| Made some leveling feet for my
10L (Mar 24, 2002) |
Lathe Setup Question
(Oct 10, 2003) |
| 9" Horizontal Mount Setup Advice
(Apr 24, 2002) |
Workbench plans (Dec 23,
2003) |
| Wooden bench? (Oct 27,
2002) |
8 legs on my table (Dec
25, 2003) |
| Level bench (Oct 29,
2002) |
SB 9" Bench Ideas (Jan
17, 2004) |
| Mounting a lathe
(Nov 3, 2002) |
Mounting/leveling a 16" sbl
(May 25, 2004) |
| Lathe in concrete (Nov 3,
2002) |
Lathe on Casters (May
28, 2004) |
|
Mounting Dimensions (Nov 13, 2002) |
Lathe Bench (Jun 22,
2004) |
|
Lathe with the smallest footprint? (Nov 20, 2002) |
Granite slab for a lathe bench?
(Aug 6, 2004) |
|
Wandering lathe (Dec 15, 2002) |
Anchoring SB9 to concrete floor
(Aug 16, 2004) |
| How
deep is the SB 9 inch bench top? (Dec 16, 2002) |
Securing lathe to floor
(Sep 29, 2004) |
| South Bend Bench (Feb 8,
2003) |
Installing a lathe (Sep
30, 2004) |
| Wood Lathe Bench Plan
(Feb 10, 2003) |
Lathe Stand (Oct 28,
2004) |
| Bench width (Feb 14,
2003) |
Workshop 9 legs? (Oct
31, 2004) |
| Bench Top (Mar 2, 2003) |
Support Stand for 9A
(Feb 5, 2005) |
| Flooring (Apr 19, 2003) |
Table size 9 inch (Feb
16, 2005) |
| 9" A Which Height? (Oct
1, 2003) |
|
| |
| Made some leveling feet for my
10L |
| It's a pretty
decent design. Check it out at:
http://www.toolbit.net/feet Let me
know what you think. Dave (3734) |
| 9" Horizontal Mount Setup Advice |
| I have a 9" A HMD
for which I am drafting up a bench plan. Can anyone tell me the
factory/proper distance to mount the drive unit away from the lathe?
I don't have a belt yet and I'd like to establish this measurement
before I get one. Dennis
(4043) |
| Please get your belt first and
then set it all up before you splice the belt. Or if you get a fixed
length belt like the ones from McMaster-Carr you need the belt
before you drill the holes. That is why my bench has 4 sets of holes
for the countershaft and two for the lathe. JWE (4045) |
| The
distance to the horizontal mount is determined by the belt length
and the belt length is determined by the distance between the cone
pulleys? Which comes first the chicken or the egg? Could this
information be in the South Bend Installation Setup guide? Does
anyone have a copy handy? I'd like to
stick to factory specs as much as possible.
(4065) |
| I put a page from SBL in the Photos
section that shows pretty much what you're asking for, although
there's no actual measurement for the mounting holes. That can be
inferred. See "SB 9 InchInfo. Paul R. (4070) |
| It should be 15 3/4" from the center of the bed rear leg bolt down
hole to the center line of the pivot axle that hinges the jack
shaft, pulleys and motor assembly. Per my SB instructions. I hope
this is clear. Note that the belt tensioning function depends on
this dimension. (4079) |
| Wooden bench? |
| I have a 1972 9" Model A.
This thing, it seems, came with a WOOD-top stand/bench from the
factory. How can I ever properly level the machine on this? Is this
at all possible? The lathe is in a garage with no heating or air
conditioning, so I'm assuming the wood, even though it's thoroughly
impregnated with solvent, cutting fluid and the like, will still
expand and contract with the changing of temperature. Does anyone
else have this setup? Bilal (6826) |
| Lots of folks seem to think
wood *can't* be used for a lathe bench without having lots of
problems. Just about every older lathe setup in garages and shops
was on a wood benchtop. If you think about the movement of wood,
there is almost zero change along the length of the grain, a fair
bit of movement across the grain, and thickness may or may not vary
depending on the grain orientation of the board. If the boards are
wide enough to mount the lathe to a single board in the top the
remaining question becomes expansion and contraction in the
thickness of the wood. I would recommend using large washers -
perhaps homemade ones 4 inches in diameter or so made from 1/4 inch
plate - under the nuts if you through bolt the lathe to the top. If
you do a lot of long work to tight tolerance you may see some
variation as the seasons change, then again, you may find you have
no problem at all. My SB9 is mounted to an old heavy oak office desk
with a masonite/Formica lamination between the original desktop and
the lathe. I haven't found that this lathe requires more realignment
than the SB13 which has cast iron legs and sits on the concrete
floor of the shop. If making a new top, I'd recommend laminating two
or three layers of decent 3/4 inch plywood to make a top. Plywood is
dimensionally stable, so the only thing is to avoid crushing the
wood fibers with the hardware used to mount the lathe. Big washers
are the answer to this, combined with a layer of 1/8 inch thick
sheet steel under the lathe feet if not over the entire bench
surface. As I said, I used masonite and Formica in place of sheet
steel under the 9 incher and have had good results. The Formica/masonite
sandwich is very hard and hasn't shown any signs of compressing over
the last year and a half or so. Tubal Cain (I think...) did an
article where he mounted the lathe to the wooden top using shoulder
bolts and some other such shop made hardware. From his description,
I couldn't figure out how he avoided the hardware crushing the wood
fibers when snugged up. Most furniture joints don't fail from the
wood expanding, they fail when the wood contracts as it dries out
and the glue line or wood at the glue line fails in tension.
Stan (6828) |
| I suppose you could
get the machine level on a wood bench. Its not worth the
effort, because unless you have a very stable environment it will
soon be off again. As you have already noticed. I ended up with a
table made from a sheet of 1/2" aluminum (6061) with 1 1/2" schedule
80 pipe legs. I threaded one end of each leg and installed 3000 psi
forged caps. The caps are drilled for 1/2 13 bolts that go through
the aluminum top. I used 1/4" aluminum gussets on the sides fastened
with U bolts to the legs. Another piece of pipe (2") is held between
the gussets with 3/4 10 thread rod. This thing is easy to level and
basically stays level on the concrete floor. I slide a metal cabinet
under it to store lathe stuff, but there is no contact between the
sheet metal cabinet and the lathe bench. This eliminates noise
problems. Even better is a roll out cabinet that can be used as a
tool laydown surface when your using the machine. I sometimes forget
to close the drawers and end up with a drawer full of chips, no fun.
RC (6829) |
| If you're going to make a plywood top
make certain you get a grade of plywood that doesn't have any
concealed voids inside. Frank (6833) |
| Stan, I haven't tried leveling the bench yet, because I
was daunted by advice from fellow machinists at the Physics Machine
Shop here at the U. of MD. I'll try leveling it and will see how
much it changes over the course of the next year or so. Currently
(unleveled) I have 0.001" runout AN INCH from the jaws of the chuck
:-). Bilal (6836) |
| BH Wood isn't all that sensitive to
temperature but it is very sensitive to moisture. If the wood is
adequately sealed or soaked top and bottom with oil, it shouldn't be
able to absorb moisture and therefore won't move. An interesting
alternative is shown in the file section of the 9x20 group. A fellow
build his bench entirely out of reinforced concrete. He describes
how he did it and what he shouldn't have done. It would certainly be
rock solid but on the other hand couldn't be moved either.
John (6844) |
| I have a 10K that
is mounted on a wood bench top and leveled it with a precision
machinist's level. The 10K has two adjustment screws in the bed
mount at the tailstock end of the bed. I don't know if your lathe
has these. They can be used to take any twist out of the bed. I
leveled my lathe about 4 months ago and it has lived in temperatures
from 101 degrees to 45 degrees and seems to have held the adjustment
OK. tomd (6848) |
| Tom, No, unfortunately my lathe
doesn't have these adjustment screws. I have to use the good old
spirit level held crosswise and lengthwise to level it out. Is there
any advantage to using a machinist level? I use a metal home-depot
quality 8" long level and it seems to be fine, or should I go with
the machinist level for absolute flatness of the base (which appears
to be it's advantage, to answer my own question). Bilal (6853) |
| For machines
that do not have adjustment feet on the tail end you can use the
arrangement that Chris Heapy uses on his Myford 7. When you reach
his page click on "techniques" on the left and go to "initial setup"
http://easyweb.easynet.co.uk/~chrish/homepage.htm
You will certainly want to look at the rest of his site. There are
excellent tutorials in the pages along with some outstanding work
that he has done. Fred
(6854) |
| Level the bench with
the home depot level, you will go nuts if you try to put a machinists
level on a wood table. Then put the machinists level on the ways of
the lathe, and shim the machine to level. The longitudinal leveling
isn't that important just the cross leveling effects the
operation. Witch for dings and dirt on the ways they will throw the
precision level off scale. The bedways need to be coplanar, or in the
same plane. That plane can run down hill by a few thou/ft without
hurting anything. RC (6855) |
| I'm not sure my
saddle rocking on 3 corners isn't somehow related to my workbench
not being straight. More research is indicated. (6856) |
| As far as the wood crushing, you could
use a technique used to accurize rifle stocks. It called pillar
bedding. Basically you create a pillar or sleeve of epoxy compound to
replace a certain diameter of wood. The stuff we use to use was
called basinite. I would look into using JB weld if it is soupy
enough. I would do two holes at a time, so the other two holes would
keep the former ones aligned. Use some type of release agent on the
metal parts. PAM cooking spray might do the trick or a release agent
for fiberglass molding. You can also coat the bolts with some type
of grease. Lubriplate should work well. Tom (6857) |
| Level bench |
| I made a stand for
my 9"x 48" SBL. For the top I used a 8" x 52" piece of heavy channel
iron. I made the legs from 2"x2" 1/4" wall square tube steel then
bent to suit. I had the channel iron surface ground ( $60 )I then
drilled and mounted the lathe to the channel. In a couple of places
I had to add a couple of spacers( about .005 ) to true it up. On the
bottom of the legs I have adjusters to level the whole works. If
needed I can lift up the bench and slip on wheels that I made to fit
for easy moving. I did it this way years ago as I had planned on
having this set up in the back of a big tool van I had. This way, no
matter what incline the van was on the work still would have been
level to the lathe itself. Also where I live if a loaded gravel
truck goes past and I have my Starrett level on the lathe, the bubble
goes back and forth so it worked out for the best anyway.
(6865) |
| Those levels have many uses but
that's
the first time I heard of using it as a seismograph. lol RC (6872) |
| I guess I am a slow
learner on this leveling . I carefully leveled my 9" SB and got it
all just right and then I remembered that the Navy had hundreds of
tenders with lathes, surface grinders and milling machines floating
on the ocean. Were these decks gimbaled? How did these lathes
perform in these Navy Tenders? Dick (6906) |
| It's twist in the bed that's the
issue. It doesn't have to be level, just free of twist. Paul
R. (6907) |
| Level doesn't matter, the actual aim is to eliminate any twist to
the bed. I dial in the fine alignment using a bar and indicator on
my old SB13, the bed isn't perfect so this approach allows me to get
the best possible bed twist adjustment. I rough it in with a level,
then tweak the adjustable mounts I made to get the spindle
centerline coaxial with the bed centerline. It turns out this is
very similar (the same?) as a method commonly referred to as "Rollies
Dads Method." Don't know who Rollie is or was, but his Dad was using
a method know to millwrights for a long time. Machine mounts for use
on flexible surfaces are often 3 point so the support structure
flexing induces less error - basically the old three legged stools
always sit steady approach :-) One or more of the legs or mounts
will be mounted hard and fast, the others may be on resilient mounts
to decouple a bit more as well. Stan (6908) |
| Rollie's Dad's method of
leveling can be found here:
http://home.attbi.com/~wasser/NEMES/RDMLatheAlignment.html
Dave (6909) |
| Thanks to you
and Stan for alerting me to the twisting tension that can occur in
improperly setup lathes. (6916) |
| Mounting a lathe |
| On
this 9" I just got, I'd originally planned to mount the bed to a
wooden bench I have, with the motor unit mounted to the wall and the
drive coming from above. In the regular horizontal setup, it just
takes up too much depth... Is that just complete lunacy or would it
work ok? Seems like the flat belt tension is set by an overcenter
setup, so as long as the weight of the motor unit and vibration
wouldn't pop it out, it seems like it'd be ok... Along those same
lines, how much do I need to worry about ensuring that the bed is
mounted to something that can't move? My wooden bench is just 3/4"
plywood over 2x4, so obviously its not super stiff or anything. Do I
need to make up a base to mount the lathe bed to? It wouldn't be
that hard to weld up a steel table structure out of 2" square tube
that should be reasonably stiff, but there's no sense doing that if
its not required. Or is there a better way? Mark (6946) |
| Originally these
lathes were meant to be powered from an overhead lineshaft. I'm
playing games with my lathe being on a wooden bench, I have had it
suggested a piece of channel iron or I-beam to mount the lathe
on...which can then be supported at each end right under the lathe
feet. (6949) |
| I would make
sure that you have a good solid base for the feet to sit on, you
will not want any flexing. As far as the motor mount, I do not see a
problem mounting a motor on the wall if that is what you want, as
long as you can throw it out as to not run the headstock. Also will
you have a belt long enough? Another thought for you if room is a
concern, see if you can find an old treadmill with a DC motor and
controller. These work well on the lathe, also give you reversing
and speed control. also saves a lot of room. I have found the tread
mills in good running condition for a little of nothing at garage
sales and flea markets. Clint (6950) |
| The larger SB lathes
often were driven from above, either from lineshafts or from an
overhead drive unit that mounted to the bed and hung the driving
cone pulley above the spindle cone pulley. Some of these setups end
up looking kind of Rube Goldberg-esque but you aren't over into the
lunacy camp on this idea :-) A single layer of 3/4 ply is a tad
flimsy for a lathe bench. You might consider adding at least one,
and preferably two layers of additional 3/4 ply to the top. Glue and
screw each piece to the one below. Tightbond 2 or any similar water
resistant aliphatic resin (aka yellow carpenters glue that is OK for
outdoor apps) is fine, no need for specialty adhesives. A final top
layer of 1/4 inch masonite makes a nice hard surface. Make it easy
to replace the masonite, it will get grungy over time. You can
install T nuts or threaded inserts for the lathe mounting hardware,
or through bolt using large washers under the the nuts so the wood
fibers don't crush. Naturally, a welded frame with lots of drawers
and a 1/2 inch plate top with raised areas for the lathe bed
mounting area and the central area lower to allow easy clean up and
chip pan usage is a very nice setup. I welded up a nice base for my
mill drill, but haven't felt is was needed for my SB9. Mine is on an
OLD heavy oak office desk, the Taig is mounted on the raise-up
typing tray in one of the cubby holes :-) The Atlas 12 I'm
rebuilding will go on a wooden bench where my old Chinese POS 9x20
used to live. It has a top of 3 layers of glued and screwed 3/4 inch
ply. The carcass of the bench is 2X6s glued and screwed with the
ends skinned with 1/4 inch ply. The rear stringer is bolted to the
wall studs. Heavy shelves behind sliding doors fill 2/3 of the base,
the other 1/3 is a set of shop made drawers ranging in depth from 1
inch to 3 inches. Lots of room for small tools and gauges in the
shallow drawers and room for faceplates and toolholders in the
deeper drawers. Stan (6953) |
| Oh, give me time... :-) Looks like
we're going to try and get a piece of 1/2" or 3/4" plate and just
set that on top of the existing bench. That should be plenty stiff,
right? Weight shouldn't be _too_ bad. We're figuring two guys can
move it (it'll be a piece 24" x 60"). Perhaps I'll add some
additional 2x4 legs to help support it as well. Sound ok? Mark
(6967) |
| I was just going to use the existing belt.
That will put the pulley down reasonably low, but I can just whip up
a guard for that so I don't catch my nose in it or something... :-)
Are there any blow by blow directions out there for doing this
conversion? I don't know very much about DC (or AC! :-) motors. Do
they not require the large drive pulley? It helps a ton.
Mark (6968) |
| You will have to
fasten the bench to the floor, otherwise it will walk toward the
drive unit every time you start the motor, or You could fasten the
bench to the wall with a rigid bar in the area of the drive. You may
end up doing both depending on how smooth you like your lathe to
run. The length of that flat belt effects the smoothness of the
machine as well so don't snug things up too much. A long belt acts
as a vibration decoupler. RC (6970) |
| Lathe in
concrete |
| Has anyone made a
lathe bench out of concrete, thinking of building a better bench.
Matt (6954) |
| Hey,
stacks of concrete block are pretty solid when properly mortared.
(6960) |
| Concrete by
its nature shrinks. All concrete shrinks. All concrete cracks. All
items made of cement do this. whether or not you notice is another
thing. Flatwork (sidewalks, driveways, etc) have tooled joints to
initiate the crack in an exact location to keep random cracks from
occurring somewhere out in the field of concrete, that way you don't
notice it. Basement walls crack, and homeowners get wacky about it.
buyers esp. cmu/concrete blocks also shrink. when you are building a
structure, as long as things are uniform (think cmu walls of the
same height) this movement is tolerable. When you clad the cmu with
something, say brick which expands over time, then you get
interactions that are potentially dramatic. I would advise against
using either for a bench. Since the movement is real, and that it
continues forever, your lathe will always be out of level. The
forming aspect of concrete too is a bit of an art, you will probably
spend more time and $ on the formwork than building a steel bench.
If you are looking for mass to stabilize and dampen it, then use
sand fill. At least with sand you can drain it out later to move.
The cheapo mill-drill types seem to swear by filling their bases
with concrete to 'quiet and stabilize' their machines. Well that's
all and good because all they are doing is adding weight to improve
the 'performance' of their mill. then they end up with a machine
that weighs almost as much a s a real Bridgeport. dp (6969) |
| Sand (dry) works
fantastically well to absorb vibration. Years ago I used to fill the
drawers of an old steel desk with sand so my light microscopes would
become stable and not tremble every time a car passed. Another
gambit was to use stacks of magazines, but that wouldn't work for a
lathe. Frank (6987) |
| Being a Civil
Engineer, I just couldn't resist chiming in on this one. While it's
true that concrete shrinks, it can be managed relatively easily, so
I don't see why a concrete bench wouldn't work. Most of the
volumetric changes in concrete occur very early in its life, within
a month or two after casting. After all, very tall high-rise
buildings can be constructed of reinforced concrete, and concrete
pedestals are often used for mounting heavy (and precision)
industrial equipment. With the use of leveling nuts, I should think
a concrete bench would work wonderfully. Just be sure of the
location, there'll be no rearranging the shop after placement! Tom
(6991) |
| You might look
around on the net for write-ups from people who have thought about
making a lathe itself from concrete. One of the issues not mentioned
is moisture - concrete is like a sponge in this regard, and that may
give you problems with rusting of the lathe. Perhaps if you put
something on top of the concrete to act as a barrier. Concrete
machine tools actually often use a polymer resin - an epoxy
basically - as a binder instead of Portland cement, but that gets
expensive. As for moving it, I'd build a sturdy plywood box to serve
as a form while casting it - and perhaps never remove that. If you
build it bridge style with a gap in the center you could make a
wheeled wooden support that won't quite fit underneath, and provide
spots in the pedestals for jacks to raise it enough that you can
slide the wheel unit in when you want to move it. When I thought of
casting a concrete spinning lathe in the basement of my apartment, I
was going to put holes in the bed just slightly larger than a bottle
jack at shortest extension - concrete is very strong in compression,
but pretty weak in tension. So when it came time to move, I figured
I could use a jack in the holes to break the bed up into chunks I
could carry out and dispose of. Never built it though. (this doesn't
preclude using rebar - just run the bars through the gaps so that
you can hacksaw them before breaking the concrete). Chris (6992) |
| One thing I was thinking of doing was to get some steel
(galvanized?) tubing about 18 or 20 inches across, run an I beam up
the middle with a mounting plate welded on top of it, then fill the
void in the tubing with dampening material, concrete was my first
thought, but sand would be a little more portable . Anything would
be an improvement over the bench (if it deserves to be called that)
that it sits on now. Matt (6993) |
| Realistically, how
about a piece of I-beam for a stringer, supported at each end by an
I-beam crosspiece atop a stack of block? Myself, I'm just looking
for 2 of the cast-iron tailstock-end legs from a Heavy 10 to mount
my 9 on. (6994) |
| Matt The 9" lathe
will not require that much of a structure. I can almost carry one
myself with out the motor and drive. I have one set up on a 3 X 4
Table on casters. The frame is 3 x 3" angle iron with 3/4" ply board
on top. Then has a piece of 3x3 angle iron in the middle. It is
holding up very well. Clint (6995) |
| Mounting
Dimensions |
| I have a
9A HMD model 644Z. Does anyone have a diagram with the mounting hole
dimensions? Fred (7210) |
| Fred What
mounting holes? Clint (7212) |
| The whole
enchilada. Fred (7213) |
| Fred No, I
would not know that. Have you tried the UK site? I do not have the
address but it is in the links on the forum. Clint(7215) |
| I have been
all over his site a number of times. Have never seen that kind of
information. Still I will peruse it again. Fred (7216) |
| Fred, Are you
looking for the dimensions of the horizontal drive from the bed? I
thought I saw this somewhere. I'll look tonight in my SB Literature,
but I don't remember it there. I am taking it you have a 9. A 10K
might be a bit different, depending on what type of horizontal drive
unit it has. Tom (7217) |
| Tom, no need anymore. Randy Reynolds at SB faxed me a
drawing of the mounting instructions, including the location of the
holes. Fred (7232) |
| Fred, Good to
hear you have some dimensions. I did find some for a 10K. Should be
similar for a 9. I found them in the army manual for the South Bend
lathes. Tom (7243) |
| Tom, I had
downloaded that manual but did not print the 60 some pages out at
the time. You know I had forgotten about it so did not look. I will
have to print it out and put it in my binder.
Fred (7255) |
| John,
Actually it is a US Army training manual for the SB lathes. Someone
help me out here since I seem to have lost the link to that site.
Fred (7269) |
|
http://metalworking.com/DropBox/_2001_retired_files/sbarmylathe.pdf Scott Logan (7270) |
| John, In case
you did not see Scott Logan's reply to my help, here is the manual
http://metalworking.com/DropBox/_2001_retired_files/sbarmylathe.pdf
Fred (7272) |
| Lathe with the
smallest footprint? |
| I have decided to
start my quest to acquire a South Bend lathe, "one of the best ever
made". I have a space issue until I can begin building my shop, so
my question to the group is what model has the smallest footprint
that still has power cross feed. Is it the 9" model A with a short
bed (I'm not sure how short the beds came). Is the 10K or heavy 10K
just as small? Also, is the weight difference between the 9" and 10"
all that much? Thanks for listening and am eagerly awaiting
responses to help me decide what model to pursue. Pat
(7436) |
| I'm happy with my 9 workshop with a 3 ft bed, the
smallest they made I think. If you want to disassemble the lathe, it
breaks down into very manageable components. You probably want a
rear drive model unless you have room for the underdrive cabinet
model. Even though I believe the rear drive has a deeper footprint
everything is accessible and you can fiddle around some in how you
mount the countershaft and bracket. Bill (7437) |
| The size
difference between the 9 and 10K is nil. The heavy 10 shouldn't be
any real difference if comparing apples to apples. But the heavy 10
should cost more. If space is a premium, then you'd be looking for
an Underneath Drive lathe. I think all the Heavy 10's are UNDs. The
9 and 10K's were made in the UND configuration. I would think one
in nice shape would be about $1200 - $1600. Measure what space you
have length wise and use the bed length plus about a foot to
determine the maximum length of bed you can fit. Usually you want a
foot or more between walls etc. Mainly for maintenance work. The SB's
have relatively everything accessible. There are some gear head SB's
that might fit the bill, too. I don't see them much for sale
though. I would say the Horizontal drive units add at least a two
feet to the back of the lathe. Tom (7440) |
| Wandering lathe |
| I have a very dry
basement with a reasonably level concrete floor. My 10 inch SB
cabinet rests directly on the floor and I level the bed by shimming
under the cabinet. However, the lathe tends to wander, especially if
I turn eccentric stuff. Now, I don't want to drill holes in the
floor - my basement is VERY dry even tho we have a high water table
and I'm afraid of hitting a gusher. Anybody got ideas how to
immobilize the lathe without lagging it to the floor? I've heard of
using tarpaper, but will that keep it level? Won't tarpaper
compress? Frank (7994) |
I have in the
past used moly bolts, and while that worked it was a pain to get
level, there were four points on each end, I
recently moved the machine and had a couple ideas I got off the HSM
site. I made some feet out of some 3" round stock threaded to make
leveling fairly easy. One gentleman on HSM said just to use a nice
gob of epoxy under each foot. I bored out the bottom of each foot to
a depth of 1/2" and made an insert out of 1" conveyor belting used
at a rock crusher, tough stuff! So far I have not had any problems.
It settled a little in the first week but has not moved since then.
Dee (7995) |
| I will give
you the trick we use on our screw machines at work. Take an old tire
carcass not steel belted and chop the tread area into four inch
square patches. Put one under each corner and it wont go sleep
walking any more, quieter also. JWE(7996) |
| James. That is
the same thing I did on my old 109 table and on my mill table and my
SB table, except I used a piece of 3/4" thick conveyer belt. Works
great. The conveyer belt also works good for fatigue mats. Since there
are no perforations in the material, swarf doesn't get stuck like it
does in perforated fatigue mats, easier clean up too. Bill C.
(7997) |
| I assume the
floor is a concrete slab on grade. They are usually nominally 4
inches thick but often just 3-1/2 inches. If you use an anchor that
embeds only 2 inches you should be safe. I recommend the "lead"
shield type like "Slug-In" or "Tamp-in". The wedge type anchors
place a high side load on the hole and may spall out if only 2
inches deep. Use a minimum of 5/8 inch anchor in an appropriately
sized hole (probably 1 inch - check the specs.) Don't cheat with a
1/2 inch bolt. Try to get an assembly that places the threaded part
up and make it long enough to shim your lathe level. If you want to
preclude any possibility of leaks through the bottom of the hole,
buy an epoxy embedded type anchor system. The bolt or stud sets in
solid epoxy which should seal the hole. Let the epoxy cure properly.
A good building supply house carries these things. I just don't know
if you can buy just four. Make sure you do not over drill in diameter
or depth. Protect your eyes and carefully blow out all concrete dust
with air, whichever anchoring system you use. Later removal is not
simple. I have had to resort to cutting it off at floor level with
an oxy-acetylene torch and later, when they became commonly
available, an angle grinder with metal cutting wheel. Dave
(7998) |
| How deep is
the SB 9 inch bench top? |
| I may be purchasing
a 9 inch model B and I wondered how wide the bench top needs to be
to hold the lathe, motor, etc. Would someone please post that info
here? Can that lathe be easily converted to run the motor from below
if I built a custom bench? JH (8012) |
| If the
lathe is a rear mount motor, then you will need aprox 3' deep and a
little extra (Your option ) according to the bed length. I do not
think you could do an under table motor mount being the way the
headstock is designed. I guess you could add and extra set of a
pulley drive train but again that would also take room for the extra
pulley setup. Clint (8013) |
| My former
colleague from work needed something to keep busy after he was laid
off so he made me some new wooden benches for my lathes. He
laminated two layers of 3/4 inch plywood to form the tops. We were
able to get 2 benches out of 1 4 x 8 sheet. The benches are 2 feet
by 4 feet. The big pulley hangs over the back a little bit but all
the pieces bolt nicely to the tops. One of my lathes had the tensioner rod extended to move the motor unit back farther. I had to
shorten it back to the standard configuration and shorten the belt.
Glen (8016) |
| I have my 9"
on a 26 1/2" deep bench top up against a wall. But, I had to alter
(shorten) the turnbuckle belt tensioning arrangement and tuck the
motor right up close to the rear of headstock. Works fine.
Neil (8018) |
| The erection
drawing that south bend has for the B models calls for a 25" deep
bench. That's with a 53" belt. That gives you a lot of overhang in the
front and no place to lay the wrenches down, so I made mine 30".The
setup follows the drawing working from the back, and has an extra 5"
on the front. These flat belt machines seem to run smoother with long
belts. I guess the long belt damps out some of the vibration. Try to
get in touch with Randy at SBL and get that drawing. It has a plan
view and side elevation of the machine and table top. RC (8019) |
| I think the
mounting pattern is on page 14 of the US Army SBL manual. Glen (8021) |
| South Bend
Bench |
| I'm just about to acquire a
model C 9", 17" BC, rear countershaft, shipped out Dec 4th 1940, to
England. I will be bringing it home in about 3 weeks. In the
meantime, I'm arranging space and want to build a bench to take the
lathe. I've seen mention of sets of plans that SB gave away free
with every lathe at one time, to build a bench. I've also spotted,
in photographs etc. on enthusiasts websites, a bench design that is
obviously from some sort of consistent plan, which tends to reinforce the idea that there was a plan, or perhaps even a factory
built unit. Does anyone have a set of these plans, or a bench that
they could at least measure the external dimensions for me? I can
pick up detailed construction from the photos I've seen. It would be
so nice to see the little beauty mounted on a matching bench. The
lathe is presently some way away, and the countershaft , obviously,
is separate right now, so I am unsure as to how wide I need to make
the bench, to allow for sitting of the countershaft pedestal behind
the machine. Does anyone have any thoughts on how to arrange a chip
tray? Len
(9143) |
| The bench
that my friend the welder and I are making, looks like a giant
sawhorse 50"L 40"H [that's too high for ordinary--but I'm 6'5"] and
30"D at the base with the countershaft assembly mounted right at the
top of the the rear left leg. We may not do the small extension for
the countershaft foot--we may simply bolt it right to the back of
the leg as high as possible, haven't yet determined belt
clearance...if we were to divorce the motor from the countershaft
and put it down below on the leg with a longer motor-to-countershaft
belt then the countershaft could almost snug right up to the
headstock. The top is 8"x1.5" channel stock and the legs 2"x3"
I-beam in a triangle as viewed from the end [with a bit of plate on
top to bolt-through the channel stock]; a bit of the same I-beam
with bolt-through end plates from the center of the bed to each of
the lower end pieces to hold it square; the chip tray will simply be
a piece of sheet stock with the edges bent up. Here's some bad ASCII
art; the solid lines are channel stock and the broken lines are
I-beam: front view: _______________ | / | | / | | / | | / | | / | |/
| end view from headstock end showing small extension for
countershaft support: ______ /| / | / | / | / | ------------ And
from tailstock end: ______ /| / / | / / | / | / | ------------ For
now, my lathe sits on a very oil-soaked bench made of odds-and-ends
lumber that is likely as old as the lathe itself [1937]--the 2x6's
actually measure 2x6! (9144) |
I have the
original blueprints for a 1943 Southy 9 inch model A, B, and C floor
cabinet. It is a behemoth with a two shelf cabinet with doors on the
headstock end and 4 drawers on the tailstock end. If any body is
interested let me know. max
(9145) |
| Brian, your bench sounds very good and strong. I'm
rather after the "original" wooden bench that South Bend either made
or supplied plans for. I'll end up doing something similar to
yours if I can't locate any. Len (9146) |
| This is
definitely the one I'm seeing in various photographs, and it's the
one I'd like to copy. I've replied to Max offlist to try to arrange
copies. what a FAST result. I'm looking forward to some interesting
talk about these good looking lathes. Len (9147) |
| Afternoon Max
I'd love to see those blueprints. If you could post them on the
group page that would be great. Or contact me offline that would
work for me to. Bill (9148) |
| I will try and scan
them and then email them to you. I don t know if it will work. max
(9149) |
| Max I
am interested in a copy. Maybe you post it to the group! Butch (9157) |
| Wood Lathe
Bench Plan |
| I made a
new album folder (Wooden Lathe Bench) in:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SouthBendLathePix/
our sister group for pictures. Click on the "photos" link on the
menu of the home page to enter. This is a picture of an original SBL
blueprint from 1937 of a wood and metal lathe bench including
drawers. Max provided these and I uploaded them for him. RichD
(9231) |
| Bench width
|
| Does anybody knows what
the minimum width for a table or bench is to mount a standard 9"
model A, horizontal drive lathe? Bill (9292) |
| The army lathe
manual at:
http://metalworking.com/DropBox/_2001_retired_files/sbarmylathe.pdf
gives the dimensions and the hole layout for the 9", including the
countershaft. I can't recall whether it gives table dimensions but
there is enough information given that you can figure it out. If you
use the hole layout double or triple check it as it didn't seem to
work for me. My bench now has big slots for the countershaft holes. John (9294) |
| I am also
working on this problem. The drawings I have from SB as well as that
military manual do not directly correspond with measurements I have
made on my components. The 9" blueprints I was faxed by SB are
identical to the 10" blueprints in the mil manual. My counter shaft
unit is not that tall no matter how I hold it. I may do this the
hard way (trial and error) to find minimum width based on my space
available and then run a serpentine belt from NAPA. Tom (9300) |
| A friend of mine
built me two new benches for my 9" SB's. We were able to get both
benches from a single 4' x 8' sheet of 3/4" plywood. The tops are 2'
x 4' minus a little for the saw kerfs. I found 2' by 4' galvanized
steel sheet metal to protect the tops at Menards. I had to replace
the belt on my V belt drive lathe and cut down the tension rod
because someone had put a longer belt on it and extended the rod to
account for it. The 9" pulley hangs over the back a little but it
doesn't cause a problem. I used a center punch to locate all the
holes through the mounting holes on the lathe after squaring
everything up with a framing square. Glen (9301) |
| What is the
distance from the center of the hinge of your countershaft pulley
pedestal to the closest bed mounting hole? How is the vibration? Your
running v-belts can't they be shorter than flats but have to be
tighter? Tom (9302) |
| I am at work and my
lathes are in the basement at home. If you need the measurement,
I'll get for you tomorrow. One of my lathes is V- belt and the other
one is flat belt. I didn't have to modify the length of the flat
belt unit to fit it on the bench. You just need to make sure that
you can adjust the tension rod so it will work. The adjustment range
is pretty wide. I am still trying to resolve some vibration issues
on the flat belt version, but I don't think it's got anything to do
with the distance from the hinge to the lathe or the belt length.
Glen (9304) |
| I'd appreciate
those measurements if it's not too much trouble. Did you use the
fact. flatbelt? If not how long is yours? What type? Tom (9305) |
| Tom, I have been
going through a binder I have on SB stuff. South Bend lists two
benches as accessories. One is a cabinet bench CE1731 and the other
an angle steel bench CE1780. Both have tops that are 26"x60"x1 3/4"
and are listed for 9" and 10K machines. Fred (9307) |
| South Bend's
drawing shows the bench width as 28". The very nice blueprint that
Max was kind enough to send around shows a length of 66", but I
would guess this length would be modified for various bed lengths.
66" would be rather long for the 42" or so of the Model C 9 x 42.
Height is shown as 30.5"..Attached is a simplified line drawing
taken mostly from the blueprint but without any dimensions. I drew
this to work out a cutting list for the timber. It might help. Len
(9315) |
| Incidentally, I
asked Rose Marvin if they still carried the blueprint. They don't.
Len (9316) |
| Bill, Having just
finished a bench for my 9" 3' bed lathe, I can say that I made it
24" wide (+1/4" wood strip to hide the plywood edge) by 48" long. I
used a piece of 3/4" thick 13-ply-plywood from Home Depot glued
(using liquid hide glue) on top of (4) 2x6 dimensional lumber pieces
cut also to 48 long. The 2x6's were through-bolted to Grizzly brand
heavy welded metal legs (2). I did have to cut down both the height
of the adjustable legs to get the lathe at the overall height I
wanted. I also had to cut off the "ears" on the metal legs to get
the legs width less than 24" so they didn't stick out beyond the
table top. I think I cut them to ~22" wide. I then used contact
cement to glue a piece of off-white Formica to the plywood top. I
know, I know, I should have used a metal top. I did look for a
24"x48" peace of aluminum, but came up empty handed. Since I will be
using the lathe primarily for turning wood, I felt the Formica top
was sufficient. As Glen pointed out, you will have to both shorten
the belt and shorten the belt adjustment mechanism to fit the 24"
wide top. I guess if I truly tried, I could have gotten the table
width to 22" with effort, however, since my motor had a very large
capacitor that faces forward, I can move the countershaft/motor
mount just so close to the lathe itself. However you proceed, make
sure there is no interference between the motor in the belt
tight/belt loose positions and the lathe body. John
(9320) |
| Tom, The
distance from the hinge on the drive unit to the back mounting bolt
on the lathe is about 11 1/2 inches. That is very approximate as the
measurement is not easy to make. The back of the drive unit plate is
even with the back of the bench, basically as far back as you can
get it. That leaves enough room to mount the lathe on the 2 foot
wide bench with 3 inches from the front edge of the bench to the
edge of the foot on the bed. I didn't change the belt length or the
tension rod. The belt is the standard length. The back legs of the
bench are set at an angle to give it a little better stability. The
legs are 30 inches apart at the floor. (9335) |
| Bill The big drive
pulley is a problem when mounting on a narrow bench. If you are
prepared to build your own countershaft unit you can fit things onto
an 18" wide bench with negligible cross slide handle overhang. Room
for a motor of up to about 1 hp. Needs a two stage primary drive
reduction tho'. Back belt style is most compact but needs a lathe to
modify the pulleys. Two separate runs is easy enough, especially if
the useful bits box is well stocked, and is convenient if you want
to use a two speed primary and /or fit a sprung tensioner roller
type belt clutch. I have just discovered that bolting sheet metal
filing cabinets together makes good, strong, benches for small
machine tools . I don't know what standard US sizes are but I cut
three UK 4 drawer units down to 3 drawer height and removed the
tops. Bolting the cabinets together and putting a 1" blockboard top
on (cut down from an old ex civil service desk) made a really solid
support for a Taig mill. Be amply strong for a 9" SouthBend. Filing
cabinet drawers have nice ball bearing slides so they move easily
even with lots of weight in them. Dividers, side extensions and lift
out trays to suit your needs are easy sheet metal work. Cost me
nothing 'cos the firm was throwing the stuff out and was quite happy
to save the cost of skip hire or a removal contractor! Clive
(9355) |
| Bench Top |
| Has anyone ever cut
down a solid core door for a bench top? I am wondering what the core
is made of. Since they are pretty thick it would seem to be a good
basis for a lathe bench top. Would not want to use the whole thing
due to space constraints. Fred (9574) |
| Some "solid" care
doors have a core of MDF or chipboard. If I was going to use wood, I
would probably use 3/4" plywood, ripped and doubled (or tripled) up
to 1 1/2" or 2 1/4". That would be pretty stable. I think I would
glue the plies, to prevent any movement, and make the whole thing
more rigid. What would you use for legs? Bob (9575) |
| If you can
find a solid core door with a metal skin you might have something.
Something as mentioned by another solid core gets you chip or
particle board ! Both of these are still strong until they get wet.
If you can find a industial type door or a high end residential door
you may find one with a solid wood core. If you can reseal the edges
so it core stays dry you can probably use either type if you use a
center brace. Frank (9576) |
| Bob, I just picked
up a table with an undercarriage the was produced by Lier Sigler.
The legs are made of 2 1/4" deep by channel and individually
adjustable in height. The horizontal cross runners (front and back)
are the same channel an of necessity will be cut down. The top
currently is 30x72x1 1/4 inches particle board. The table will be
for a 9A HMD 3.5' bed. I am planning on a top that is 30x48 inches.
I may just cut the existing top down and put a layer of 5/8" MDF on
top. Haven't decided yet. I picked the table up at my local surplus
dealer for $40.00. Couldn't turn it down, even if I don't use it for
the lathe. Fred (9577) |
| Frank, check
my reply to Bob's response. Fred (9578) |
| Yeah I
understand I would have had to bought it too. (9579) |
| I just finished the
structural work on my bench today in fact - co-incidence!. I used
4x3 for legs and braces and two layers of 3/4" ply for the top. I
intended purchasing 1", but the price almost doubled between 3/4"
and 1". As this is only a temporary bench until I make an exact copy
of the SB bench that Max posted the blueprint for, I went for the
thinner one, which I'll probably add to in the final version. I was
careful to make sure the ply for the top was absolutely flat before
I glued on the second layer, it would have been dumb to build in a
twist! One cannot rely on the fact that this is stiff board, it will
sag or bend ever so slightly if not properly supported while gluing.
Sometimes, cutting pieces of ply from larger boards (8'x4' is
standard here in the UK, though 10x5 can also be got) will release
tensions that were captured in the manufacture, and allow the cut
pieces to bend. Also, due to the way that the grain on the veneers
lies, the board is stiffer in its long direction than across its
width. Best way to check for flatness is with two longish battens
placed across the board (I used two four foot pieces of 2x2) near to
the ends. Sight across one to the other, and any twist or bend will
show up easily. These are called "winding boards", or winding pieces
in the woodworking trades (in UK at least). I've seen the "all up"
weights for 9"SB lathes posted somewhere, maybe on the SB website,
and if I recall correctly, my model C runs to about 600 lbs, which
is a lot. I've found a good substitute for a chip/suds tray - a
thick plastic water tray used by gardeners for seed trays, it 1.5"
deep, 15" wide and 3'.10" long and cheap. Len (9580) |
| Solid Core Doors
vs. real wood bench tops I have used Solid Core Doors for drafting
table tops 40 years ago but have found various unacceptable fillers
are now used varying from "scrap" lumber to chip board. I wouldn't
trust any of them for a lathe support. I have used 2x4s flat, glued
together and cross-tied with steel rods and most recently 2x4s on
edge, glued together and cross-tied with steel rods. I did that
because the cheap 2x4s I bought are now a scant 1-3/8 x 3-1/4 and
the wood was so soft, I could indent it with my fingernail. Times
have changed. After you drill and glue, the top has to be sanded,
that removes another 1/8" if you were careful. If you spend the
money for structural grade wood, you can edge glue it. It is cheaper
to get what you can, on sale; at Home Depot and face glue it. If you
use plywood, be careful about the quality of the glue in the plywood
and the quality of the face and interior plies. Make sure all the
layers of plywood you use are fastened together with nails, screws
and or glue. You are fighting a structural phenomenon in bending
called horizontal shear. That means if you just lay the sheets on
top of each other and load the bench, the sheets will slip
horizontally instead of giving you the depth you think you have to
resist the bending forces. Use a minimum of 2 sheets. I prefer 3
sheets for a 2-1/4" deep top. AND remember, ?" plywood isn't ?"
thick anymore. Dave (9581) |
| Len, Your mention
of the winding boards is interesting. Would never have thought of
that. Here in the US 4x8 sheets are the norm. 3/4 is common in the
building supply and handy man stores. I have never seen 1" though.
As for the weight of your model C I do not believe it weighs that
much. Somewhere buried in the SB web site I found the shipping
weight for a 9A. It was just over 500 lbs. Allowing 50 to 60 lbs for
crating leave the machine in the 450 lb. range. Although I would not
try and pick it up to test that. Fred (9582) |
| Dave, I think if I use plywood I will get a sheet of marine
grade. That should take care of the glue problems and also make it
waterproof. For building up the thickness I would use resource anon
(spelling) glue which is also waterproof. I manages an EMC
compliance lab some years ago and that is what we used to build up
our turntables. They were usually 12 to 16 feet in diameter and
built up of three thicknesses of 3/4 ply. These tables were outside
in the Texas weather for many years and are still going strong. Not
only were they glued but were also screwed together while drying.
This same method should work wonderfully for a lathe bench top. Fred
(9583) |
| Dave mean
business!! What did you use for legs on the 2X4 face glued table? I
and thinking about doing that exact thing for my mill/drill
600-800-lbs range. Do you think it will hold it ? We made one for
our construction shop where I used to work it sat on a 6x6 frame
work that thing was strong we topped it in sheet metal to prevent
damaging it with heavy parts. Frank
(9584) |
| Frank, Now
you're upping the ante! Legs! OK here are leg parameters: 1. They
have to carry the vertical load, so good quality 2x4s or 3x3s or
even 4x4s or steel angles. 2. They have to be placed to limit the
vertical deflection of the bench top. That is a function of the
stiffness (moment capacity) of the top you decide on, the load, and
where that load is applied to the top. For instance, if the lathe
lags rest near the ends of the top, intermediate legs probably are
not needed. The load has to get from the top into the legs. A
transverse crossbeam will probably be required. Wood or steel angle.
3. Solidly attach the legs to the top/cross beam. Steel angles,
gussets, bracing and so forth. 4. Solidly attach the legs to the
floor. Steel angles probably. 5. Lateral bracing. It must not
wobble! If possible, attach the bench to the wall for lateral
stability. Make sure the wall can take the load. I have a friend who
braced his overhead bridge crane to the masonry wall of his shop
only to have the longitudinal loads from stopping the bridge, crack
the wall. You do not necessarily need a structural engineer for
this; just common sense will frequently suffice. There is an old
joke, I received an engineering degree from a prestigious university
but common sense is a gift from God. My 750# mill/drill sits on a
table consisting of 1/8" steel top plate, 4 steel angle legs
attached to four cross angles under the top plate, solid metal side
panels on 3 sides and gussets on the 4th. The mill load is near the
legs. All of the parameters above were met except that it is not
attached to a wall. No movement at all. No calculations. It just
"felt" right. Dave (9585) |
| Fred, At my age I
still largely think in what we call "Imperial", that is, feet and
inches, which was our standard, but some years ago we were forced by
Europe to change to metric for everything. Nowadays, one can even be
dragged into court and fined for selling anything by the pound
instead of by the kilo! Anyway, I quoted my ply as 3/4 out of
ingrained habit, but in reality it is sold as 18mm, which is about
7/10ths of an inch. The "inch" that is sold is actually 22mm, or
about 9/10ths. Curiously though, the board is STILL 8'x4'! I use a
reputable timber seller that I have used for many years, so I know
the material is OK, but Dave is absolutely right, the ply MUST be
good quality and without voids etc. There is a lot of ply around now
which has decent enough face veneers, but total rubbish on the
inside. I found the listing for my lathe (Model C, 17" BTC) weight -
507lbs, including countershaft assembly, which is the bare weight,
not with packaging. Len (9586) |
| What Dave is
telling you is solid enough for anything. In the absence of having a
table and and having to start from scratch look at the lathe cabinet
stand built by Ralph T. Walker. It was in the July/August 1989 issue
of The Home Shop Machinist. It is the finest lathe table I have ever
seen. Mr Walker liked it so much that he also built one for his
mill/drill. This is the bench I will ultimately build. Fred (9587) |
| Len, We wouldn't
want you to go to court over this now. Actually I understood what
you meant. If I had my way I would use Finn Ply or Apple Ply HVHC
(hardwood veneer hardwood core) plywood. 3/4" on top of the existing
1 1/4" particle board top that is already on the legs. Only problem
is that hardwood ply is extremely expensive. Oh well, I will work
something out in the interim until I build my ultimate bench. Fred
(9588) |
| I was just shopping
for some wood at home depot intending to face glue it. Virtually all
of the dimensional lumber they had was green (not kiln dried). I
have to believe that this would be a stability nightmare. One thing
they did have that might be interesting for some applications is 4x8
sheet of 1 1/8", 7 ply, tongue and groove floor underlayment. Ed
(9592) |
| Find a Salvage
business that tears down old houses and get some of the old yellow
pine lumber. It is so hard you almost can't drive a nail in it and
will have about 50 years of drying time by now. Randy (9593) |
| Dave, I am a very
simple man, How is this I have some 4" by 4" metal angle I think it
is about a 1/4" thick. if I build a box rather a cube out of this so
that the top pieces line up with the bolt hole in the base of the
mill/drill and then I anchor it to the floor. this should be strong
enough don't you think? Leaving the top off completely! Frank (9594) |
| So does anyone have
a copy of the plans to this table? (9595) |
| What I neglected to
add in my original posting, and probably more important, is that
great care must be taken not to induce a twist or bend of any sort
when actually fixing the top to the lower support structure. I KNOW
this, cos I just had a signal reminder!!..I started fixing my top a
few minutes ago, only to find a slight (less than 1/16th) inaccuracy
in the framework. I carefully sawed a thin wedge (1/8th at thickest
end, and two feet long) on the bandsaw, which I've glued to the
offending place. When that's dry I'll take it down with the sander
to its final size. Len (9596) |
| I agree, old yellow pine is
excellent. Before you buy, talk to an exterminator and find out what
termites look like. Dave (9597) |
| Frank, You are
correct, you do not need a top as long as you fully brace the legs
in both directions to prevent movement. Lathe bases are nothing but
braced leg systems with a chip pan between them. But look closely,
the bracing systems are hefty. Dave (9598) |
| Used office
furniture: get an old desk - very cheap - I have a couple of
WWII-vintage wooden desks that I use for optical work. The tops are
laminated oak with an oak veneer (that is usually peeling off, but
so what? these suckers are HEAVY and very stable. You could get a
metal one, if you prefer. They might be a bit low - they are about
31-32 inched high. Make sure the drawers fit. The wooden ones will
be sticky, but silicone spray fixes them nicely. I have two in my
office that I refinished (they are beautiful!) One is 34 x 59, the
other is 36 x 66. In my shop I have a smaller one. All of mine were
free - they were throwing them out! Frank (9599) |
| I have that
particular issue but unfortunately it would have to go by snail
mail. If interested, send me your address off list. Fred (9600) |
| Frank, That will
work very well, but when you come down, you can see how I went to
AutoZone and got an oil drip pan that goes under a car to catch
drips. Works GREAT as a chip pan and catch for coolant! My stand is
similar to what you envision, except mine has pipe legs (scrap from
work) with angle iron for a top rim. (9602) |
| Last night I
thought I had sent an e-mail on this subject, but now it looks like
I deleted it instead of sent it! Anyway, my suggestion was to go to
a used office furniture place and get a big old circa WWII wooden
desk. They have thick oak laminated tops, usually veneered (with the
veneer lifting, but so what) I have 2 of these in my office that I
refinished. Got them free - they were being tossed out and I
refinished them ad they are gorgeous. About 32 inches high, one has
36 x 66 inch top; the other has 33 x 61 top. In my shop I have two
others, (not refinished, but also free) that I use for optical work.
One is a good deal smaller, one is about the size of my big office
desk and is real ugly, but so heavy I can barely push it. These
desks are RIGID - they have full length ply enclosures on three
sides and the knee-well is lined also. They don't flex. They also
have drawers already built in, which is good, except some have a
funky typewriter device that is meant to make the typewriter
disappear when pushed in. That can be ripped out. Only problem is they
have six legs, but I suspect the inner 2 can be ignored. I think
this is about the cheapest and strongest way to get a good wooden
lathe bench. There are also some metal desks with a laminated top.
These were usually ex-military purchase and are pit ugly, but maybe
metal is better. I don't know. Just make sure the drawers fit - a
lot of times these desks are mated with another's drawers - this is
a case of drawers getting into something, rather than vice versa!
;-). They can stick (and will) but you can solve that with a belt
sander and silicone spray lube. Anyway, this is worth looking into,
I think, rather than trying to laminate your own tops or using
particle board (which will flex - I think the stuff actually flows
under load). Frank (9605) |
| With the discussion
on building benches here is a drawing of the fifth bench I have
built recently to this design and probably the 20th over the years.
It is built from Strong Tie components as listed with the included
factory booklet using 2x4s for all framing and 1/2" ply for top and
shelving covered with 20g aluminum flashing and edged with DIY store
aluminum angle. The bench as shown in the attached picture has one
of my RF30s on the right end and a large 5 speed drill press on the
left. It was intended to put my 9" SB "A" on the center section but
it was decided to put it on a similar bench of its own so the center
could be used as a work area for deburring with a rubber wheel on
the small bench grinder. This has been in use now for about 5 years
and has shown no problems even with heavy cuts in 304 stainless on
the 750lb mill/drill. Most of our benches that we have built in the
shop are to this construction method because of its strength. The
bench was dragged to its current location from about 20 feet away
when we did some relocation a couple of years ago with the mill and
drill press on it by about four people and everything stayed in
place and solid. For strength, ability to customize to need and
durability as well as cost this is the best I know of. JWE (9606) |
| Wood is stronger
than you think. That 2x4 table you are disparaging could support the
lathe and mill on one leg. Seriously, a single 3' long 2x4 leg is
good for about 6000 lbs. A single 5' long 2x4 beam is good for about
2000 lbs. obviously I am over simplifying it, but I think you are
getting the idea. As far as the Simpson connectors go, they are very
good. Depending on your local, if they are not available there are
equivalent alternates by kant-sag and usp. Here is a link to the
catalogue page from simpson showing back view and other varieties of
rigid tie connectors. you get the idea I think.
http://www.strongtie.com/products/connectors_list/RTA.html
The only other addition I would make to Jim's plans is to consider
using the SD8x1.25 screws instead of nails. they are about $5/100 or
so. Nice truss head self drilling screws. the home desperation type
stores should have them as well. The connectors are about $2/per. (I
just used a bunch of them on a job). dennis (9609) |
| Don't get
me wrong ! I just never thought wood would be a good way to go! I
guess coming from a heavy steel minded family I never gave it much
thought. I would rather use wood due to the limited funds in my
bank. Can you all help me with a good size to build? (9611) |
| Dennis Those are
the screws I used to build all the benches mentioned. Screws are
faster and more reliable than nails. Nails will pull out under load
or vibration while good screws never will, makes for a very strong
and solid bench. JWE (9612) |
| The attached
picture shows an older bench to the same design that replaces one
that had heavy metal legs. The bench when it had metal legs would
move all over the place when cutting metal in the vise with a
hacksaw. Using the same laminated wood top but with a 2x4 base the
bench is now solid and does not move around under load. Build a good
wood bench and level it or make provisions for leveling it and you
will never be sorry. JWE (9613) |
| If I was building a
bench for my lathe knowing what I do now, I would make it big enough
for the footprint of the lathe with some extra on each end to set
things on. I would also put a small lip all the way around so things
don't vibrate or roll off. I would also consider putting a vertical
board on the back side to hang things on that you want to keep
handy. If you put on small shelves, see above about the lip. I don't
know about putting up pegboard due to vibration- I think things
might have a tendency to jingle annoyingly or shake loose. I would
also look for a way to put at least one drawer under the top unless
you have another work table with drawers in it that is close by.
Drawers are great because they keep things organized and when you
remember to keep them closed, you don't get flying crap all over
your tools. Bob (9614) |
| Frank: sorry if my
post was worded a little strong. Yes, I will be happy to help out. I
am a structural engineer. Pound for pound, wood is stronger than
steel.. however, its is not as stiff. Think springs here. Wood is
perfectly acceptable material, with a couple of cautions. In the
size that Jim showed in his drawing, everything looks good. If you
were to make the length smaller, that would make things 'better'.
Better in this case means stiffer. too small and your connectors
would interfere. Cautions to use of wood as tool bases: oils, water
and the like, shrinkage and vibration. Some oils can have a negative
effect on wood over long periods of time. Solution, paint or
varnish! water: wet wood is not as strong as dry wood. Again, paint,
especially the ends. shrinkage: use dry wood if you can. pressure
treated wood is wet. look at the stamp on the wood, it should have a
stamp on it that says something like "doug-fir...kiln dried" or
"SPF...19% moisture max" this means that it was dried at one point.
between you and the kiln is another story. Notice the ends are
painted, its for id and to reduce shrinkage cracks. Wood shrinks and
swells naturally, not enough to normally consider, but if its going
to be in an unheated garage for example, pain the frame. vibration:
generally speaking, longer, skinnier members vibrate more than short
stocky ones. For the mill, vibration might not be an issue. For the
lathe, it might be. gluing the plywood top to the 2x's with
something like liquid nails, and using screws would make the plywood
and the 2x's work together COMPOSITELY. This means that the two work
together. much stiffer. I think one tube of glue would do you quite
well. The mill drill guys are always raving about weighing down
their mills with sand or concrete for vibration. I don't know if its
because the sheet metal if the stand that vibrates or if the whole
thing needs it. However, the wood stand would be the lightest. I
also think that its the stiffest. I don't think that you need to add
any weight. dennis (9615) |
| Flooring |
| This summer, we
will build a garage for our machines and I wondered if there were
any opinions as to floor and foundation. We have some SBL 16s, a
Heavy 10, a BP Series II (a monster!!) and a True Trace - J head. I
thought about the foundation and flooring. I lean to a 2" sand
underlay and 6" of concrete. That would allow two layers of wire
mesh and rebar - staggered apart. Then put in stainless steel
bolts-screws for attachment to the machines. To complicate things,
it is Texas Black Clay dirt. Truly annoying stuff that shifts and
moves about and will crack any normal foundation (i.e., get out of
level real quickly. Kind of leads me to think of more concrete (with
accelerated drying) or a deeper sand sub-surface. I don't want my
machines to vibrate and I don't want my floors to crack. Could even
stress them like bridges are done. Just thought to ask
opinions first. Jerry R.
(10272) |
| Over here
on similar (by description anyway) earth, we might use a "raft".
This is basically an upside down box with no lid. What appear to be
normal foundations are dug at the perimeter, for (say) 3 ft deep or
could be more, and whatever depth is needed for floor thickness, the
whole spaces being then reinforced in together,
before casting the concrete, with everything tied up as a unit, even
when two layers of mesh steel are laid. This structure seems to be
much more stable than a simple flat slab. I've seen lots of these
done under houses (almost ALL our houses are brick and concrete
block built, so possibly heavier than your US general house), but
cannot claim to be expert, as that side of building was not where I
had much experience. However, it might be worth putting the idea of
a raft to someone more expert than I. Len
(10273) |
| I know what
you mean about clay - oddly enough in my local area in Vermont we
are on a very thick layer of the stuff. When I lived in England it
was a huge building problem there, too. BE CAREFUL - I've been
trying to stabilize a slope that is on a deep clay base for the past
8 years and am finally getting it. (good thing too, my house is on
it!) However, there are known ways of getting around it. First, it
helps if the hydration of the clay stays approximately the same
year-round. Once the building is up, don't put in a drainage ditch
or plant a willow nearby (or remove one!). This sometimes
contradicts the notion that we should install a lot of drainage
around footings. If you start to drain a clay base it might take
years to stabilize again. Guy I knew years ago poured a slab that
was slightly concave on the underside (thicker at the edges that at
the middle) with good footings all around. Hasn't shifted in 40
years. But, if I were you, I would talk to some commercial builders
in the area who have personal experience with the properties of the
stuff you are thinking of building on. Also, try your nearest state
college with an engineering school. Find out by a telephone call who
teaches this stuff and send him a polite e-mail asking for help.
I've done this several times and have gotten wonderful support and
info from great guys who like what they teach and are very pleased
that someone from the outside has found out that they are good! But
I think you are correct to worry - clay is tricky stuff. It oozes
slowly (plastic deformation) and small changes in hydration produce
huge dimensional changes. Good luck with your project. Sounds like
you'll have a great shop! Frank
(10274) |
| Jerry, The
pound per square inch rating of the concrete is a function of the
actual "mix" and amount of water and air in the mix (slump and
aeration) the faster drying time the more it will crack. I assume
that you are poring slab on grade. 6 inches 3500 psi should hold
anything you can throw at it. Also all concrete will crack, that is
why after the pour and finish it is customary to saw cut the slab to
control cracking (it will crack along the saw cuts). There is a good
reference book available called " building the multi-use barn" by
John D. Wagner ISBN 0-913589-76-4 the best reference I have seen on
building a shop. I am also assuming that you are using a wood frame
walls "stick built" If you are going to lay block then things are a
little different. You must pour a foundation first and then pour a
"floating slab". archie (10275) |
| Jerry, Where
are you located in Texas? I am in the same problem as you but have
had not problem to date in my garage shop. Some of the members of
our club have out buildings with huge machines also and do not seem
to have a problem either. I could see what they did for thickness of
concrete when built. Fred (10279) |
| Jerry What
part of Texas are you at, I am familiar with the pad prep for slabs
in the black clay of North Texas. You can email me off list if you
wish I can give you some suggestions on the pad prep and type of
slab to install with out going to far over board I do Earthwork all
over North Texas. Clint (10284) |
| Do What road
builders have done for years in clayey soil areas. Remove as much
clay as you can afford to dig out, backfill with graded rock and
sand base, vibration compact, then overlay with your 6" concrete
slab. 2" of sand over clay is useless. There are other techniques
used to reinforce clay with additives and proper "mixing" that
increase their load bearing capacity. None of this is available at
your local rent-a-tool store. Since I do not know the consistency of
the clay I can only guess that it is not too good and a minimum of a
12" base would be required. Uniform grading of the base material is
essential and proper wetting and compaction is required. This
requires specialized equipment and is not for amateurs. An
alternative is called a "mat" foundation. This "floats" on the clay
but must be properly reinforced to accommodate the positive and
negative moments developed due to uneven support of the clay from
below and uneven loading by the machinery from above. Based on an
educated guess, 8" with a layer of re-bar in each direction, top and
bottom and sized for the moments will be needed. I've seen many of
these slabs 12" to 18" thick depending on support capacity and load.
You need a soils engineer and a structural engineer. Some structural
engineers can do the soil data evaluation but you will need a
testing company to take samples and establish soil analysis
parameters for the engineer to work with. Dave
(10286) |
| Jerry, years
ago after getting out of college, I was a construction superintendent
in Houston. The water table there is about 2 feet under the ground
and the freeze line was literally about a foot, which astounds folks
here in Ohio. The soil there was clay as well. We found that the
only foundation which worked (there are likely to be advances since
the mid 70s) was a post tension slab. In addition to the regular sitework, 1/2 inch cables were run to the outside of the forms and
secured with special nuts and washers, so the form looked like a
tennis racket with no tension. After the pour the cables were pulled
tight as the concrete cured, using special tooling. As I remember,
we had no problems with foundation cracking in a part of the country
notorious for it. Bill (10290) |
| Structural
building design is what I do. what it sounds like you have is a
sensitive clay which is over much of Texas. its water sensitive. you
REALLY need to do is talk to a local ENGINEER to get advice on your
project. either structural or geotechnical. the main problem with
sensitive clays and shales is they react with water by swelling.
conversely, they shrink when dried out. you could consult a good
concrete contractor or excavator about it, but they will give you
rules of thumb. no real reasons, just the way they have done it a
thousand times before. they would be very conservative and might
spend more of your money than you want them to. its a crap shoot.
yes they can build it, but it may or may not be what you need or
want. mats are typically used where low bearing capacity is
encountered and settlement is a issue. it does not sound like you
have that problem, at least you did not state it as so. if you build
it as a mat and heavily reinforce it, if the soil starts to move,
you will end up with either a dome or a pit. movement of 2-3 inches
is not uncommon before the slab cracks. as far a piers and grade
beams: these can be VERY expensive to build properly. once you have
them installed you need to build a slab over them. often collapsible
cardboard forms are used to support the slab until the slab cures
and before the soil starts moving. as far as postensioning cables
go, its not something a homeowner can do. there is GREAT force in
those cables, on the order of 250,000 psi. if you loose one, it can
be life threatening and dangerous. the effect of post tensioning is
to induce large compressive forces in the plane of the slab which
gives it great strength out of plane. the slab will still move, but
it won't crack as much. it will crack, but the cracks might not
open. a soils report would be good, but you could probably get by
with a verbal from an experienced soils guy. around here they run on
the order of a few thousand dollars. it doesn't really pay for a
4-5K garage project. bottom line is, talk to an experienced
professional. the fee you pay them is your assurance that it will be
done right. dennis (10292) |
| There are some things I had not even
thought about mentioned. I am in Richardson, which is just next
to (North) of Dallas. The soil, there, for those unfamiliar with
it... is "Black Texas Clay" - which will expand and contract
radically... It makes it very difficult, if not impossible, to build
a basement. In the summer, I can find backyard cracks two inches
wide that go to bedrock, or so I assume. Other places, you can can
find two pieces of ground that will slide against each other by 1 or
even 2 inches. Flat ground some parts of the year will be "rolly"
other parts of the year. Like a yard full of little San Andreas
Faults. Bumps in the dirt rise and fall. That is the Clay we have.
Houses here are usually built on floating slabs - and all masonry
brick walls eventually crack. So where this started was in the
necessity to align my lathe "flat" - because I want it to be
accurate. The lathes are 8 feet long (SBL 16s) and I want to bolt
them to the floor. The idea is to eliminate as much vibration as
possible. Vibration is the enemy of precision as the weight of the
part increases or length of the work increases. I can, if worse case,
use cast iron (minimum vibration transmittal) spacers machined to
fit - if I had to. Can also build a cast iron weight attached to the
lathe/mill to assist in keeping it steady. The Mill weighs 6-7000
pounds and will vibrate. As it slings a big load, I want to keep it
fixed and stable. Only way I can really get it accurate is to lock
it down... Seems that I started with truing the ways with a
precision level and have worked my way down to (1) adding Iron
weights as a stabilizer to the base if needed and (2) getting it
bolted to a stable, flat foundation. Ergo my question... I think you
are right about contacting a real professional, with experience in
the area. But I need to take a proposal to them to get them to Bless
or Modify it. I would think some people in the group have similar
questions about leveling. Can't fool yourself into thinking you are
building reasonably precise stuff when the lathe is not level and
ways are not trued. Especially true on a vertical mill, where
there is additional height and the heavy table is moving about all
the time. The garage won't be stick frame - code prohibit that and
so it's likely block up to a certain height with steel frame U
channel with siding beyond. Insulated, heated and cooled, within
reason. Won't be using wood frame at all - except for wood
ceiling/flooring for an attic work space. Whatever code will allow.
There is a real potential in cracking - but the comment about
pre-stressed floor installation is right - it is a dangerous thing to
install and a professional outfit needs to do it. Jerry (10297) |
| DV, these
responses seem to cover a range of techniques, and many may be just
the thing, but some may not and it is difficult to tell them apart.
up here in the east they use separate cast-in-place foundations for
every (bigger) machine, which just goes to show that different
techniques and methods apply to the circumstances. If I were in the
position of being your next door neighbor and longtime friend, I
would tell you to find a structural engineer in the area who could
give you some friendly but accurate advice at minimal cost. many
retired engineers still like to exercise the brain cells on items
like this. An important part of engineering is figuring out how to
skin the cat at optimal-minimal cost so they generally can approach
the situation in that way. (10331) |
| 9" A Which
Height? |
| Can anyone help?
what is the criteria for setting the height of your lathe (center
line to floor) . or bench height. any one have suggestion . Setting
up new work (lathe) bench. Also are bigger dials available for the
cross feed ? Tony |
| This really depends
on your size. Since I am relatively tall at 6'1", I am getting
tired of stooping over when using my 10L, and am about ready to
raise the standard bench by about 6". I have already done this to my
Bridgeport mill and am very happy with the results. John |
| I like most lathes
to have the spindle nose close to elbow height. Big lathes a few
inches lower to make humping a heavy chuck/workpiece into place a
bit easier. Stan |
| The world seems to
be divided between "low-lathe" and "high-lathe" people who agree
only that the standard compromise height is not quite right. As a
"high-lathe" type I would set the bench for a 9" at a height that
puts the carriage traverse hand-wheel at about, or slightly above,
elbow level. Naturally with a high set lathe you have to be more
careful about eye protection from flying swarf. Probably a good
thing as I find that when using a low lathe it is awfully tempting
not to bother as swarf is rarely thrown far enough up to be an eye
hazard. Don't forget the effect of duck-boards if you use these to
stand on so helping reduce the tendency to tread swarf everywhere.
If you are making your own set-up I would strongly advise adding 2"
raising blocks under the feet. The extra daylight makes swarf
collection and removal far easier, especially if you prefer to use a
separate, removable, tray rather than build one into the bench.
Frankly the standard feet don't provide enough daylight for a useful
swarf tray. With 2" raising blocks on my old 9' I found that the
acrylic cover off a discarded record deck made an excellent swarf
tray (after about 10 years in the goodie box). Clive |
| Setting the Early
lathebuilders had a standard of about 42 inches above the floor for
the center of a lathe. I don't know the reasoning behind it, but
they would put a large lathe in a pit to accomplish it. One thing
that someone said about 5'8" operators hits a cord though. I am
about that height and the ancient standard fits me to a T. I even
have my Pratt Whitney #3 mounted at that height. Another thought
that someone had about this issue is that long shafts may have been
turned by using two lathes to extend the bed length. The headstock
of one lathe was removed and the tailstock of the other was removed
the beds were aligned to take at least double the between centers
capacity. RC |
| Your forearm should
be horizontal when operating the cross slide. That is considered the
most comfortable. Ed |
| Lathe Setup
Question |
| Well now that I
have my SB 13" x 6' Lathe, I have to decide where to put it. Once I
do that, in looking at the SB booklet "Keeping Your Lathe in Trim",
there are numerous references to having your lathe bolted to the
floor and level. However, in my shop I really don't want to "bolt to
the floor" I'd rather use appropriate machine levelers. What
opinions do you all in the group have? Leveled and bolted or just
leveled and checked periodically? Mike (14364) |
| I prefer
using leveling feet, such as the large flat pads available from Enco
that have about 3/8 inch adjustment. Real easy to level, or re-level
if needed. They also cut down on noise transmission since they have
rubber pads. The feet are weight rated. Frank (14366) |
| Pads are
really easy to make, and I use them on my 13 x40 and I have not had
any problems. I recess the bottom of the foot and put hard rubber
conveyor belting in there, and that seems to work great.
Dee (14367) |
| Go to the SB
Lathe Pix site
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SouthBendLathePix/ and
check Fred's Stuff. I have a picture of the leveling feet (Royal)
that I used and one of the finished bench I made for my 9A. I use
these same feet on my mill which weighs approximately 1100 lbs. They
not only keep machines from walking but they are anti vibration
also. Fred (14368) |
| Workbench
plans |
| I've been thinking
about making a new workbench out of angle iron for my SB lathe. I
tried to search messages, not too successful. Now I recall seeing
SouthBends own design for a workbench, but I cannot remember where I
seen it. I have a small Mig welder on hand, so I was thinking of
making it out of angle iron, like Steve bedair did for his Chinese
9x20. All the woodworking tools are away at parents lake house, so
I'd prefer a workbench that is mostly metal. What are your thoughts?
I cant have a concrete workbench, need one that is moveable. I guess
I will design one in cad, then post it here again later for input.
Bill (15909) |
| Bill, Go
to the Southbendlathepix group. Look under the files link and there
is a Southbend Blueprint for a wooden lathe bench. BK (15911) |
| My lathe
bench is made out of angle Iron and channel Iron. It weighs more
than the 9" lathe that is on it. It is very rugged. The base is tow
U channels, about 10" welded to form a box. There are two
appendages, normal to the box, also made of U channel formed into a
box. One supports the belt Jack Shaft, the other just balances the
bench. There are four angle iron legs in each corner. These are
crossed braced. I am sure a Mack truck would lose a battle with this
bench. It is very stable and must be leveled and untwisted. The
lathe will follow it. There is no "give". Jim B. (15912) |
| Bill I have
been using benches made with the Simpson Strong Tie reinforcements
for 30 or more years now and nothing works better, JWE (15914) |
| I built (or
rather adapted) a nice custom lathe bench out of very old "Steelcase"
office desk. The thing was built like a battleship, but needed to be
cut down. I cut a 12" section out of the middle and brought the two
ends together. About five pieces of 2x6 lumber span the top which I
bolted the hell out of and set in existing channels under the top.
The original top is laminated between the bracing and some very high
density MDF, which I also used to brace across the old leg hole for
a shelf and stiffness. The storage drawers are great with plywood
bottoms, the pullout writing shelves come in hand and I even made a
small replacement tool drawer to replace the big one that pulled out
where you sat. VERY VERY SOLID. Square legs made bolting to the
floor easy. Best part was the desk was free. Nobody wants these
monsters. It took four of us to load on the jeep. Andy (15921) |
| I have found that
a Doctor's examining table makes an excellent bench for a lathe.
They are very heavy, have drawers and doors, and are very cheap. I
gave a dollar for it at a public auction. I kept the stirrups, but
haven't figured out a use for them yet. Richard
(15922) |
| 8 legs on my
table |
| JP Nope. Not a tin
octopus, just a stable fabricated lathe bench. Although it is true
that three legs are stable on any surface our lathe beds are not
properly shaped or proportioned for a three legged support. For
example, I have, in my laboratory at work, an Ealing-Beck Research
Optical Bench which is vaguely lathe bed like and IS proportioned
for three legged support. It is a massive, complexly cored, piece of
cast iron about 9 ft long and 10" wide with a working section at the
top about 9" wide by 9" high carrying three sets of guide ways for
optical carriers, one on top and one on each side. These guide-ways
are straight and mutually parallel to better than 1 micron over the
whole length. In side view the working section can be seen to be
supported on a huge triangle nearly 3 ft deep, but still 10" wide
supported at the 1/3 rd length points by a single foot at one end
and a pair of massive, triangulated, cast iron box outriggers of
about 3" section and 2 ft extension. These things took about 5 years
to make, as all the stresses had to be worked out of the casting
between machining stages, and even then they can be twisted a couple
of microns by careless setting up. Getting back to lathe benches a
three legged support is quite practical using the construction
outlined below by JP but the support structure must be rigid beyond
reproach. In practice 4 supporting points are almost invariably
used. Really if this sort of support will do you might just as well
have separate A frame legs at each end bolted to the bed feet and
fixed to a nice solid concrete floor by rawl-bolts and shims.
Although a very old fashioned method of setting up it is very
effective but can be a bear to shim for straight turning. If you
want a cabinet type bench three legs cannot be made to work any
sense. The options are:- 1) Use a stable top and support it
carefully e.g. my preferred kitchen work-top solution or the heavy
duty desks and examining tables which have also been suggested. Main
advantage is that the underlying cabinet does not have to be
exceptionally true and rigid. 2) Build a deep, rigid box section
cabinet and support it by 4 legs at the corners. This is the
professional approach, the South Bend factory cabinet on my Heavy 10
is made along these lines. Hard work if you don't have the
facilities and easy to end up out of square. 3) Make a square box
tower support for each end with a light joining structure. Needs 8
legs but the two ends are separately supported and it is easy to
shim the lathe true from the connecting bench top. Obviously each
leg needs to be shimmed separately which is a pain, I use screw up
adjusters and set for equal nip on a metal shim between floor and
leg, easier to do than describe. Structurally its the same as the
"head stock pedestal tail stock legs" configuration used by South
Bend on larger lathes for many years. Objectively speaking out
lightweight lathes are desperately short of torsional stiffness and
can be ruined beyond redemption by bad mounting. Getting the right
combination of stiffness and strength in the supports is not
completely intuitive. Professional involvement in optical
interferometry and holography has given me the chance to see what
can go wrong but I wont pretend that I understand the stresses
involved. Clive (15940) |
| The lathe is meant
to bolt down at the ends so if the cabinet legs are close to the
ends of the lathe and are rigid then you have the stability you
need. The bench doesn't necessarily need to be leveled accurately as
long you shim the lathe level on top of the bench. More than 3 or 4
legs won't add stability where it is needed. . Every design is a
trade off somewhere. I like to build things out of steel but there
are some excellent wood designs. I suppose the owner has to decide
what all of his/her requirements are before selecting the method and
material for construction. The mention of 8 legs really stood out.
Then again you could build a servo controlled hexapod and have it
self leveling as well as adjusting the lathe height and position. JP
(15943) |
| With lathe benches
and lightweight lathes the problem is always to avoid stressing the
lathe bed. When the lathe is made the bed is true to within
tolerances, we just have to keep it that way. Really the supports,
however arranged need to be sitting stable on the floor and the
lathe bed to be floating above it. The leveling shims are there to
stop the fixing bolts distorting the lathe bed. The bolts themselves
are there to stop the lathe falling off! The biggest problem with a
constructed cabinet, especially one sitting on an uneven floor, is
to ensure that it really does sit solidly down and that bolting the
(straight) lathe bed onto it does not attempt to pull out the little
bit of twist required to accommodate the floor. Of course if you
build a lathe cabinet you are going to put things in it. Probably
heavy things. So if all is not just so you can easily twist the
cabinet a bit, distorting your solidly bolted down lathe, as the
cabinet settles to accommodate the weight. Been there, done it, was
very surprised until I figured out the weight of all the lathe
accessory stuff I'd shoved in! The only point about 8 legs is that
you are building two strong, properly seated columns, one for each
end of the lathe so it is much easier to ensure that the lathe bed
really is sitting freely in space. (Two brick pillars with 1" steel
plate tops worked fine for my mate Eric.) 4 legs in a cabinet are
fine IF you can ensure a solid stable box girder structure, think
biplane wing. When using wood do remember that carpenters joints are
pretty poor in tension (which is why shipwrights build boats, not
carpenters). Wooden furniture is supposed to distort slightly so
that it sits properly on the floor. As JP says a good 4 legged
structure will give ample stability but for a simple cabinet the
legs do need to be pretty much under the lathe bed supports. No one
builds a lathe cabinet that way. Usual practice is to make it a bit
longer than the complete lathe so the planes of the legs are (for
ours) usually something over a foot beyond the supports and you do
have to start thinking structurally. It is easy to forget just how
much weight you are dealing with when all is installed. Usually the
weight just serves to pin everything down properly but sometimes....
It is obvious that the cabinet has to be made to support the lathe
rather than the lathe re-enforce the cabinet but if you have a
nearly solid cabinet it is dreadfully easy for the lathe to try to
pull things up true on the final bolting down leaving you with a
stressed and unevenly seated support. Running one leg of a 4 leg
cabinet about 80% light once gave me a host of "why does it only
nearly do the job properly" type troubles only sorted in retrospect
after I moved the beast and re-shimmed the legs to the floor. Tip:-
if its going into a corner of the workshop make the "un-reachable"
corner leg a smidgin too long and shim up the the ones you can reach
to match. Anyway despite all that its not really that difficult to
build a good lathe support. You just have to be aware of what can go
wrong and put the strength in the right places for the particular
design you are using. Clive PS Hexapods are a complete pain for
anything not roughly cubical.
(15948) |
| I'll
toss in my table info. it's for my SB 11" with a 60" bed.
I built my
table with a top of 5/8" steel plate. the top is approx 25"x68". for
the legs I used 3 1/4" steel tubing with a wall thickness a bit over
1/8" (it was what was available at the scrap yard that day). I then
reinforced under the table and between the legs with 1 3/4" x 1 3/4"
angle iron 1/4" thick. the legs are under the feet of the lathe, not
the end of the table. i also made up leveling feet from 3/4" bolts
with 2" feet welded to their bottoms. it took quite a while to weld
the whole thing up, and it was heavier than expected (i was
originally thinking 300 lbs, but it is definitely over 400). one
thing that surprised me was how easy it is to bend 5/8" plate.
When I just had the legs welded on I could easily cause a 1/4" deflection
just by pushing on one of the legs. once I had everything welded in
place, I can't notice any deflection (of course, I haven't hooked a
dial indicator up to anything, so I'm sure there is some movement).
I would think even 1" plate could move unless sufficiently
reinforced. I do have a question though. When leveling the lathe, I
first leveled the table. I then took measurements of the lathe bed
to see if there was any twist. it seemed pretty darn straight to me.
the tail end of the lathe was slightly lower than the headstock, so
I shimmed it up slightly. I'm guessing this was due to the lathe
feet being of slightly different heights. When reading what is in
the archives and in the files section, people mention shimming the
bed to remove twist. Yet in this thread there is mention that the
lathe should be shimmed to it's neutral state and the shims are
there just to take up space between the lathe feet and the table.
also that the bolts really just keep the lathe on the table, they
don't tighten the lathe feet down to remove twist in the bed. as i
stated, my bed didn't show any twist, but what if it did? would i
shim the feet to keep stress off the lathe and leave the twist in
the bed, or shim to remove twist and bolt the lathe feet down so the
lathe and table would both be stressed? andy b.
(15950) |
| SB 9" Bench
Ideas |
| I'm trying to figure
out a design for a bench. I thought about angle iron, and square
tubing. Various thicknesses and diameters. I realized there's a lot
more involved than meets the eye to building a work bench. Also
looking up the price for steel, I realized simpler is better for the
wallet, but I don't want to forgo rigidness. In the photo section, I
saw one work bench that looks to use 2" square tubing for the legs,
and much smaller square tubing for the supports on top. I have a Mig
welder, so welding it up is no problem. So would I get buy using
tubing with a thickness of .065? or would 1/4" really be what I
should use? Angle or Square?
(16587) |
| Unless you have
some specific limitations, the best bench economically and otherwise
is a "Steelcase" office desk bought at a surplus auction for 5 or 10
bucks. These things work great and have drawers etc etc. (16588) |
| With square tubing
you can get by with thinner material for the same rigidity. MIG
welders don't penetrate as far as stick welders so that would
probably be the best route here as well. Use around .12" tubing for
the legs and support members, you can double it up if you want more
rigidity. The diagonal bracing would be easier to fabricate with
angle iron but at that point you won't need .25 thickness here. The
bench should be able to bolt to the floor and be leveled. The
thicker the better within your budget constraints. Using Dr Harms
suggestion of the steelcase desk is a good one to consider. JP (16589) |
|
Mounting/leveling a 16" sbl |
| I purchased a 16"
sbl a couple of months ago and am finally getting ready to move it
into my shop. Should
I use leveling pads/feet or something else. (19250) |
| When we bought our
16" SBL a few months ago it had (for leveling the lathe) large bolts
with flat washers and nuts in the mounting holes of the UMD cabinet
and the legs at the tailstock end. Under these bolts were 3"x3"
metal pads. The previous owner was using the machine on the concrete
floor of his garage. It was not bolted down to the floor as
recommended in the South Bend book, How To Run A Lathe. Is it
possible that the weight of this size lathe is enough to keep it
from moving and changing it's leveling? (19256) |
| KBC sell some rubber machine feet that I mounted
under my SB 16/8' lathe 2.5 years ago. Easy to level over a year ago
and stays darned close. I check it about twice a year (unheated
garage; once cold after winter has set in, and once warm in late
spring) with a Starrett machinist's level. I can't distinguish the
very minor adjustments that I make from hot/cold state vs feet
settling vs. floor settling. It's never more than one quarter to one
half graduation out from level. Machine stays within tolerances I
need (~ 0.001"). I've since mounted the feet under all of my
machines, including drill press. Isolates a lot of noise from the
rest of the house. If you are working to very small tolerances you
may want to investigate further, but then there will be additional
concerns (beyond my experience) such as consistent climate control,
exactly what is the 'floor' to which the lathe would be bolted, etc.
etc. etc. Jim
(19302) |
| Lathe on
Casters |
| I'm thinking of mounting the lathe table on
casters (Heavy cast centers). What are the problems / pitfalls with
this? South Bend 9"A I also have a bench mill that I would like to
roll around as space is a premium in my shop and outside in the Hot
Texas Sun is better that HOT IN THE SHOP. No I'm not trying to be
an ass I just have always wondered about this and never asked. JJ
(19337) |
| The main
problem I see with this would be keeping the lathe level and
straight. It don't take much twist in the bed to make it cut in a
taper. It took me 2 weeks just to get mine dialed in being bolted to
the floor so I don't see how it could be done rolling around on
different level of ground from one place to the other. Gary
(19339) |
| I don't
know about the other folks in this group but I would run from that
Idea. I think machinery to run accurate and smooth needs to be real
level and real solid and I don't think even heavy crane casters could
do this effective. Like I said just my opinion but I have seen
lathes walk just being on solid cement floors with good cabinets and
not having wheels. Grumpy
(19342) |
| You can
do this but there are a few things to keep in mind. When you
reposition your lathe it must be straight not twisted. It does not
have to be level as long as it is not twisted. If it had to be level
the lathes could not be used on board a ship and almost all large
ships (navy and commercial) have on board machine shops with lathes.
On the other hand Leveling is the only practical way for the home
shop machinist to easily get the lathe straight. The other
alternative would be to mount your lathe legs or bench to a thick
steel plate around 2" thick (ships usually use 6" thick mounting
plates but that is a more demanding environment). Basically, if you
want to move your lathe around simply block it up off of the casters
or remove the casters, level it and give it sometime (over night) to
settle and recheck the level. Ted (19355) |
| I lived in
Houston for about a year It do really get hot. You said space is a
problem , thus one must be practical . as Cat said castors should
not cause a problem unless You need to produce work to close
tolerance. Most lathe work I do involves short lengths thus slight
taper is not a problem Every thing in my shop , except lathe ,
service station air compressor , and drill press , is on casters -3
HP delta unisaw , delta wood/metal bandsaw ,2- 12 Disc sanders , gas
and electric welders , jig saw . The shop is only 14 x 18 ft .
Without castors Working would be very difficult. It s not just the
machines , all wall space is lined with shelves and tool boxes , I
live in south Fla, as in Texas ,no basement and it get HOT Tempi
outside is 88 . So do what is best for you.
(19369) |
| Lathe Bench
|
| I'm rebuilding
my shop (New Building) and want to build new benches for my two
South Bend Lathes. Both are 9 Inch. One is 36" and the other is 48".
Does anyone have a picture or know of a web site with lathe benches
to build. I'm looking for something with a couple of drawers, and
sturdy enough to last a lifetime. I have a friend that is going to
brake a couple of Chip Trays for me to bolt on the bench top when I
mount the lathes. Benny
(19768) |
| As has been
discussed in the past, you can't beat a Government issue steel desk
for a lathe bench. Usually they are cheap to get because they are so
ugly nobody wants them. (19769) |
| Granite slab
for a lathe bench? |
| As a new owner of a
SB 9" A I have been thinking of building a better bench. The one I
got with the lathe has a couple of cast iron legs and a plywood top
(2 layers). I was thinking of using a section of granite countertop
for the top of the table - supported on a wood frame. Has anyone
done this? Seems like this solution would be more stable than wood
and once aligned should be more likely to stay that way. There is a
local discount place that frequently sells straight sections of
granite countertop cheap. Paul (20371) |
| Paul, Granite must
be supported correctly or it won't support it's own weight. It has
natural fissures in the stone. I don't think it would make a good
lathe bench. Better to have a fab shop set you up with a piece of
1/4" steel and bend the long edges down at a 90 degree angle. This
way you can bolt, weld, or screw the legs to it. Look on Ebay as
many lathe benches are sold there. Paul (20373) |
| Paul Synthetic or
re-constituted granite is often used for reference and support
surfaces on metrology equipment, optical tables, surface plates and
some of the slides on inspection machines. I once purchased a Rank
Talysurf surface quality measurement device for the firm whose
working surfaces were mostly granite of this type. Granite bases are
incredibly stable and very dead so that vibration is not a problem
during optical experiments, holography and similar stuff. You do
have to be careful supporting it and the material needs to be rather
thicker than you might expect from the loads applied. I think the
Talysurf base was about 3"-4" thick (and very heavy to boot) with a
big warning against overloading in the manual. I watched it being
assembled and the support strategy was similar to that used with
glass surface plates with several pads carefully distributed to take
the load. The pads were adjustable to ensure that all were involved
in supporting the granite. I'm pretty sure that the thick stuff will
crack under its own weight if you are not careful. I remember being
told why it had to be so thick but I can no longer remember what I
was told. In my experience the thick, top quality "chipboard
Formica"
(or whatever the modern materials are) kitchen w |
