| Making a 9" two-step pulley
(May 4, 2001) |
Counter balance spring 10 heavy
(Feb 24, 2003) |
| Setscrews on pulleys?
(Dec 18, 2001) |
Tension Lever question
(May 15, 2003) |
|
Missing tooth on cone pulley (Jan 6, 2002) |
Proper 10k Motor Pulley
Dimension (Jul 23, 2003) |
| Cone
pulley "stiff" (Mar 10, 2002) |
Need two-step motor
pulley for 10L (Aug 27, 2003) |
| OEM motor pulley size?
(Jun 4, 2002) |
Diameter of Electric Motor
Pulley (Jan 29, 2004) |
| Countershaft Question
(Aug 19, 2002) |
Correct motor pulley size for
hvy 10 (Feb 14, 2004) |
| Two
speed pulley (Oct 7, 2002) |
Need source for flat pulleys
(Apr 21, 2004) |
| Worn out countershaft and Babbit
(Nov 22, 2002) |
Balancing the counter shaft
(Oct 12, 2004) |
| Countershaft pulley (Dec
29, 2002) |
Countershaft pulleys
(Oct 24, 2004) |
| Flat belt pulleys (Jan
4, 2003) |
Measuring pulley diameter
(Nov 4, 2004) |
| 9 Inch Motor Pulley Diameters
(Jan 27, 2003) |
10L Stepped pulley? (Jan
31, 2005) |
| Need a v-belt motor
drive pulley for SB 9 (Feb 9, 2003) |
Counter shaft leak? (Mar
12, 2005) |
| Lower cone pulley countershaft
brg. squeal (Feb 18, 2003) |
|
| |
| Making a 9" two-step pulley |
| Bubba K. was
curious about my earlier comment about making a 9" two-step pulley
on/for my 9" SB. No big mystery here. When I got my 9" SB it had a
funky drive setup. There was a second jack-shaft and set of cone
pulleys replacing the non-existent giant cast iron two-step pulley
on the motor-side of the standard counter shaft. I guess part of the
reason was that the original headstock did not have a back-gear and
the owner wanted some slower speeds. I installed a standard
headstock with back-gear and since I already had a GE 3/4 HP 1150
RPM motor, I thought I'd just make a set of pulleys for the motor
and counter shaft to give me the standard speed range for the lathe.
Since the motor is 1150 RPM rather than 1725 RPM I can use a smaller
driven pulley -- something I can make myself. So I am. This will
bring my lathe back to almost stock configuration for just the cost
of a couple of pieces of scrap aluminum. It's taking a little
imagination to figure out how to machine something that's over 9" in
diameter on a 9" SB, so progress is kind of slow. I'm currently
machining the v-grooves for the belt. I'll post some pictures when I
get it finished. Paul R. (593) |
| Setscrews on pulleys? |
| I'm in the process
of installing the variable frequency drive and 1HP 3-phase motor
(from Dealer's Electric) on my 9" and had to make a pulley to fit
the new motor's 7/8" keyed shaft. Pulley was easy to make, and I
broached it in the lathe. The question that comes to mind is: how
best should the setscrews be arranged? In the past, I've just placed
two at 90 degrees, one pressing on the key, the other just seating
into the shaft. Is this proper? Should I just use one pressing on
the key? I don't want to damage the shaft. Paul R.
(2471) |
| My experience with motor pulleys involves mostly
larger machinery, but a setscrew on the opposite side serves only to
booger up the shaft. One practice that does work is stacking the
setscrews, i.e. one screw holding the keystock and another holding the
first one. The wrinkle with this is that you remember that there are
two screws in that hole at a later date, for obvious reasons. RC
(2472) |
| Filing a small flat
on the shaft is a common practice for driven shafts. If the set
screw gouges the flat part a little bit, it won't affect the ability
to slide the pulley off. Another reason why a flat can be preferable
to a keyway is that there is less of a problem of mechanical
fatigue. The bottom corner of the keyway can be a stress
concentration point. For the size and power of your motor, I think
you should be fine however you set it up. (2475) |
| Paul; I've seen some pulleys trashed
by mashed keys when it's time to remove the pulley. I'd grind a
small flat on the motor shaft for the setscrew to press against. Two
setscrews at 90 degrees do a good job, but may not be required in
this application. Alternatively, you can drill a dimple in the shaft
for the setscrew point. This is easier if you have not tapped the
setscrew hole yet, you just drill the pulley, put it in place, and
run the drill bit down the unthreaded hole in the pulley. Remove the
pulley, tap the setscrew, and install. The upside is that this makes
the setup somewhat self aligning. The downside of this approach is
that you have to be dead on the first time, while a flat gives you
room to adjust a bit and can always be made longer as needed. Stan
(2478) |
| Paul, This is how I
was taught years ago (two setscrews 90 deg apart) but I have seen
just one setscrew used over the key. I think the idea of two is a
safety factor. As far as the shaft, if you plan on removing the
pulley occasionally then mill a flat on the shaft for the setscrew
to set against. If you have no plans to remove the pulley then seat
on the shaft. Ed (2490) |
| Missing tooth
on cone pulley |
| Mine is the small
gear on the cone pulley, but I think it wouldn't matter which.
Sounds like it works well. So, what are the potential consequences
of using it with the one tooth missing? Or maybe a better question
is what sorts of operations/use is likely to run into problems with
one tool missing? Rick (2579) |
| Running it with one
tooth missing is risking further damage. It's not worth the risk.
Orrin (2583) |
| Cone pulley
"stiff" |
| I haven't used the
back gears for anything since getting my SB 9" a couple months ago.
When I got it, the cone pulley spun on the spindle pretty freely.
When I reassembled after cleaning it, I used oil in the cone pulley
and back gear shaft as that's how they were when I got it.
Subsequently I read here SB now recommends Teflon grease, mostly I
take it so the lube doesn't get slung out as easily. Wanting to take
good and proper care of the lathe, I did this for both. I went to
cut some threads tried using the back gears for the first time. The
cone pulley was really stiff on the spindle. It would rotate but it
took nearly all my strength to move it. With some use, the cone
pulley has loosened and rotates now without much effort, but does
not spin as when it had oil in it. The cone pulley heats up a bit in
use too. I haven't checked it again after its cooled (still cutting
those threads) and had a chance to stiffen up again, if that is what
is going on. Is this normal? Rick K.
(3570) |
| I've
experienced no tightness with mine, even after installing a
different spindle (old one was badly scored). I started off by
cleaning everything and then coating with Teflon grease before
assembly, and then injecting what I could after assembly. Never any
problems. Turns very smoothly and easily. I wonder if there is some
foreign material stuck in there or if the spindle assembly was put
together incorrectly. You said it used to work fine. Scratching my
head on this one, Paul R. (3572) |
| What I recall is
that it spun easily when it had oil in it. I don't recall noticing
how it spun with the Teflon grease. I just checked it after leaving
it for a couple hours. Turning okay, without much effort, but not
spinning any more after I stop moving it. I'm planning on doing the
Vee belt cone/countershaft pulley mod for it so will be tearing it
down again at some point, but wasn't planning on that real soon. I
may tear it down just to check things out before much damage is
done. Rick. (3573) |
| Rick: I ran my SB
9" for app. 15 minutes in the highest backgear speed and noticed
only that the head stock cone pulley was maybe slightly warm. With
the back gears disengaged and the belt not touching the cone pulley,
the cone pulley turns easily but does not spin more than a turn or
two (spindle stationary). Of course with the backgear engaged, it
turns with a good bit of resistance when the spindle is rotated by
hand using the 5" chuck. My head stock has been lubricated with SB
Teflon grease supplied by SB since the lathe was new. Note, the
Teflon grease instructions are in the packet I mailed you. The only
thought I have is that maybe your belt tension is too much? Did you
replace the cone pulley? I recall the one that came with the lathe
had a tooth missing. I would keep an eye on the temperature and
binding with use. Rich (3578) |
| Rich, Yes, what you sent me is part of what I was going
on about the Teflon grease. This is the original cone pulley, not
replaced it yet. Not having had much need for the backgear speeds,
it hadn't become a priority. With plans to make Vee belt cone
pulleys, I really didn't want to put out the cash for a new flat
belt cone pulley that won't get much use. I just checked mine again,
after a couple hours of rest, the cone pulley spins about a than a
half a turn after release. It seems ok. Rick (3582) |
| Sounds like maybe too much grease in there. Some grease is
stiff when cold (stiff bearings) then expands as it warms putting
undue pressure on things. We had pumps that served for years when
our oiler had a manual grease gun, when we gave him a pneumatic
grease gun we started burning out bearings as the overfilled bearing
housings heated the grease, grease expands, creating more heating
and so on. John (3601) |
| OEM motor
pulley size? |
| I have a 9" south
bend lathe (model # B9W catalog # 477Y Length 3) with a horizontal
flat-belt drive. Someone put a craftsman motor on it with a v-belt
pulley. They then used a v-belt to drive the large (10"?) flat
pulley. My question is: what diameter is the original motor pulley?
OR: What are the original spindle speeds available? (I'll work my
way back). Tom
(4465) |
| Tom; From SB web
site, 9 inch workshop specs: Standard spindle speeds (subject to
five percent variation) RPM of spindle, back gears engaged 41 72 127
RPM of spindle, direct belt driven 212 370 658 High Spindle Speeds
in addition to Standard spindle speeds Regular equipment on 12-speed
lathes, optional on other models at extra cost RPM of spindle, back
gears engaged 79 138 246 RPM of spindle, direct belt driven 408 716
1270 V-Belt Driven Lathe Spindle Speeds RPM of spindle, back gears
engaged 46 63 85 117 RPM of spindle, direct belt driven 239 326 442
609 For O series lathes (Bronze Box Bearings, 2/28/1928 through
3/31/1930): For a 9 inch Workshop, the spindle speeds are 39 to 630
RPM, with a jackshaft speed of 288 RPM. The Junior, Quick, and
Standard speeds are 39 to 596 RPM, with a jackshaft speed of 255
RPM. I think every 9 I've ever seen is set up with a V belt pulley
on the motor, with the belt riding on the flat pulley as you
describe. Stan (4478) |
| If I recall
correctly, 'how to run a lathe' recommends against using the back
gears with the higher jackshaft speed - though I've certainly done
it at times. I would try at least to stay out of backgears with both
belts at their highest setting (ie, the 246 rpm listed above) which
is not too much of a problem as the lowest non-backgeared speed is
212 rpm (though you have to take a minute to swap the jackshaft back
to the slow setting). Christopher (4479) |
| Tom, If I
understand you correctly, you are asking about the belt that comes
from the motor to the large diameter pulley on the jack shaft. This
is supposed to be a vee belt. The belt the runs from the stepped
pulley on the jack shaft to the stepped pulley on the spindle could
be either a flat belt (most common) or a vee belt depending on the
type of stepped pulley system you have. I have included a couple of
diagrams that may help. Webb (4481) |
| To add to this list, here is what I did with my SB 10L "Heavy 10": I
just replaced my 3/4 HP 220V 3ph motor with a 1 HP 90VDC motor and a
3 HP KBPC-225 DC SCR variable output speed 220VAC 1ph input control
from http://www.kbelectronics.com (CAN$300 or ~US$200). Note this is
a 180VDC control, but it can be internally turned down via an
adjustment potentiometer to 100VDC max. Thus the 0-100% knob
represents 0-100VDC. The motor is quite happy down to about 15 Volts
(about 4 rev/sec), below which it seems to strain and doesn't turn
at a constant rpm. The original lower V-belt from Southbend was
shot, so I got a new B size-40" vbelt. In retrospect, a 42 inch belt
would have fit better. The side angle of the vbelt is different, so
I also replaced the existing (I presume standard, 2" dia pulley)
with a 2.5" dia pulley, and am getting the following speeds: As the
motor goes to 2750 rpm at 100VDC, the 3 flatbelt ratios are approx
(from the motor to the chuck): - 5:1 550 rpm (*5 back gear 110 rpm)
- 3:1 917 rpm (*5 back gear 183 rpm) - 2:1 1375 rpm (*5 back gear
275 rpm) and of course is variable speed (fwd reverse) up to those
maximum speeds. Doug (4492) |
| I have been tempted to try a DC motor
like Doug describes, as I have a scrap yard source for some good
ones. What I'd really like is to replace the spindle step pulley
with a cog belt pulley and drive it directly with a variable DC
motor but I think I'll get it running as-is first. Tom (4529) |
| Tom, I have to
confess that I did once run the saddle into the headstock. I am sure
that nobody else on the list has ever done anything as stupid as
that. I was very happy it was on my leather belt drive lathe instead
of the V-belt drive one. If I'd had a cog belt on it, I probably
would have stripped the teeth off the gears in the gearbox. As it
was, the leather belt slipped and there was no damage to anything,
unless you count my pride. Glen (4535) |
| Wow, for a 1 HP DC
motor control, $200 US sounds way out of line unless the 3 HP
control is that pricy. A year or so ago I purchased from a local KB
electronics dealer a KBIC-240 for $ 85 US that will work at 110 V up
to 1 HP and at 220 V 2HP. At the same time for $ 180 US bought a 1
HP VFD ( 220 single phase in, 220 3 phase variable out that works
great on my Bridgeport. Check out there online cat at
www.kbelectronics.com A great company to work with. Walt (4547) |
| Countershaft
Question |
| I have seen
on ebay a countershaft assembly (auction #1759850941) that has 2
steps for the v-belt drive instead of the normal single like on my
9" model A. What if any is the advantage of this and did they make a
plate that listed the different speeds when using this drive.
Randy (5852) |
| This type countershaft doubles the spindle speeds
available and there fore adds to the flexibility and usefulness of
the machine. Rich (5853) |
| Randy, That makes
it a 12 speed machine as opposed to 6. That is the same arrangement
that is on my 9A HMD. Fred (5854) |
| Will a plain
bearing SB run at double the speed with out damage? Randy (5855) |
| Fred: My A is a six
speed but I have a v-belt model C and I have been thinking about
changing the pulleys to the A which would give me 8 speeds then if I
changed to the 2 step countershaft I would have 16. Randy (5856) |
| Randy, I could not
tell you but I am sure you will get an answer from someone in the
group. Fred (5857) |
| Randy, You have
already extended beyond my experience and knowledge about the SB's.
Needless to say I am sure you will get an answer.
Fred (5858) |
| Randy, My 9" x 3.5'
A is set up this way, 4 step V belt on the spindle and 2 step V belt
on the countershaft. I have never used the higher speed side of the
motor pulley, but I am sure that it would work. You just need to
watch the spindle bearings for excess heating. Glen (5859) |
| When I asked a
different manufacturer about running an old machine at a higher
speed they said that I could probably do it using modern lubricants
but that I should replace the spindle bearings. They said that the
machine had gotten used to a given high speed and to change it I
needed to let the machine break in on new bearings. They also said I
needed to watch for heat buildup at first and to run the machine
slower if the heat continued. Yasmiin (5860) |
| Let's not confuse
double the spindle speed with twice the number of speeds. one is a
greater number of ratios and the other is a doubling of the RPM,
there are a lot of differences there. What we need to know is what
is the highest and lowest ratio available on the 6 speed, 12 speed,
and others. That tells the tale of whether the actual spindle speed
is really much higher or if there are just more selections( might be
some slower speeds with more torque or control also). Does anybody
have or know where there are actual RPM charts showing the spindle
speeds for these types? The question of just what lube will the
plain bearing need at higher speed is much more complex and involves
things like bearing concentricity and thermal performance, oil
properties, some weird things like oil whirl ( look that one up for
an eye-opener), and a number of others that are difficult to measure
or calculate in the hobbyist world without spending a bundle. has
anybody converted a plain bearing spindle to a ball or needle
bearing type bearing that would be a close fit, or at least for the
headstock casting, then grind the spindle to fit the inner side of
the needles. This would give an unhardened inner race but still
might be much better than a sleeve bearing for wear at higher
speeds. (5861) |
| From the SB website
(still functioning at
http://www.southbendlathe.com/workshop/9wspecs.htm )
the spindle speeds are listed as: 41-72-127-212-370-658 for the
standard 9" with a 3-step countershaft pulley and back gears. With
the optional two step motor pulley the speeds are as above plus:
79-138-246-408-716-1270 which is nearly, but not quite, a doubling.
I'll leave the question as to the rpm capacity of cast iron bearings
to the more knowledgeable among us. Tom (5862) |
| According to "HOW
TO RUN A LATHE" the 9" lathes had the following speeds: 9" Bench
6-Speed 630, 370, 220, 120(BG), 75(BG), 45(BG) 9" Bench 12-Speed
(double pulley countershaft) 1200, 720, 428, 232*(BG), 138*(BG),
80*(BG) 645, 377,225, 125(BG), 75(BG), 45(BG) 9" V-Belt 8-Speed 600,
450, 340, 250, 115(BG), 85(BG), 65(BG), 50(BG) 9" V-Belt16-Speed
(double pulley countershaft) 1100, 830,620,465, 210*(BG), 155*(BG),
120*(BG), 90*(BG) 600, 450, 340, 250, 115(BG), 85(BG), 65(BG),
50(BG) (BG) = back gear *not recommended for use And they say CI
bearing 9" lathes should not be run above 1200 RPM. Paul R.
(5863) |
| Rather that an oil
I replace the oil cups with grease cups and use a modern clear
synthetic grease (Super Lube). I get the grease cups with the same
thread as the old oil cups from an automobile restoration place.
Vintage Auto. Apparently these cups were common place on old cars
and they have a selection of NOS units of various sizes. They aren't
cheap (20 - $ 40 ea.) but they are worth it and they look nice to
boot. The Super Lube has a higher wetability than does oil and
produces better lubrication. I don't want to turn this into a study
in the esoteric lubrication. Try it, you will like the results and
the grease doesn't get you all black. Replacing plain bearings with
roller/ needle / other doesn't buy you any thing and does something
that is irreversible to your head stock. The first rule of
restoration is, don't do any thing you can't undo later. A fried
plain bearing is easily replaceable. A cross bored shaft isn't plus
the roller bearings won't buy you a higher RPM at the speeds we are
talking about. Don't turn you 9" above 2,000 RPM and you should have
no problems. Yasmiin (5864) |
| Yasmiin: On my 9"
horizontal drive South Bend lathes if you fry a bearing you ruin the
headstock because the spindle runs right on the cast iron. It has no
replaceable bearings unless my parts book is wrong. Randy (5865) |
| Randy: Yes the
plain bearing SB will run fine with this countershaft pulley
arrangement. It was supplied by SB as original equipment, depending
on what model you ordered. My 1966 Model "c" is so supplied (cast
iron bearings). Actually the top speed is not doubled, but limited
to app. 1200 rpm. and there are more speed steps. at slower speeds,
finer increments. Double speed would be 2400 RPM and is not
recommended for plain bearing SB lathes. (1966 models) . SB 9's as
supplied had top speeds of app. 1200 RPM. A word of caution! The
above is based on SB 9's from 1966 SB catalog. It is my guess that
older SB's would also be capable of the 1200 RPM max but I do not
have information to support this conclusion. Rich (5866) |
| Your parts book is correct. Rich (5867) |
| That's really
interesting. I haven't taken apart many Southbends but I have do so
on many many 9" x 20" instrument makers lathes (no power feeds) made
between 1890 and 1960. I have never seen one yet that didn't have
replaceable bearings. Perhaps someone that has seen a lot of them
can tell us if there were headstocks without replaceable bearings.
That's what I love about these lists, you learn something new every
day. I guess you have come up with a case where if the bearing were
ever to wear I would add a plain bearing even if it isn't
adjustable. Then again, I have many plain bearing lathes and I
seldom find one with a bearing that is worn beyond repair. I am
amazed by the durability of a plain bearing and since any old timer
will tell you that a plain bearing is more accurate I guess they
can't be beat. Yasmiin (5868) |
| How do you adjust
the bearing? Don't they ever wear? I guess I wouldn't play mad
scientist with one of those head stocks. No room to make a mistake.
Yasmiin(5869) |
| A superfinished
spindle in a CI plain bearing was standard for the bulk of the
production of the 9" AFAIK. There was an article in HSM where a worn
head stock was bored out, and the spindle sleeved to renew the
non-bearing bearing. As far as adjusting, there are stacks of shims
on the one clamp-side of the head stock. Adjusting the shim
thickness gives you just the right "pinch" or clearance for the
spindle. Paul R. (5870) |
| Yasmiin; One side
of each cast iron bearing (a cast part of the headstock) is split or
cut similarly to normal capped bearings; Shims are applied in the
split and a socket head cap screw is used to adjust the clearance as
required. This system is dependent on the cast iron bearing cap,
which is still part of the headstock, being flexible to effect a
limited adjustment with out cracking. According to a friend, a old
very knowledgeable machinist all his life, cast iron bearings were
used with good results and when lubricated properly would last for
ever. He did say that if you had trouble however you had real
trouble. He expressed high regard for such bearings in machine tools
generally. Rich (5871) |
| Cast iron seems to
be the material of choice. Of all the old lathes I have only one or
two have bronze bearings. These old lathes have some very fancy ways
of adjusting the bearings. Various forms or split tapered bearings
are used. However, I haven't found one yet that don't have removable
bearings. I will have to keep a look out for one that doesn't. If
South Bend did it then I am sure that some maker of bench lathes
must have done it also. Yasmiin
(5874) |
| There is actually a
difference between the lathes shipped with the 12 speed feature and
those shipped with the 6 speed setup. That difference is in the
finish of the spindle. To accommodate the higher speed the surface of
the spindle is ground to a finer (smoother) finish. The model number
indicates what it was shipped with, and through that you can
determine how fast it was intended to run. All that assumes use of
the standard lubrication. Modern lubricants can really work magic if
you have knowledge of them (which I don't). The worst thing you can
do is use the wrong lubricant. Apparently engine oil is particularly
harmful to these bearings. Also the clearance is critical. This type
of bearing has 3 components, the sleeve the journal, and the
lubricant. If the clearance is not adequate, there is no room for the
lubricant. At that point you are running with parts missing. Not many
machines can survive that. RC (5880) |
| RC: Which part of
the model number tells you which shaft you have? Randy
(5881) |
| I don't have the
info here with me today, Il have to look in the book that I have
stored all that sort of thing in (its at home). It came off the SBL
website, which appears to be down. Maybe someone else has the pages
saved on their hard drive, and can ship them to you sooner. If you
have a copy of the shipping card of the machine, it is indicated
directly on there. My machine is a 12 speed, but has an odd drive
unit, so I had to go through the process of determining whether it
was capable of the higher speed. That's how I found out about all
this, in the first place. RC (5882) |
| Found it, its the
first digit. If the machine is a 12 speed the model will be 644,if
its a 6 speed it will be 444. RC (5884) |
| Two speed
pulley |
| Having failed to
win bid on two speed countershaft pulley, the only one I have seen
in a year. can someone come up with the diameters of both the driver
and the driven pulleys for the 9in sb. want to take advantage of
higher speeds with carbide tools. rick (6593) |
| I took the
following measurements of my Model A. Driven pulley (Measured at the
edge) small pulley 9 1/8" diameter (approximately) large pulley 10 "
diameter, face 7/8" wide Driver small pulley ID 1.1" OD 2.1" Large
pulley ID 2.38" OD3.41" width 0.62" (probably 5/8")
Surprisingly the
cone pulley is larger than that on the spindle, pulleys are 3", 4"
and 4.95" diameter at top of crown. I assume that some of these are
actually meant to be round numbers. I had trouble measuring the
small driven pulley because the shaft is in the way. There is also a
small crown on the two driven pulleys. From my measurements you can
calculate more "exact" ones. Probably should do the calculation
anyway just to check the ratios. You will have to look up the depth
of the v belt so you can calculate the running diameter of the
driver pulleys. John (6609) |
| Worn out
countershaft and Babbit |
| My countershaft
(motor mount type) on my sb9 is worn out. 10-20 thou egg
shaped. What have you all done in similar situation. Bore it on
the lathe...hmm sounds exciting? Throw it aside and create new
countershaft situation from zero? (tending toward that approach
right now.) (I have large v belts on my lathe, not flats belting). (7470) |
| I
am assuming you have a horizontal drive type lathe. You must have an
earlier unit because later ones use cindered bronze sleeve bearings
which can be replaced. You could bore out the casting and press in
bronze bearings to bring the unit back but it might be just simpler
to get a later vintage motor mount/counter shaft assembly. I guess
one could use Moglice to bring back the bearings but I have no
experience with this product. If you decide to replace your motor
mount/counter shaft unit, I might have one. I'll have to check.
Webb
(7472) |
| My 1941 9" Model A
with a floor-mount pedestal has babbit bearings for the counter
shaft. Mine are quite worn and won't hold oil very well. I'm going
to try replacing the shaft, since its chewed up too, and installing
some oilite bushings after boring out the babbit. I've been doing a
background task designing a hand-held line-boring setup to perform
this since the pedestal is way too big to bolt to my mill table. The
other way I was thinking of doing it was (kind of like the half-nut
replacement) to use some JB-Weld to fix the bushing assemblies in
place after removing the bulk of the babbit. Paul R.
(7479) |
| I had the same
problem when I rebuilt my second 9" and managed a successful "unorthodox"
repair as follows:- Firstly I obtained a suitable bit of steel
shafting of the right size for the new countershaft (mild steel will
do but shafting material wears much better, pig to turn tho') and
some suitable bronze bushes. The bush bores were a bit smaller than
the shaft and the outside diameter was big enough to fit after the
oval countershaft hole had been opened up to a true circle. It also
had to be a bit bigger than one of my tubular hole saws and match
one of my large reamers. I was lucky to find a suitable sized
bushes, complete with helical oil grooves, in a local surplus
emporium but you might need to make some before you tear the
countershaft down. I turned up a couple of dural plugs sized to be a
tight fit in the oval bores, heavily knurled the outside and drilled
the centre to match the holesaw pilot drill. I pressed the plugs
into the holes and checked that the pilot drill holes were pretty
much lined up, true to better than a 1/16 as I recall. The knurling
took up the ovality so all fitted very well. Holding the
countershaft casting in a vice I used the tubular hole saw in a
variable speed pistol to drill out around the plug leaving nearly
round holes. Low speed plenty of lubricant and a steady hand. For
better guidance I replaced the pilot drill with a plain silver steel
(drill rod) shank. The holes were round to within a couple of thou
and true to within 20. Careful work with an adjustable reamer (I
used a king-pin reamer if that helps) got the holes round and in
line. I pushed the bushes in, reamed them true to size, added oil
holes and oil cups (boring out obliterated the felt wick groove).
It all worked pretty well although I had to fit plain felt washers
each side of the bearings as the helical oil grooves were a bit
enthusiastic and drew too much oil through. I suspect that hardwood
would do just as well for the plugs. If I ever do the job again I'll
suspend a well lubricated rod of hole saw pilot size in the right
place and fill the bearing spaces with metal loaded filler to make
the guide plugs. I'll also make the hole saw pilot rod long enough
to go through both plugs and have a second, larger, plug ready for
when I've done the first side. That way the hole saw will be
properly guided all the time so the circularized bores should start
out in nearly perfect alignment. Using a big pillar drill with the
countershaft casting on an angle plate would be better too. I've
built several inexpensive, compact, bench countershaft units that
worked pretty well using materials to hand. I've found that when
building from scratch its easy enough to use a two speed primary
drive and add a clutch. Not much extra work and very useful in
practice. If anyone wants details contact me direct and I'll be glad
to help. Clive (7495) |
| So it sounds like
the options are: Bore it and bush it Ream it and bush it Build it
back to size with some sort of goop How about a couple pillow-block
bearings bolted to it and ignore the original holes? This would make
it a bit more compact too... 5/8 bore babbit-lines pillow block
bearings are about $12 apiece from McMaster...5/8 bore pillow-block
ball bearings are about $30 each... myself, I'd be tempted to use
the lathe to turn a bunch of bushings and a shaft, all the next size
smaller...then knurl and pressfit the bushings into the countershaft
support and bush the pulleys smaller too. It would seem the reamer
would be the hardest part, price-wise... how about a couple [cheap]
auto crankshaft con-rod babbit inserts, either installed as is and
reamed or melted down for the babbit and poured-in-place? those
usually run with a pretty high oil flow though--might not be
applicable to a non-pressure feed system; anyone more qualified to
comment here? Actually, looking at what the countershaft assembly
for a horizontal-drive lathe really is conceptually, two
pillow-block bearings and a barn door hinge and a piece of plate
stock and you can pretty much forget worrying about rebuilding the
original...hmm... this may have merit for those of us where space is
at a premium: a two-stage v-belt setup to the countershaft would get
around the need for that big countershaft pulley... what any of this
has to do with the original topic, I have no clue. lurch (7498) |
| Might there be another option? Could the shaft be built back up to
original size and reground by an automotive/truck crankshaft
rebuilding facility? They may still do that on a local level in
areas where there are a lot of independent truckers. Larry (7499) |
| What about
re-pouring the babbit? I have done this several times on even older
lathes and it is quite easy. The babbit can be poured with the
bearings in place. Nick (7500) |
| If building a new
shaft is an easy thing, go for it. I had a pto shaft that was all
chew'd up, galled, burned, gouged, had the journal built up and
reground for about $80. Oh, to the guy who's going to bore out the
babbit and sleeve with oilite. Why not back to babbit? (7505) |
| Keith The answer to
that is lifespan and durability. We have a centerless grinder here
in the shop that came original with bronze bearing segments. The
operator let it run low on spindle oil and fried the spindle and
bearings. The machine repair guy took the bearing segments and the
shaft and had the shaft ground and the segments babbited and shaped
to match. After he got everything back and set the machine back up
with everything by the book we ran it foe a few hours no load to
allow the bearings to seat in. After a half hour the babbit began to
melt and flow like solder and the shaft to wobble and bounce around.
He took the machine apart and the shaft was scored again and the
babbit all smeared around. His statement it should have worked. My
experience no way in hell as I told him to begin with. Babbit can
not handle that much heat and load. I ended up getting a hunk of
aluminum bronze, cutting it in half to the length of the segments,
boring and facing it in my 9" A very carefully. A 30lb hunk of
bronze swinging unsupported in a 3 jaw is no fun. We then mounted
the bored and faced blanks on a special mandrel I made for the job
in a friends 12x36 to turn the od because they were to large for the
carriage on the SB to pass under. My friend then split each of them
into 3 segments. After fitting to the reground shaft and adjusting
in the machine it was run in for three days no load to seat them. It
has now been running for six years 6 days a week, 18 hours a day
with no problems. Babbit is fine on shell bearings in a thin coating
to assist break-in, but it can not deal with extended high load
conditions where heat is developed because it will melt away just
like solder would. JWE (7507) |
| I wasn't advising a
change of bearing material, just if the product came with babbit,
and I thought they were talking about the horizontal drive for a
9",,, you'd think if babbit was really that bad a product under
those conditions we wouldn't have very many of them left around. I
agree about the hi temp issue, but if something was made in the
50-60's (or earlier) and has lasted this long, I'm one of those why
redesign it sort of guys. On you're centerless grinder,,, it didn't
come with babbit, no way I'da been advising a change from
whatever it came with. It's been my experience, if a product has
been on the market for a while (years) most likely any change in
engineering I need to do is from a lack of my knowledge or product
understanding, not a product failure or design flaw. (7509) |
| Keith The
countershaft from the factory ran the steel shaft in the cast iron
body of the part. If there was babbit in there is was a botched
repair job from sometime in the past. The standard repair if the
iron housing it damaged is to bore it out and fit bronze inserted
bushings to bring it back to stock size. You can then either replace
the shaft with a new one made from 40,000 psi heat treated 4130
which is easily available or have the damaged shaft hard chromed and
reground to size. Putting babbit in any load location where it is
subject to high load and heat generating friction with marginal
lubrication you are asking for failure, I have been this route to
many times over the last 45 years and have more T shirts than I even
want to think about. There are things you can bodger and get away
with it but the spindle and countershaft bearing surfaces are not
it. The all around best is the original cast iron bores and next
best is replaceable bronze bushes. Babbit in this type of
application comes in about 50th after 1220 aluminum bushes. JWE
(7510) |
| I've got the
babbit bearings in a 1941 floor-mount pedestal. It seems like it is
original, but who knows. Anyway, with the tension load of the flat
belt I figured I could do better with some oilite inserts. I'm also
not prepared to pre-heat the floor pedestal, melt and pour babbit
into a set of end-molds I don't have ;-)... Call me chicken or lazy,
but it seems like oilite inserts would be easier. Ideally, I'd like
to install some self-aligning ball-bearing pillow blocks (or
similar), but I'm not going to machine the pedestal if I can avoid
it. Any suggestions? Question about shafting: Do I need something
heat treated if I'm running in an oilite (sintered bronze???)
bearing as opposed to a ball-bearing? I wasn't planning on using
anything I had to harden. I don't recall If I'll need to cut a slot
for a key in the shaft or simply drill a dimple. Paul R. (7511) |
| Paul Melt out the
babbit and see if the hole in the boss is of a size to fit the new
bushing. The material pre heat treated 4130 is available in all
stock diameters from McMaster-Carr and is quite machineable as it is
only at about 40 RC. And you will need three dimples in the shaft if
its like mine. JWE (7513) |
| I have a metal
lathe that was made in 1892. This lathe was in continuous use in a
carriage shop from the day it was made to 1972,when the owner passed
away. Last year I purchased it at an auction, with all it's original
tooling--even the wrench! I still use this lathe today for larger
work. Every bearing on that lathe was babbit, even the feedscrew
bushings were poured with babbit. This lathe-without modification-
will STILL MACHINE WITHIN .001"! This lathe I feel is a testament to
the durability of properly engineered babbit bearings--and to the
ease with which babbit bearings can be replaced. (7516) |
| Nick I would sure
like to see pictures of this lathe, as I am a buff for very old
machinery. Who was the maker of it? Clint (7524) |
| Countershaft
pulley |
| This aluminum-alloy 2-step pulley has a
hole for a taper pin, a 3/4 [1/8-too-small] bore...and PT2542NL1
cast in it. Looks brand-new too. I wonder what it's from? An
underneath-drive lathe perhaps? Nah, my parts book shows that as a
one-piece ass'y p/n AS1960N3 for either type of drive. Nuts. I'll
just bore it out I suppose. Someday. Anyone got a 2-step
countershaft pulley with a 7/8 bore that's 1/8 too big for them,
that they want to swap? countershaft pulley The parts list that I
have shows the pulley and shaft as one unit. No mention of any set
screw, taper pin, etc. I'm guessing that it is pressed on. Jim
(8340) |
| You know, my parts
book shows oilite bushings in the countershaft assembly which mine
doesn't have...I wonder if in later years they switched from 7/8
countershaft with no inserts, to 3/4 countershaft with 7/8OD x 3/4ID
oillites? Or has mine been previously-butchered? I doubt it--the
shaft looks original. Dang. That means I butcher a looks-new pulley
to fit my machine, or replace my countershaft cone pulley. How about
I order the oilites and the smaller shafting and make a brass
bushing to sleeve down my cone pulley? Methinks that's easiest.
Unless someone out there has the 'other' wrong combo of parts and a
swap would benefit us both. I'm open to suggestions. (8344) |
| Lurch, I had a
spare underdrive set-up from which I sold the 2 - step pulley. The
shaft is 7/8 turned down to 3/4 for the 2 step pulley. The shaft is
exceeding worn, but if it helps for machining down for oilite
bushings or whatever other scheme you want to try, it's yours. I
also have the cone pulley with a 7/8 bore. I might need a little
cash for it though. Glen
(8362) |
| Flat belt
pulleys |
| Recently there was a discussion here about the power
transmission capabilities of the flat belts used on our lathes. I
can not get my lathe (a heavy 9) to cut like some of you can. The
belt slips too easily. I've tried several remedies with varying
degrees of limited success. Then, in one post, some one said
something about the surfaces of the pulleys. The surfaces of my
pulleys are shiny smooth. Should they be roughened or possibly
knurled? What was the finish from the factory? In the post to which
I refer (from cmsteam, dated 12/26/02), Rich D
states that tooling ridges on the pulleys could still be felt with
the finger nail. What tooling ridges? This lathe was built in 1939.
On another topic, I'm thinking of setting up a VFD but know nothing
about them. Is there a good primer to read to get basic information
on the subject (such as: how do they do what they do, what is
needed, how big should it be, etc)? Rick B (8480) |
| The pulleys are
supposed to be shiny and smooth. If you texture them, they will
actually grip less as counterintuitive as that sounds. Make sure
that your belt is in decent shape and not oil-soaked. If the pulleys
have oil on them, you can wipe them down with a rag soaked in
alcohol. Make sure your belt-tension is good. c (8482) |
| My 9A when
received was all but new. I removed the apron to clean out the
chips. Almost none were found! This lathe came from a used machinery
dealer in Florida. Obviously, it got little use in all its years.
Built in '46. The ways show no wear. So, it seems then that the
pulleys are like new and have the typical finish of freshly turned
steel. Not particularly smooth, but no where near polished. Running
your fingernail over the surface, you can easily feel the grooves.
The countershaft pulleys and headstock are crowned. The motor pulley
is a V belt pulley driving the C'shaft on a flat surface. The flat
leather belt (a replacement) is only butt spliced with rayon cord,
has never slipped off and can stall the motor under a heavy load.
Motor (original) is a big GE 1/2 HP, 1725 rpm cap start. I would
think that if the motor is correctly sized for the machine and the
belt is tight to spec, then you should be able to stall the motor
without a slip-off. You might want to run a mill file over the
pulley surfaces just enough to return to the as turned texture. Easy
to do as the lathe runs. BE CAREFUL! Knurling is not a good option.
RichD (8485) |
| Yet in How To Run A
Lathe they tell you to keep oil off the belt, but then they turn
around and tell you to use neat's-foot oil to condition it. Then
again, my belt is probably 60 years old as is the lathe, AND IT IS
FLEXIBLE ENOUGH TO TIE IN A KNOT EASILY. The deep cuts I speak of,
where the lathe will take 1/8"+ off steel [1/4"+ OD reduction] are
all done in one of the two lower back-geared speeds and with the
belt tight enough not to slip. 1/8" cut is about the max SBL says a
9 is capable of...5/16 for a 10...3/8 for an 11...1/2" for a
13...all from p.36 of How To Run A Lathe...I assume those figures
are based on proper cutting tool geometry and quite sharp to boot.
Perhaps there's a certain minimum amount of flexibility needed for
proper traction? The new belt stock I have is still leather-colored,
and it is much, much stiffer than what's on there. Perhaps a new
belt needs to be soaked in neat's-foot oil from the flesh side to make
it flexible as cloth, then any hair-side oil dried off thoroughly so
it isn't slippery? I do know it is important to install it with the
smooth [hair] side towards the pulleys. Mine it doesn't seem to
matter--it's so grungy I can't tell which side is which anymore. Or
maybe using back gear I've given a false impression of what mine
will do? Sometime over the next few days I'll have to put the new
belt in there and see if performance improves or degrades noticeably.
Lurch (8486) |
| If you can stall a
1/2-HP motor then belt slip is simply NOT an issue. Electric motors
have their highest torque at stall, too. Any chance you could post a
close-up pic of your pulley's surface finish? I think having the
proper side of the leather towards the pulley and proper tension is
more important than we give credit for...How To Run A Lathe
[hereafter "The Book"] says when installing a new belt to tension it
to where pressing on it by hand near the pulley, deflects it 1/2".
Thinking about it, that's pretty danged tight. If I didn't have that
written spec to work from I'd think it was too tight--that's the
same deflection as a properly-adjusted motorcycle drive chain, which
certainly doesn't stretch...[I know, chains/belts is apples/oranges
but bear with me]...my point being 1/2" deflection is tight; at 1/2
deflection you can hear the chain 'sing' at low road speed, say 10
mph. Lurch (8487) |
| Lurch, A pic is
really not going to give you the feel for it. The surface is just
like you had turned a piece of cold rolled steel with a so-so sharp
tool. It's smooth to the skin, but has the usual grooves and ridges.
A sharp 10" mill file used to re-cut the pulley surfaces as it
rotates will do just the same. Don't forget the crown is necessary.
When I rotate the countershaft lever to run, the belt makes a sound
like you had strummed a low key on a cello. RichD (8491) |
| Do you mean what I
think of as the belt-tensioning lever? Or the back-gear lever?
Either way I think I get your point--the belt is tight enough to
'sing' [albeit in a low key] when 'plucked' or otherwise disturbed.
(8522) |
| Lurch, The belt
tensioning lever on the cabinet side. Rich (8525) |
| I have a
horizontal-drive lathe, but 'belt-tensioning lever' I understand. (8527) |
| 9 Inch Motor
Pulley Diameters |
| I have a back drive
9inch but need the diameter of the two step motor pulley. Not the two
step jack shaft pulley but the small one that goes on the motor.
Anyone know the diameters of these steps? OR do you have one for
sale? Jeff
(8957) |
| There are
several pulleys with different diameters available depending on the
year of manufacture, motor shaft size, etc. but the one called for
in the later parts lists is PT2131K1 which has: 3.956" and 2.237".
Some of the earlier lathes used PT2181NR1 which has: 3.570" and
2.093". There are some others but they fall somewhere in this range,
generally. Webb(8958) |
| Need a v-belt motor drive pulley for SB 9 |
| I have a
back drive type 9inch SB lathe and all I need to make it go is the
small two step v-belt pulley that fits on the drive motor. Through
hole is 5/8 inch. Anyone got one of these that they want to get rid
of? Jeff (9182) |
| I had this
same problem with my 10K lathe. I picked up a standard three step
aluminum V pulley from any hardware store. the two steps that you
need to suit your needs are on that pulley. If you do not want the
third one, just machine it off. You will be totally happy with the
results. Desmond (9204) |
| Lower cone
pulley countershaft brg. squeal |
My lathe has
developed a squeal that comes and goes from one of the lower cone
pulley countershaft bearings. It is an underneath drive model. I
have attempted to lubricate it with oil, but that doesn't seem to
prevent it. What can be done? Rush
(9380) |
| What model
of lathe do you have? 9 and 10K have sleeve bearings and the Heavy
Ten uses ball bearings. Could it be a belt squeal? Try rubbing a bar
of soap against the belt and see if the noise goes away. Could it be
the bearings in the motor? If the motor uses sleeve bearings, they
should be oiled occasionally (like once every couple of months or
so). Webb (9381) |
| It is a
simplex 13"/20" swing floor mounted gap bed lathe similar in design
to the heavier southbend. I'm pretty sure its the front lower cone
countershaft bearing making the noise because after a fair amount of
running time the bearing housing gets very warm to the touch while
the others stay cold. I have attempted to lubricate it with oil
however the noise still comes and goes. Rush (9389) |
| Counter
balance spring 10 heavy |
| I have
discovered that the counter balance spring has been broken for quite
awhile. Would that cause a low rumble and slight vibration when
using the slowest speed (not with the bull gear engaged)? With the
belt on either of the other 2 pulleys no noise or vibration is
experienced. I have checked the large and small headstock bearings
for excessive play - a thou and a half- 'should be O.K. Joel (9498) |
| Any private
responses on this Joel? Anybody have an answer? I also have similar
"out-of-balance" symptoms at slower speeds. Where is this
counterbalance spring you are talking about? I have parts diagrams,
so if you describe it that way I should be able to find it.
Wallace (9535) |
| Wallace, If you are
referencing SB parts diagrams, most of them only have the Counter
balance drive for the 9. The 10K is different. You might already
know this. If you can find the Army Manual for SB lathes, it shows
the 10K rear drive setup.(9536) |
| Two versions of the 10K. One has a rod
through the headstock attached to the counter balance drive by a
clevis. The other is similar to the 9, but has a knuckle in the
middle of the rod to take off tension. There is a plunger of sorts
that goes with the spring. Tom (9537) |
| Wally and group,
The counterbalance spring is used with the steel cabinet bench or so
the parts book says - form 919e, dated 4/5/65. I ordered and
received one from Rose - like a shot. I also spoke to Randy at SBL -
quite a guy - He suggested that I replace the oil in the head pulley
assy. (cones) with a high Teflon content grease. He seemed to think
that the CB spring might not be my problem. That spring, by the way,
will be a bear to install. Anyway, Permatex markets a Teflon rich
grease in 3oz. tubes as well as tubs and cartridges. I opted for the
tubes 'cause it's 'gonna be tough enough to pump grease into that
little hole that says "Oil". The part number is 81946 for the tubes.
I don't know how readily available that stuff is - I am in the Auto
Parts business and my warehouse didn't have it - they had to order a
case for me ( 6 tubes to the case ). Did I make much sense? I'll
attack the spring this weekend and follow up on Monday. Joel (9538) |
| Joel, I will
buy a tube or two of that teflon grease if you want to send to
17366. let me know the cost. Wayne
(9539) |
| There is a
Teflon-rich lube available from MSC - Their part number 00257006 is
for a 3 oz tube. I made the switch from oil to the above lube about
a month ago on my 10k AND I WAS ABLE TO TELL THE DIFFERENCE
IMMEDIATELY - the cone actually spun when I disconnected it from the
bull gear and loosened the belt! It's easy to shoot the lube into
the oil hole. I made a brass nozzle that screwed onto the end of the
lube tube. The female threads that the lube tube screws into don't
have to be exact - practically anything close will do. If anybody
would like me to, I can post a JPG of this, but it really is simple.
Yeah, Randy is great! Frank (9541) |
| Tension Lever
question |
| I downloaded the
"Army Manual" to help me set up my new 9A. Heres the problem. Page 1
shows the tension lever connected to the countershaft (motor side).
Page 10 shows it connected to the headstock end? Having never seen a
SB 9 in service, I'm having one #% !!! time trying to figure this
out. You would think that somewhere a Pic somewhere would show the
correct mounting, if so I can't find it. I thought I had it but it
didn't work out. As simple as it is, something isn't right and I
can't figure it out. Must be the hour. Anyway, could someone measure
the distance from the pivot point (where the pivot shaft is on the
motor side casting) to the rear mounting bolts on the headstock for
me. Manual says 15.75 inches on the 10K version. Is this the same
for the 9 inch version? Anybody living in or around Maryland with a
9A I could call on the phone? Well, maybe tomorrow. Larry
(11134) |
| Larry. Take a
look in my photo album. It called Bills SB9C,in there is a photo of
the tensioning rod setup. I hope it's clear enough that you can tell
where each end fastens to. Bill
C.
(11135) |
| Larry- Do you have
a fax number? Rose Marvin (11141) |
| I'm sorry to say I don't. In the light of the new
day I've picked up an important clue. I now believe that the tension
lever is made to lock in the tension mode rather than the slack
mode. DUH. I was of the belief that the weight of the motor supplied
tension on the belt. I now think the lever forces the assembly back
and stretches the belt. Later, tonight maybe, I'll give it another
try. The Army manual is most misleading on this one point. This is a most helpful group when it comes to
technical problems. Sometimes the most basic questions are passed
over due to people encouraging the poster to do some research first.
A fellow member sent me some pics a while back of just what I'm
talking, but I lost them in the computer. Larry (11144) |
| I wouldn't 'stretch' the belt. I've found that
getting a can of belt dressing from AutoBarn (NAYY) provides enough
friction to allow the belt to be quite slack and still not slip
under load. The implication here is that higher belt tension leads
to friction (duh), but there's a corresponding amount of lateral
force on the bearings in the headstock. Any additional force beyond
what is needed to turn the spindle can produce heat (which expands
stuff, which binds stuff, which stops stuff, which makes you tighten
the belt, which causes heat, which expands stuff, etc). Before I
understood this (smack) I went through the cycle above until the
headstock touched my forearm (no scars). bob.
(11147) |
| Bob, I now have it up and running. The wrong belt on the motor and
a few other oddities threw me off for a while. My rear shaft assembly
is a bit different then most. I think it may have been off a
vertical drive altered to horizontal. If you have a 9A and some time
I'd like to ask a few basic questions about its operation.
Larry
(11157) |
| Proper 10k
Motor Pulley Dimension |
| My 10k has been
upgraded to a 1 h.p. single-phase motor... the motor pulley looks
not-standard. It drives a 5L v-belt to the countershaft pulley. Does
anyone know the proper dimensions, i.e., OD and ID, for the motor
pulley? (12895) |
| Can't
tell you which pulley it is, but if you will click on the link
below, then follow it to page 23(of the PDF, page 19 of the actual
document) it tells the various pulleys, sizes and pulley part
numbers used on the South Bend lathes. BK(12908) |
| Need two-step
motor pulley for 10L |
| I just got a 10L
with the late model sheet metal stand. I'm switching the 3-phase
motor (7/8" shaft) to a single phase motor (5/8" shaft). I would
like to find a two step motor pulley like the original that will fit
the 5/8" shaft of my new motor. Any idea where I might find one of
these? Zach (13617) |
| If pulley is of
original size other than bore ( and you have room in the hub ) I
would sleeve it back. There are some excellent Loc-Tite products
that you can use to hold bushing in pulley. On small bushings at
work we put .003 to .005 clearance on bushing and use Locktite 271 I
believe and I can guarantee bushing will not slip before some other
part ( key or belt ) fails. Barring that if you have part # for
pulley I have a Pulley Form from SB that gives sizes if you would
like to make yourself. Ron (13619) |
| Zach I had a
similar problem in that my original single phase 115v motor crapped
out (7/8" shaft). I bought a new motor that had a 5/8" shaft and
made a bushing out of a piece of 7/8" tubing (with a slot milled so
I could put in the key, and a cut out on the opposite side so that
the setscrew would bear down on the shaft). Alternatively, if your 3
phase motor works, I would consider getting a inverter (VFD), which
will give you lots of neat features (like variable speed) and will
allow you to run off single phase 220. Either way, you would not
need a new pulley. John (13620) |
| Diameter of
Electric Motor Pulley |
| I have my 9" all
together and have been given the large driven flat pulley that was
originally on machine. Previous owner had crudely put a v-Belt drive
system from motor to the countershaft system that has the 3 flat
belts to drive lathe. I want to put the flat belt back on and get
rid of the V-Belt so I need to know what is the diameter of the
pulley on electric motor I can't find a dimension in the parts book.
Shawn (16904) |
| The drive
belt from the motor to the counter shaft pulley wheel should be a
'V' belt. The 'V' belt rides on the flat of the big drive pulley. It
does look like it should be for a flat belt though. I think this is
what you are referring to. Tom (16905) |
| Correct motor
pulley size for hvy 10 |
| I recently
bought a heavy 10. Someone used it as a wood lathe! It has a 7"
pulley
on the motor. I know this not right. LeBlond could not tell me what
should be on there. Could someone tell me what size is right.
Gary
(17267) |
| Dual sheave pulley,
large OD is close to 4" so the pitch dia is smaller. Sized for a 'B'
width, 5/8" belt. 1.9:1 ratio from small to large. JP (17269) |
| If you can measure
the countershaft pulley size, the countershaft shaft should run at
579 and 300 rpm so size your motor pulley accordingly. This would be
a more accurate method. Its tough to measure the motor pulley
without removing the covers. The countershaft pulleys are flat,
larger and more accessible. JP (17272) |
| Need source
for flat pulleys |
| I'm converting my
9" SB lathe to variable speed with a VFD and would like to run
straight to the headstock from the motor. In order to do so, I need
a flat pulley to mount on the output shaft of the motor. I'm having
a hard time finding anyone still making flat pulleys. (18560) |
| You already
have the lathe, can't you make one? If you are up to fooling around
with the VFD your lathe skills should be to the point where you can
make a flat pulley. Just remember to "crown" it in the middle to get
it to track properly. Paul(18561) |
| I have
modified several machines to electronic speed control and find that
keeping the step pulley belt is useful for lowest speed and torque
needs. Better control is had by keeping the motor in a certain speed
range. Motors run a low speeds and high torque have low power and
high heating problems. Better to switch the belt to a better ratio.
Some VFD's and motor types have a limited useful speed range.
RichD (18562) |
| You can get
the pulleys from McMaster. Rich is correct, you need the motor to
run at the higher speed for the best torque output. You are better
off using the motor in place of the old one and driving the
countershaft at an adjustable speed. A small flat belt pulley is
only good for a very thin flat belt which won't transmit the torque
necessary. The end result is an infinitely adjustable speed lathe
with full power. You will still have to move the belts once in a
while but that is no big deal. JP(18563) |
| You might consider
starting with the "innards" of a harmonic dampener (crank pulley)
from a car. The item is basically a two part component separated by
some rubber. The inner part on some designs when knocked apart is
the spitting image of a flat belt pulley, and you could also
consider leaving it intact and find one from a serpentine set-up
(a.k.a. flat belt) that might only need some machining on the rim.
Their are different styles of center holes, so you may have to
improvise. My suggestion would be to look at a Jeep Cherokee early
90's with a 4.o/6 cylinder engine and knock out the spoked inner
part. If you have trouble finding one, drop me an email and I think
I might have one or two in the shop. Andy (18588) |
| Balancing the
counter shaft |
| I have most of the bugs worked out of my 1922 11 x 48. The
remaining issue is that the countershafts is definitely off balance.
Can the pulley be tested like a car tire to determine where it needs
weight added? Everything measures out to be completely round, so I
must be looking at a casting inconsistency. Henry (21297) |
| You should be able
to do that just fine. I recently installed a ceiling fan and put on
weights till it stopped shaking. With the belts removed, spin it
several times marking the bottom most spot. Then on the opposite side
wrap solder till it's shake free. You then know how much weight you
need to remove from the heavy (marked) side. You can then drill a
series of shallow holes on the heavy side till it's balanced or add
weight to the other side and that way your not altering the lathe in
a permanent manner. You also would then know where the heavy side is
and examine the casting for "excess" material that you could file
off. Joe R. (21302) |
| I agree with the
balancing act (good advice) but it does seem funny that the shaft
would come out of the factory unbalanced. Sure you are not missing
something? Eric (21303) |
| I had an unbalanced
pulley on my compressor. Someone had obviously lost the locking grub
screw, and replaced it with a longish bolt. I changed it back to a
grub screw, and the thing ran well enough after that. Could it be
something as simple as this? Len (21304) |
| Perhaps it isn't an
unbalanced countershaft at all. Maybe you are seeing wobble due to
egged bores in the casting, or perhaps a bent shaft? (21305) |
| It sounds like a
bent shaft to me. Easy to check even with the flat pulley still on.
The jackshaft is susceptible to damage as it sticks out the back so
far. If someone let it drop it would hit on the large pulley or the
flat pulley. Paul (21306) |
| Henry, Once I
had a lathe that shook the counter shaft bad and It turned out to be
a bad drive belt from the electric motor to the pulley on the
counter shaft. Webb (21312) |
| Last night I took a chunk of wax with a few bolts in it and
moved it to various positions inside the pulley and managed to
balance it that way. It took a fair amount of material to fix the
wobble. I too have trouble believing that this is a casting problem
in the pulley. I was thinking of pouring an equivalent amount of
lead in the same spot and attaching it with epoxy. Does that sound
functional? I am a little worried about the epoxy breaking and
turning the lead into a projectile. Craig: Although the bearings are
tight I will check for egged bores (I take it you mean the
countershaft bearing bores, right?) Although the pulley appears to
run perfectly round I might take it off the shaft and see if I can
detect any wobble in the shaft as you suggest. Henry
(21316) |
| Use a large hose
clamp the screw is the weight I have used it before and it can be
left if there is room for it . Put the lead weights from mag wheels
under the screw it works where you can use it. Thomas (21318) |
| Countershaft
pulleys |
| Could anyone tell me the default sizes for the V-pulleys on the
countershaft, and the size of the pulley on the motor, on the other
'end' of the belt, for a SB9" model C? The reason for asking is that
the lathe I recently bought has 6" and 2 1/3" pulleys, and a 2900
rpm motor. If I calculate and measure correctly, this means the
highest spindle speed is about 2600 rpm and this seems rather too
high to me. And, on pictures of other lathes, the countershaft
pulley seems quite a bit larger. Wouter (21512) |
| Since the motor
pulley was missing on my model C, I had to examine a friend's
similar machine to order one. His machine uses a motor pulley just
a bit over 2 inches diameter, the countershaft pulley is 10 inches,
and it takes a 5L series belt. With a 1725 rpm motor (I believe all
lathes have 1725 rpm motors) the spindle speeds should translate to
680,390,and 235 in direct spindle drive and 130,78, and 50 in back
gear. There were some model C's that had a 12 speed countershaft but
I don't know if you can run a 6-speed headstock faster than
recommended. Something about needing a super-finished spindle (??)
Tj (21515) |
| Personally, I'd
swap out that motor and put a motor that runs at 1725 RPM in it's
place. Replace the pulleys with the OEM sizes as well. Spindles in
solid bearing lathes were never designed to run at 2600 RPMS, as the
headstock overheats and the bearings get scarred. I've heard several
horror stories of people who swapped out the 1725 RPM motors with
3450 RPM motors to get up to metal spinning speeds on their 10Ls and
needed new bearings. Taper roller bearings can be run much faster
than solid bearings. Gabe (21516) |
| After some more searching I did find the following table:
Spindle speeds (approx.), with flat belt: Direct Drive Back-Geared
High rpm 1270,750,446 250,145,86 Low rpm 692,410,244 134,81,50 with
V-belt High rpm 1200,900,662,505 235,179,130,100 Low rpm
640,490,362,262 130,94,70,54 Guess this means that the spindle
bearings are not designed for anything that exceeds 1200 rpm by very
much. Tj, you end up in the low rpm part of the table I would say,
but then based on your pulley diameter and my motor, I will be able
to run my lathe (by only replacing the pulley) to something closer
to the high-rpm part of the table. This, I presume, should put it
back into the bearing-safe regions of operation. I don't know how
the previous owner used to run the lathe, but I might as well take
the spindle out while I am cleaning the lathe anyway, to see how the
bearings look like. If I do, I might 'bug' this list again. Wouter.
(21519) |
| Measuring
pulley diameter |
| When figuring out
pulley (v-belt) diameter is the measurement of the pulley from the
outside diameter or the inner diameter at the bottom of the
V? Carson (21753) |
| Depends on what you
are trying to do. Some power transmission calculations use a mean
belt depth number. If you are just trying to calculate speed rations
you can use the outer diameter as long as you do the same on the
matching pulley. Inner diameters can be tricky because the belts
often don't get that far into the groove. (21754) |
| Like Craig said
there is an "in between" number they call the pitch diameter. For
absolute accuracy those numbers should be used, but for our purposes
the OD will do the trick. I have tried it both ways and couldn't get
either one to come out that accurately. Remember that the motors
themselves vary in speed by 50 or so RPM depending on the load. RC
(21755) |
| The pitch diameter
is the way to do it if you know all the variables and are not mixing
and matching ANSI and SAE rated parts. But for a quick way using the
pulleys and belt you have (and if you're like most of us, you have a
grab bag of "stuff"), pull the belt as far into the groove as far as
you can by force of hand or, if pulleys and belts are mounted, apply
the normal tension. Mark the inside edge of the pulley where the
outer (top) side of the belt meets the pulley. When you remove the
belt, measure down 1/3 the height of the belt from the mark you
made, make another mark, and that is approximately the actual pitch
diameter location of the combination of belt and pulley you are
using. This way it doesn't matter whether you're mixing A belts with
B pulleys, mixing ANSI and SAE stuff, or whatever. If you're
interested in how I came up with the quick dirty method above,
Mark's Standard Handbook for Mechanical Engineers says that for
Standard A sheaves, minimum groove depth is 0.460" and the pitch
diameter point is located 0.125" inside of that. For B sheaves it's
0.550" and 0.175". These ratios are both about 0.3 +-. For properly
matched ANSI belts and sheaves the outside edge (top) of the belt is
supposed to ride at the outside edge of the sheave and not touch the
bottom of the groove. So, you can infer that the pitch diameter
location is going to be about 1/3 of the belt height below the outer
edge of the belt, regardless of where in the groove the belt is
riding (as long as it's not bottomed in the groove). If the belt is
bottomed in the groove, that's the diameter you should use, but your
belt would probably slip badly if it were bottomed. Having said all
that, I'm with RC - For non-critical stuff, I also just use the OD.
For critical stuff, I make sure I'm using matched belts and sheaves
so I can really predict what's going to happen. Ed
(21756) |
| Its always best to
figure out pitch diameter and do it properly. Apart from speed
accuracy, which usually isn't that important for us, you need to get
a good estimate of installed belt length especially if you haven't
got much room for adjusting things. Belts add up expensive when you
end up buying 3 to get the right one. (Been there, done it.) The
standard approximation formulae need pitch diameter and are not in
any case wonderfully accurate. Using the wrong diameter can easily
put you a couple of belt lengths out especially on short centre
jobs, which ours usually are. Other gotacha is that some suppliers
quote or stamp on the overall diameter, some do pitch diameter, some
do a sort of nominal OD taken as where the top of the belt ought to
ride and some just seem to guess. And they are not even always
consistent, something to watch with import merchants who may change
their suppliers without warning so the number on the pulley, if
there is a number, may mean something different when you re-order.
Naturally the merchant stock number refers to what the supplier told
the importers buyer not what the item actually is. In the UK two
common suppliers to "our" market are Machine Mart, who specify by
OD, and Picador, who specify by PD. Guess who discovered he'd got it
all wrong about a week after patting himself on the back for getting
both speed and centre distance just so by cunningly purchasing a
mixture of metric and inch diameter pulleys. Best to wrap a bit of
belt round, measure the OD across it and subtract the depth of the
belt. Round to a sensible number before calculating. Getting it
wrong on small pulleys has most effect on speed calculations.
Getting it wrong on large ones has most effect on belt length
calculations. As usual, not a mega problem if you know what to look
out for but a right PIA if you just assume. Clive
(21763) |
| 10L Stepped
pulley? |
| Is my heavy 10
supposed to have a stepped pulley (2 steps) on the motor? It doesn't
but I have heard some people make reference to one. So right now, I
have 3 speeds plus 3 more in backgear (in theory). If I had a
stepped pulley, I could potentially have 12 speeds? I also seem to
recall that the backgear should only be run in the slowest speed -
so maybe I only have 4 speeds now and a stepped pulley would give me
8? Kevin (24464) |
| I don't know
about all of them, but mine does. It's a 1953 model with the cast
iron base and legs. Greg (24467) |
| Yes, a 2
position and the countershaft has two flat faces in alignment as
well. The countershaft speeds are 579 rpm and 300 rpm. The low
countershaft speed gives a spindle rpm of 50 to 700. If you plan to
cut small stuff you may want the high speed to bring your surface
speeds into the proper range. JP (24469) |
| I just made the
pulley for a group member his was the same way. There are step by
step pics in my SB 10K group if you want to make one. Bob (24470) |
| According to SB
'How to Run Lathe', the 10's" are shown as having dual pulleys,
however in the upper speed the 2 highest back gears are marked as
'not recommended' so they're really 10 speeds. Bernard R (24472) |
| Bob made mine.
Works great. Be sure you give Bob or Rose the bore size. Clem (24475) |
| Bob, Nice site but
I couldn't find the pics? George
(24477) |
| Counter shaft
leak? |
| The counter shaft on my 1967 9" model A is loosing oil
very quickly, I am using south bend "B" oil as their lube chart
says. After running for about 15 min. the counter shaft is empty,
with a nice puddle of oil on the floor. I took the assembly apart and
checked of there was any problems like scouring in the bearings, and
there wasn't. zkling3 (25970) |
| The obvious
question is, how much clearance between countershaft and bearings?
Ed P (26040) |
| I don't know if a
lathe this modern still uses a plain bearing "steel shaft in cast
iron" countershaft unit. If it is fitted with this type of bearing
check the condition of the felt oil wiper/spreaders. Both units of
this type that I've had through my hands had open ended rectangular
slots it the upper bearing surface running parallel to the shaft and
aligned with the oiler. From memory about 1/4 wide by 1/8 deep.
Clearly intended to hold felts to keep the bearing lubricated
without allowing excess to spray out. Over the four bearings 3 had
missing felts and one a very battered remnant. Oil loss
considerable. One unit was approaching 1/8 oval on the worst bearing
and had to have the bearings re-made. The other accepted new felts
and oil loss became negligible. If you are really stuck there is a
form of oil seal called, I think, a V form face seal. This has a
round "boss" fitting tightly on the shaft and a flexible, V dished
sealing ring which runs against the face of the bearing or housing
being sealed. Relatively inexpensive and quite effective. Obviously
they won't last for ever but can be a reasonable alternative when
stuck. If its a plain bearing unit and the bearings are seriously
ovalised it is possible to refurbish them with improvised equipment
but it not easy. I found a way to do it and now can conceive of
better ones but there isn't enough money in the world to persuade me
to do another! Building a new countershaft is easier! Clive (26056) |
