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Lathe - Electrolysis

  
 

 

 
 
Battery charger for electrolysis (Feb 15, 2005) Electrolysis rocks! (Mar 5, 2005)
Sacrificial anode (Feb 24, 2005) Charger electronics (Mar 10, 2005)
Electrolysis help needed (Feb 25, 2005) Electrolysis of lathe bed (Mar 14, 2005)
Cleaning up a 3 jaw (Feb 28, 2005) Advantage of electrolysis (Mar 16, 2005)
 
Battery charger for electrolysis
I need to pick up a battery charger for charging some batteries but also am looking at probably trying electrolysis to clean up the headstock and carriage of my lathe. I have a large plastic tub that I could use and some scrap steel for use as anodes. What amperage/voltage do you recommend? I was reading some websites and they seem to prefer using 6v versus 12v. Regarding the byproduct gases. I was planning on using longer jumpers and placing the tub outside to run for a awhile, what wire guage for the jumpers is recommended? Rick (25236)
Run an extension cord outside to the unit, not extended leads. The amperage is the key. low amps will act locally to the electrode. you move the electrode to the heaviest rust and move it when it is half removed. keep doing that and you'll get even the smallest units to work. But, try some scrap first. Don't make scrap. Dave (25244)
Finally, a subject that I am fully versed in! I use a 6 amp 12 Volt charger. A larger one will decrease your cooking time. Go for the large garage style ones that go to 50 amps. The output is variable. Best for batteries. If you Zap at high amps, you will make a big mess of foam. (DAMHIKT) Stainless is the preferred anode. I use baking soda since washing soda is hard to come by in my neighborhood. I have yet to do the research, but solution temperature may affect your cook time too. Warmer is better and leads to greater amperages with an automatic charger. Mike (25245)
Rick, This is a pretty slow process and with the correct mixture, 1 table spoon soda per gallon h20, the current should start in the region of 1 -2 amps and reach a max of 4 to 5 amps. But I guess that would be something pretty large. With the bits and bobs I did, the ampmeter hardly moved off its stop. The scrap steel needs to be stainless. I would base your charger on your battery needs, the rust removal is just a bonus. Bernard R (25246)
 What gas does this let off? Hydrogen I assume? Alex (25247)
As Dave mentioned, its current that gets the work done. Now the current is controlled by: The concentration of the electrolyte, more washing soda/gal = more current The size of the piece. The size of the anode(s). The distance between the anode(s) and the piece. I use 4 sash weights placed around the piece to get uniform current. For closed work (tube, hollow casting etc) a supported rod down the center and, here because of the narrower distance 6 volts would be good. I there an issue with "burning" the piece, I haven't seen it with 12 V. You should connect to the work before immersing in the solution. This prevents smut on the work I don't know about new chargers, but my old Western Auto has a 6/12 Volt switch. The anode connection should be stout and well thought out. It should be steel not copper or Al. Then you can connect to the portion out side of the tank with clip leads. You will draw about 10 Amps or so. you don't want to have a large drop in the leads. An yes use adequate ventilation. Hydrogen can collect at the anode. Jim B. (25249)
This is not a good choice. The Chromium in the SS will find its way into the tank. It is not environmentally sound to do this. Cast Iron is better. For those who find Washing Soda difficult use TSP (Tri-sodium-Phosphate) This is available at HD and almost any paint store. It is used to prep walls and woodwork prior to painting. It is essentially Washing soda buffered with phosphoric acid to bring the PH into the neutral region. If you insist on using SS anodes TSP will slow down the erosion. Jim B(25251)
Isn't this something like 1 to 2 amps per square inch of part ? I thought there was a relationship ? As I half mentioned, the closer the section of the part is to the electrode, the more that section will be effected. A long bar in solution with a small electrode will have a much greater effect near the electrode with almost no effect far away. That is why I mentioned moving the electrode as the part changes. Dave (25252)
Dave, The references I use are, first Ted Kinsley, who is credited with first publishing the process: http://www.bhi.co.uk/hints/rust.htm  and this guy, who has pictures of the whole process: http://www.cadvision.com/blanchas/54pontiac/deruster.html  As I said earlier, I've only used the process for small parts, but the literature implies that it is the strength of the solution that controls the current. Maybe one of our resident chemists can give a more definitive answer. Bernard R (25255)
I have been recently using this process in conjunction with TSP bath. I first use TSP to remove most of the grime and paint. Then use the electrolysis to remove what is left of the paint and the rust. Once you get going it becomes a quick process. I bought a HF battery charger item #03418 which has 10/2 amp with 55 amp boost setting. The biggest selling point is the built in ahmeter and $30 price. I originally bought a fancy automatic charger but it kept reading the connection a faulty and refused to start the current. I also found a plastic a Christmas tree box to do the 4ft bed. John (25256)
The site I used was http://myweb.tiscali.co.uk/andyspatch/rust.htm because it has pictures. " It is sensible to limit the current according to the estimated surface area of the piece to be cleaned and opinions vary as to the exact current density, but I use and recommend a figure of approximately 1 - 5mA per square centimeter as this achieves a good rate of conversion " Read this site, he seems to be a good writer as well as offering some good suggestions. Dave (25257)
Dave, Thanks for the link, that's the first time I've seen recommended figures based on the area, but it does make sense. Converting to imperial units, at the upper 5mA/sq cm, at approx 6.5 sq cm to the sq inch, that would give 32mA, so a 1" cube would need approx 190 milliamps. A 6" chuck has a surface area of approx 100 sq", which would give an upper figure of 3.2 Amps, and at the lower recommended rate 0.65 Amps. I think the two important points that come from that article is that lots of bubbles means the current is probably too high and you are blasting off salvageable material that could be recovered at a lower current. Secondly, providing that there is some current flow, transfer will still take place, albeit at a slower rate. Definitely seems a case of slower is better for this process. Bernard R (25260)
Sacrificial anode
Has anyone attached a sacrificial anode to his or her lathe? If so, what did you do? Is there any reason not to? I live near the beach, and am worried about corrosion. I try to keep the lathe well oiled and covered when not in use, but sometimes I get sidetracked on something else, and don't look at it for 6 months or so. (25490)
I went to sea on U.S. flag merchant ships for 25 years. I never saw a piece of zinc bolted to the ship's lathe. Nor was there a connection made to the lathe from the impressed current cathodic protection system other than by the connection the lathe got to the hull by being bolted to engine room framing. The SB parts and maintenance manual (CE3458) has a page in it (Form 1038) about lathes out of use for long periods. They talk about keeping it clean, machined surfaces oiled or covered with light grease, painted surfaces kept dry, belts loosened, and lathe covered. Nick (25491)
I highly recommend installing a sacrificial anode on your lathe if you intend to submerge it in an electrolyte.(25512)
Umm, if you attach a sacrificial anode to the lathe during its stay in electrolyte solution, wouldn't the anode be affected and not the lathe? Resulting in nothing happening to the lathe just the anode? Philip (25515)
In the electrolytic bath the lathe is the cathode, not the anode. The sacrificial anode will do nothing nor is one needed. You are, in effect, putting metal back, if there were metal ions in the electrolyte that is. Jim B.  (25522)
Electrolysis help needed
I purchased a battery charger and some washing soda today to do some electrolysis on my lathe parts. I am using a large bin and put in about 20 gallons of cold water. I then put it 20 tablespoons of soda. I took a piece of 22 gauge steel and wrapped it in a rough C shape at one end of the tank. I hooked my connections up and left it alone. The steel is about 2-3" from the part. After about an hour I am not noticing any bubbles. Thinking that maybe the solution was week I mixed about 10 tablespoons more in hot water and made sure it was dissolved and added it to the tank. Thinking that maybe the connection on the part is bad, I made sure I had a good connection to bare metal. Still not seeing a large amount of bubbles. Is maybe my solution to weak? Battery gauge is showing about an amp running through. Rick (25568)
I'm also going to try the electrolysis. This is a pretty good how-to although I haven't tried it yet. http://users.moscow.com/oiseming/rustdemo/rustdemo.htm  Let us know how it turns out! (25569)
I'm assuming your "bin" is non conductive right? Are you doing it in reasonably warm temperatures? Also my uses never bubbled widely but they did emit visible tiny bubbles. I don't recall the current reading of the charger. It's possible that we have a prime case of " A watched pot never boils! Joe R (25570)
You might try this method it works for me. Art Rust Removal by Electrolysis Electrolysis is a standard technique in the artifact restoration field. Most of the tool collectors around here use it. The process requires a plastic tub, a stainless steel or iron electrode, water, washing soda (NOT baking soda!!) and a battery charger. Add about a tablespoon of soda (Sodium Carbonate or Sodium Bisulphate) to a gallon of water. Either of these can be purchased at any pool or spa supply for less than $5. It is used to lower the PH of the pool or spa. If you want, a small amount of TSP (Tri Sodium Phosphate) can be added to enhance the mixture. If you have trouble locating the washing soda, household lye will work just fine. Add about a tablespoon of lye to a gallon of water, this solution will be a tad nastier to use. Always wear eye protection and be sure to add the lye to the water (NOT water to lye!!!). The solution is weak, and is not generally harmful, though you might want to wear gloves. The iron electrode works best if it surrounds the object to be cleaned, since the cleaning is "line of sight" to a certain extent. The iron electrode will be eaten away with time. Stainless steel (some alloys, but not all) has the advantage that it is not eaten away. The electrode is connected to the positive (red) terminal and the OBJECT being cleaned, to the negative. You can use any DC voltage (4, 8,12 or higher) depending on the how quickly you want the cleaning to proceed. The higher the voltage the faster it works and the closer you must watch your brew. Submerge the object, making sure you have good electrical contact, which can be difficult with heavily rusted objects (a large alligator clip will help). Turn on the power. If your charger has a meter, be sure come current is flowing. Again, although good electrical contact may be hard to make, it is essential. If necessary, wire brush a small area. Fine bubbles of Hydrogen and Oxygen will rise from the object. These bubbles are potently explosive, under the right conditions. So do not do this in a closed room but outside or in a well-ventilated area. Go away and come back in a few hours. Rub the object under running water with a plastic pot scrubber or Scotch Brite. Depending on the amount of original rust, you may have to re-treat as many times as necessary. The polarity is important!! The surface rust is being converted to metallic iron, so the process is totally self-limiting. I have left things (by mistake) for several days: the water was largely gone, boiled away by the electrolysis, but the object was fine. Reverse the polarity and your object is being eaten away!!! The rust will go along with it, but then what do you have??? There are many variants: suspending an electrode inside to clean a cavity in an object; using a sponge soaked in the electrolyte with a backing electrode to clean spots on large objects or things that shouldn't be submerged (things with lots of wood). The surface of the metal is left black. Rusted pits are still pits. Shiny unrusted metal is left untouched. This method will cope with any degree of rust, from surface to heavily scaled. You can use stainless steel or junk iron for electrodes. I buy cheap stainless spoons at the flea market for treating small stuff in a plastic dishpan and large iron things to use as electrodes in my plastic trashcan bath. The brew will last until it gets so disgusting that you decide it is time for a fresh one. There is nothing especially nasty about the brew. It's mildly basic-so disposal is not a bio hazard, however you may not want all the crud in your drains. The flowerbed works as one alternative (iron is generally good for plants). One caution: Painted surfaces *may* be damaged when using this method. The clean object will acquire surface rust very quickly. I worked for a company that sand blasted and coated the inside of line pipe. The studies they conducted showed rust begins to form in less than 12 minutes. So as quickly as possible you should wash with 90% isopropyl alcohol then wipe it dry, then further dry in a warm oven or with a hair dryer. Then oil with a 10w oil or one of the new synthetic oils can be used. I have found the synthetic oils last the longest by far. On any metal on which I have just used electrolysis, I generally treat immediately with a hard paste wax, applied directly to the part. It should be hot enough to melt the wax (remove any excess wax with a shop towel or some Scotch Brite). The hotter the part the better the wax absorption as hot metal actually allows the wax to permeate the metal. This method will last for years. The oven or a heat gun is handy here. Try it--it beats any other restoration method I have used. This application gives a better end product rather than the pickled look that acid gives which totally destroys the value of the object. Electrolysis is a tried and true method of restoration. It does have pros and cons, caution and common sense should always be used. When working on any project, correct and adequate protection should be used when working with hot metal, chemical fumes, electricity or mild acid, which are dangerous when not used properly. Be sure you understand that electricity and some of the chemicals in this application can be hazardous. Use of common sense can prevent a trip to the emergency room. One last note: The electrode is connected to the positive (red) terminal and the OBJECT being cleaned, to the negative (black). Reverse the polarity and your object is being eaten away!!! Arthur (25571)
Full of photos directions. http://www.angelfire.com/tx/hotube/electro.html  Jim-M (25572)
Joe, The bin is plastic. About 30 degrees out side. I have the bin set outside the shop door. Rick (25573)
Rick, The most complete write up of the process I have seen is at this site: http://myweb.tiscali.co.uk/andyspatch/rust.htm The way I read it the author is saying that initially current flow will be small as there is little contact with the base metal, because of the rust, as the process continues more base metal is exposed and the current will rise. My own experience has been with small parts and even then it is not a fast process. Too high a current is not recommended, as it blasts material off which would have other wise converted at a lower current. Bernard R (25576)
Please note in the referenced text "and the enormous area of the anode plates relative to the cathode." The loop of 22 gage wire is not enough anode area. I use 4 sash weights. Please avoid using SS. The chrome will go into solution and create a toxic waste. Try to find a goodly area of cast iron. How about an old disc brake disc? For a while even sheet steel will work but this will corrode quickly. Jim B 25577)
Jim, This is a section of 22 gauge sheet metal not wire. Rick (25579)
Rick, What kind of battery charger is it. I bought one that didn't work at all. It had sensors and it was all digital that just didn't want to flow any current. I figured it was to sophisticated for electrolysis. It kept reading the connection as being faulty. I then bought a simpler charger with manual switches an it worked fine. John (25580)
Oops! sorry about that. I usually am interested in stripping paint and cleaning. I draw about 4 to 6 amps with lots of bubbles and foam/ I use TSP not washing soda. TSP is washing soda buffered with Phosphoric acid. Helps to reduce anode corrosion I use about 1 lb per 55 Gallons. 12 volt charger and 3/32 steel wire connecting the sash weights. Jim B. (25581)
John, I am beginning to think the same thing. I bought a new Solar battery charger today and putting a voltmeter on the charger set to 6v 10amp manual charge I see .07 volts and 0 amps taking a reading from the two alligator clips. I want to borrow my neighbors older Sears charger tomorrow and do a test and compare results. Rick (25582)
Yes, That was my next suggestion find another source for DC power. It can be an old computer power supply, a battery, or even your neighbors old sears or Schumacher chargers, the older the better. If it works with another source then it is your charger. It really is a simple process and it works extremely well. I just did my 4 ft bed, it took 48 hours but it really made it easy. John (25583)
If I have to box this charger up and return it, what make charger did you get? Most are advertised as automatic now. Rick (25584)
I originally bought one from Menard's a PEAK performance products model PKC1088A which is a 2/6/12 amp model. I ended up buy one from Harbor freight model 03418, a 2/10/55 amp model. I paid $30 dollars for that one which was on sale. John
(25587)
Wall Mart will have simple chargers. obviously, the higher the amps, the more power. If there is an internal sensor, you should be able to bypass it easy enough. The transformer should be recognizable to the average person. After that should be a black square with 4 legs. either 4 in a row, of one at each corner. that is the bridge rectifier that turns the AC into DC. After that, there might be a capacitor, large round tin can type thing. everything past that is extra. if you can connect your multi meter to the black square you can find the correct wires. for units with one wire at each corner, caticorner are AC, the other caticorner are DC. for the 4 in a row, the two inside are AC and the two outside are DC. Just put a switch in so your leads can connect to either that, or the regular place in the circuit. That way, you can use the charger on the car later on. Dave (25588)
Rick, Bring the bin inside. It is too cold to work well. Don't get too uptight about the Hydrogen gas. If you can only run 1 amp, it will take a while. (days) See if you can bump up the juice. Use HOT water to make the solution. Keep the distances small. I use a 5 gal pail for most things, and a 12" PVC sewer pipe for long things. Mike (25589)
Joe, You are a guy with a sense of humor. I would kike to hear more from you and your kind. You got any good lawyer jokes? After all, we all like to play with lathes and paint remover. Nick (25590)
I see that I have made a typo that may offend people. I can not over emphasize how that was not my intent. I do not wish to offend anyone, as this was a typo and nothing more. I think that my hunt and peck typing skills could us a lot of improvement. I am better at working with paint remover than working with computers. If I have offended any one by my bad typing, I apologize from the deepest, depth of my soul. Nick (25592)
Rick, This is not a fussy process, you can use many different chemicals Washing Soda, Baking Soda, TSP, and Lye (nasty). Extra soda will not hurt anything. Do Not use Sulfuric acid (produces hydrogen sulfide, very explosive), Hydrochloric acid or Muriatic acid (produces Chlorine gas, very deadly). You must have clean connections where you attach to the piece you want to clean and on your anode. You can add mode anodes by using jumper cables, this helps a lot. You can also start the process at 12 volts high amperage and as you see bubbles then turn the charger down, you can even use your DC welder to do this with, a bit on the expensive side for electricity costs. Some battery chargers will not work, you may have one that will not, try another charger or a battery and see if you see bubbles. Terrance (25593)
Nick, I think that anyone would clearly see that it was a typo and not take offence, especially considering the proximity of the "L" and "K" on a keyboard. Terrance (25594)
If the candle flame even hints at flickering. Also if you smoke or burn some candles it will just consume any hydrogen gas. When you learn about partial pressures of gas, you quickly realize that it is very hard to get a pocket of gas. If you see the solution boiling rapidly, then you should be concerned. Dave (25595)
Hey Nick, I don't think anyone took you any bad way. Bernie (25597)
Turns out the problem was with the charger. I tried to sneak over and borrow my neighbors charger this morning but he is using it. So I hooked up a large battery that I have and almost immediately it started to bubble. Its been going about 2 hours now and starting to look a little grungy on the top. In about an hour I am going to pull out the part and wash some of the stuff of. How long would a group 65 battery be good for? I returned the battery charger and will be looking to pick one up a Wal-Mart or Home Depot. Anyone used a Husky chargers sold at Home Depot for electrolysis? Don't want to be caught with the same problem again. Rick (25598)
Just a thought here, would putting a car type battery in the circuit keep these newer battery chargers working? In this type of circuit the battery would work as a big capacitor. Hook up the charger to the battery as normal and this kicks off the auto charge feature of the charger. Run wires from the battery to the tank and your off to the races. I would advise putting a 15-25A fuse in the wires to the tank so if the anode and cathode connects the full current capability of the battery does not weld the pieces together. Also an ampmeter could also be put inline to to monitor the process. A coworker of mine uses his Miller welding supply to power his process. From his setup I give you the fuse and ammeter idea. The fuse and ammeter go in the lines between the tank and battery, not between the charger and battery. (25599)
Basically that is how I used to wire larger commercial slot car tracks years ago, only I used the original variac power supply as the charger and the battery to supply a little extra kick when the track was loaded with faster cars. JWE (25600)
Take the charger you already have and use the battery as a capacitor. i.e. charge the battery that is hooked to the tank. Regarding how long, well that depends... Look at the amp/hour rating. if you know the amps, then you can do the figuring. Likely you don't have that info, so keep it running until the bubbles stop. I usually just run the process for a long time, then clean up. The black grunge doesn't inhibit the process. Don't worry about running long. The process will end when the rust is gone. You are performing a single replacement reaction and turning the ferric oxide into ferrous oxide. (I think I have the order right. Too many years since chemistry class.) Once your ferric oxide is gone, the reaction is done even though the water will still continue to lyse into hydrogen and oxygen. I have never had any destruction of my tools. However, the anode will erode. Your tank will look nasty! No big deal. BTW, this will really clean stuff, so, if you have pitted metal, you will have clean pits. Also, the steel is left kinda grey, not shiny. Some people don't like that. I wash with a ScotchBrite pad and dish soap. Hot water, chemical gloves. Wax or oil the parts immediately after cleaning they will surface rust immediately. Mike (25601)
Mike, Need a bit of clarification on the connections. From the battery charger, take + to + of battery. From - of battery to sacrificial plate and then from piece being de-rusted connect the negative lead of the battery charger? Or is connected another way? Rick (25608)
PLUS goes to the SACRIFICIAL PLATE, MINUS goes to the PARTS BEING TREATED. Charger + to battery +, charger - to battery -. Bubbles don't stop when the process is complete, completion should be in about 48 hours. Parts can be taken out for examination, you can't overdo the process. Bernard R (25610)
Rick, Bernard is correct. Hook up in parallel, not series. Leave the battery hooked up like it is, and then charge the battery with the charger. The battery should provide the charger with the resistance to keep it running. The charger will keep the process running. Mike (25612)
Something else to look at. I purchased a small solid state battery charger from Wal-Mart for this very purpose and it turned out that the charger had a fault protection system in it. If it did not sense a battery connected to the leads, then it would not produce any voltage on them after a few seconds and would turn on an error light. I could not get this charger to work no matter what, so I returned it and bought an *old* charger in the newspaper. Jim (25616)
Cant you hock the charger to the battery and make it work that way? (25618)
Cleaning up a 3 jaw
The recent thread on electrolysis has me thinking. When I got my 16 inch SBL, both the 3 and 4 jaw chucks I received were covered in rust, with some deep pitting on the periphery especially. The working faces of the jaws are not bad, its mostly the body of the chucks. The appearance has always bothered me a bit, not a lot. I'm wondering if the electrolysis method might not make the bodies look a lot better? Has anyone ever disassembled and cleaned a chuck in this way, and any comments on things to watch out for? Mark (25633)
I used electrolysis to clean up my 16" x 8' Southbend. Everything with a rusted precision surface that would fit into a 10 gal plastic container was treated over a period of several weeks. I considered making a special tank for the bed (plastic lined wood sides and bottom similar to a concrete form), but used a brass brush driven in a drill motor instead. Electrolysis worked as described in the various generic resources available on the internet. The 8" Cushman 3 jaw chuck on the L00 spindle was stuck and the chuck was rusty. I submerged the entire chuck and the taper and locking collar end of the spindle. After a long weekend in the solution at 2 amps, the chuck came off easy, taper intact (there was actually very minimal rust binding the locking collar to the threads on the chuck). I further disassembled the chuck and re-treated all pieces. The result is not shiny, like- new metal, but there's no rust. The rust becomes soft and changes color to black. Very easy to remove. I have since used electrolysis on a number of projects with very satisfactory results. Jim (25646)
I noticed the commercial car wash uses plastic barrels to store the cleaning fluid. The barrels are about 40 gallon or more in size and might be an option for a "derusting" tank. I get mine free as they are glad to get rid of them. Eric (25650)
Check out the porta-tankee idea for electrolysis on the old woodworking machines forum. http://fp1.centurytel.net/CharlesMcGough/F%20%20E%20Page%202.htm About half way down is a pic. Rick (25651)
I have heard reports of digging a pit, lining it with plastic and immersing an entire auto hauler trailer. Powered with a DC arc welder. Maybe a kids inflatable swimming pool. All it has to do is hold water and allow loading without a puncture. Ed(25653)
For what it is worth, I built a big box and lined it with plastic. Found out that the plastic sheet you typically buy for vapor barriers is usually of poor quality. Quite a few week spots, outright holes and the like. Took a good portion of the roll before I found a "good" length to use for my purposes. Also found the plastic to be very delicate when pressed by the weight of the water into corners. Luckily I did this outside since we ended up with two catastrophic failures during the run. Lots of rusty water everywhere. (25654)
Electrolysis rocks!
Found on the bearing cover of the right angle drive. Would have been lost if I wire wheeled or sandblasted the parts. Rick(25771)
On my end the photo was not good. Mike (25776)
I posted it in the SouthbendLathePix under 1917 SB lathe. Rick (25780)
Charger electronics
If you have been following my posts I have been using an electrolysis tank to clean up parts for my lathe prior to painting. One thing that I have noticed is that there are times after disconnecting the battery charger where I am not getting voltage from the charger once I connect in the electrolysis tank. With the leads disconnected the charger puts out 12 volts, once I stop and add the electrolysis leads and turn it on it drops to .62 volts. I checked the leads with the multimeter set to continuity and audible and I am getting no open line signals. The water is dirty with grease and paint, not sure if this is causing the problem? As previously discussed I also have a large battery connected in parallel. So not sure if the battery is the problem. Rick (25911)
Does the charger have built in reverse polarity protection? Some of that type won't even charge a completely dead battery, it needs a small potential (correct polarity) at the battery (Cleaning tank) terminals to trigger current flow. If the charger will drive a stop-light bulb try loading it with a lamp before connecting to the tank circuit, then you can disconnect the lamp. You may have a small voltage from the combination of metals and liquids which is of the correct polarity to fool the charger. Jim (25912)
Another thought, along the same lines is that the paralleled battery has been doing all the work with the charger possibly running in saturation. Then when the charger is reconnected the battery voltage is too low to trigger the charger. In this case let the charger and the battery recover without the cleaning tank connected. Jim (25913)
Rick, Something I'm not following here. Is the battery still connected at this time? If it is the battery is kaput. Disconnect the battery from the electrolysis tank and measure its open circuit voltage, it should be in the range 12 to 14 volts. What you are really interested in is what is the current flow, does your meter have a 10 amp current range? If so connect it in series with the battery, (switch the meter to dc amps, disconnect one of the leads from the the battery to the electrolysis tank, connect one meter lead to the battery and the other lead goes to the wire you disconnected from the battery) if its a digital meter the lead polarity won't matter. Its possible that with all the accumulated crud you are now drawing excessive current. These are the first steps, lets know what you find out. Bernard R (25915)
This is what I think is happening. The battery sitting with no connections measures 1.4 volts, attaching the charger and the tank leads. I get no amperage reading and .62 volts on the tank leads. I am charging the battery today while at work and see what is happening. Why is the charger not keeping the battery topped off when I have the tank attached? Rick (25919)
Hi Rick I am just curious on the system you are have, the question I am asking is want type of battery do you have ?. The other point is how is it connected? . The normal circuit is that the battery is connected to a circuit by mean of a switch that put the current on or of , now to see want is the Problem you isolate you battery from the load which is your tank ?, the reason I put the question mark is I don t know want that tank is. In a series circuit you have a battery giving current to your load if no current is read then your battery should maintain you voltage . We are applying ohms law here which is V/I=rR V= battery voltage , I= current R=resistance. Normal condition your battery has an internal resistance which we never talk about , as the battery get older an weaker the internal resistance get higher , this mean that if you apply a small load to an old battery the voltage of this one drop faster that a new one , water normally is not a conductor but because of or pollution factor it conduct very well , which in fact if there are water around your battery it may be a load just a theory . Now by giving me more details I could help. I hope I didn't put more confusion in your head . I am sorry I just curious. Robert (25921)
Robert, The battery is a relatively recent large size (commercial truck) Exide Battery. Here is my best sketch of the connections. C-------B-------T H A A A T N R+++++++T+++++++K G E E R R Y - means Negative connection + means Positive connection TANK is an electrolysis tank. + is connected to scrap steel. - connected to lathe parts. From multimeter readings it appears that the battery is running the electrolysis and being drained not the charger. Rick (25922)
Rick, Hopefully by now your battery is recharged. Does your charger have an ammeter? If so run the system is with your multi-meter set to amps and monitoring the tank current. If the current being drawn is more than the charger is putting out then the battery will drain. The most accurate way is to first check current flow to the tank, then using the same meter check current flow from the charger. How much current is being drawn with the re-charged battery? anything over 5 or 6 amps and your solution is too strong. Very likely as the process continues the current will increase due to the contaminants in the solution, the additional current will not be part of the rust removal process. The tank current flow gives you the best indication of what's happening to the process. Bernard R (25925)
Rick A typical domestic battery charger has a transformer rated at about 50 - 100 VA. or 50 - 100 Watts max capacity. Approx 4 - 8 Amps at 13.2 V. The actual battery voltage determines the charging current up to the point where the charger cant produce enough voltage to overcome the battery voltage to drive charging current into the battery. But if you have a sustained tank current in excess of the indicated charging current the battery is not being charged. I do not know what charger you have or why you have both a charger and a battery but you cant get out more than you are putting in. As far as the battery is concerned it may be suffering from a condition at a connection where a chemical deposit acts like an old copper oxide rectifier. This condition will allow a charging current into the battery but will block or restrict an output current. This used to be common 40 yrs ago at the output terminal posts where cleaning and coating with grease would suffice, but seems to be even more common to-day, possibly due to modern manufacturing methods where the intercell connections fail and the battery is a write off. Perhaps you would be better with a transformer and rectifier of adequate capacity and with adjustable voltage to overcome the effects of polarization, and forget the battery. Jim (25926)
Jim, The problem is with the new chargers if they don't detect a load they will not charge. This was discovered with two different new battery chargers. Yard Sale season is coming up soon and I plan on trying to find the oldest battery charger that I can to avoid having to use the battery. Rick (25929)
Rick How the first thing to check is the battery if it acid level is ok if no add water to it, the good level is at the plastic ends in the interior of the cell the reason I am say this is if the cell are low you will not get a voltage in the output I presume it a 12 volts ?. According to the information you tell me it seem as if the charger is draining from the battery or the battery is old . Normally if a battery is in good condition without a load it should keep it charge a long time like a month or so . Another thing to be shore don't put the base of the battery on the cement or on the metal plate it has a tendency to leak a little current from the casing unless it is very clean , the charger should be at a high voltage that the battery as an example the charger voltage of a 12 volts battery should be 13.8 to 14.5 volts that give a 2 amperes charge wend it is full. Robert (25931)
Rick, The simplest charger you can get is a transformer, bridge rectifier, fuse and box. I see that there are 12 V 15 Amp transformers on ebay for $15. A 30 amp bridge rectifier is about $5. Batteries don't need a smoothing capacitor, in fact they work better without. If you need a circuit contact me off list. Bernard R (25937)
Rick, It sounds to me like you have a multistage charger and a dead battery. A multistage charger is designed so you don't pump 10 amps into a dead battery forever. That could cause it to heat up until it explodes. So, on modern chargers the first stage of charging is called trickle charge. In trickle charge you only pump a very small current into the battery until it gets up to a certain voltage level and then it goes into high current charge. During the trickle charge the charger is current limited to a very low current. So, if you have a big load like a dead battery or a tub full of conductive liquid the voltage across the output of the charger is going to be really small. During the high current or "bulk" charging phase you are still current limiting but the current limit will be quite high 5 to 10 amps, maybe. And, the charger can only be in this charging phase if it sees a voltage across its output terminals that is higher than the trickle charge trip level. During bulk charge phase the battery voltage will work its way up. The bulk charge phase is designed to pump as much charge into the battery as it can handle without overheating it or overcharging it. When the current drops to certain trip level, because the battery voltage is approaching full, the charger kicks into the "float" charge mode, which is a voltage regulated charging set at the proper maximum charge level for the lead acid battery for the present ambient temperature of the room. In the winter the voltage level will be a lot higher than in the summer. After the battery gets to the charger-regulated float level the battery will only draw enough current to replace what the battery loses due to internal leakage. So, if you don't put a battery across the charger or if the battery you put across it is dead, you can expect to only get a small trickle charge current at very low voltage. Now, new lead acid batteries will hold a charge for a fair amount of time on the shelf. But, they like to be kept on a float charger when not in use. If you let them drain down too far and sit there at that level for any length of time it severely shortens their life. So, depending on this "newer" battery's history it could already have met its demise. Or, maybe it just needs a good charging before you are ready to use it in this application. Hope this helps. I have enjoyed this thread on rust removal. Neal (25942)
Electrolysis of lathe bed
Built a custom tank to fit my lathe bed and filled it up tonight. As suggested used rebar for the array and also placed a sheet of metal underneath the bed prior to dropping it in. The bed is separated from the plate by 1x strips. Tank measures 22x96x11 and I calculated roughly 100 gallons of water so I should use 6.25 cups of washing soda correct? Battery is charged up and just need to get more soda and a battery for my multimeter so I can monitor the process. Plan to soak it for about a week. Will post photo to southbendlathepix under 1917 16 Sb lathe for those who don't get this. Rick (26066)
Unless your bed is really rusty you will not need a week. Make sure that your charger is kicking out at least 2 amps. This may require that you set the charge to a higher setting. I used the 6 amp setting for some small parts. The electrolyte quantity isn't critical. Don't worry about an exact measurement. There are some pictures in the Projects gallery of www.homemachineshop.com  of the process being used with some small parts from a Hardinge lathe. The black oxide material that forms in the process is hard to get out of small pits and casting marks. Richard (26069)
Its not. Mostly grease and about 5 layers of paint. Rick (26072)
I'm going to be doing this electrolysis thing in a little while as I hear it works well on rust. Was wondering if the parts needed to be degreased significantly for it to work properly. Some areas are greased up and some are rusted. Bruce (26093)
Hi Rick, Where did you find the Washing Soda? I thought that a hardware store around here that has everything, would have it and they had no idea of were to get it either. Jim (26096)
Local grocery store Acme, division of Albertsons in the detergent aisle. Located on Top shelf. $1.99. Rick (26104)
The parts should be cleaned as the reaction will only take place where there is direct contact between the rust and the electrolytic solution. Remove all oil and dirt before hand. The process will leave a black finish on the parts that will need to be removed. Upon the suggestions of an article I read I used grey finishing pads to remove the rust. The pads aren't very abrasive and were down quickly. They are enough to remove the black material with out removing good metal. Paint should be removed with a stripper first. I found a spray on stripper that worked really well. Before painting I wiped everything down with acetone. Richard (26105)
Super market in the laundry soap section, it is a Arm Hammer product. For something a little stronger at most DIY stores TSP. JWE (26107)
Advantage of electrolysis
Been following the threads on electrolysis as a form of rust removal with interest. Not sure if anyone has explained the advantage of this method over a mechanical method of cleaning such as bead blasting or scotchbrite wheel? mark (26130)
Electrolysis leaves nearly all of the existing iron atoms still attached to the part - in place. it even possibly causes one or two that are partially attached to oxygen to stay attached to the base iron because it tries to make the oxygen let go while letting the iron stay attached to other iron. Scotchbrite is a non-woven material with abrasives glued onto it so the abrasives will abrade away the things that they are rubbed across, including the iron. not very much, but some is worn away. glass beading also is abrasive, as is shot peening in some small amount because surface particles that are loose or flaky are struck with mechanical force and the surface is peened by the impact. this causes surface irregularities and roughness and some amount of abrading of the material because the loose particles are broken and driven away and as the surface is peened further- more loose particles are created . blasting with vegetable abrasive ( walnut shell etc) may be the least aggressive but may not get the surface very clean as some of the oxides are harder than the blast material. shell mixed with rouge or other abrasive is the same effect as Scotchbrite but different abrasive grit size. other forms of chemical cleaning are nearly same as electrolysis - by using chemistry with similar electropotential difference you can motivate the same type of chemical action but using the chemical reaction instead of the battery for the energy source. once the base material atom is completely oxidized (i.e. the iron atom is completely detached from the base material lattice structure and combined chemically with oxygen) there is no physical way to get those iron atoms to go back to exactly where they came from. abrasive cleaning processes need a vector to hold the abrasive and then impact or drag it on the surface of the thing to be abraded. this is what the Scotchbrite fabric does, as well as the polish- impregnated walnut shell often used. you can only clean the areas where you can send the abrasive with enough force for it to work. electrolysis can work ( albeit with some shadows) in varying degrees in almost any shape area that you can get the electrolyte, even if you have to hold a sponge there to carry it. you can also use electro- techniques to re-plate similar material or another material back onto the base metal, though this is slow and not always so convenient. using the correct chemistry and current, you can etch and plate designs etc. fairly easily. similar thing can be done to etch designs using fine air-propelled abrasives but its very difficult to put the material back on. lots of info on the yahoo groups on electro-etching and plating if you like to read more and a good number of homebrew setups described on the web. (26142)
 
     
 

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