from left to
right (or right to left) and monitor the motion of the bubble. If it
stays steady on the same mark on the full length of the bed, you are
laughing. Your lathe is accurate enough to do work within less than
0.0005in diameter accuracy. Otherwise, record the variations of the
bubble. With some math, it will tell you the variations of diameter
you can expect over the full length of the bed. (0.0002 in over 10
in per graduation gives a variation of 4 seconds from the initial
reference plane) My SB 10K has at least 0.006 in wear. Divide by cos
45ø, it means that the saddle has gone down by at least 0.01 in.
(excluding the saddle wear) I was able to see the bubble moving
quite a lot when moving the saddle. I am in the process of
reconditioning the bed by hand scraping. Hopefully, I will bring it
back to the original standard. (Impossible mission? we will see. I
am currently reconditioning the tailstock ways as a beginning
because they have less wear than the others. Then, I will use them
as reference standard for the saddle ways). Guy (20820) |
| When I looked at my
Heavy 10 prior to purchasing, I did exactly that. Laid a
straightedge along the ways and did not see appreciable daylight.
Then, per Dave at Mermac's info, I tightened the compound screw down
with it at the headstock and backed off to where it would barely
move. Then I ran the compound down the bed. It got tight and
stopped about halfway down. Now, how much bed wear is there? I
could get the compound moving again by just a little turn of the
screw, and could not catch a nail on what little groove I thought I
saw. In the end, I still need to level the thing properly and align
the head and tailstocks, then turn a piece between centers. That
according to my South Bend manual is the method of 1)levelling the
lathe, 2)adjusting the head and tailstocks, and 3)determining
bed wear. Brian (20827) |
| Bed wear
question? |
| When examining a
lathe bed with V-shaped ways for wear, what is the most critical
part of the way to consider? Some South Bend beds show a wearing of
the "Vees" near the headstock almost to the point of the inverted
Vee being somewhat scalloped, or concaved, but is this the actual
surface that the carriage rides on? I had assumed it was more or
less a guide for the carriage and the actual bearing surface was the
flats. TJ
(21343) |
| My Heavy 10 has
3 "V"s and one flat. The two outer "V"s align and support the
saddle. No part of the saddle rides on a flat. The tailstock aligns
on the center V and rides on the flat provided for it. Of course the
headstock uses this same V and flat for alignment and as a resting
surface. Ways usually wear near the headstock as this is the area of
most use. Also chips build up in this area and contribute to wear.
There are many accurate ways to determine the exact amount of wear
using indicators, etc. However the one of the easiest is just my
using my fingernail and the tip of my finger. There will be no wear
on the ways near the extreme end at the headstock as nothing rides
here. Simply compare that area with the rest of the ways. If you can
catch your fingernail on a ridge formed by wear on the ways or feel
roughness caused by scouring this is a good indicator of wear. I
have seen lathes that you you could barely catch your nail on and
others that showed ridges so bad you could just see them by just a
glance. In my opinion if a lathe shows enough wear as I can feel
it, I am not going to buy it. Of course the amount of wear will only
get worse as I use it. Everything must be taken in to consideration.
Is the lathe worth the price of a regrind? What type of work will I
be doing on it? You can still do some very nice and accurate work
even on a worn lathe. There again everything must be taken into
consideration, including operator experience, material being cut,
tolerances that must be held, etc. The ways are the backbone of a
lathe. Regrinding or scraping them is beyond the scope of most people
(myself included) and can be expensive. Ed (21360) |
| As stated in the
other post the SB rides on the 'V' ways for the carriage or saddle.
Some lathes such as Atlas and European makes use flat ways. Some
such as LeBlond use a flat way on one side and a 'V' way on the
other. This is a combination of the two systems. There are
advantages to both. The 'V' are suppose to have a bit better
accuracy. That though depends on the overall quality of the lathe.
The Flat ways are easier to rebuild. The wear on the ways depends on
what type of operation was performed on it. OD vs ID give a
different wear pattern. Also, where along the bed the operation is
performed. Usually on lathes the wear occurs towards the headstock,
because the parts are short. Doing OD work the wear occurs on the
front of the 'V' near the headstock and about the middle of the back
of the back 'V' ways. This is where the saddle ends. I might have it
backwards though for the wear pattern for the OD vs ID. Make sure
you move the carriage to both ends and carefully inspect the ways.
Wear can hide itself underneath the carriage. Inspect the both 'V'
ways front and back. Still, it depends on how cheap the lathe is and
what type of accuracy you need. Still, it is so much easier to be
machining on a lathe in good condition. If anybody wants to tell me
a skilled machinist can produce good parts on any crappy lathe. Then
fine, pay me $20-25/hour and I'll take my time to get the parts
right. At least that's what I learned in my 10 years as a machinist.
Tom (21368) |
| This is a slight
digression from the original topic. I had purchased a 50s 10L last
week. The lathe came with a wealth of accessories, taper attachment,
steadies, micro and turret stops, turret toolpost, collets, etc,
etc,. A great buy for slightly under $650. The lathe unfortunately
is worn out. The bed is so worn you can easily see the ridge.
Scalloped as one said but only about 18 inches of wear by the head
stock. My options are clear have the bed reground or scrape it down
myself. Im so cheap I might try scraping. The idea is to build up
the worn areas with bronze brazing or nickel welds. I read about the
process of welding and brazing cast iron and did one repair. The
question is why hasn't this been mentioned? Is it so impossible or
unfeasible that its just not worth considering. I read posts about
Moglice and turcite to rebuild ways but not the obvious bronze and
nickel. Any comments? John
(21369) |
| Welding on cast
iron is tricky. Brazing is OK, but you are applying heat. Once metal
is heated, especially locally, then it might or usually will, warp.
Then you'd have to grind and fit the bed. I think at that point you
are in a worst position than just regrinding the bed. I don't know
how bronze would hold up. Tom (21370) |
| I know, I
(we) are going to take a beating with this one but anyway, I have a
O/A sprayweld setup with the powders that are made for building up
ways. I have not used it yet. I want to try it out on my tailstock
but not on the bottom way side but on the flat between the base and
the upper casting then have it reground. If it works fine if not
fine I am going to order a new one anyway. But I need something to
practice on. Bob
(21371) |
| Bob, Was the
equipment expensive? I have a mini O/A will it work with that? What
kind of metal are the powders? I know most are saying why not just
regrind. I plan to build up the wear areas and file and scrape
afterwards. Economical and educational. Warping and cracking will be
an issue. I plan to minimize it with preheat and postheat. I plan on
digging a large rectangular firepit and use charcoal as the heat
source. I can get at least 500 degrees which is minimum recommended
for preheating. Post heat will simply be to bury the bed in the
charcoal and cool as the embers die out. All this done in the
hottest days of summer. If I fail then I will try to buy a used bed
with minimal wear. John
(21374) |
| I'd first read up
on how they use to make beds like yours, paying particular attention
as to WHEN it was made. Different methods were used depending on who
was doing it. Most good beds were seasoned just like air-drying
lumber. That is they were either rough forged and buried or rough
machined and buried. Not sure which. But the one thing they all had in
common was to get any strains out before finishing. Engine blocks
were done in this manner, or why they still work. I would look at your
problem as a percentage of work. If you think you need more then a
10% of the bed reground, send it out. Eat the cost and help save a
piece of American art. Give it the treatment and then find a relative
or close friend to will it to. Once these babies are gone, don't
expect to many factories to match the quality. USA firms being the
natural exception. I plan on doing this for my 4 grandchildren. They
are learning my metal and stone shop. Ron
(21375) |
| We use spray metal
in our shop extensively. There are special torches for this work.
Powders are available for most types of metals. Our smallest spray
torch is about equivalent in size to a journeyman Victor. This size
torch is capable of the necessary heat to spray a shaft of around an
inch in diameter. Our largest is about the same as a large rosebud.
These torches have fittings to hold the powder container and a third
tube to transfer the powder into the flame. Our largest unit would
not have sufficient heat to do a bed. The metal to be sprayed has to
be around 1600 degrees (F) before hitting the powder pedal. I can't
imagine the bed could ever be salvaged if subjected to powder
treatment. However, I have seen chips and gouges in ways repaired
with a TIG torch, but I don't know what rod was used. Jim
(21376) |
| John I am in
the process of rebuilding a South Bend 10K lathe. I would not take
the risk of metal rebuilding on a large surface like a bed. The risk
of warping is too high. I would scrape it, or if you don't have time
to spend, get it ground. Chances of metal distortion are too high.
1st question: how bad are the tailstock slides? 2nd question: can
you measure the thickness of metal lost on the saddle slide? In my
case, on the SB 10K I am rebuilding, the tailstock slide was worn
slightly. It was missing 0.001 in at a couple of spots. I started
the scraping on the tailstock slides. Once I will be happy about the
general straightness of these slides, I will use them as reference
to plane down the saddle V ways, using a custom made jig. I have to
remove about 0.006 in on each faces. (4). This means that the saddle
will be sitting 0.010 in lower than originally. (I am using another
saddle in much better condition than the original) After planning,
every surfaces will be hand scraped. You have to assume your saddle
got as much wear as the bed. Look also at the bottom casting of the
tailstock. You will find wear there too. It is important to know the
vertical displacement of the top of the saddle from the original
plane. This amount has to be compensated with shims between the bed
and gear box/ lead screw bearing. You might also put shim between
the rack and the bed. Before you start anything, check the general
condition of the spindle and spindle bearings. If you plan on
rebuilding your machine, read chapt 26 of Machine Tool
Reconditioning. It is a must. read and digest this chapter before
you start any work. Everything written there has a logic behind. In
Home shop Machinist Sept-Oct 04, there is part one of an article on
lathe rebuilding. Guy (21377) |
| Since I don't
speak English natively, I have troubles understanding what you mean
here; could you elaborate? The reason for asking is that I bought a
SB9c a couple of months ago and wasn't able to judge the bed too
well: all along the v-ways it has several dents, as if the previous
owner did drop something on it more than once. Apart from these
dents the ways look pretty good to me, but don't know how to
quantify this for the area close to the headstock. While I'm sending
a mail now anyway, another question I had is on the spindle and its
bearings. I did not yet open this up and wonder if I should: is it
possible to get an indication by giving the spindle with chuck
attached a spin, manually, and see how long it keeps going? If I do
this (when the lathe is just cold), I makes half a revolution only
and then stops (of course I loosened the belt before doing this).
This seems a bit little, doesn't it? Then finally, related: only one
side (closest to the chuck) of the headstock seems to have shims. Is
this normal? On this side having shims, these are not enough to keep
me from locking up de spindle tightening the bolts, which makes me
wonder about their use. It is difficult to get a feel for how tight
these bolds should be or if I should take the spindle out the see if
the bearings are good or not. I hope you have some heuristic hints
and suggestions. Wouter. (21383) |
| Just joining in
on this post, since I was wondering about this myself. I am not sure
whether I get this: what do you mean with 'catch your fingernail on
a ridge'. Could you explain for a non-native speaker? My lathe
(which I purchased a couple of months back) shows a number of dents
in the bed and v-ways, all along the bed actually. However, I am not
sure how to judge the bed apart from these dents. Another question
while I'm at it: to judge the headstock bearings: if the belt is not
`engaged' on the spindle pulleys and you give the chuck mounted on
the spindle a fair spin with your hand, how long should it keep
turning. Mine turns for half a circle only, so there seems to be
quite some friction. Is there another (better) way to judge this? Wouter. (21385) |
| I wouldn't think
that localized welding would be any good, you'd be adding all kinds
of stresses. Maybe if you could get the whole bed up over 700 or 800
degrees. A professional machine re-builder would just grind it down,
then build it back up with a material designed to do so, it would
more than likely be better than it was new! Real professionals
aren't cheap to have this done right. I wouldn't attempt it myself,
but I know you need good straight edges, super precision levels and
a fairly big surface plate. Jim
(21386) |
| There is a process
called thermal spray welding. Powdered metal are blasted trough an
electric arc and on to the object by compressed air. I don't know the
exact technique but I think they would warm up the object to no more
than 200 degrees Celsius. Such low temperatures there is no chance
of altering any hardening or causing stress in the material. This
process is used widely in ship (re-)building industry. Worn axles
can be built up to original dimensions using this technique. You can
also do it on hardened steel, without altering the hardening. This
is because it is a low temperature process. The object of course
need to be re-machined after spraying. I have no experience with this
technique but I think it should be able to build up a worn bed. Look
at this link: http://www.edenia.com/uniweld/un01003.htm
Torfinn (21388) |
| Wouter, Dents are
not a major problem. As long as they are not excessive. The saddle or
carriage still has enough surface area on they ways to ride along.
The wear on ways (at least on SBs) occurs about 1/16 of an inch
below the top of the ways. The metal may look streaked or smeared
over a length. As for the spindle bearing most do a deflection test.
I think there are instructions somewhere to do this procedure. If you
run your lathe, the bearings should be warm to the tough but not
hot. The spin test doesn't seem indicative of anything. So run your
lathe for 15 minutes an see how hot the bearing get. Tom (21389) |
| Wouter In Australia
we would understand it to mean as follows slide the end of your
fingernail across the surface, if there are any ridges (grooves,
ruts) caused by the Tailstock or saddle your fingernail will sense
the ridge. So I suspect if you cannot feel any ridge on the machined
surfaces then wear is minimal, if any. To give you a real life
example of how "sensitive" the end of the fingernail is, move the
end of your fingernail over an egg and you will be amazed how coarse
the shell is. Just clarify further " the end of the fingernail" is
the very end - that end where the ladies always are always filing.
Looking at the front of your fingertips your should see the pad at
the end of finger and the cross-section of fingernail perhaps 0.5 to
1mm thick and it is this small area that is used as the "feeler
gauge" when testing for ridge wear. (21391) |
| Tom & Paul,
silly me didn't quite understand that the
ridge is along the v-ways near the headstock, so you should feel
along the `leg' of the v, instead of in the direction the saddle
travels. I'm happy though, since now I know the ways do not seem to
be in a bad condition at all, and any inaccuracies in things I am
making I must blame on myself alone ;-) Never worked much with metal
before I have a lot to learn. Wouter.
(21393) |
| 1936 9"B Bed
Refurbishment |
| I
am slowly arriving at the conclusion that I will need to have the
bed refurbished in order to do any very accurate work. Here are my
questions. 1) How do I determine the amount and position of the wear
that needs to be fixed? 2) Does the saddle need to be resurfaced at
the same time? 3) Are all four ways (2 for saddle and 2 for
tailstock/headstock) generally ground down by the same amount when
this is done. 4) are the 45 deg ways ground with a cup grinder? 5)
how much backlash is to be expected in the cross slide wheel,
compound wheel, and long feed wheel? (21351) |
| I will try to
answer your questions or at least throw in my 2 cents worth.. (1)
Most lathe beds will wear most near the headstock as this is usually
the area of most use. Does your lathe show evidence of a ridge in
this area indicating wear. I know of no way to "build up" and area
of wear on lathe ways, so the entire ways must be scraped or ground.
This includes the ways that the tailstock ride on. The tailstock
ways may not show any wear but need to be in accurate alignment with
the other ways. (2) The saddle will need to be scraped in to
properly mate with the new way surfaces. (3)Hardened ways are
ground. Unhardened ways can be hand scraped in. I have seen ways
ground using grinders mounted on old planer beds and I have seen
them ground using state of the art CNC grinders where the grinder
head automatically tilted to grind each surface. I do not know what
method South Bend uses when regrinding beds, but know they do a good
job. (4)There will always be some backlash in crossfeed, compound
screws. After installing a new crossfeed screw and nut in my SB the
backlash was about 3 to 5 thousands if I remember correctly.. I have
used lathes with 50 to 100 thousands backlash and still been able to
do good work with them but a tight fitting smooth machine is much
more of a joy to use. The bottom line is, how accurate of work do
you need to do and what are you willing to pay to get it. A bed
regrind and scraping in of saddle will cost about 1200 to 1400 bucks
from SB. Although you may be able to get this done much cheaper
elsewhere. I chose SB to do mine and do not regret it. First class
work and service. Replacement of crossfeed and compound screws and
nuts should run another 300 hundred or so. Although these items can
be sometimes found slightly used for much less. Hope I have been of
help to you and have not confused or discouraged you. The rebuilding
of even a small lathe can be a confusing and expensive venture.
Ed (21357) |
| Changing the
bed on a SB9A |
| I have an old 1939 or so SB9A and the bed
is fairly worn, I have located a decent bed and I'm wanting to know
what problems I may run into fitting all of my parts to the new bed?
Is it worth doing? Is it something I shouldn't even attempt? is $200
too much for a nice 42" bed? If it is too much does anybody know
where I can find one? Jim (24090) |
| I would say do
it. It's not hard to do. I converted mine to an A from a C and
didn't have any problems doing that. Walt (24091) |
| If your
original bed is 42 inches, then no problem. If not, (and shorter),
then you'd' need the lead screw. Tom (24098) |
| I would suggest
getting the matching saddle if available. Possibly ask if you can
swap tailstocks. $200 is a bit high, unless in very good shape.
Still, you will pay a bunch for shipping. Even a state away it would
be $50 to ship. If you bed is worn, then more than likely, your
saddle is worn. Probably your tailstock plate also. Tom (24099) |
| Watch E-bay,
last month a complete lathe didn't sell and was listed for $550.00
with all sorts of extras. A member on this list IIRC. you should be
able to buy an entire 9" C (workshop) for under $400.00. I had
contacted a local repair guy who does Bridgeports primarily, but
can do much bigger machines. he wanted $1,000 to regrind my bed,
then match the headstock, carriage and tailstock to center and the
newly ground bed. Mine is decent so it is not worth a $,$$$ to do
that. and the shipping would have added even more. I was looking at
a 9" A that was pretty worn. but the total cost was way too much for
me. For $200,00 I'd say it depends on your skills to re-fit the rest
of the parts. The headstock and tailstock 'should' be fine as they
started at the same heights. If you want to hand scrape you have
hours of work ahead, but will have a brand new bed in the end. Dave
(24120) |
| Question about
bed length |
| The # on the bed
6836TKL13 breaks down to : 13" QCGB UMD large spindle nose. The
headstock # is CL 8175 which denotes threaded spindle. Under "bed
length" it has 7. It's not 7' between centers but the bed including
the headstock may be 7'. I was just wondering. I was also wondering
what the difference between the regular spindle hole and the large
is. I know it swallowed the 5C collet I stuck in there to check it.
(24309) |
| Bed length is
measured from end to end, not center to center. Large Spindle Bore
( approx. 1-7/16 " Through Diameter ) takes 5C Collets. Small
Spindle Bore ( approx. 1-1/16" through bore ) takes 2A collets.
Ron (24310) |
| Ron, my lathe must require an adapter to use the 5C collets
because the naked spindle bore is much larger. It just swallowed up
the 5C I checked it with. I have used SB's with 5C collets and
Jacobs chucks and I seem to remember some sort of bushing that went
in the nose to use the 5C's. (24311) |
| Yes to use 5C
Collets requires the SB Spindle Collet Adapter Sleeve. Don't know
what they are worth new but expect BIG $. Used on Ebay anywhere
from $40 to 80+. Ron (24312) |
| Ron.
I'm really excited about this lathe because of the parts
availability. Not much around for my Rockwell 10.
(24313) |
| That bushing was #5
Mt to 5c adapter sleeve. There also is a nut that goes on the
spindle before the adapter sleeve that allows you pop the adapter
sleeve out after you are done using collets. That nut also protects
the spindle threads. 9" lathes used a #3 MT to 3C adapter sleeve. Gabe (24314) |
| Its not 5MT, its a
proprietary Southbend taper 1.629" large end and .602" per ft taper.
The sleeve alone from Leblond goes for close to $300 but you can get
the whole setup, sleeve, spindle nut and handwheel drawbar for
around $200 used from places like Sobels in NJ. JP (24317) |
| JP Do you know what
is used to pull that reducer on a cam lock lathe?? I am switching
from a 2 quarter 8 thread to a camlock and all the drawbar and etc
fits and works but there is no place for the nut obviously sooo ???
I have been told the only way is a brass rod but you would think
there is some method a little more proper in this modern times.
Grumpy PS: Yes it is not a Morris taper 5 a
wide misconception ! (24327) |
| Could this be a
device to remove those sleeves? If it is, I could use one myself.
http://members.cox.net/arne_at_cox_net/sb10_30.jpg
http://members.cox.net/arne_at_cox_net/sb10_35.jpg
(24363) |
| Yes Sir You Got IT
! I can see where it would be plus and minus tho. The screws I would
have to remove each time I used it or I would hamburger my arm or
something. Removing and replacing would be a pain but it would work
great. Also wonder what damage the screws would cause if there not
brass pointed or something to the camlock hub? The old brass bar
would work but would be primitive but quick and I think to
eventually damage the reducer also. Any comments on brass rods
damaging the reducer or the screws????? And to you find sir I thank
you much for the time and trouble to do us the pictures I have them
on file.! Grumpy (24369) |
| Grumpy, I got those
pics from a 10L currently on eBay. There are more pics shown there.
It's item number 3869752500 . Regarding the screws sticking out, I
would think they could be a length where they could be flush with
that "plate". They would probably only need to be screwed in a few
turns to release the sleeve. Arne would have to remove each time I
used it or I would hamburger my arm or something. Removing and
replacing would be a pain but it would work great. Also wonder what
damage the screws would cause if there not brass pointed or
something to the camlock hub? and I think to eventually damage the
reducer also. Any comments on brass rods damaging the reducer or the
screws?(24373) |
| I shall
check on it more. I think the screws could be flush and I would
guess less than one turn on probably any one of them would be enough
to break the reducer loose. I thought I would get ambitious and make
one one of these days.
Grumpy (24398) |
