| How do I align the lathe?
(Jan 21, 2001) |
Leveling a 13x40 SB (Nov
9, 2003) |
| Additional note
on lathe leveling (Jan 29, 2001) |
Alignment of headstock to ways
(Mar 14, 2004) |
| Lathe mounts leveling
(May 18, 2001) |
Lathe leveling (Mar 25,
2004) |
| Leveling Screw Question
(Jul 29, 2001) |
On
the level (Mar 31, 2004) |
| Lathe Alignment (Nov 29,
2001) |
Leveling With a transit (Apr 27, 2004) |
| Precision level (Jan 2,
2002) |
Headstock alignment 9" Model A
(May 21, 2004) |
| Leveling a lathe (Oct 4,
2002) |
Leveling question, 9" model A
(Jul 25, 2004) |
| Jon's rocking lathe (Jul
21, 2003) |
Alignment troubles (Aug
4, 2004) |
| Leveling, Shims, and Twist - Oh
My! (Oct 21, 2003) |
Leveling a Newer Heavy 10
(Sep 14, 2004) |
| Grizzly Tools bubble leveler
(Aug 6, 2003) |
Heavy 10 Bed Leveling Screw
(Oct 30, 2004) |
| Checking the leveling of the
lathe (Aug 11, 2003) |
Headstock alignment (Nov
30, 2004) |
| Leveling Question (Sep
22, 2003) |
Leveling question (Jan
27, 2005) |
| Leveling a lathe (Nov 4,
2003) |
Easier to Handle Levels
(Feb 20, 2005) |
| |
| How do I align the lathe? |
| I get a .175 taper
cut on the lathe What should I do. Brett (80) |
| If your saying that
when trying to turn a cylinder between centers, you get a taper
instead, most likely you need to adjust the tailstock setover. If
you are tapered by .175, you should be able to see some alignment
difference if you slide the tailstock up to the headstock to touch
the centers together. Common things to look out for before playing
with anything are (guys, help me out here): 1) Tailstock ram
extended too far and bent/worn/loose 2) Tailstock center not
pressing enough against workpiece (slop) 3) Tailstock center worn
off-center -- regrind 4) Tailstock Morse taper dirty/damaged
Assuming everything is in good shape: To dial it in, you can adjust
the tailstock setover by half the amount of the difference in end
diameters (moving in the proper direction) and make another test cut
and see where you're at. Use a dial caliper or micrometer to measure
the diameters, and the cross-slide micrometer dial to help make the
adjustment. If this isn't your problem, maybe the center heights of
your headstock and tailstock are different. This is exaggerated by
improper tool height setting. I wouldn't think this would be the
case, but if so, then you need to (hopefully) shim the headstock up
while keeping the spindle axis parallel to the ways. What else is
there to watch out for, group? Paul R. (81) |
| Additional note on lathe leveling
|
| Learned this one
from an old timer. Four pieces of drill rods about 2 to 3 inches
long, diameter big enough to be taller than the ways, but not so big
to be cradled by the ways. Two at the headstock, and two at the
tailstock, place level on the rods. Reasoning on this is - older
lathes with non-hardened ways wear on the ways, the use of the drill
rods - is on the flat surface that has little or no wear. Been using
it, works for me. Carl (104) |
| Lathe mounts
leveling |
| Dennis: I am still
in the process of building my benches but when they are done they
will be anchored to the floor with "red head" type fasteners so that
any vibration of the lathe or anything else will not let it move
after I get it level. Randy (656) |
| Randy, Can you
supply more info on "red head" fasteners ? Are these just a type of
vibration isolator ? Dave (657) |
| Dave: I'm sorry I
didn't explain, "Red Head" is just a brand name of a fastener that
locks itself into the concrete floor. You drill a hole and insert
the fastener then set the lathe bench over the fasteners, shim to
level and tighten the bolts and the flair out or wedge themselves
tight to the floor, then check your level and readjust the shims
until it is level with all the bolts tight. I don't think you want
any anti vibration mount under your lathe feet it would be hard to
keep it level. Randy (658) |
| Yes, I thought of
using a wedge anchor/sleeve anchor or the bottom bearing hammer
driven anchor. You can see redhead brand at:
http://www.ramset-redhead.com/
I wasn't sure if there were enough threads on the bolts/stud to
engage cabinet foot, shims, washer and nut. at this point I think I
might go with the drop in style anchor and use pieces of threaded
rod -or- fabricate a 3" square -10 gauge plate with a piece of
threaded rod welded in the middle. Then anchor the plate to the
floor and work from there. dennis (660) |
| Dennis: I think you
might have a good idea. I never thought about running out of
threads. Randy (661) |
| Leveling Screw
Question |
| My 9" SB
Model A has a level adjustment screw on the right pedestal under the
bed ways. I'm wondering how this adjustment is supposed to work.
When turning the adjusting screw in or out there's no apparent
movement of the bed up or down, which is what I would have expected.
Could the adjustment have been somehow disconnected by turning the
set screw too far in or out? Any ideas on this?
Jim (1215) |
| Slide your
tailstock toward the spindle and place a level ACROSS the bed of
your lathe perpendicular to the bed at the left end of the bed. Now
turn the screws. There are two, the second one is opposite the front
one on the back of the pedestal. Watch what happens to the bubble on
the level. What you are doing by turning the screws is twisting the
bed, not raising it up and down. Now search the archives of this
group for leveling instructions. There is a good post of it about
someone's 'fathers' method, I can't remember the names. Anyone else
able to be more specific? Raymond 1220) |
| Rollie's dad's
method. Bill (1223) |
| Raymond, I located "Rollie's Dad's "
leveling method. I did try fiddling with the screws with a bubble
level across the ways, near the spindle end and near the right end,
and couldn't detect any movement at all at either end. Tried all
combinations of the screws I could think of. Think the leveling
mechanism could be broken, jammed, or somehow disconnected? Jim (1224) |
| Jim, Only
inspection of the base and leveling mechanism can determine if
something is broken. However, the two screws should be moved equal
amounts in the same direction, that is to say, both toward the
front, or both toward the rear of the lathe (front in, rear out, or
front out, rear in). My specific method for leveling is to begin
with both screws loose. Place the level under the spindle nose and
level the bed front to rear by shimming the headstock end, then place
the level along the bed and level length wise by shimming either or
both headstock end or tail stock. My 10K is a cabinet mount, so I
placed shims under the pads of the cabinet. Shims for bench lathes
should be placed between the bench and the lathe feet. Check and
shim both directions until both are true. Then place the level at
the tailstock end of the bed across the ways. Don't be surprised to
get a reading completely different than that under the spindle nose.
Use the leveling screws to twist the bed level. If the bubble is to
the rear of the lathe, you need to first tighten the rear leveling
screw. This will twist the ways away from the operator side. Of
course you would do the opposite if the bubble were toward the
front. Once you have the bubble centered in the vial, snug up the
other screw while watching the bubble, it will move again. Alternate
tightening front and rear screws, keeping the bubble centered. Now
comes the frustrating part: check the level at the headstock end.
It's out again! As is the length. It takes patience to complete this
job. you'll need to tweak things here and there to get it
acceptable. I don't worry so much about the length, it's not so
important as the ways being parallel and in the same plane. "Rollies
Dads" method posted earlier will give you some excellent pointers.
That is where I started. Hope I've been of some help. BTW: If you
think your SB lathe is tough to level, I have had to do machining
centers that weigh tens of thousands of pounds and have 6 or 8
leveling pads! Raymond (1226) |
| Raymond, I tried both screws to the front
and both to the back Absolutely no movement that I could detect on
the levels. I couldn't feel any resistance on either screw until
they stopped all the way in. I'm about to conclude the mechanism
needs an "overhaul". I copied your post for future reference. Sounds
like you've had to deal with some heavy duty equipment.
Jim (1227) |
| I don't know if
this has been covered, but you can't just use a garden-variety
level. It has to be a very sensitive machinist's master precision
level. Mine is sensitive to a half a thousandth over 12 inches. If
you're working to this degree of sensitivity, you also can't just
plop your lathe down on a wooden work bench. You really need to
stabilize the base so there's no chance of bed twist with bench
flex. You also have to avoid leaning against the head or tail stock
while measuring or machining. Paul R. (1228) |
| I've
been using a "garden-variety" level! Maybe that's the problem. Do
you think one would be able to see any bubble movement at all with a
plain old carpenter's level? The lathe I have is the 9" model A with
under motor drive. It has built-on drip pan, steel cabinet with
drawers on right and motor housing on left. I had no idea that
lathes were so "level" and "flex" sensitive. I'm learning a lot from
the folks in this group. Jim (1231) |
| Jim, Sounds like a
nice lathe. My 9" model A is rear drive, w/ motor pedestal, drip pan
and open cast iron legs. You gotta have a real sensitive device in
order to see any changes in level. I'm not going to bother leveling
my lathe until I get it in its final local. I'm in the process of
dividing my garage workshop into separate metal and woodworking
areas. Paul R. (1232) |
| Lathe Alignment
|
| I'm trying to level and use a SB Heavy 10 with a worn bed. It is a 4
1/2 ft bed and perhaps the first 18 inches or so is worn about the
same. I've used several methods to try and level, Rollie's Dad
method and so on, but they all assume more or less you have a
perfect lathe bed. I have used levels to get close and to cross
check the above. Am I wrong in thinking that if I've got it pretty
close, what really counts is does the lathe tool cut the same amount
all the way down the work piece... or at least to the end of the
worn part of the bed anyway. Past that point I expect problems.
So, why can't I just put the dial indicator on the compound at
tool height and use a very straight round bar that is chucked as
close as I can get it in a 4 - jaw chuck. And tweak those leveling
screws at the tail stock end... until I get the same reading or very
close at both ends of my test bar. My round bar is 9 inches from the
end of the chuck jaws to the end of the bar. I'm getting within
about .003 or so end to end on that 9" bar. Or am I missing
something? Bill (2284) |
| The problem with
the bar method for leveling the bed is that the tailstock could be
out of alignment as well. Enter an unknown. If you could remove or
at least move the headstock back to expose the unworn part to your
precision level, you could get the bed coplanar. That would permit
you to align the tailstock by the bar method. Both of these
processes are tedious. If that bed is so worn that the flats at the
top of the vees are gone its never going to be really accurate. If
you can get the bed level or coplanar, you can at least evaluate the
errors. RC (2288) |
| Precision level |
| If anyone needs to
level their machines, J L has an 8" 0.0005"/10" master precision
level on sale through 1/31/2002. #AMIPL-22008H $58.95
www.jlindustrial.com I
picked up a similar one (.05mm/m) from MSC a while back. Made in
Russia and works just fine. Ken (2554) |
| How much does
the level change if you put a hair under one end. I have seen some
posts that say these aren't sensitive enough and I have been afraid
to buy one until someone had tested it and posted about it. Randy (2561) |
| Leveling a
lathe |
| How did everyone go
about leveling their lathe? The manual says to use a level capable of
sensing a 0.003" shim under the lathe. My Home Depot level isn't
going to fit the bill. I also don't feel like spending $100 or more
to buy a machinists level that I'm going to use approximately once.
Any suggestions? (6563) |
| See if you can
borrow one from your local used machinery dealer. Mine lets me use
his whenever I need it - of course, I buy bits and pieces from him
every once in a while, but it is good advertising - I'll buy from
him because he's a good guy. Frank (6565) |
| Mark: Enco has one
on sale every so often that is under $60 if I remember right. You
will use it more than once if you wish to keep the lathe set up to
keep its best tolerance as the bench or stand will shift over time.
Randy (6568) |
| There
is a method of correcting the twist in the lathe bed without using a
level, called "Rollie's Dad's method of lathe alignment." You need a dial indicator and bar of constant diameter, which need
not be perfectly straight. The method is clever. Jon (6569) |
| With all
the talk about leveling, I've got another related question: I've got
a precision machinist's level, but being concerned that placing it
on the top of the V-ways will not be accurate along the worn and
rounded tops of the ways on my 1941 Model A, I use a pair of small
V-blocks under the level. Could I fix the level to the compound?
Wouldn't that be more representative of the way the bed gets used?
Paul R. (6859) |
| Just take the
headstock off and use the good part under it The opposite end should
also have good surfaces. Why are you worried about leveling a worn
out machine. RC (6860) |
| Paul, I would think
about putting some 1-2-3 parallel blocks on the flat parts of the
ways, if they are not messed up. This would get the level above the
'V' ways. I would figure the flats would be on the same plane. Tom
(6862) |
| RC, I didn't say
the bed was worn out. Actually, the business-part of the ways are in
pretty good shape. Only the crest of the v-ways are rounded from
decades of brushing against. Only under the headstock are the ways
in pristine (relatively) condition. The rest of the bed is uniformly
rounded at the peaks of the v-ways. I'm interested in setting up my
lathe for best performance. My question was v-blocks vs. using the
saddle. V-blocks are used in the MTR book. Paul R.
(6863) |
| Tom, Since there is
but one ~3/4" wide flat-way on the bed, I would think there is
insufficient bearing surface for that. Paul R.
(6864) |
| Glad you cleared
that up, Paul. I was about to come to your defense. I believe your
are right on about the Vee blocks. So much so that I made a special
trip home to get them because I'm going to a friend's to help him
level a Heavy 10 and forgot about using the Vee blocks. I'm pretty
sure I did when leveling my SB9A, because of the same condition of
the top flat (not) of the ways. In fact, even on a brand new lathe,
I would think using Vee blocks is preferred as there is no assurance
that the top flat was scraped or ground in to the same
standard/reference of the Vee way surfaces. One thing I'd do is be
sure not to switch the Vee blocks front/back when changing location
on the bed, in case there is any difference between them. If kept
the same, at least you know the level reading is in the same
reference plane and the only difference is the Vee way. Where in MTR
is the reference. Rick K. (6866) |
| I would go with the
V blocks, that eliminates any wear there might be on the bottom of
the saddle. My Logan has a great deal of wear on the bottom of the
saddle and its a lot newer than my SBL. Probably difference in
usage. RC (6870) |
| Rick, Check out
the discussion in Section 14.23 (page 107 of MTR, twenty first
printing, 2001). Right now my lathe is on wood skids at the
headstock/floor pedestal and the tailstock ends. No point in
leveling just yet. I need to install leveling feet under the
cast-iron legs before I do any serious leveling. Paul R. (6871) |
| A good way to cheat
on that kind of a setup is to use those steel wedges that are used
to set work up on planers. You can then measure the gross error in
the floor and make one piece shims to rough in the leveling. Then
you fine tune it with shimstock. A lot depends on the floor. I'm
fond of stainless steel shims, they don't compress or rust. RC
(6873) |
| Jon's rocking
lathe |
| I would
think there may be more to Jon's cross-feed problems then just a
worn screw. Perhaps the cross-feed casting and/or apron assy. itself
has 'saddle' in it. Most older lathes have this problem; particularly
in the bed where most facing and short work is performed. A straight
edge will usually point this up without needing a feeler gage. The
remedy is usually a scraping job, best performed by someone with
experience in rejuvenating machine tools. I would look up the nearest
scraper or machinery repair firm, or better yet SBL for guidance.
Ron (12825) |
| I replaced the
screw and nut with very good results. There is a taper in the
dovetail, where, if I set the setscrews with the slide out to
machine the OD of an 8" disk so that there is no slop, then when I
run it in, it gets tight. So, Yes, it looks like it is scraping or
grinding time. I have a spare saddle. Just for kicks, if I can get a
spare cross slide casting, I may just carefully set up my miller and
recut the dovetails. (12826) |
| Perhaps the
cross-feed casting and/or apron assy. I never thought of the saddle
rocking, but that would contribute to it. %^(#! No easy fix for this
one! And fixing it right means downtime. (12837) |
| Can't say for 100%
certainty but I believe most machine dovetails are 55 Degree Angle.
Finding a Dovetail cutter at that angle is near impossible. Standard
cutters are 45 and 60 Degree. You would probably be better off
machining Dovetails with a single point tool on a Shaper and then
scrape for final fitting. You can add a piece of shim-stock to Gib
to make up for material removed. Ron (12844) |
| I always wondered what a shaper was for, other
than V-Blocks! (Grinning and ducking!) I hear all this talk about
shapers all the time on the metalworking group! What I shall do is
to face off a couple of castings tonight, one with a .004 shim on
the longitudinal "V" (Which is the max wear) and clamp it dead. If I
get a good plane finish, that will nail it. (12851) |
| I put a
dial indicator on the chuck end of the saddle and ran some pieces.
There is 0.003" rock in the saddle when I tighten the lock. There is
0.0005" excursion from the 4" radial region to the center when
running the power crossfeed: Better than I expected. The parts are
coming off flat to 0.0025 center-to-edge, despite the above. I did
snug up the rear saddle slide retainer, 2 bolts in the rear so there
is slight drag when cranking longitudinal feed. I suppose I should
not complain for an old machine. When inspecting the pieces with a
Starrett straightedge, the dish looks HORRIBLE, but the image is
doubled by the reflective surface. A feeler gage tells a different
story. And for those of you who have been around shops a lot, you
KNOW that 0.0025 is the 45 degree sectional measurement of the
fabled R.C.H. Standard, as measured by an ACTUAL certified sample I
had retrieved and treasured from many years ago. So the parts are
really not that bad for 8" diameter, but I still would like to get
them better! Honestly, I paid very little for the lathe years ago,
and it has generated six figures in gross revenues (Yes, yes, yes, I
pay taxes on it) so I have NO problem at all spending a thousand or
two having everything ground and scraped....but in order to do that,
I would have to SHUT DOWN, and THAT is out of the question. Unless I
can find somebody local who I can outsource the machining to while
the bed is being scraped. Couldn't be a big shop with big overhead,
just some guy in the back of a garage...Like ME! (12858) |
| Before I would
suggest any fixes, I would want to make sure the lathe is not bolted
down or if it is, that is is not on wood and that it is level with a
machinist level. Wood will warp with humidity so if the lathe is
bolted to a strong bench, the warping of the wood could effect the
warping of the lathe. Also leveling the lathe will only add
precision
and we can always use more of that. and a machinists level is a
great home project. Dave (12864) |
| I work at a place
that has wall-to-wall Hardinges, and could probably get one sooner
or later if I waited...They are beautiful machines with roller
bearing heads. But it's ROOM! The Model A _just_ fits the space I
have. And the rigging and moving for those heavy things is an issue,
too. When I was offered the SB9A for a song, I said, "I can always
buy a car- To Hell with the car" and disassembled the SB and got it
into the trunk for the WEIRDEST 50 mile drive I ever had. The would
NOT work with the Hardinges! Space is so limited, and the fact that
I do no long work, the thought actually came to me to get some extra
feet, so some machining, and friction saw the left hand foot or so
off the base casting to get rid of the worn bedways! relax, I will
not because I know the casting would spring, but you know what I
mean about being space-limited-If the lathe WERE a foot shorter it
would be fine with me! (12868) |
| I am a third of a
bubble off level- Thanks! Your post made me check it. The lathe did
come with a 1" Steel baseplate, all tapped. I did not use it because
I did not have any help to lift the thing when I got the lathe
together years ago. The lathe is bolted to...WOOD. And I KNOW it was
level when I set it up. OK, I'll buy a new welded steel table, and
use that baseplate! I bet that will give me another .001" center to
edge right there! (12870) |
| If you can fit the plate to
the table you have, a 1" plate should not warp so if the wood can
handle the load, your lathe would be up and running pretty quickly.
as for others who may see the need or want to get a better base,
consider a steel channel or some such to put on your wood bench. the
lathe weighs enough not to move so torquing it to the wood will not
offer any benefit. I would put holes in the channel or box beam and
and use some epoxy to seat the metal to the wood, like a gun stock,
and then use a bolt with rubber washer as a retainer. Dave
(12882) |
| Leveling,
Shims, and Twist - Oh My! |
| I've read about 3
jillion articles on leveling, bed twist, etc. and I think I'm more
confused than ever! I have a '40s-era 10 Heavy. Quite a bit of bed
wear, but I have fun and make decent stuff with it. My biggest issue
right now is that the tailstock spindle center is about 10-15
thousandths lower than that of the headstock. Makes center drilling
a pain. I was going to shim it up, but then read one of the posts
about this being fixed by leveling the bed. (I'm using "leveling the
bed" to mean "adjusting the bed for accurate turning"). When I first
got it, I found shims under the headstock while cleaning it up. Some
things I've read say you should *never* have to shim the headstock -
all adjustment should be via leveling of the bed. Should I just take
all shims out and try to get things right with the bed leveling
procedure? Wallace (14541) |
| What can happen is
if the machine is out of level the bed twists. when you (the
operator) notice the a center drill is not lining up correctly the
first thought is the tailstock is not on center. Maybe! maybe not!
it could be a twist in the bed causing it to have poor alignment.
Maybe the previous owner of your lathe did not level the machine and
his idea of fixing was shims under the head. I think you are on the
right track by removing the shim stock. Not to say the still might
be wear causing some of it. A good sign of improper alignment of the
headstock is cutting a taper. All lathes need a very proper leveling
job first. (14543) |
| With regards to
your tailstock, the first thing to do is to look at the lower
casting where it is in contact with the bedways. You will see and be
able to feel the wear. Chapter 26 of Machine Tool reconditioning
gives all parameters for reconditioning a lathe. I don't believe the
shims under the headstock should remain there. Again, it depends on
the level of wear of the bedways. The previous owner might have
shimmed it to remove some effect of the wear when turning close to
the chuck. The tailstock spindle should be parallel (maximum 0.0005
in high at the spindle end) to the bedways and at the same level as
the headstock. G. Cadrin (14549) |
| Wallace, I would
say remove the shims under the headstock. Then get a machinery
level. Enco has one .0005 in 10" for $50 to $75, a Starrett is about
10 times that price. I think there is one on Ebay right now, a
Southbend machinery level. Anyway, use some accurate parallels and
put them on the flats on each side of the bed and put the level on
top of them across the bed on each end of the lathe. Shims go on the
floor under the lathe with the lathe bolted down. Some people put
adjusting feet on the legs to make leveling easier, mine is bolted
to its own concrete pad in the shop. The book says put the level on
the top of the ways, this assumes the lathe is not worn unevenly.
This is why some people use parallels. If you have a laser level and
10' of space you can project the beam on a spot 10' away from each
end of the lathe, you have to be within .030" or .06" in 20 ft. The
slight angular difference to get to the same spot won't matter but
the beam on a cheap laser is kind of big at that distance for the
accuracy you require. Adding or removing .003 shim under a leg
should be readable. Put a test piece in the chuck of 1 inch or
greater dia and cut a collar at each end. It will look like a
dogbone and be 4" long. Run a fine finishing cut across them without
moving the cross slide. If they are not equal diameter then the
lathe is not level. Adjust the shims somewhat by using the SWAG
method. (Scientific Wild A**ed Guess) When this is done, then tackle
the tailstock misalignment if you still have any. Your problem may
just be the shims under the headstock but at least you will have
your lathe leveled after an hour or two (of great fun?). Check the
level periodically after that as well. JP (14552) |
| Wallace, Short
answer - YES, and you may well have everything drop into place. Lose
the shims, level up, and see if the gods smile. If not... Painful
long answer, hopefully clears up a few of the 3 jillion questions:
Can O' Worms time! Bad news, leveling the bed isn't likely to fix 15
thou of vertical error. A few thou, maybe, probably not... Time to
look at a few more things. What kind of headstock bearings does this
lathe have? I don't recall heavy 10s having the split bronze style
used on 13 and 15 inchers dating back to the 20's, but don't have a
heavy 10 handy. Never overhauled one, but chased similar problems on
other lathes. Is it possible that someone screwed up and failed to
shim or assemble a headstock bearing correctly? This will do a few
funky things. First, the spindle will be inclined with respect to
the bed. For larger stuff a minor bit of error here isn't likely to
be noticed. Second, and a weird form of bad thing, is that the
tailstock will appear either high or low, but if you test with
different length test bars, you get different amounts of vertical
offset. I agree with the idea that the headstock should never be
shimmed. Never being a dangerous word, on a real beater it might
just be a reasonable work around. I'd remove the shims, keeping
track of which shims went where. Level up (AKA untwist the bed)
using the test bar method, then test for spindle incline. Easiest
way to do this is to use the same test bar in the chuck setup used
for dialing out the twist, but clock the TOP of the rod. Still do
the average reading over 360 degree thing near the chuck and some
distance down the bed, just as for leveling. The difference here is:
1) Adjusting the bed support won't do squat to even it out (so don't
try, you'll just be twisting the bed), and 2) You can figure out if
the spindle is inclined, and if so in which direction and how badly.
A useful bit of info the leveling setup won't find for you when you
clock on the vertical centerline, but will when you clock the top of
the test bar. Hopefully, with the shims out, the spindle will not be
inclined. You can also clock a center in the tailstock to derive the
tailstock ram centerline. Once you know the height of the spindle
centerline at the chuck and the tailstock centerline you can start
to sort out just which piece is out of spec. You might just find
that a bearing shim in the right place gets the spindle in the
correct alignment AND gets the centerlines of the headstock and
tailstock in sync. By knowing the tailstock centerline offset from
the spindle centerline, and knowing the direction of the spindle
tilt, you can figure out if the problem is likely to be in the
inboard or outboard end of the spindle. It's trivial to get a
spindle in the right plane, getting it in the right PLACE can be a
bit more interesting :-) A tilted spindle will drive you straight up
the wall and across the ceiling if you don't catch it. You do
everything right, test everything correctly, adjust it all to the
tenth, and the darn machine ends up really wrong. Been there,
learned my lessons, won't repeat the exercise. And now for a really
weird alternative: The spindle is perfect, the alignment is lovely,
the tailstock and its ram are true in dimension and not worn
unevenly. The bed is a straight as physics can define "straight" and
mere mortal can verify. BUT - The headstock was swapped in from a
different bed, or the tailstock is from a different lathe that was
overhauled and the tailstock base was machined and scraped to mate
with a lower headstock. Some goober shimmed the headstock to get the
tailstock lined up with some arbitrary setup long ago, and boogered
the baseline you've been chasing so hard. Might be that simple an
answer with nice easy fixes. Some days we get lucky and are the
pigeons, other days we are the statues. Stan (14559) |
How worn is your
bed and how bad is it? you say 10-15 though high in the front of the
spindle. relative to what? Do you have a ridge on the top of your
ways? can you catch a fingernail on it? is the flat part of the way
like a slide, deepening towards the headstock? Other folks have
given you some real good advice on the matter, but I thought I might
toss out another 'test' if you will. I am hesitant to do so because
I am not exactly sure of the answer right off, and tests only give
you numbers that might make you worry more if they don't make sense,
but here goes.... to get the best answer, you need to eliminate the
error from the reference plane that you are measuring from- the worn
bed. I think the best way to check spindle trueness is to pull the
entire headstock and set it on a surface plate, then indicate the
center line of the spindle. In order to maintain the reference of
the spindle to the ways, use 4 dowel pins under the involutes (? sp)
to raise it up above the surface plate. I am pretty sure that there
are 2 involutes under the entire length of headstock that mate to
the ways on the bed. obviously, measure the dowel pins first to take
into account their variance. I think that he odds are that you could
get pairs of them to match up. 3/4" seems to be the size you will
need. Use the pair on the same side of the headstock to minimize any
dimensional tolerance. I would do the same to the tailstock-
disassemble it and remove the handwheel etc... again on the surface
plate using dowel pins in the involute. Since the tailstock only has
one involute and the flat, use a matched pair under the involute and
one perpendicular to the flat. The tailstock will list on the
surface plate, but you are measuring the axis of the spindle, not
the levelness sideways. Barring a surface plate, IIRC the ways are
ground and scraped end for end on the bed. If you loosen the
headstock you can shift it over a bit left or right to indicate from
'true' ways under the headstock. You should see factory flaking
under there, that should be good enough. Now having shims under
there could muck up the works, I would try and avoid any nicks or
mars on the ways from the shims. Hopefully they used brass or some
other soft metal. The headstock is plenty rigid enough to stick over
the end of the bed so that it still fully contacts the ways. The
tailstock should fit in there fine to measure. checking the
tailstock here I would use a center and check it's height retracted
and fully extended to make sure that its parallel. dennis
(14562) |
| Grizzly Tools
bubble leveler |
| Anyone on the list
ever buy one of those Grizzly leveling bubble levels. They are
having a sale on them right now. I believe the ones that ENCO sells
are the same? I just wanted to know if they are any good? I am
guessing they are a Pacific Rim product, which can be hit or miss.
William (13209) |
| I got one of the
Enco ones. I don't know how accurate it is (since I don't have
anything to compare it to) but it seems pretty precise. They are
made in Poland and come in a wooden case. (13213) |
| I, too, got an Enco
one for about a hundred bucks and it seems very good. You can
self-check these things by simply reversing it and mine seems very
good. I find the level very valuable - keeping a light lathe level
makes an enormous difference in accuracy Frank PS How much are the
Grizzly's? (13237) |
| I got one about
three weeks ago. It was a bit off when it arrived, and it took me
about an hour and a half to calibrate. The instructions were a
little vague, or I was a little dense that day. Bottom line, I like
it a lot for something I will only use a few times a year. Gene.
(13248) |
| Master Machinist's
Level - 8" x .0005" Per 10" These are really accurate levels, not
to be confused with a carpenters level. They make different sized
levels, but an 8" is decent if not too big. you may want to buy some
shim stock at the same time. Check your supplies for sizes in stock.
Here's a start of a simple table - thickness Bud can - Coors
Can - aluminum siding - coffee can lid - Taki-Outtie tray - With the
precision of these, you can find out if your floor or table has any
movement just by putting some weight on a corner. and yes, precision
cannot be achieved if your lathe is not flat. imagine your bed is
twisted, you can't cut a flat facing nor a full shaft as the
carriage
will be moving on a twisting plane. I can't imagine how many guys
'fix' the cross slide to get a flat facing cut before getting the
bed flat. The goal is flatness, level is just an easy reference.
Dave (13250) |
| If you
are going for a machinist level that will do the job get a Starrett
the vial on them is adjustable, they will get out of adjustment just
sitting in their box over a period of time. I have used these levels
for the past 35 yrs. I have a 12 in, 8 6in. I am a millwright by
trade and use these levels to set machinery with all the time. If
the vial is not adjustable there is no way you can keep them
accurate. To check a level, set level on a fairly level surface,
check the bubble's location in the vial, turn level 180deg. set
down in same spot, if bubble is in the same spot, it is level. If
bubble doesn't return to same place and there is no adjustment to
the vial you may as well throw it away. So if these Grizzly levels
are not adjustable I wouldn't spend my money on them. Duane (13258) |
| I check the block for level too.
set the level check it, swap ends check it, rotate 90 degrees and
check it, swap ends again. that eliminates the error from an unlevel
test stand. I don't seem to get is exactly 180 each time so I try to
remove the uncertainty in the reference first. I usually wear a pair
of gloves to prevent my hands from heating it up. These dang things
are sensitive. a little grease or oil will show up, so clean is
good. and grease it when you are done. no WD-40 for these things !
Dave (13259) |
| There is a
"machinist" level and also a "precision" level. Is the Machinist
level precise enough to truly level out a lathe or should one go
with the 'precision' level? The Starrett machinist level has an
adjustment, but I don't recall seeing one on their precision level.
Is there one? The Enco precision level I just bought has no
adjustment. It does have plastic finger-grabber spots for thermal
insulation. Duane, as a millwright, do you use the machinist or the
precision levels? I leveled my lathe with a borrowed Starrett
machinist level and then found it needed tweaking when I put a
precision on it. HTRAL also, I think, says to use a precision. Frank
(13260) |
| Frank, All I use is
a machinist level. You get a lathe leveled with a 98 machinist level
that is close enough for any thing you will ever do. Master
precision level has no adjustment, check price different and you can
under stand why. I have used a master level 3-4 times in all the
years I have spent in the trades. And they were owned by the
company I was working for, and they kept them in their safe. I'd
set the machines with my 98, and check with their master level,
never did change anything. A master level is good to .0003 98
machinist level is good to .0005, .0002 isn't worth the money. 98
machinist level is made to be carried in a mechanic's tool box. That
is why they are adjustable. I check mine before I use them. Level
your lathe bed at the head stock, across the bed, and the bed should
be level at the other end, across the bed. If not you have a twist
in the bed. The lathe can run up hill or down hill, lean toward you
or away from you and still do the job it was design to do. But if it
has a twist in that bed you play hell getting it to do anything
right. All set up on a lathe is done with indicators, so if the
center line through the head stock to the tail stock is parallel with
the bed you are in good shape. Duane
(13262) |
| Duane: Thank you
very much for the very clear explanation! I find it remarkable
(being an amateur) how sensitive precision is to twist in the bed!
thanks again Frank (13263) |
| Dave, Not trying to
seem a smart butt. I have never used a leveling block. If the
surface is level enough to keep the bubble within the lines you come
up with the same thing. Just make sure the bubbler returns to the
same line on the other end. I usually set mine on a surface and draw
a line around it. That way when I turn it I set it back down in the
same spot. Yes they are very sensitive. NO never use WD- 40 on them.
I did once, and it sat for quit a long time before I got back to it.
Toke me a half a day to clean it up. Never again. Duane
(13264) |
| Duane says if it
doesn't check when turned 180* then it's useless, throw it away.
This isn't so. As Dave says further down, you are going for
"flatness". The "level" condition is just the easiest way to do this
- at least with conventional instruments. A very sensitive level
that is off by a few thousandths per foot can still be used to bring
a lathe bed to a flat condition. If the bed tilts same way and by
the same amount on both ends then it is flat. That's all that's
needed. So just be sure you use it in the same orientation at both
ends and center the bubble. If anyone has a .0005 per foot level
that is not adjustable and is out of adjustment, I'll take it!
Please sent it my way. Paul A. (13267) |
| I checked the
Grizzly site and looked up the manual for their levels: it covered
both the 8" and 12". Had to print it to read as part of it was
upside down. The manual has the directions for the adjustment. You
pull off one of the end caps and there are two jam nuts that allow
it to be zeroed. It also states that the 12" model is .0005" / 10"
and the 8" model is .0002" / 10". I think they have it backwards?
Either way, that's good for the money. Other Grizzly products I have
bought were good. Not without problems, but good. Grizzly does
replace defective tools. I have two of their manual punch tools
because the first was shipped with two dies of one size and one
other size missing. Of course, that says nothing about these levels.
Paul A.
(13270) |
| Paul, you have a
valid point in what you are saying, orientation is key word. All I
am saying is that if you are going to spend the money, get one that
you can eliminate the orientation part of it. It will last you a
life time. Duane (13271) |
| Paul, thank you.
They are adjustable. They are worth the money. Starrett 8" will run
you $92.00. The Grizzly will save you money. If I didn't all ready
have mine, I would buy one myself. Duane
(13272) |
| I also have one of
the "made in china" Enco levels. If your is like mine, the vial
adjustment screw is under the white plug next to the vial window.
Rich (13273) |
| Duane, once you KNOW how to do things it is easy. for us
guys who will do this a few times in our lives, measuring 3 times
and cutting once is good practice. I inherited a 6 inch Starrett
from my uncle who got it from my grandfather. if one tries to check
it on a non-flat piece, and then tries to calibrate it to that, you
are asking for trouble. the cross check is just a quick means of
verifying you are on solid ground. I think I got my experience with
trying to level slate 3 piece pool tables. that is some work ! and
your trick of picking one end, leveling that, and making the rest
flat to that is sound. Dave (13276) |
Mine's a Polish one
and I don't think it has a adjustment (it isn't near me right now).
But it is right on the button and I'll be gentle with it. Will look
at it again to see if has an adjustment. I think it was about a
hundred bucks and well worth it. Frank
(13277) |
| When I set up my
9x48 SBL years ago I took a 6" wide by 52" long channel iron down to
the saw shop and had it surfaced planed. Cost me $60 but well worth
it. I then bolted the lathe to this, bolted legs( with levelers on
the bottom) onto the channel iron and then forgot about it. I
figured that all the lathes on ships, submarines, mobile trucks were
seldom operated on the level so I set mine up this way and the
Starrett level has sat in it's box ever since.
(13278) |
| A
ground surface is not automatically flat. the magnets they use to
hold the parts can and do take a warped metal part and make the
surfaces parallel. As soon as the magnet is released it buckles into
its natural shape. Most of this topic is just a technical exercise.
If you can make a flat facing cut, and can make round bars of equal
diameter, then you have no problem. but if you can't the first thing
to look at is the machine level. And those lathes on ships, they are
perfectly flat in dry-dock before they get to sea. riggers who
install that stuff know their stuff and do it well. Dave
(13287) |
| A ship in dry dock
is subject to pressure only from below, and a static pressure at
that. Once afloat, pressures are exerted from the submerged part of
the sides also, as well as the huge bending and flexing forces from
wave action, different weight distributions in loaded and light
condition etc. I doubt very much that something set up in dry dock
remains so for very long. Len (13290) |
| Which is why the SB
lathe cabinets made for shipboard use will ensure that portion of
the ships deck where thy are secured will not flex or stay anything
but straight and level to the lathe cabinet. When the lathe is
mounted to one of these it cannot help but be level, whatever level
is. JWE
(13291) |
| I put my car jack
under my lathe this evening and lifted it up about 15" at the head
end. I have a 24" piece of 2'round stock that I keep aside for
making sure the tail stock is dead center and all else is running
true. I took .002 off each end with the lathe in this raised
position. Everything ran the same and measured bang dead on. I
didn't run it long as I was a bit worried about the oil clutch not
getting the proper lube as (I had to turn it in much tighter) but I
ran it long enough to convince myself that if it had to, it could
run at any reasonable angle and still do it's job like if it were at
sea. One other reason I had the 6" channel angle surface planed and
mounted this way was for mobility. I have four little wheels that
fit up into the legs if need be and then I can move it anywhere in
the shop. Never did that yet but the option is there and without a
big re- leveling job. Be nice if there is a Navy machinist aboard
who could give us his views on this.
(13292) |
| In the interests of
harmony I'll not argue with this. Just register the fact that I
don't agree and leave it there. Len (13293) |
| While not being a
Navy Machinist , I was a Machinist Mate in the USN Machinist Mates
Run the engineering spaces on board ship . Machinery Repairmen run
the Lathes so on. However my Berthing compartment on our Destroyer
was about six feet from a really nice Monarch Lathe. Now I am going
to get a lot of responses to this as I am sure I am wrong, But it
does not make a hill of beans if the machine is level, it could be
mounted on the bulkhead . and a lot of time on that Destroyer it
probably was close ! The China Sea is a rough nasty place! What is
happening , there must not be any twist in the bed, That has to stay
even and the simplest way to check that is by leveling, now in my
short experience, I have had a couple lathes twist is the killer not
level. Dee ( 13296) |
| Dee You are 100%
correct in what you say here. the lathe only needs to be on a level
plane, not bubble weight. the lathe can be at a 45ø angle and as
long as there is no twist and an even plane, it will turn out metal
just fine. Clint (13297) |
| Dee, Clint, You
both have it right. As I said when all of this got started, level
has nothing to do with the lathe. As long as everything is parallel,
center line (through) the headstock to the tail stock is parallel
with the bed, you can stand the lathe on its tail and it will do the
job it was designed to do. All set up is done with indicators. Yes,
I like my lathe to be level, and a level is the quickest way to find
a twist if there is one. I am a master millwright, been at it for 35
yrs. There is still a lot of things I have yet to learn, but this is
not one of them. Duane (13298) |
| Not to beat a dead horse, but since
I have my whooping stick out.... people get paid big $$ to design
things for the military. What would it take for you to design a
mounting that did not flex, regardless of the thing it was bolted to
? and you are dead on about ships flexing. Read about the first
liberty ships. Seems the all welded construction ran into a tad bit
of a problem in cold water. Unless, of course, you don't think a
ship splitting in two and sinking is a problem. Dave (13302) |
| USN Machinist Mates
Run the engineering spaces on board ship . Machinery Repairmen run
the Lathes so on. from a really nice Monarch Lathe. wrong, But it
does not make a hill of beans if the machine is level, it could be
mounted on the bulkhead . and a lot of time on that Destroyer it
probably was close ! The China Sea is a rough nasty place! has to
stay even and the simplest way to check that is by leveling, now in
my short experience, I have had a couple lathes I think we all agree
that 'level' is the easiest way to set the lathe. once set, you
could put it on the orbiter, or a submarine, or put a jack under one
end and turn odd things.. the key is flat. level is just an easy
reference. Now if my berthing was 6 feet from the lathe, I would
darn sure clean the swarth off not only the lathe, but my bunk! (13308) |
| Well I think
everyone is right in their own way. The level thing is the only way
that SB can instruct how to set up a lathe without any twisting
forces and all mounting locations are equally holding the lathe, to
the bench, wall, or whatever. Someone in this group set me straight
last November on this issue. Each mount should support the lathe so
no twisting forces are applied to the bed. Dick (13320) |
| Checking the
leveling of the lathe |
| Leveling
with precision levels is OK for starters, but checking the level is
probably more important and seems rarely mentioned. In the "How to
run a lathe" by SB the is a section below the leveling part that
tells how to check the level and it works great. Basically it says to
chuck up a one inch or larger round bar that sticks out 4". I
prefer
a longer one. Undercut the center part leaving about 1/4 " lands at
each end. Then use very small cuts on the lands to avoid distortion.
Mike these diameters and if not alike change level till the are. When
you get done with that, check the tailstock for alignment with the
headstock using an indicator to correct it. Then you can run
centered pieces to check if its OK. Walt (13299) |
| Leveling
Question |
| I don't want to
start a debate on leveling but I do have a question. On the tail
stock end of my 10L are leveling screws. I have read SBL
Installation and Leveling of the Lathe and they talk about using
these for the final leveling adjustment but there must be something
I am missing. It seems to me that if you torque just the tail stock
end of the bed it's going to but a twist in it if the head stock end
is not changed in the same manner. ?? I am near the end of
rebuilding my 10L. I posted a photo of it in the second 10L folder
in the photo section labeled Dennis' 10L. I have completely redone
this machine to include all new wicking, headstock oilers, and
bearings in the quick change and under drive. Paint color is plan
old machine grey although I really liked the psychedelic pink one.
The original motor was shot so I just completed installing a new 1
HP 3 phase with a VFD. Man is that neat. I need to install the taper
attachment and I am ready to make chips. Dennis
(14127) |
| Dennis, The
"leveling" is really just getting any twist out of the bed. In most
cases you secure the headstock end to whatever degree of "level" is
important to you, then remove any twist over the length of the bed
by adjusting the tailstock end. If you prefer, think of it as
"untwisting" the bed. Unless the machine is mounted on a dead flat
surface and has zero error in the bed, you always have to do
something to get the bed into a single plane. Adjusting screws built
in just make the job a bit easier than having to play with shim
stock. You can level using "Rollie's Dad's Method", a precision test
bar, test cuts and tweak for no taper, a precision level, etc. In
any event, there are a bunch of ways to get to the desired result,
some expensive in money, some in time, and some fairly easy all
around. Stan (14128) |
| Stan, I think
I understand. If I level the cabinet with shims as best I can, say a
few thousands, and then place a precision level across the bed at
the head stock and take a reading and then move it to the tail stock
and use the screws to get the same reading there is no twist in the
bed. Right? (14129) |
| Dennis,
A qualified yes to this. If you place the level across the top of the
vees you may not get the desired results as these may be worn. Usually
you use a bit of ground stock or parallels to let the level rest on the
flat areas between the ways and clear the top of the vees. Machinists
levels have an adjustment to let you center the bubble. Provided you
don't turn the level end for end and use the same parallels in the same
configuration at each end of the bed you'll get very close. Final test
will be in the turning. Although I have levels for setting up machines
and have done setups this way, I usually just put a piece of ground
shaft in the chuck and indicate from the toolpost on center. As you
rotate through 360 degrees of rotation, you can get an average reading.
Move down the bed and repeat. The TIR will almost certainly increase,
but the average reading will remain the same IF the bed is not twisted.
If the average isn't the same, you can quickly make an adjustment and
repeat the process. This approach is much faster than using a level,
and avoids having to fanatically clean all the contact surfaces each
time you move the level. I will do a quick and dirty leveling first by
placing the level on the flat top surface of the crosslide and
traversing the bed. Because you rotate the spindle 360 degrees for each
reading to get an average value, the chuck doesn't have to be perfect.
The test bar can can even be slightly bent and it won't make a
difference. The important thing is that the test bar has to have a
smooth surface, and has to be thick enough not to sag under it's own
weight. Yes, everything sags some amount due to gravity, but a 1 1/2
inch bar doesn't do it enough to throw off the results. Once this is
done, you can indicate the tailstock to center, then do a few test
cuts. You know that the vast majority of any taper is a result of
tailstock offset as the spindle and bed centerlines are coaxial from
the work you did indicating the length of ground stock. Sometimes a
machine has a bit of wear, so that the "perfect" setup with a precision
level isn't so perfect. Using the method above lets you dial in the
best results for a not so new lathe. Stan (14132) |
| Leveling a
lathe |
| I have a 10K SB
that will very soon be ready to level. What would be the order of
operations in doing so. I assume that one must bolt the table to the
floor and level it as much as possible. After that I'm not sure of
the order. And if anyone can pass along any tips in leveling I would
sure appreciate it. Oh! I just got my machinists level. Vinny (14780) |
| Level across the
ways at the head so you see a specific reading on the level,
absolute level is not required. Then level across the ways at the
tail, make this equal to the head reading within .003/ft. The closer
the better. Then make a test cut on a piece and see that there is no
taper, this assumes the head and tailstock is in alignment. Twist in
the bed and tailstock misalignment are two things that will give you
a taper cut. Leveling takes out any twist introduced by an uneven
floor. JP (14781) |
| Leveling a
13x40 SB |
| I am in
the process of moving my lathe, and in re-leveling it I tried to use
the leveling screws in the tailstock end, without much success? How
do they work? there is an Allen head in both the front and back but
they do not do much? Must be stuck ? Or could there be another screw
under the first? I checked my parts book, and the manual but I
either missed it, or my operators book is for an older lathe? Dee (14849) |
| Before you
start, loosen the two screws at the TS end and back them out 1 turn.
Using a level rated to .003"/foot or better, rest it across the ways
at the spindle/chuck end and level the cabinet, bench or what ever.
Also level longitude as well. Once the above is settled and locked
down, place the level at the TS end and adjust the two screws
against the casting. If any adjustment to level is needed loosen one
and tighten the other always leaving them snug. When you are all
set, a final tightening of the set screws will do. Recheck in a
month and then every year. RichD (14850) |
| Alignment of
headstock to ways |
| Recently there has
been methods of way alignment using a bar in the chuck and an
indicator. I have used the South Bend recommended method that works
great. You do not have to have the lathe level, but good for
starters. Your chuck doesn't have to hold stock true. You do not
have to have an accurate dia. round to indicate on. You do not even
need an indicator. Here is the procedure. Chuck up a one inch dia.
or so machinable round steel in your chuck leaving at least 6"
sticking out. Leaving a short land near the chuck and another at the
outer end, machine a relief dia between. Take very little cuts of the
lands and measure the diameters. You then tweak the tailstock end of
the bed until you get the diameters similar. Easy and works great.
Walt (17735) |
| Lathe leveling |
| I've done some
searches and I've also read some archives on getting lathes sitting
"straight". What I'm looking for is an in-depth link to help me out
with getting my Hercus (SB9 Workshop C copy) in good alignment
order. I currently suffer from a 20thou misalignment between dead
centers when the tailstock is pushed up against the spindle dead
centre Tailstock extended and withdrawn). I cant work out if this is
bed warp, or one end or the other needs shimming. A Good step by
step would be much appreciated. Word of warning, I don't own a
quality level (engineers) so that the bed may be properly leveled.
Anyone lend a hand? Rat (17957) |
| There is a doc in
the files - 20 thou out is to far to tweak, you NEED to get a level,
beg, borrow or steal. Once you are close you can do the test bar
method, it's in HTRAL, and other books I'm sure. dp
(17958) |
| What direction is
the offset? Vertical ? You have a problem. Horizontal ? re set your
tail stock. The last owner may have offset it for some reason. (17959) |
| Garry From your
description I would say the tailstock has been set over for taper
turning and needs to be centered. Bed alignment is a concern when
the tailstock is centered at one end of the bed and misaligned at
the other. JWE (17960) |
| Suppose the offset is in the vertical, what is the cure? I have just
purchased a 10L, which seems to be in perfect condition, but the
tailstock came from another lathe and may not be is such good
condition. I will be setting the lathe up soon, and wonder what to
do if the tailstock isn't right. Dan (17963) |
| William,
Unfortunately the tailstock is sitting low. This has two or three
possibilities; bent/unleveled bed, Headstock too high, tailstock too
low. When the tailstock is extended, the measurement stays about the
same (visually) so with that extra 3 inches distance, the curvature
of the bed should have made an effect. I'm hoping its just a shim
exercise. Rat (17964) |
| JWE, As per
previous post, its not a set over (horizontal - that I would have
worked out fairly quick even in my n00b status). Its low by not
much, but too much.
(17966) |
| Garry Then its
break out the shim stock and put the right amount equally between
the two casting halves front and rear. JWE (17975) |
| I'll level the
bed first see what happens, worst outcome is that I have a level
bed, one less variable. Sound about right? Rat (17978) |
| Take a look at
14132. I have used this procedure. It does not require a level. It
took a lot of the miss alignment out of my tailstock. Jim B.
(17985) |
| I know that a lot
more of the experienced users have ways of dealing with this
problem, but Moltrecht in "Machine Shop Practice" vol 1, page 231,
says that "vertical alignment is not as critical when turning' and
goes on to explain that on a one inch diameter workpiece will have an
error of .001 if the tailstock is vertically misaligned by .022 of
an inch, and .045 of an inch for a 4 inch diameter workpiece. This
may be of some comfort to you guys out there who have machines that
are built up from scrap machines and used parts not original to the
lathe. I invite some of our more experienced members to explain why
this vertical alignment explanation makes sense or if they have
heard of this idea! Bill (17987) |
| In no way do I
consider my self experienced. However this is simple geometry If the
tail stock is 0.022 to the left of right the tool will cut 0.022
deeper or 0.022 less deep. If the tailstock is up or down 0.022 then
the error is dependent on the diameter of the piece. With a 1" rod
and a tailstock 0.022 high the tool post is, in effect, down 0.022.
However the angle the tool makes to the center of the work piece is
atan(0.022/0.5) = 2.5 degrees. The difference in the radius is
0.5*cos(2.5) = 0.5*.999=0.4995 or .001 on the diameter. Jim
B. (17988) |
| I agree with your
math etc. However, this will not help drilling or reaming a hole. If
the tail stock is found to be .020 low after all else checks out it
is going to have to be shimmed or built up in some fashion to align
it with the head stock. Bruce (18002) |
| I also agree to
that. I was just answering the question of why the tail stock being
up or down has less effect on TURNING A DIAMETER, then if it is
right or left. Also note that if you are turning a small diameter
rod (say 1/8) the offset effect will be much more severe. Jim B.
(18004) |
| On the level |
| What kind of prices are
reasonable for a machinist's level? I see them in catalogs for $80
up to thousands. I see some listings on ebay that all have six days
left on the auction today a local machine tool place said they'd
rent me one for $50, which seemed too high. Any recommendations on
buy vs. rent, brand, length, type, calibration, etc? Shane (18083) |
| I've seen them for
$50 or less on E-Bay. Of course, most are used. But then so is that
rental one for $50. One nice thing about this kind of level is that
it is usually adjustable so if the vial is unbroken, it can usually
be adjusted to indicate an accurate level. Another nice thing is
that a lathe doesn't have to be dead level, just at the exact SAME
angle from one end to the other. So it's the sensitivity of the
level that counts, not it's ability to bring it dead level.
Accuracy. As near as I can tell, the ones in the $80 to $190 range
are usually 0.005" per foot while the better master levels are
usually above $300 and are about 0.0005" or 0.0007" per foot. That
seems to be the range. If you are doing a short lathe and are using
shims, there is little reason to get the 0.0005"/ft variety as you
can not get shims to make that fine of an adjustment. Also worn ways
with dings in them will introduce more error than that. It would be
nice to have a middle of the road level at about 0.002 or 0.001"
in/ft but no one seems to make them. If you have a three foot or
longer lathe or are using leveling screws and have a dead solid
mount, then go for it. I have seen some imports with master level
type specs that were under $100 but ..... If you are interested,
check out Grizzly. I leveled my SB9 with the level in a Starrett
planner and shaper height gauge and with a 1/8" ball bearing, first
on a concave lens and then on an optically flat glass. I set up
everything on the cross slide to avoid the dings in the tops of the
ways. Don't have a master level to check with but I haven't detected
any problems yet. Paul A. (18086) |
| There was a lot of
discussion about this several months ago. Search the archives. One
conclusion, not without some controversy, was that the ENCO level at
$99 (on sale) was a reasonable compromise. I have been looking on
e-bay and find the ones I want tend to go for $100 to $200. Jim
B. (18087) |
| I have seen them go
much cheaper than that on ebay. I bought a 12" Fowler master level
for $50. A day later, a Japanese (metric calibration), one I had
been watching went for $17. (18088) |
| I would suggest
that you buy a level. new $100 from Enco is decent level. I think
it's phase 2 brand. make sure it's adjustable! learn how to adjust
it. you will use a level more than twice in your life. I check
level/twist regularly, and esp when doing critical work. Metric
level would also be ok. btw: what were the graduations like? $50
rental is obnoxious. I gladly lend my level to a couple of others in
the area who I know can't afford one. dennis
(18089) |
| Alright I am going
back to looking. I had given up. Perhaps the difference is in the
length of the level. Some place, I think HTRAL, but I am not sure, I
read that you needed a 12" level. All of those seem to be around
$100. Jim B. (18090) |
| IIRC, it worked out
to about 15% more sensitive per division, but I didn't get to see
the divisions. I suspect it was the common 0.0005" per 10" with
different markings. (18094) |
| It won't help if it
is longer the the area you have to set it on. Grizzly has an 8" one
for $59.95 in their catalog, H2682. (18095) |
| You can use a 8",
6", or 4". Put a 2' carpenters level across the ways and set the
shorter level on it. Duane (18097) |
| I bought one of
these $99. Enco levels a year or so ago and it is very nice.
Machinery does get out of level and light lathes are very sensitive.
I check my 10K frequently. Only negative tot he Enco is that I think
the bottom is not hard, so a bit of care is needed. But it is well
worth it. And it arrives in perfect condition, as described, 2 days
after placing order. Frank
(18102) |
| I really doubt this
opinion will be held in high esteem but I'm about to sell my Starrett
levels on Ebay. I use a 6" digital level exclusively now. Measures
to .1 of a degree . Much of the work that I do is verification of
level (i.e. is the work piece level to the table) and confirmation of
angles (which a bubble level won't do). Like those black rubber
multi function Casio's that keeps better time than my Rolex a 100.00
plastic digital level is a bit of modern technology that (for me) is
far better than the real thing (although I will continue to wear the
Rolex). (18103) |
| Since I'm not made
of money, I use the line level that came in the mail as a thank you
gift. It is from the now dead WoodWorkers Warehouse. Instead of
putting a level on a level, I use a foot long piece of ground stock
laid across the ways. Ron
(18104) |
| I
am completely rebuilding my 1936 9C including scraping in
everything. I finally bought a master precision level about two
months ago from Wholesale Tool for $70 on sale. It's great and maybe
too sensitive (0.0005" per 10") as any little speck of dirt affects
repeatability. But it works. I set it on ACCURATE parallels that
I've miked for size. I've found that the set up needs to be about
plus or minus one 10th for the level to be really useful. I have a
Starrett 8" machinist level which has published specs of 0.005" per
8". I found it to be largely useless for accurate scraping for
realigning purposes but is good for rough leveling. BTW, the comment
previously about the lathe not needing to be dead level is
absolutely correct - just no twist. The import levels do have a soft
bottom - be careful of burrs. Ed (18140) |
| Boy I can't believe
this. I have set many a lathe, mill, and precision machines for 40
yrs with Starrett machinist levels, all of them operated within
spec., and now I fined out that Starrett machinist levels are largely
useless. There must be a lot of master mechanics out there.
DM (18145) |
| Thanks for the tip.
They are still on sale. Got one. Jim B. (18146) |
| Ed; eng4turns
wrote: Sounds like a nice job! Not sure I'd trust the areas between
the ways to be good to better than a thou or so, unless you scraped
them as an primary reference surface for further work. Easier to
match grind a pair of parallels on a surface grinder than to find
pairs that match to better than a tenth I bet, although the ones
that I've bought new as pairs seem pretty close. I've got some one
inch class 2 Jo blocks that I use just for machine setups on
occasion, that way I know I can ignore variation between them. Might
sound like a mortal sin, but hey, they were on sale for a buck a
piece and I keep them separate from my "good" blocks! To each their
own. On an older machine I prefer to dial with with a test bar. This
allows you to simply get in the ballpark for level (yes, I do mean
TWIST, not "level"), then dial in the lathe bed in a way that will
compensate for minor wear in the saddle or other places such as a
slightly off axis spindle. The joys of old machines eh? I think the
Starrett is 0.005/ft per graduation rather than per 8 inches, at
least that was the published spec on mine. Works well enough as you
can set the bubble to just kiss a graduation line and match the
setting on the far end of the bed. I do like a mill table level to a
thou per foot or so, as it allows the use of a level for some
oddball setups that otherwise could be a bear to dial in with
indicators. Keeps end mills from rolling off the table too... Or
maybe I'm misunderstanding the intent here, and the leveling you are
referring to here is the initial flattening of a surface prior to
final scraping with straight edges and spotting blue? I've slid
levels down lathe beds to check for bowing more than once. No
arguments there! Lord knows we've been through enough rehashes and
debates about level and what it really means around here :-) Just do
a search of the message archive and prepare to fall asleep or have
some laughs. The Starrett mechanics levels (0.005/ft) are also soft,
having C.I. bodies. Stan
(18153) |
| Stan, thanks for
the comprehensive reply. As you stated below, this is not strictly a
leveling job but rather is a complete rebuild of all the ways from a
condition where there was 0.025" wear in front of the chuck and
ridges all up and down the v-ways. The only good spots were under
the headstock and the tailstock end was marginal. Rechecking the
Starrett website, the No.98 Machinist's level has specs of
"approximately 80 to 90 seconds" (0.005") per foot per division. The
No. 199 Master Precision Level has 10 second accuracy (0.0005") per
foot per division. I checked my import 10" master precision level on
the surface plate with a 5/10ths feeler under one end and got one
division movement of the bubble. When scraping, I'm getting about
one-half division movement of the bubble per scraping cycle. For
small lathes and this kind of work, I think you need the more
sensitive level. BTW, this project caused me to finally crack open
the Connelly book I bought 15 years ago and it's a gem. My fingers
are permanently stained from Prussian blue.
(18201) |
| Leveling With
a transit |
| I own a K E Paragon
Engineer's Transit. The grads on the level are 20 seconds. If the
bubble is half a grad off you could easily estimate to 10 seconds. I
do not own a machinist's lever and would like to use my transit to
level my lathe. Could some give me a list of steps to go through and
explain what to do? Gary P.
(18635) |
| Leveling is used to
remove bed twist from mounting the lathe to the floor. The headstock
and tailstock plane should be less than .003"/ft relative to each
other, absolute level is not critical. Not sure if you can pick up
the 4 points of the ways accurately enough with a transit. You can
get a made in Poland machinery level from Enco for under $100
accurate to .001"/ft. JP (18637) |
| Actually,
most are rated at 0.0005" per 10", and you can also get one from us
for $79. Scott Logan (18638) |
| If my math is
correct 10 seconds is 0.001" per foot. (10/(60*60))*(2*pi/360)*12 =
0.0011 (sin of small angle =tan of small angle = angle in radians)
Please excuse spelling. No checker on Comcast mail (Usually use
Outlook) You need to establish a reference as close to the head
stock as possible. Make sure the ways do not have dings or crud or
things which will cause the level to be raised at one end of the
other or tilted. Mark one end of the level. Do not swap ends. Marked
end toward the front or rear ALWAYS. If the level does not fit
across the ways find a piece of ground stock to span the ways. Mark
one end. Same thing. (the stock may be tapered) Also mark where the
ground stock touches the ways. (it may not have a uniform taper)
Level the lathe, front to back, at least enough to get the bubble to
a reference mark. Move the level to the tail stock end. Place the
level/groundstock combination in a position as close as it was when
you set the headstock as is possible. If you remove the tailstock
the ways may be in better shape. Shim the tailstock end of the lathe
ONLY until the bubble returns to the same mark as it was when you
were at the headstock end. Go back and repeat the process until it
stabilizes. The lathe does not need to be perfectly level front ot
back or side to side. There is a line of thinking which states that
the ways are a bad place to do this because of ware. If you have
other ground or scraped surfaces which are not dinged and can be
used and if you have a pair of good parallels this might be a better
approach. The parallels doe not have to be perfect if they are
always in the same relative place front to back and if the level is
in the same place front to back AND left to right.
Jim B.
(18640) |
| I own a Paragon
also, auto dumpy and wye levels, some theodolites as well as a Wild
Heerbrugg 1 second gun. My advise is to buy a machine bubble level.
I wouldn't consider turning a one man job into the two man operation
that it would become. A 12" level cost me 80 on Ebay and well worth
it. You'd be taking shots all day and you'd probably end up bumping
the gun. Ultimately the proof of the job is in the turning accuracy.
I only use transits to level BIG floor and plant process equipment
that you can't lay a level on. When there is something as convenient
as a ground bed, I don't think you can beat a level for ease over
the 4' you're looking at. My 2 cents. Andy
(18645) |
| Gary You've got a
lot of answers that don't fit your question. To do this you have to
have a height stick that you can set on the flat ways of the
machine, now I'm assuming that your machine has a flat way both
front and rear. The height stick needs to be squared on the end
sitting the machine. On the height stick affix a ruler with finest
graduations you have. Make the height stick so that a convenient mark
is about eyeball height. Set you transit up at the end of the
machine and focus in on a good mark on the height stick. Now take a
reading at each adjustment leg. Find the high leg and then shim up
the other legs so that the reading on the height stick is the same
at each leg. If you split the line on the rule you will be within a
thou. You are now as level as the equipment you have will get you.
During this process do not move the transit, your relying on it
staying at the same height. You will have to rotate the head to hit
the different points that the height stick has to set, just don't
move the base. If your instrument is not level then the lathe will
not be level, but it will still be straight. This goes back to old
argument that lathes work on ships and they're not level. True, but
this method will work on a ship, as long as the transit is nailed to
the floor and rocks along with the ship. (18714) |
| Gary, I live in
Northern VA. If you are near by I'd be glad to assist. I have a
Starrett master precision level. It is exactly what you need. As
mentioned before level is not the most important aspect (see
operation on a ship) However ALIGNMENT between the head and tail
stock center is. Adjusting the bed so it has no twist and the
centers align will give the best results. Granted having the lather
level facilitates that greatly. Eric (18715) |
| Thanks for the
offer Hoffmeyer, however I am over a 1000 mile away from you. Gary
P. (18716) |
| Gary, Where are you
located, I am in NH and also have a level. JP (18725) |
| It seems to me that you (we) are making
this more of a problem than it is. If I may: Why not buy a level? A
good one and then (it would seem to me) the problem would be
over. This may seem like an over simplified solution but, one that
will work. Mike (18728) |
| I have done some
experiments with a transit last year. It was more to check the
accuracy of the tailstock slide than anything else. I had a metal
plate that I machined and fitted by hand scraping in the area of the
headstock on the bed. I mounted the transit on it and checked for
the motion of the bubble on the level. I was sliding the plate on
the tailstock slide and checked variations. It was sensitive enough
to see winding on the tailstock slides. This told me that I still
have work to do on the tailstock slides before I use them as
reference for the re-conditioning of the inverted V ways. I will try
to use the transit optical sight reading a machinist ruler over a
long distance (using trigonometry) in order to measure bed
inaccuracies after the scraping operation Last summer I bought a
precision level (made in China for $85 CDN) that I will use for
leveling the lathe bed before I start the planning/scraping operation
on the inverted V ways. The transit level would allow to see if the
the bed is in the same plane, but not to level it. Guy (18729) |
| If I may: Why not buy a level? A good one and
then (it would seem to me) the problem would be over. I just moved my
10K from my old shop to my new shop. Since I had it completely
rebuilt, I would like to get the most accuracy out of it. I have a
precision level, so I should be in fine shape. I was just wondering
if there is a specific order in which to undertake the leveling
process for best results. Bill (18738) |
| Headstock
alignment 9" Model A |
| I took the
headstock off my SB today, as I needed to remove the gear box and
the screws connecting the gearbox to the lathe bed were partially
hidden by the headstock. I was expecting to find some shim stock
under the headstock to allow for any machining errors in the bed
ways and to align the headstock to the bed. I did not find any. Is
this right? I have not yet measured the accuracy of the headstock
relative to the ways, but in the past I never had any real problems.
I guess this is something that I will do now, but is this something
I should be concerned about? Should there have been some shim stock
there? Mark (19194) |
| I pulled the
headstock off of my heavy 10 and there were no shims there. I could
tell it was the first time it had been removed from the bed.
Paul (19195) |
| There should not be
ANY shim stock under there. the headstock is precision scraped to
align to the bed. the are in effect a matched pair. Let me repeat so
it is absolutely clear: NO SHIMS UNDER THE HEADSTOCK if you find
shims under there beware. something is not right. Either some
ham-fisted amateur (and I mean that in the nicest way) tried to
'fix' it or something else was not right. Manuf process, especially
on south bends, the headstock is machined, the bed machined and then
the two are scraped together for bearing and for alignment as a
unit. I don't think anyone has scientifically compared headstocks in
their measurements. I know people swap headstocks and beds all the
time thinking that 'parts is parts' but the accuracy of the parts
machine is not the same as factory mated pair. Remember we are
talking about the reference surfaces that make these machines work.
Find a copy of machine tool rebuilding by connolly. There was a
group buy on the HSM boards a while back. it is a great read.
Dennis( 19196) |
| Mark, There
shouldn't be any shim stock between the head and the bed. On the
older split bronze bearing heads, you sometimes find that someone
has added shims. Not because this is the correct fix, but because
they didn't understand (or have the patience) how to shim the
bearings to compensate for normal wear. So... No shims tends to mean
no cobbled up fixes done by well intentioned amateurs or shoddy
"rebuilders." Stan (19198) |
| This is the original headstock as shipped and it has never
been removed. I had to remove it to get access to the gearbox. Other
than oil and grease over 50 years of use, I can't see that it has
ever been removed. I had seen a previous job where a replacement
headstock was used and it was shimmed all over the place. Was just
wondering? Thanks for your help. If I don't have to start shimming
it, I won't. Will make my life a lot easier. And I can get this baby
back together again. Mark
(19202) |
| Leveling
question, 9" model A |
| I am
setting up my 9" model A. It came bolted to what I believe to be a
factory bench --made of heavy gauge steel sheet and nicely welded, a
single drawer for tooling. Roughly rectangular steel sheet legs as
well. There is a nice factory looking mount that is bolted to the
rear of the bench for the horizontal drive. I am working on a set-up
that will be secure and was thinking about bolting the bench to the
floor, after reasonable leveling, and then doing final leveling when
attaching the lathe to the bench. But since this bench is not
terribly rigid, would it be reasonable to either set the lathe on
the bench (no bolt down) or bolt the lathe bed to some thick plywood
and allow it to "float", unconnected to the bench. Perhaps another
possibility is to mount the lathe legs to rubber grommets to allow
for some float. Reason: For space considerations, I could use the
ability to mount casters on the bench and wheel the lathe away when
not in use. David
(20202) |
| There are a
couple schools of thought wrt mounting lathes: rigid and base
isolation. I am of the rigid camp because these lathes ARE NOT that
rigid and are quite flexible. I recommend that you either set
anchors or use RIGID feet. the other group believes in rubber pads
under the feet to take out any vibration, and while they do remove
vibration, they instantaneously make the machine out of level. If
you have vibration when the motor is running, there are other issues
to be addressed. It is not clear if the top is rigid enough from
your description. Is the sheet steel top reinforced in the are where
the foot bolts to or will the steel sheet oilcan where its attached
to? try this for cheap leveling bolts: hardened automotive studs,
anywhere from 2-4" long. use a nut and washer under the leg and
preferable on top of the leg. Use a serrated face flange nut for the
foot. That nut has enough bite into the concrete to keep it from
moving and a larger bearing area. Casters will drive you nuts in the
end. Many have tried them. they will develop flat spots over time
and you will end up leveling the lathe often. dennis
(20203) |
| Alignment
troubles |
| I am
doing something wrong. I got my heavy 10 - cabinet version situated
in the garage and am trying to use Rollie's Dad's method of get it
lined up. I put a 1" drill rod in a 3 Jaw chuck, measure the high
and low points at the chuck (1 thou) and again about 2 ft from the
head (12 thou). To make a long story a little shorter - with 4
mounting bolts loose, no matter which corner I shim up (used a 14
gauge washer at one point) there is no difference in the readings. I
concluded I must be doing something wrong! Paul+
(20329) |
| Borrow or buy a
precision level and level your bed. Enco has them for about $100.
and I believe Scott Logan also sells them. But beware - the Enco
ones have unhardened bottoms. Otherwise they are quite good. Frank
(20330) |
| Level is nice but
not important. Yup. you heard it. Is a lathe on board a ship level?
No, ...But it is aligned. Is the bed twisted? Is the tail stock
cocked off to one side? Note on the end of the bed there is a
leveling (alignment) screw. You might check that. Sure, having the
lathe level is an excellent starting point for it provides a good
reference...but head stock to tail stock ALIGNMENT is the key. Eric (20331) |
| Just where are you
shimming? When you say 4 mounting bolts, it sounds like the cabinet
base. The cabinet is quite ridged so shimming it won't twist the bed
much if at all. Also, after shimming, you need to tighten the bolt
before measuring. The heavy 10 has a twist adjustment in the foot of
the bed at the tail stock end. This is typically covered with
several layers of paint on used lathes. (20333) |
| You cant have the
mounting bolts loose. You must tighten the two on the head stock.
Loosen the two near the tail stock. Shim one (or both) and then
tighten the tailstock bolts. All bolts must be tight. Jim B. (20335) |
| Ed, I was afraid
someone would say "tighten the bolts" (Jim B. said so too, so it
must be true). Oh, to have arms 2 inches longer - or wife or child
that cares about lathe alignment g There is a set screw on the tail
stock end labeled "height adjustment" (I think - I'm at the office
avoiding work now). And it makes sense to use this to correct for
vertical alignment. Is there really another to adjust for twist? I
am trying to get the horizontal alignment dialed in first. Paul+ (20337) |
| Its worse than that
on a ship you can't maintain alignment worth a darn either. We could
mount a mag base indicator on the tailstock and watch the tailstock
shift in relation to the spindle as the cranes moved items (Polaris
missiles are heavy). Mark (20339) |
| Absolutely correct!
However, we are not on board ship and the easiest way (in my
opinion) to set up a lathe is to level it with a precision level and
get the last little tweaking done with the leveling screw near the
tailstock. If you do this you have no twist to the bed which is
important. Then align the headstock/tailstock centers. There is no
single key - the bed cannot be twisted and the headstock and
tailstock axes must line up. Frank ( 20342) |
| I confess to being dense I am still trying to align my
SB heavy 10 full cabinet. The cabinet is on the garage floor and
"reasonably" level (carpenter's level). I am trying Rollie's Dad's
method of alignment. With the lathe pedestals firmly bolted to the
cabinet I get 2 thou difference in high and low at the chuck on a 1"
drill rod. At the tail stock end the difference is 12 thou. I have
alternately shimmed the pedestal at every corner and tightened down
the bed in order to get any change. No matter, the differences
always remain the same. This make no sense to me. More data: There
seems to be only one leveling screw - in the front on the tail stock
end. I think I have tried all the permutations of mounting bolts
tight/loose, leveling screw tight/loose, but it's possible I passed
by the correct way. It seems to me - but doesn't change anything - I
should loosen the pedestal bolt in one corner, shim that corner,
tighten that corner up and measure. What I haven't tried is shimming
the bed where it is attached to the pedestal - is this what I ought
to be doing? Also, at this point I don't want to spend the money on
a machinist level when nothing I do seems to effect the twist in the
bed. Paul+ (20360) |
| Paul, It is
possible that the bed has a permanent twist and you are twisting the
cabinet to conform to it with the shims. Is the cabinet bolted to a
concrete floor? Does this lathe have the adjustment screws at the
right end (the bed foot pivots on a large pin)? RichD (20361) |
Honestly, I don't
care much for the method. I could never get my lathe as accurate
with it than with a level. Tail stock end. Is this a heavy 10 or
light 10? there should be two. The two effectively trap the spud in
the foot in the tailstock. if you can not see a hole it could be crudded over/painted over.
Look on the exact opposite side of the
base of the shoe from the one you see. The two screws work together.
You could push the spud with only one screw, but it has to be on the
high side of the bed. You use one screw to push and the other to
lock into place. Screw ---- | spud | ----- screw you will be able to
twist the bed in some manner, shape or form. You really need to get
you hands on a level. beg, borrow or steal one. you will need a
level more than once in your machining adventures. Even the $75
import ones from the usual places are good enough to do the job. dennis
(20363) |
| RichD Dennis, Thank
you for the good information. The lathe is a 10 Heavy. I went back
looking for the back side (right side) adjustment screw and this
time found it - it took a flash light and some poking about but
there it was (duh). So I am about to have another go at it. I hear
what you are saying about the level and "sometime" I'll get one -
for now I would settle for getting "kind of close" - I would feel
like I was making progress. Plus, I could say to SWMBO - "I'm kind
of close now, but I need a level to really dial it in" G used tool
store 50 miles from here - they had a Starrett 12" for $125 - but the
level had no bubble in it! BTW, it is not bolted to the floor. How
important is it? Paul+
(20366) |
| You are trying to
twist, or actually untwist, the bed in this alignment procedure.
The strain is working against the stand. If the stand is free to
twist as you try to untwist the bed, it may, and if so, the bed may
not move. If the stand is rigid enough, more ridged than the bed,
then you don't need to bolt it to the floor. If the stand is less
rigid that the bed you do need to bolt it down. I have a 9" the
stand is a weldment of two 6" Steel channels, open end welded to
open end to from a box. This has similar welments at right angles
extending backward about 12" There are 4 angle iron feet just under
the bed attachments and every thing is cross braced with angle iron.
It is very rigid. It is not bolted down. Almost anything less might
need to be bolted. Jim B. (20367) |
| It is
with great embarrassment that I make the following confession. For
days I subjected my poor old lathe to all manner of shimming and
questioning of its parentage while I MISAPPLIED Rollie's Dad's
method. It's a wonder I can tell a positive(+) from a negative (-)
screwdriver. After finding both leveling screws, fooling with both
of them, watching the dial move while I made adjustments and then
getting the same difference in high and low readings, I just sat
down and repeated the mantra, "I'm doing something wrong, I'm doing
something wrong..." The light came on and I realized all I was doing
was reading the runout on the chuck and bar and NOT doing the
correct math (math!?! HA! arithmetic!) for Rollie's Dad's method.
Twenty minutes later, it was as dead on as I can make. Paul+
(20374) |
| Confession is good
for the soul. Congratulations. I feel a need to aggravate myself
this day and since I don't know Rollie or his dad would you be so
kind as to direct me to their "method"? Bob (20413) |
| Leveling a
Newer Heavy 10 |
| My newer Heavy 10
(1975) has leveling screws in the front and rear of the pedestal
under the tail stock end of the bed. There is a gap of about 1/8
inch between the pedestal and the bed, and I need to lower that end
of the bed to get it level. I have backed out both screws but there
is no change in the level. Can anyone tell me how these screws are
supposed to work? I suspect they might bear against wedges that
might be frozen. Is there a procedure for spreading them to lower
the bed? Alan M.
(20920) |
| I can't answer
for the H10 but on the 9" the leveling screws do not raise and lower
the pedestal. If anything they can be used to impart a twist to the
bed so the head and tail end of the bed are in the same plane. The
pedestals are fastened firmly to the table and then the screws are
adjusted the tailstock of the bed so it is level from front to back.
If I understand you correctly you are trying to get the bed level
from one end to the other. This is not really necessary as all you
need to make sure that the ways are in the same plane. Using a level
"across" the ways is one way to measure any difference due to twist
in the bed. If you want to level the bed from end to end you will
have to shim up one of the pedestals. John (20923) |
| I have a Heavy 10
(1979 built). The 2 screws you mention are for leveling the bed by
removing any twist from it. They will not lower the bed in any way
even if removed. The bed pivots on a pin which goes all the way thru
the pedestal. The 2 screws push against the bed so that you can
rotate the bed around the axis of the pin. Once you have leveled the
bed by adjusting the screws they both are tightened to hold the bed
in level. It is important that the headstock and tailstock be level
in relationship to each other. Where or not the whole machine is
level or not in not that important. I installed cushioned leveling
pads on my lathe. This allowed me to level the cabinet first and
compensate for any non flat areas that the lathe sat on. Ed (20925) |
| The old carpenter's
trick for detecting twist is to lay two straight edges across the
work (or bed in this case) as far apart as possible, and eye across
them. It sounds very crude, but it's amazing how easy it is to see
the slightest of twist this way. Accuracy is better if the straight
edges are fairly long as this magnifies the twist. Carpenters here
call them "winding rods". Len
(20932) |
| Alan, I am in
Burke, VA and if you are near by would be glad to help set up your
lathe. I have all the necessary equipment free of charge. We have
a user group here called CAMS (Chesapeake Area Machinists Society)
and we help each other out a lot. Where are you located? Eric
(20934) |
| Ed, What did you
use for pads? Brian (20949) |
| Brian, I used
machinery leveling mounts. ENCO or MSC or a great deal of others
sell these mounts. They are available in lots of different sizes
depending on the weight of the machine you are leveling. They have a
rubber base with steel inserts with threaded studs. These are
adjustable to allow you to level your machine. Having just looked at
my Enco catalog, I see them in a lot of different price ranges. Go
with the high quality ones such as made by MASON. They are about 23
bucks each. When using these on my lathe, the idea was to evenly
distribute the weight of the machine over the 4 leveling mounts and
thus not put the cabinet in any sort of bind. Another advantage of
these mounts is they help reduce vibration and also raise the height
of the lathe about an inch which I liked. Don't worry about getting
the cabinet part of your lathe exactly level. Unless the cabinet
itself is perfectly flat and square and the floor you are putting it
on is also exactly flat and level this may not be possible.
Ed (20952) |
| Heavy 10 Bed
Leveling Screw |
| Anyone out there
know how the bed leveling screw located on the tailstock end of the
bed works. It looks like a simple set screw, but when loosened there
is no noticeable movement. Is it just a lock screw for another set
of leveling screws that I have no yet found. (21597) |
| There are
TWO screws. Look on the rear side. Loosen one, Tighten the other to
twist the bed. When you are finished adjusting they should both be
tight. RichD (21598) |
| It has a loosen
tighten set up to tweak the bed if it needs a little twist taken out
or put in depending on how you look at it. I have never needed to
use the feature all the SouthBends I have owned about 8 or 10 have
leveled end to end and front to rear fine and front to rear end to
end read the same. If your machine had been years in a bind I think
you could get some warp that you would use this on. Use a good foot long level with fine reading to set it up for lots
less aggravation later on. Grumpy (21603) |
| Is there another
screw opposite on the back side so you can loosen one and tighten
the other? DVC (21606) |
| Headstock
alignment |
| I had my bed reground, saddle refitted, all of
that. I talked with the guy who did the work when I picked
everything up and apparently the headstock that came with my lathe
has been munged up a bit. He said someone had done a poor scraping
job on it and it no longer sits square on the bed. I looked at it
and he was right. Someone had done a real job on it. Anyway, he told
me I could get it lined up correctly just by shimming it. He said I
should chuck up a piece of drill rod in a 4 jaw chuck. He told me to
then set up two indicators on my saddle - one that touches down on
the top of the drill rod and one pressing against the side. Then I
should just shim it in the appropriate places until the indicators
run within .001 over 6" along the top and across the side. OK, so I
bought a piece of 3/4" drill rod. My 4-jaw is on order so I went
ahead and chucked it up in my 3-jaw. I was just trying to get it
aligned so my indicator along the top was within .001 over the
approximately 6" that I had sticking out of the chuck. I got it to
well under .001 but when I turned the chuck about 1/3 of the way and
re-ran it along the top, there was about a .004 difference. Now, I
can understand that the chuck will not center the piece perfectly,
but it should always turn in the same line shouldn't it? I mean, if
the piece is sticking out exactly parallel to the bed, it should
always be parallel to the bed (assuming the piece is perfectly
round). Or is it that any difference in the headstocks front/back
alignment is causing some kind of wobble when I indicate side to
side. Is it a problem with the chuck, with the drill rod, or with
me? Kevin (22407) |
| I mean, if the
piece is And assuming the jaws of the chuck are perfectly axial to
the bed. Unless your chuck jaws have been reground on the lathe this
may not be true. I have a BUCK SetTrue I got off e-bay. It isn't so.
It would be better if you held the ground rod in a collet. Jim
B . (22408) |
| All three 1 the
chuck is probably made in china junk 2 drill rod is raw stock not an
alignment bar 3 you for not reading HTRAL. The correct alignment
procedure uses a test bar with a morse taper end. You can cheat a
little here by using a morse taper extension socket. You might even
get by with one made in china on the cheap. This aligns to the
spindle bore which is a close tolerance machining and eliminates any
oddities from a chuck. This assumes a 3MT bore as is on a 9 and 10K
lathe, otherwise you get a test bar made. JP (22409) |
| He did say that -
collets would be best. I'm afraid I don't have any collets or closers
for this lathe. Will my new 4-jaw be better? It is one of the
inexpensive ones. And even then, that seems like a lot of error even
for a 3-jaw chuck. Should I regrind the jaws if I ever get the
headstock aligned? The 3-jaw is a rohm and it has the reversible
jaws. -Kevin (22410) |
| I have read HTRAL
several times but not recently. I'll read it again. I know about the
test bar but that method would seem to tell me if it is out of
alignment but wouldn't indicate which direction(s) the headstock was
out of alignment, right? I mean just because I'm turning a taper
doesn't tell me whether the headstock is out front to back or top to
bottom. Kevin (22411) |
| 1) Where are you
located? 2) Is this a 9" or 10k or a bigger lathe 3) JP has a good
point. A MT adapter isn't expensive. Jim B.(22412) |
| Kevin, Stop, take a
deep breath and think. You have to eliminate all extraneous error
from a chuck, their jaws and any adapter in between and from any
piece you stick into the jaws. If you have a 9 or 10K lathe then
there is a 3MT bore in the spindle. This bore is extremely accurate
and should be used for alignment. Go to
www.use-enco.com page 302
and look at the morse taper extension sockets. Part number 274-8533
34 and 35 If you put one of these hardened and ground sockets into
the spindle taper then you have a very accurate alignment post
sticking out that you can then measure to, up and down and front to
back. Turning the spindle with this should make absolutely no
measurable difference. JP (22413) |
| Jim- I'm in
Indianapolis. The lathe is a Heavy 10. I will look into the MT
adapter. Kevin (22414) |
| Kevin, The Heavy 10
has a proprietary Southbend taper. You will need a morse taper
adapter from LeBlond for $65 plus the extension socket. Check with
Rose Marvin at Parts Works, she may be able to get the adapter for
you a but more reasonable. The other option is to have someone who
has a lathe and a little experience make a test bar for you.
JP (22415) |
| JP, I'll have to study up on this a bit more. I just looked
through HTRAL again and the alignment section was pretty brief. If I
get an adapter from Rose and the socket extension, what keeps these
items in the spindle? I know that must sound like a pretty dumb
question but I have not used anything on the spindle of this lathe
except for a chuck. I mean pressure keeps the mt tooling in the
tailstock and I can't use the tailstock to apply pressure to the
spindle until I get the headstock aligned. Kevin (22416) |
| Kevin, I am
assuming you have a "L" in the serial number of your lathe which
means that the through bore is 1.375". The front is 1.629 and the
taper is .602"/ft. If you decide to make a test bar you will need a
piece of 1.75" stock to start with. Machine dimensions are in the
files section under tech info, dimensions, sb_7324.pdf The options I
have presented are 1 buying the adapter and socket extension 2
making a test bar. JP
(22417) |
| Friction, make sure
the surfaces are clean and tap the items in with a soft faced
mallet. Use a rod or pipe and the mallet to drive them out when
done. Ideally the recommended large punch should soft faced.
JP (22418) |
| You don't
need a good chuck or even a straight bar (one that is truly round
simplifies it a bit though. I think drill rod fits that
description). You will need at least one dial indicator and a
micrometer or accurate set of calipers to measure the diameter of
the bar. Two dial indicators helps and four would be even better.
The method determines the axis that the spindle rotates in. You will
have to read it and give it some thought since it doesn't exactly
describe your situation. But it will work. John (22421) |
| John, Thanks so
much for submitting this. I got so fascinated by it that I played
around with the concept in CorelDraw for a couple of hours trying
different assumptions. What I found was if the bar is perfectly
round this works great as long as you are directly over the axes
with you dial indicator. If the bar is not entirely round the best
accuracy will be obtained not by taking the highest and lowest spots
and averaging them. Instead find the high spot and then turn the
spindle by hand 180 degrees and take another measurement and then
average those two. Then I made the assumption that the bar was both
out of round and bent. I made them very gross amounts to see the
effect. I made the bar be an oval of 2 on the major axis and 1.5
inches on the minor axis. I gave it a bend of 0.2 inches, or +/- 0.1
TIR at the tailstock end. I found that if I take the measurement at
180 degrees from the high spot then the accuracy of finding the
center (assuming the lathe is perfectly aligned and being measured
with this crooked and out of round bar) came out to be 20
thousandths off. Actually, that is not too bad for such a dud of a
bar. Theoretically less than perfect, but it looks like drill rod
will yield an extremely accurate indication. I m still having
trouble visualizing that sticking a piece of paper under one side of
one foot of the lathe will twist the bed enough to cause the
accuracy to move by a measurable amount. HTRAL seems to say the same
thing when they use the two precision levels to set up the lathe and
drive wooden wedges under the feet to level it, but it still makes
me scratch my head that a piece of paper could twist a lathe bed!
Or, when the article said stick paper under the foot, did it
actually mean to put it between the bed way and the headstock?
Neal (22428) |
| I'm
scratching about for info on reversible jaws (I'm a bit sad like
that I'm afraid). If you could see your way to posting some pix of
the jaw assembly - assembled and disassembled - I would be forever
grateful to you :o) How do the top pieces locate on the bottom
pieces? Do they use dowels at the interface ? Are they strong ? Some
folk have mentioned serrations to assist location and strength, but
does this provide location sideways in the jaw-ways ? Do they
snag/seize up any? Pix would be great if you can. Tim
(22432) |
| Neal I used the
method to align my 9". Since it has leveling screws in the foot at
the tailstock end I didn't consider the paper shims. The affect of
the leveling screws is the same as putting shims under the front or
back of the tailstock foot, both will twist the bed slightly. I was
surprised how a little adjustment of the screws would change the
alignment, so I would think paper shims would work for small
alignment changes. For the above approach your lathe table must be
stiff and stable enough that it will maintain the twist. Sometime
when you you are dialing something in, lean on the tailstock. It's
surprising how little force it takes to make a few thou. difference.
The leveling screws will mostly affect the forward back alignment
and shims under one or the other foot may be required to put a
vertical bend in the bed. I assumed that my spindle was close enough
in the vertical dimension. I seem to recall doing a quick check and
deciding that it was good enough. In Kevin's case the headstock may
be way out of alignment and twisting the bed would not be the first
thing to do. Shimming the headstock would be a better approach to
make large changes and then follow-up with the leveling screws to
get the final alignment. John
(22434) |
| I just ordered an
adapter from Rose. I told her what I have and what I needed (spindle
morse taper adapter) and she said they were $150 new or $85 used. I
bought the used one but did I get the right thing? I searched around
trying to find info on it and came across people who said they were
around $50 new from south bend? Kevin (22437) |
| I doubt
you could get these for $50 from SB, however we stock a reducing
sleeve for the SB Heavy 10 to #3 Morse, new, for a bit less than
Parts Works. We also
carry a test bar, not currently online, but available for $250.
Scott Logan (22438) |
| John, Not sure what
you mean here. I would level the bed first as accurately as possible
and then measure the headstock alignment in reference to the bed. I
think that is what you are saying but I am not sure. I can't
understand how the headstock became misaligned. Why would anyone
hack the vee slots in a headstock? I have seen them shimmed instead
of leveling a bed first and nothing ever lined up properly after
that, kind of like a series of hacks to compensate for the previous
one. Kevin is not in a envious position here. JP (22441) |
| Southbend doesn't
sell them anymore, they sold the spare business to Leblond. Rose
won't steer you wrong. You can find them for different prices used
if you want to wait but it won't be much. The SB to morse adapter is
also used with a dead center when you turn parts between centers.
Sounds like an archaic process doesn't it, no chuck. It is an
extremely accurate method. Did she tell you what the morse taper
size is? Have fun, keep us posted on your progress. JP
(22442) |
| I have been
wondering that myself. The only thing I can come up with is that
this is not the original headstock and the replacement didn't fit
correctly or something? although, I don't know why that would be.
Kevin (22443) |
| I quickly said
morse taper 2 and she confirmed. I'm sure it's the right thing. No
doubt she is way, way, way more knowledgeable of these machines than
I. I have a Taig lathe with collets, but it works differently. And
when i turn between centers with that, I make a dead center in the 4
jaw, then use a dog to turn it. Kevin (22444) |
| Do you have a
precision level? Like .001" per ft or better. If not you will need
one for the alignment. You should also check the bed alignment every
6 months or so after you are done. It won't be wasted. The polish
made levels from Enco or MSC are under $100 and work fine, borrowing
one is cheaper. You will also need a good dial indicator with a fine
resolution like .0005"/div or better. This will get a lot of use
afterwards as well. While you are on a spending frenzy you can get
an assortment of brass shim stock. You will use it under the legs as
well as under the headstock. In addition to a headstock alignment
you may want to check the headstock bearing play. This is done with
the headstock mounted to the bed. The procedure is detailed in HTRAL
and in the parts manual. JP (22445) |
| That sounds about
right, the tailstock uses the same size so pick up a couple of #2 MT
dead centers when you get a chance. I use carbide tipped ones, just
my preference. Some people like live centers in the tailstock.
JP (22446) |
| Yep, I have all of
that - I was on that path before getting it reground. Kevin (22448) |
| I bought a new
adapter from Leblond a year last year for $53.00 + shipping. Part
number SBPT205R. It was in old South Bend packaging so I expect it
was part of the new old stock Leblond purchased from South Bend. And
it is MT2. Barry
(22459) |
| I had an Eastern
European 3-jaw chuck with reversible jaws that worked fine once set
up. The locating method was sort of a cruciform mortise tenon, if
that makes any sense. Two Allen screws for each jaw. Result was
reassuringly secure. The down side was that it was a fairly
time-consuming operation to reverse the jaws, because the fit was
very good and a bit on the tight side. The method of fixing with
straight sides made for lots of levering with small screwdrivers to
get the jaws out. I remember wondering why they didn't make them
with angled faces to make it easier. A plastic hammer helped get the
jaws home. Scrupulous cleanliness was needed to ensure accuracy.
After selling that equipment, I resolved to avoid that style of
chuck. Jordan (22473) |
| JP- I'm going to
use your suggestion of checking with the taper extension. Looking at
the Enco catalog (pg 302), wouldn't I need to get one that has a
taper shank of 2? i.e. 214-8512,214-8522, or 214-8532 The first
column (morse taper hole) is just the morse taper of the extension
hole, right? I would think 2 to 2 would be ideal, but would it be
too short for this purpose? Kevin (22526) |
| Kevin, I've lost
track of exactly which lathe you have, but isn't the headstock /
spindle taper a Morse #3? Mario (22527) |
| Mario- No it's a
heavy 10 with some proprietary taper. I purchased a spindle adapter
from Parts Works to adapt it to a MT2. -Kevin (22528) |
| Kevin, NOW I
remember! Sorry about that. Mario
(22531) |
| Any of them would
work. I would recommend using the longest 214-8532 JP (22532) |
| Heavy 10 spindles
are actually #5 Morse tapers. The center adapters are notorious for
getting bounced off of shop floors, so if it's a used one, make sure
you check it for dings and burrs if you want anything to run true!
Roy (22534) |
| WRONG! The
internal taper on the South Bend Heavy 10 spindle is a proprietary
taper of 1.629" dia and a rate of taper the same as a Morse #3:
0.60235" per foot. Scott Logan (22535) |
| Sorry Roy it is a
proprietary Southbend taper. Its .10 smaller than a #5MT and the
taper is not the same. A #5 sleeve will fit partially inside and
wobble. Look in the files section under tech info, machine spec for
the file sb_7434.pdf (numbers may be off). Dimensions are in there.
The 9" lathe has a #3MT hole in the spindle JP (22546) |
| Yes, I stand
corrected. I must admit that I haven't actually tried a #5 Morse
shank in the spindle of my Heavy 10. Rather, I have used a #5 Morse
cleaning plug in the spindle for the fifteen years that I have owned
it. I guess that the soft material disguised the actual lack of fit
leaving me opening my mouth and tripping over my tongue. However,
the point that was lost is that the SB proprietary taper to #2 Morse
taper "adapter" has to be in very good shape for the center to run
true. Roy (22549) |
| They are supposed
to be. I agree that a precision test bar is the ideal item but the
sleeve is the most cost effective alternative. It will get him in
the ball park and making test cuts on stock will be used for the
final adjustment. Its a whole lot better than a 3 or 4 jaw chuck of
questionable origin. I have tried the #5MT adapter, that's how I know
it doesn't work. JP
(22553) |
| I have a Model 67B 15 inch. It has a
1 1/4 bore in the spindle, 2 1/4 x 8 thread, and the end of the
taper is 1.438". This must be a proprietary taper as well, but a
different one than the other? I don't see any in the 7324 document
close to this, then the 15 is not listed there. I'd like to find a
center for this but that looks like it maybe close to impossible. gd (22560) |
| You might try
contacting Rose at Parts Works. She was a former Southbend employee.
Another thing is to make an impression of it with Femo clay and get
a good measurement. I think that is what the stuff is called, it
hardens up and doesn't shrink. JP(22561) |
| Leveling
question |
| I have a South Bend
9 Model A. Trying to get it to cut true. My biggest problem is that
the lathe is in a barn with a wood floor. I have some leveling pads
on it, and some sheet steel underneath them. If I keep constantly
adjusting, I can get the taper to about .0005. Been thinking about
getting a piece of at least 1/4 inch steel to sit it on in hopes of
getting it to turn true. Was wondering if anyone has had any similar
experiences?
(24339) |
| A wood floor is a
dynamic thing. There is nothing you can do to overcome that other
than to place it in a climate controlled environment and even that
won't make up for any structural shortcomings. A 1/4 inch steel
plate will still deflect and will add even more weight to the
underlying structure. If the floor is shifting a lot, you need to
look below it rather than above it. Being vigilant in keeping your
lathe level is all you can do otherwise. Roy (24343) |
| I put my 10 on a
one inch plate no more prob. It is a b... to move but it worked. (24347) |
| Another option is
to build a very rigid stand to isolate movement in the lathe from
movement in the floor. Something similar to the one found on 10L
cabinet models would do. This probably needs to be welded and
triangulated steel. Ed (24348) |
| Move but it worked
my 9" model a came mounted, the table has 1/2" plate 2'x4' for the
top. sides and back are 1/4" plate. side posts are 3/8" angel
3"wide. it has 2 shelvs that are 1/4" plate. the front doors look
like 1/8" plate over all I think the table is 500+ lbs or so of
steel . 4 guys were not able to lift it with the lathe off. and at
each of the 4 feet is has jack screws to level it. I think the stand
I have is over kill. you could build something smaller and not go
crazy on thickness and it would probably be just right. (24351) |
| I rent the barn so doing
anything to the floor is really out of the question. Possibly going
to try a Thick piece of steel under the lathe. Have been looking for
a shop with a concrete floor as I may be getting a mill, and I know
the floor won't hold that.
(24410) |
| My garage
floor is cement, yet it has a slope about 1/8 of an inch per foot to
prevent rain water... from ever building up inside. Block pads and
shims set it right. You may want to place yours on a cement block
with rebar within. Then shim it up. My lathe weighs about 2000 LBS
so 1/4 inch steel would not do me much good. (24446) |
| Last week a young
fellow asked if the lathe needed bolted down to the floor. And I
said no I move mine too much. That was all fine until I went to the
other side of the spectrum and chucked up a 14"x3" 4140 bar. Wow now
everything is changed. The bed is out of whack the shims moved,
anything that could change did. Now i am going to weld 3/4" jack
screws on the base to get rid of the shims. Then bolt this thing
down and grout under the frame rail's. Then re level the bed again
for hopefully the last time. Bob
(25163) |
| You said
that to me (maybe so another person, as I am long since beyond a
"young man". In reading the HTRAL that came with Dad's lathe in
1946, the level of the machine seems paramount to accuracy. I would
guess that given a solid, moveable table, one could turn out useful
work. I would surmise that repeatability and accuracy to the .0001
may be elusive in less than "text" installations. Jerry (25166) |
| Bob, Far be it from
this novice to tell anyone what to do, but welding to a SB lathe or
its factory made base should be a plan of last resort, as the damage
is rather permanent. A simple solution, that does not involve
permanent damage to the lathe or its base, is leveling the lathe
with four (4) Barry mount machinery leveling feet that you can
obtain from any industrial supply house. They have a built in jack
screw arrangement that does not require any kind of welding on the
lathe or its base. These things work well, are easy to adjust, and
are very well made. With a 12" Starrett 98 precision level it is
easy to keep the lathe trim and level. I set my 13" x 6' SB up on
them after landing my lathe in Louisiana in May of last year. I
positioned and leveled the lathe and basically abandoned it. I
checked the level of the lathe bed again about a week ago, after
finally turning work, and putting a little stress on the lathe. I
can report nothing has changed since initial leveling. (All the
money I put into pilings, 12" thick slab, re-bar, highway mesh, and
5,000 psi concrete is paying off.) I can also report the taper
attachment made by SB is a rugged unit. I found that you can not
damage this thing by hitting the bottom of it quite hard with the
back your head while adjusting your Barry mount machinery leveling
feet. Nick (25175) |
| Leveling is nice,
but set properly on a plane surface is really the way to go. Is a
ship "level"? NO, but I bet their lathes are attached to a plane
surface and then adjusted for alignment. On a practical note
leveling is a good idea if you on not on board ship as it is an easy
reference to a (pseudo) plane surface. Eric (25179) |
| Very good
angle there, Eric. (Pun intended) I would like to toss this around
some, as I have yet to "level" my SB9A. It is sitting on a steel
stand that I fabbed. The stand is not truly flat on top. I took
great pains to make it as nearly so as possible. Used chop saw to
cut mitres, framing square, 3-4-5 measurements, tack, grind, etc
etc. As has been observed hereon, and by all who weld, welding moves
steel all about, so my stand is in no wise precise. Stand is now
bolted to a solid slab. Now then, using a gravity level would be the
easiest method to achieve a mount in which the machine's "feet" sit
on an equal horizontal plane. Whether pitched or yawed a degree
matters little, provided the bed is precisely parallel to said
plane. Keep in mind, gentle reader, I am as sharp as a marble in the
world of lathe set up and operation. (This WILL change, Lord
willing) I presently own one level that does not lie. It is a four
foot "builders level". Surely it will not indicate, nor will my eyes
detect the small movements required to achieve the one plane mount.
So I must acquire a precision level. I saw one for sale here on the
board for $100. I am told that spending for this tool can vary
widely. Who in this group can offer frugal advice on the procurement
of an adequate device. I do not anticipate doing work to plus or
minus .0001". Less than .001" accuracy would be unacceptable of
course. Of utmost importance, I am guessing, that a lathe not
mounted solidly in plane, can damage itself from stresses while
making cuts.
Jerry (25183) |
| Jerry, I noticed you mentioned 9" lathe. since
that unit has two feet, one one each end of the bed, that limits the
places that would be leveled. A geometrically flat mount will put
the machine in it's ideal setting. As was mentioned, a rolling ship
does not offer an Earth level except in mid roll AND mid pitch. If
you take a channel that is something on the order of a foot long,
and put pins in the upper outside corners, and an object in the
center, you can place a fish tank tube in this unit and make a
bubble level with a radius of almost any curve. this can be your
home-brew masters level with the aid of some patence and a marker.
As for a little out, you do need to consider that you will most
likely not bend the lathe in the middle as it only has two legs. one
on each end. if the lathe had a third in the center, then the height
of that could make huge effects. And, as noted, a stem to stern
level is not all that important. (I have a friend who elevates the
head to the chips roll out on boring cuts) the only real challenge
is to prevent racking. Racking will make it next to impossible to
cut the OD of a long part with consistency of diameter. At some
point the carriage will be either approaching the center height or
will be moving away from it. a perfectly centered bit in the center
of your shaft will actually cut a bow-tie shaped part. To adjust
level, there are two methods, screw levelers or shims. With your
welding skills, screw levelers should be very easy. The reality ?
many, many people have lathes on wooden benches that pitch and yaw
with temperature and humidity. Short cuts will be hard to measure
the tapers. BUT, if you find your facing cuts are not square, check
the level before you make machine adjustments ! Dave
(25186) |
| Sharp Marble, You
can pick up a Polish machinist level from Enco or MSC for around
$100 new, sometimes on sale for $77. Repeatability is required, not
absolute accuracy. It has to be better than 1 minute repeatability
or .003"/ft. They are called 'Master Precision Levels' and are
listed as accurate to 10 seconds, meaning that each division on the
vial equals .0005"/ft tilt. A pair of parallels is also handy to
raise the level above the Vee tops by using the flat just beside the
way as a reference surface. It is usually not dinged like the top of
the way. Use metal shims, as large as possible. You will need to
check the level after a short time as things settle in and again
every 6 months thereafter, usually after a season change. JP
(25188) |
| Dave wrote: (snip)
The reality ? many, many people have lathes on wooden benches that
pitch and yaw with temperature and humidity. Short cuts will be hard
to measure the tapers. And, it should be noted, SB themselves both
sold a wooden bench and also sometimes gave out the drawings for
self construction. A member in San Francisco kindly put out the
drawings a couple of years back. Sorry, but I forgot his name, which
is unpardonable, as he was very helpful to me offlist. Len
(25189) |
| Jerry, I've got
some thoughts you might find useful but they're just from my limited
experience. There's lots of information on this topic in the
archives from smarter folks than me. The best deal on 10" precision
levels is usually found at Wholesale Tools (clunky web catalog but
order their paper catalog while you're at it). It's a Chinese level
(the instructions are Chinese English and will drive you crazy) and
no Starrett but it works for this purpose. I paid $70 on sale last
year. On "leveling": It is not necessary to get these lathes "level"
in the sense that they are in line with a tangent to the earth's
surface. It is only necessary that mounting does not warp the bed.
So what you're looking for is the same "bubble" at each end of the
lathe when measured transverse to the ways and the same "bubble" on
the front and back ways when measured axially along the ways. The
transverse and axial bubbles do not have to match. You will go crazy
with a precision level (0.005" per 10") trying to get the bubbles to
match so don't be too anal-retentive about it, because: Most of our
lathes have bed wear and even when new weren't perfect. This means
that you're going to have to tweak the shims under the lathes
mounting feet to get it to cut true. Therefore, your mounting
surface does not have to be true, although it's useful if they're
pretty flat. Lots of information available on this but look for "Rollie's
Dad's Method of Lathe Alignment". BTW, I don't think you need a
precision level of the type mentioned above to level a lathe - a
good machinist's level is perfectly adequate. Stands, IMHO, should
have as their primary features: 1) Sturdiness so that they don't
shake or change geometry when loads are put on them; 2) Are stable
over time. Weldments can change over time as they stress-relieve so
if you weld up a stand, it might be wise to use your rose-bud tip to
stress-relieve before putting into use. On bolting to the floor: I
tend to not like to do this because then the stand is fixed at two
or four points to the floor. Temperature changes can then impose
stress since concrete and steel have different coefficients and who
knows how the stand will react to this. This has to be balanced
against the type of work you're doing (faceplate work with some
unbalance?). All I know is that I once turned a 4" piece of steel
that was 3' long on my 9C with a free stand and didn't have bit of
trouble except for the visit to my chiropractor for a sprung back.
Ed (25190) |
| Another fairly good
deal is from Shars - (lousy web site
www.shars.com , and you have to
order by phone or email) On page 18 of their 2005 catalog they have
Chinese made 8" levels for $70 and 12" for $83 stated accuracy is 10
seconds / .0005 per foot. Who knows how good these are, but as was
said its repeatability not accuracy that is most important.
Nick (25202) |
| Their cat is pretty
good, just their website sucks. I got 4 machine mounts today. 3/4"
jobs. Will re parallel the bed tomorrow. Bob (25203) |
| Yet another supplier is
www.Grizzly.com they have the same 8: level
for $59.00 and 12" for $70.00 Note also that there are 2 varieties. one has a
single vial for level. another has dual vials. one long and one
cross. I use the simple single vial style. Thanks to my Uncle for
his gift and my Guardian Angel for keeping it safe from a young boys
(mine) prying fingers and sparing the disassembly that befell so
many of my early gifts. Dave
(25204) |
| I've just noticed
on ebay there are a number of Starrett units up for auction. From
$0.99 to over $200. What's up with that? I bid on one. We'll see. If
I can get one for less than $50, I figure I've done okay. (25205) |
| Better quality
levels from Toolmex (European, NOT Chinese) are available from:
http://store.lathe.com/
http://store.lathe.com/tmx-2-422-008.html
http://store.lathe.com/tmx-2-422-012.html Scott S. Logan (25206) |
| You can get a new
Starrett level 12" for right at a 100.00. Duane (25209) |
| Jerry, a new 12"
Starrett 98 runs around 100.00. A Starrett 98 machinist level will do
all you want to do. I used them for 40 yrs leveling machinery as a
millwright. Duane (25210) |
| That is a good
price for that level, it looks to be the same one sold by Enco. Made
in Poland. I got one, and was surprised to find that the base of it
was so soft that sliding it a few inches on the bed of the lathe
left noticeable ridges. I guess this is the difference between the
Starrett MPL and the polish. I may send it back, as if it was
damaged after a few minutes usage it probably won't be precision for
long. The grizzly one looks different (I think they make all their
tools). Anyone have experience with it? james (25211) |
| Where can you buy a new 12" Starrett 98
level for around $100.00? Enco sells them for close to $200.00. Gary
P. (25212) |
| These are the same
polish units sold by Enco and shars, but at twice the price...
James (25213) |
| I keep telling my wife to wait for 20 seconds.
About 20
minutes before she sets off the bidding war and we have seen 20 bids
in those 20 minus. As a lark, I showed her to #1) not make ANY bids
until the last moment as it alerts others. and #2) bid only with 20
seconds or less left by having a timer next to you. We 'swooped' and
were the second bidder. The reasoning is that E-bay sends out an
e-mail notifying you that you have been out bid. If you are wrapped
up in a response to the lathe list, your attention to time drifts
off and you miss the bid. unless you get the e-bay notice to go back
and check it out. Also, a courtesy is to not bid on a item someone
else mentions on a list. I never mention things on a list I am
bidding on so don't invite 1,000 other people to take an interest. I
think that is keeping things on the level. Dave
(25214) |
| I have a Grizzly
one. It comes in a wood box coated, wrapped in that thick brown
paper with cosmoline. Made in China. Instructions are written in
Chinglish. Used it once. Took it out of the box, checked the
headstock and tailstock area of the bed for level, both within .001"
Put it back in the box. Seems close enough for me for right now
anyway. Appears to be well made anyway, good enough for me so far.
Alex
(25215) |
| I found my Starrett
98Z 12 in a used tool store in South Hampton or London when I was
over visiting a friend a couple of years ago. I got it for the
equivalent of $70. The bottom of it (the business end) is very hard
steel. This thing is very old, but works perfectly, with no upsets
on its base. I see these things on eBay all the time. I think they
go for around a $100 or less, usually. I had the Old Lady turn the
jack screw on the lathe while I watched the bubble in the vial to
get a feel for its sensitivity. She did not turn the jack screw much
before the bubble moved plenty enough to see things had changed. I
might get another one of these so I can put one at each end of the
bed instead of moving it back and forth. My $.002 is buy the best,
if you can. Those guys at the Starrett tool section on eBay are real
sharks; sometimes it takes 2 or 3 tries to get the feel of the
prices on these fine tools. I have found out 4 times that $25 will
not get you a used 25-441 dial indicator. Now I am going $35 on the
next 4. Leap frogging 2 of these on the lathes carriage is a cheap
but effective method of precise longitudinal travel measurement.
Nick(25218) |
| You right Gary, 12"
with case 202.00, with out case 149.00, 8" 106.00, and 6" 85.00. I
have all three, the 8" and the 6" work as good as the 12". Use a
good 2' carpenters level to set them on. The 8" at 106.00 would beat
any foreign made at 180.00 +. Yes I have tools I bought 40 yrs ago.
The price I paid for them then heart just as bad as today's prices.
Duane (25220) |
| These prices are
from Enco. Don't pay more for a used one then you could buy a new
one for. Duane (25221) |
| I buy items off
E-bay all the time. I would never get caught up in a bidding war
even if I used the sniper feature. I look at an item and calculate
what it is worth to me to own that item. I bid that amount and then
don't both looking back. E-bay automatically keeps my bids low and
do not elevate the bid unless someone else outbids me. At that point
I delete the "outbid" notice and forget about the item. The items I
get a confirmation of I remove from my wants list and everything
else goes back on. The good news is I've got some beautiful
machinery that way and the bad news is I've missed some beautiful
machinery that way. I attend and bid at live auctions the same way.
I have a "bid on card" that I mark the auction number and my maximum
bid on. When the action starts I follow along on my score card. Once
my limit is passed I let go. Couple of weeks back I saw a "nail
driver" go for $30.00 more than I could order it off the company
website and the company included the shipping in their prices. Go
figure. Dennis
(25222) |
| No matter what you
get, there is no need to get one longer than the width of the ways.
For a heavy 10, you would need one at least 7" or a parallel to set
it on. I got my 12" Fowler for $35 off ebay. A similar one with
metric calibrations went for under $10 later that day. I have seen
some really good ebay deals on metric measurement tools. Ed (25223) |
| I cannot understand
why almost everyone is suggesting the purchase of a 12" level. A 6"
one will reach across your 9" lathe without any trouble. The extra
6" will only cost more and add nothing to the precision or accuracy.
For my 10K I use a 6" Starrett No. 98 (#98-6) machinist level. The
cost about $60.00, the precision is well in excess of South Bend
requirements. IMHO I'd rather have Starrett then Chinese. Ed P
(25230) |
| Ed, I agree with
you. My 6" 98 is more than good enough for lathe, mill, shaper, etc.
"leveling". Duane had some good thoughts on it too. BTW, Duane got
me last year on this topic when I was using a Master Precision Level
for scraping ways and I said that the 98 wasn't good for that
purpose. Duane, I apologize (better late than never), the Master
level drove me crazy waiting for it to settle down. I finally used
the master with the 98 at right angles to it and that worked pretty
good but it would have been a lot faster and just as good if I'd had
2 98s. I think I've got the ways scraped in pretty good and I don't
think there's any "Kentucky Drift". Maybe the thing to remember when
we're "leveling" lathes is that we're just getting the thing in the
ballpark with the level. The actual final adjustment is the shimming
from the results of turning tests. Ed (25233) |
| Ed, I'm
not trying to be a smart butt about any of this. I'm just trying to
pass on what I know from 40 yrs of installing machinery with these
levels. Yes, a 6" Starrett 98 is all any of us need to set a lathe
with. My mill and big drill press are also leveled with a 98. I even
pick up on things here that I hadn't thought of. Duane (25240) |
| I don't
know about that! My Starrett 98 shows a significant bubble movement
when a .001" shim is placed under one end. Therefore I believe that
I'm getting the bed "flat" within a "couple of tenths". This means
the tool height varies by no more than that over the entire length
of the bed, more than accurate enough. However if you mean that
after leveling you take it one step further and shim it to reduce
the effect of wear, I can understand that. Because of bed wear my
10K produces quite a taper. If I want something of constant diameter
it's turned between centers and the tailstock moved to where ever it
needs to be to reduce the taper. Ed P
(25248) |
| I bought a
precision level too, and they can drive you nuts. The slightest
adjustment shows up with a large bubble movement. The 98-6 is pretty
much on the money when the bubble is carefully centered, and it has
a lower frustration factor. It took a long time to set up my surface
plate dead level with the precision one. With 3/8" X 16 leveling
bolts the slightest crack of adjustment. My welded up base didn't
help to much either but I did finally get it right after more than a
few hours. It could drive someone nuts. (25254) |
| Ed, you are correct
that my comments are made in the context of worn lathes that require
some tweaking after leveling to get them to give "acceptable"
results. What's acceptable will vary with the user and the work
being done. Ed (25289) |
| Easier to
Handle Levels |
| In the recent
thread discussing the leveling of a lathe it was pointed out that a
precision level is, by its very nature, large and somewhat
inconvenient to use. They are also rather expensive. For all
practical purposes a decent, screw adjusted, clinometer is as
accurate as a precision level when used to set-up a machine. The
major advantage is being much smaller and far easier to use. It is
also becomes quite practical to set a machine up "nearly level" and
monitor any subsequent changes thereof. For machines of any size
that we are liable to encounter there is no requirement or advantage
in exact leveling. It is merely necessary to be able to detect any
changes from the original setting so that any resulting inaccuracies
in work can be rectified by restoring the status quo. When using a
conventional level the only possible status quo is true level (to
within the accuracy of the instrument) whilst with a clinometer any
known small angular offset can be set and used as the reference. I'm
not aware of any commercial sources of suitable clinometers at a
sensible price but, provided an adequately sensitive bubble vial can
be found, a unit of entirely satisfactory performance may easily be
constructed. Fortunately a satisfactory clinometer does not need the
extremely, and frustratingly, sensitive bubble vial of a proper
precision level. Mine is a UK wartime instrument made in 1944
carrying the military reference number 1B/4235. The design is simple
and anyone having a need for a similar device could do far worse
than copy the basic layout using a fabricated frame. The main frame
is a hollow channel L shaped casting just over 1" wide and 6" in the
long side by a bit over 2" in the short one. In use it lies on the
long side with the short leg projecting up. A pivoted arm
approximately 4" long lying above the long side carries a bubble
vial of nominal sensitivity 30 seconds per division. There is a set
of 5 divisions of 0.1" spacing marked for each end of the bubble. A
vertical screw (probably 12.5 tpi) within the short side of the main
frame allows the arm to be moved upwards by about 0.8" from the
nominal zero (level) position representing 10 degrees of tilt. A
scale on the side aligns with a pointer on the arm indicating
degrees of tilt whilst the screw actuating knob is calibrated in
minutes. Careful attention to pivot geometry ensures that the scales
are accurate through the full operating range despite the straight
line drive of an accurate movement. For personal construction and use
the errors arising from simple pivots are probably inconsequential.
If you do decide to build one it would be far easier to scale the
adjuster for 30 minutes per turn (half a degree) to use no 10 or no
12 ANC 24 tpi for the screw and adjusting pivot arm dimensions
accordingly. 30 seconds of arc on a 6" base corresponds to a bit
over 1.5 thou per foot so working "bubble edge on line" its no great
trouble to set a lathe to within a thou or so, either to true level
or relative to an offset scale point on the adjuster. When setting
to true level it is obviously necessary adjust the lathe until
rotating the instrument by 180 degrees causes no deviation of the
bubble. Clive (25366) |
| Clive, I have the
Clinometer Field Mk V, 1916. Can be used 0-45, or 45-90, the pivot
arm is graduated 0-60 minutes for the 2" sliding bubble. Brass
casting with 45 teeth on the inside of the quadrant to engage the
pivoting arm. Actually saw one being used in some footage on the
history channel to set mortar angles. You're quite right, normally
we are only looking for relative changes and its much easier using
one of these than the 8" Starrett. Bernard R (25369) |
