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Lathe - Lubrication

 
 

 

 
 
Greasing Head/Backgear Shafts 9" SB (Jan 17, 2001) Changing my oil after a trillian revs (Sep 15, 2002)
SB lathe lubricants (Jan 19, 2001) Lubricating the 10K quick-change gearbox (Nov 6, 2002)
Help With SB Lubricants (Jan 21, 2001) Oil leaking from clutch wheel (Nov 28, 2002)
Lubes for the Lathe (Jan 26, 2001) Gear Box Oiling (Feb 18, 2003)
Lubrication (Jan 31, 2001) Apron oil reservoir - how much liquid? (Feb 19, 2003)
More on Lubrication From Shell Oil (Feb 2, 2001) Quick change Gearbox lubrication (Mar 9, 2003)
Spray On Open Gear Lube (Feb 3, 2001) Grease fittings in lathe (Apr 20, 2003)
Lathe Lubes (Feb 3, 2001) Changing Oil In Apron (Apr 29, 2003)
Thrust Bearing Lubricant? (Mar 18, 2001) Improved way lubrication (Jul 8, 2003)
Grease application (Mar 26, 2001) Lubing up a hand lever collet closer? (Jul 9, 2003)
Oil for cross slide (Mar 29, 2001) 9" Headstock oil leak (Sep 10, 2003)
9" SBL Lubrication (Apr 4, 2001) Getting the old oil out and the new oil in? (Nov 29, 2003)
Leather Belts (lube) (May 29, 2001) Gear teeth surface lubrication (Dec 12, 2003)
Zerk Adapter? (Jun 17, 2001) Thoughts about oil for the gears (Feb 10, 2004)
More on greasing the spindle (Jun 17, 2001) Apron, grease or oil on gears? (Apr 8, 2004)
Wood oil feed plugs (Jul 5, 2001) Grease retro for 10K headstock bushings? (May 20, 2004)
What oil really works? (Nov 6, 2001) Spindle Oil cups (May 29, 2004)
Cone pulley oil port thread (Nov 14, 2001) Oils in Canada (Sep 28, 2004)
Which permatex grease for cone pulley? (Apr 4, 2002) Gearbox Lubrication Tube Question (Oct 13, 2004)
Model C spindle lubrication (Apr 10, 2002) Lubrication chart (16 sbl) (Nov 18, 2004)
Bearing grease? (Jun 17, 2002) How come auto oil is so bad? (Dec 6, 2004)
Lubricating backgear shaft (Jul 19, 2002) SB heavy 10 spindle lube path (Jan 5, 2005)
Apron Lubrication (Jul 22, 2002) Chuck Lubrication (Mar 7, 2005)
Spindle Oil (Sep 14, 2002)  
 
Greasing Head/Backgear Shafts 9" SB
If you have tried to grease the Spindle Pulley shaft and Backgear shaft on your SB, you will find two 1/4" x 20 plugs which you need to remove to fill with grease. There is no grease nipple to attach your grease so it make it very hard to do. I made a grease fitting adapter by drilling a 1/8" hole through a 1/4" x 20 UNC Hex head bolt and silver soldiering a standard grease nipple to the end. If you do not have torches you can drill and tap the grease fitting into the end of the bolt. To use, just remove the grease plugs and screw in your adapter. Pump full of grease and remove. Works Great. See picture of my adapter. Jim (70)
Very Good! The lube chart says Teflon grease. What brand/type are people using. The reason I ask is that I'm getting another headstock that has the back-gear and I'll need to overhaul it. Paul R. (72)
Here's the trick I used. This grease rec by SB comes in a 3 oz tube, its called Super Lube, Grease, from Permatex, item no. 82325. This what SB will send you for about 15$, is less than 4$ from Fastenal Co. www.fastenal.com . I purchased a chainsaw grease lub gun, a small plastic hypodermic type injector device readily available at most Home Depot like stores in the chainsaw dept. Its for greasing the rachet at the end of a chainsaw bar. This injector has a small plastic tip that fits nicely into the hole on the backgrear shaft and main pulley shaft. You do have to remove the grease that comes in the injector. Then fill the injector from the 3 oz tube and inject it into the hole. Have to admit I like the grease fitting adaptor device, but you would have to purchase a grease cartrige of the Super lube, this is available from Fastenal also. Or I guess you could get one of those small grease guns. I also now have found type A, B and C lub oils at about $7+/gal vs 7.50/Qt from SB. big tom (73)
To grease the back gear shaft and step pulley with the Teflon grease, does one add grease until it just starts to ooze out of the ends of the bushings? JOP (95)
SB lathe lubricants
Here is what I think works as far as SB oils, per my research into SUS viscosity and Mobil and Shell products that cross walk to the SB rec SUS viscosity Type A - Use Velocite 10, MSC pp 1916 item no. 60002136, $10.65/gal, MSC Supply, http://www.mscdirect.com/default.htm Type B- Turbine Oil part no. 14155K52 SUS 155 @ 100 F, $7.60/gal, Mc Master Carr http://www.mcmaster.com/  Type C - Multipurpose Machine Oil, 1024K17, SUS 325 @ 100 F, $8.55/gal, McMaster Carr http://www.mcmaster.com/ for way oil use Way Lub 1017K11 SUS 325 @ 100 F, 8.55/gal, McMaster Carr http://www.mcmaster.com/ If my 13" burns up in the next several mos I will be sure to post a msg to this effect. but think I am OK. (74)
Help With SB Lubricants
I have noticed a lot of reference to Type A, B and C lubricants. My lubrication chart does not reference this information. It only shows the following three viscosities. 100 - Spindle Bearing and Apron Reserve 150 - 240 - Gearbox, Counter shaft 240 - 500 - Everything else. I purchased some Turbine Oil Which I do believe falls into the 240-500 viscosity range. Are this viscosity's refer to the A B C? (76)
From the SBL lubrication chart: Machine Oil Saybolt Universal Viscosity Rating in Seconds at 100 degrees F. Type A: 100 sec. Type B: 150-240 sec. Type C: 250-500 sec. Usage: A e.g. spindle bearings, B e.g. gear box, C e.g. spindle thread, ways, dovetails. Oh, and Teflon grease for the back gears and spindle cone. Paul R. (77)
As far as getting the stuff, I'm going to try out (Big) Tom Miller's recommendations and order some of each of the oils and the grease and try it out. Paul R. (79)
Lubes for the Lathe
Based upon a combination of Tom Miller's recommendations and my laziness, I ordered ALL my lube oil and grease from McMaster-Carr. Here's what I got: Teflon Grease: Synthetic Grease With PTFE 3-oz Tube, Nlgi #2, Translucent White, 1378K31, $4.98 "Super Lube" Type A Spindle Oil: Mobil Velocite #10 (107 SUS), 1 Gal, 2158K24, $10.44 Type B Gearbox Oil: Turbine Oil (215 SUS), 1 Gal, 14155K62, $8.02 Type C Screw/Gear Oil: Multi-purpose machine oil (325 SUS), 1 Gal, 1024K17, $8.02 Also, Way Oil: Way Lubricants (325 SUS), 1 Gal, 1017K11 $8.44 I decided to try the "Way Oil" even though it is the same SUS (325) as type C, and even though that's all SB calls for. It says it is supposed to be tacky and cling to the surfaces better. We'll see. Paul R. (91)
Lubrication
I've been using 9C for many years and really had no idea what oil I should really be using. The only information I found was to use a 10W machine oil and that's what I've been used. The lubrication chart that was recently posted was a big help. Now I know what I should be used. And that got me thinking. Having been automotive air conditioning mechanic for many years I knew the automotive A/C oil is a 500 viscosity. Further research tells me the standard viscosity used in home and commercial air conditioning systems is 150 to 300 viscosity. All of these oils are highly refined low wax content non-detergent and hold their viscosity through a wide range of temperatures. They can be purchased in small quantities 1 gallon or less at any refrigeration supplier or automotive parts store (R12/134A) only. Standard oils for the R12, R22, are high quality machine oil . They are nontoxic and completely safe to use. The oils that I have use have little or no smell a plus for anyone that has allergies to strong smells like me. Warning do not using the (PAG) oil use for the 134A refrigerants systems. This oil is highly toxic and will take the paint off of any surface it comes in contact with. Do not using it. Castrol Retro A/C oil used for the 134A and R12 automotive air conditioning systems is a 500 viscosity oil and is considered safe to use. Also some air compressor oils are 100 viscosity non-detergent and should be suitable to use. These oils should be a suitable replacement for the Southbend oils if you can't find the original oils anywhere else. You can also use non-detergent motor oil as a substitute a 10W oil is the same as 100 viscosity the. 50W is the same as 500 viscosity. don't know if this conversion was mention before. Do not using multigrade oils or standard motor oils that have detergent in them. Rick (133)
You can also use non-detergent motor oil as a substitute a 10W oil is the same as 100 viscosity the. 50W is the same as 500 viscosity. don't know if this conversion was mention before. From the McMaster-Carr website, you get the following equivalents: SAE 5W == 100 SUS (SB Type A) SAE 10 == 215 SUS (SB Type B) SAE 20 == 315 SUS (SB Type C) Could you be off by a factor of about 2? Paul R. (136)
The reference to oil viscosity came from the modern refrigeration and air conditioning manual. In the electric motor selection describes using S.A.E. 20 or S.A.E. 30 ( 200 to 300 viscosity ) this book could be wrong of course the Website to refer to could also be wrong. I will look this up in my engineering book and get back to you. Rick (139)
I have been buying my A, B and C lubrication oil directly from South Bend. I feel the SB company has been helpful to me in identifying my lathe's origins and in stocking some of the parts I had to buy for it, so I (naively?) would like to reward them. Yes, their prices for the lube oils and everything else are higher than elsewhere, but my opinion is that it behooves an amateur SB owner (1935 9" Workshop) like me to make the company feel it is good business for them to cater to us to a small extent. Many machinery companies, McMaster-Carr (who sell cheaper oil) for one, do not really like to do business with amateurs. My most wishful thought is that be if SB gets enough encouragement (read business) from people like us they'll bring back the 9" at a reasonable price, though I'm not holding my breath. Jay (140)
More on Lubrication From Shell Oil
I contacted Shell Oil today and chatted with one of their Technicians. I reviewed the SB Saybolt chart with them and every lube point on the lathe. Here are what Shell recommends. Type A - 10W non-detergent or ISO 22/32 Hydraulic Oil (22 or 32 are on each end of the 10W scale but 32 is easy to find) Type B - 20W non-detergent or ISO 68 Hydraulic Oil Type C - 30W non-detergent or ISO 100 Hydraulic Oil Shell tells me the non-detergent motor oils and hydraulic oils are the same as industrial machine oils for the most part. However, the non-detergent and hydraulic oils are cheaper and easier to find in small qualities and will perform the same function. So, off to town I went today in search of these oils. I went to a local hardware/automotive store (Canadian Tire Ltd. if you are Canadian) I found 10W and 30W non-detergent oil in 1-quart containers for $2.99 each. I also found Hydraulic Oil/Jack Oil in both 32 and 68 for $4.49. (Also referred to as compressor oil, turbine oil or air tool oil) I purchase a 10W, 30W and a Hydraulic 68 for a total price of $10.47 plus tax ($6.98 USD) Check around, some other places like Wal-Mart will have the same stuff. Hope this helps. Have to go oil up my baby now. Jim (154)
What a great post and to think I spent lost of money with MSC. I guess I well have to go out and get some. PS what are you putting on the gears I use 90wt grear oil. Looks like I need to use some thing better. Brett (156)
Brett, Called SB this wk about gear lubrication on my 1939 13" SB lathe, and talked to one of their technicians, a very helpful man, Randy. SB advertised in the lub chart a spray lub for the end gears. They no longer carry such. Randy says to use Type C oil and put a few drops on the gears occasionally. This would be considerably lighter wt oil that the 90wt tradition automotive gear oil. My problem with 90wt would be most of it has a whale oil in it with a distinctively nasty odor, that is impossible to get out of clothing or whatever it gets on. MSC and some of the other suppliers are running $8 to $11 for Type A, B, C or even way oil, per gal, so that gets you to about $2.50 per Qt, not to bad. I would also advocate at least periodically purchasing items from our good friends at South Bend, they are high, but provide us all parts back to the good old days and I would hate to see them stop doing this. big tom (157)
If you look at the lube chart file I uploaded, it looks like Type C for the gears. I Lubed up mine yesterday and put Type C on them. Wow it is so quiet and smooth. (158)
Spray On Open Gear Lube
This may be an answer to our open gear lubrication. OGS MolySlip Open Gear Spray What it is? OGS is a semi-fluid liquid which quickly sets up to a very tenacious lubricating film with exceptional resistance to salt water and corrosion. • Won't wash or fling off • Penetrates into crevices to lubricate and protect • Increased load carrying capabilities with molybdenum disulfide • Forms almost non-brittle dry film Where to use it • Extreme temperatures up to 266 F (130 C) • In areas where a wet lubricant would collect dust and dirt • Slow to moderate speed heavily loaded gears • Swing gears dipper sticks on power shovels • Drive gears on escalators machine tools • Wire ropes sheaves • Slow to moderate speed chains. (159)
Lathe Lubes
To say the least, the research on lubes had indeed been interesting reading. Might suggest that when it comes to the ways, one should really consider way oil. After all, many of use have the old non-hardened beds, and they will wear really fast if sufficient visc oil is not used. Way oil is designed specifically for that purpose. A gallon is not that expensive, compared to a replacement bed. Carl (166)
Thrust Bearing Lubricant?
I'm hoping to reassemble real soon now the spindle on my 9" SB after cleaning/restoring, but the lubrication chart is unclear as to the type of lubricant to use on the thrust bearing (ball bearing w/races). Should I use the Teflon grease or one of the oils (A, B or C)? Paul R. (342)
Having just gotten my 9x workshop lathe, I'm interested in gear lub, way lube, headstock bushing oil as well as the thrust bearing lube/oil. E-bay offer original manuals, but times and lubes have changed and I hope the lubes and oils got a lot better, so I decided to pass on getting one of those. I've been reading the 7x10minilathe and the consensus was to use MD Grease in the gears. Way oil shouldn't be a problem as there don't seem to be many variations in the catalogues. Any suggestions oh sage group? Dave (343)
Grease application
I have a South Bend 10K lathe, there are removable screws in the back gear and spindle which indicate that these are grease points. when the screws are removed, they leave a small opening for the insertion of grease. I do not have a grease gun, however, I do have a spray can containing white lithium grease. The spray can includes a small tube similar to the typical WD-40 cans. When I try to use the small tube to spray the grease into the small hole, it backfires out of the hole with no indication that reasonable amount remained in the shaft, however, I sense that the shafts are not full and require additional grease. Can anyone suggest a better method of installing grease without the use of a grease gun? (395)
Check out the postings under "Files" on this board. You will find lubrication information plus a picture of a "typical" tool used to add grease to the cone pulley and backgear. This tool is used in connection a grease gun though. By the way, the proper lube is "Teflon grease" like SLICKLUBE or similar. Webb (396)
There is no safe way to properly grease this without a grease gun. It needs to be pumped in under some pressure to insure it will travel through the grease passages. I have posted a picture of a little grease fitting you can make to help. Check out the file section. Serious damage can result if not properly lubricated. Jim (398)
Oil for cross slide
After disassembling the carriage and all the associate slides, I was rather disappointed as the action was worse. Yesterday if found out that it was because the places where the leadscrews mount should move freely, not be lodged solid with 30 years of sludge. The oiling chart does not list these places. What should I fill them with? Its a model C. chris (422)
I believe its type C Oil (Saybolt 250-500). I use ISO 60 / SAE 20 / SUS 325 Multipurpose Machine Oil. I use Way Oil of the same viscosity for the sliding dovetails. I believe the oiling chart does indicate this. I have yet to tear apart the saddle and give it a thorough cleaning. I'll probably draw up plans for a replacement cross-feed nut at that point since I do have some play there. I love it when a lathe is reborn! Paul R. (423)
9" SBL Lubrication
Not to be picky (well, alright, maybe) but, after considerable research by Big Tom (thanks!) and myself, I ended up using the following: A: SUS 107, ISO 22 SAE ??, Mobil Velocite Spindle Bearing Oil # 10 B: SUS 215, ISO 46, SAE 10, Turbine Oil C: SUS 325, ISO 68, SAE 20, Machine Oil Ways: SUS 325, ISO 68, SAE 20 Way Oil I splurged on the spindle-oil and got the Mobil brand since the health of my spindle bearings seemed most critical. I also got totally anal and bought four matching oil cans on sale at HF and labeled them A, B, C W. Too cute! No excuses for not oiling regularly. BTW, I buy a lot of this stuff from McMaster-Carr: felt, Gits oilers, oil, bushings, band-saw blades, belts etc. Their prices are okay considering the small quantities, but at least for me the shipping is very fast and cheap. On some stuff I get next day shipping for about three bucks! Put on your eye protection and let the chips fly! Paul R. (468)
Leather Belts (lube)
I have a SB9". The flat belt is starting to slip badly. It doesn't take much of a cut to cause it to slip, even when over tightened. The current belt is some kind of a yellowish reinforced cloth belt. I have a brand new leather one which I have been saving. I have been reluctant to use it do to all of the oil on the pulleys and since I have got to pull the spindle to install it. I can't seem to solve the oil on the pulleys problem. It looks like the pulleys will always be plagued with excess oil. My question is: can I expect any better performance with the leather belt? Jake (739)
Why don't you look into how to splice a leather belt -- its not that hard and then you could change belts without tearing down the lathe. I am old enough to remember as a child going with my father and grandfather to the lumber mills and my favorite the power house. There were lots of leather belts and they were spliced them when they replaced them. I would try to clean up the belt cone before I installed a new belt. However, tearing down the spindle isn't a great idea as you have to readjust everything. Yasmiin (742)
I never thought about it. I guess I could skive the belt and splice it. The oil on the cones is still a problem. I don't know where it is all coming from, but after a half hour's use the cones are pretty well covered with a thin coating of oil. I just assumed that it was normal and was the result of the lack of seals on the machine. I was hoping that the leather belt would overcome the oil. Jake (744)
Many people install leather belts upside down, and they slip. They should be installed with the tanned side (the smooth side that had the fur growing from it) in contact with the pulley. You can also go to the auto parts store and match up a multi-V flat belt of the same length. Install it upside down (smooth side to the pulley). There's nothing wrong with disassembling and cleaning the spindle assembly occasionally. It shouldn't be leaking oil onto the pulley surface. Does it need some repair work? Leather belts can be spliced by gluing (using Barge or similar cement), stitching, or with a metal clip assembly. Any of the old machining books should show how the splice is made; try www.lindsaybks.com Ken (745)
You might check the seal underneath the screw in the middle of the cone pulley for a gasket, if yours has one. Gerald (746)
Check the file section of this group . The splice instructions can be found there. (747)
I took a look today for the origin of my oil leak. It is definitely not coming from the oil screw on the center pulley. It is coming from between the bull gear and the cone pulley. The centripetal force and surface tension seem to place a nice coating of oil over the surface of the large pulley. Is there any easy fix for this? I hate to put on that brand new belt with this oil problem. I seem to remember a thread somewhere where someone making an alemite fitting and was using Teflon grease on the interior of the pulley? Is that a possible option? I have the SB bulletin on splicing the belt. Jake (750)
I wonder if it isn't perhaps supposed to do this? Oil is fed to the spindle bearing by wicks, which feed oil at a steady rate as long as the cups are full - no matter if the lathe is in use 8 hours a day or in storage. That oil has to go somewhere. Chris (753)
Chris, I think you just hit on the problem. There is a groove on each side of the headstock bearings. At the bottom of the groove there is a hole which returns the oil to the reserve. If these holes get clogged up the oil will have to go someplace and that is probably onto the spindle and the rotation will cause it to spin out onto the rest of the assembly including the cone pulleys. If you are using a fair amount of oil in the headstock it may well be because it is not able to return to the oil reserve. I just finished removing the spindle on my 10" SB and found this problem. Also found that the reserve cavity was completely filled with black goo. It had solidified so bad that I could not dig it out and ended up blowing it out with compressed air. According to the manual this reserve should be drained and refilled every 90 days under normal use. I suspect very few lathes get this done even once a year. By the way I bought it with this problem. Not guilty of neglect. Karl (754)
It looks like it is time to remove that spindle and look for gunk and plugged holes. It has been quite some time since the spindle oil has been changed. I haven't changed it in year and a half I have owned it and I bet the previous owner didn't do it either. What is the recommended method for draining the spindle oil? Jake (755)
DON'T USE OIL IN THE SPINDLE CONE PULLEY Even Though the cone pulley says "OIL", the lube chart says Teflon grease, just like the back gears! The oil will probably never stay put in the cone pulley. What I did was to pack as much Teflon grease into the cavities of the pulley and back-gear as I could before assembly, then after assembly, inject more via a syringe screwed into the fill holes. Not perfect, but I'm sure it will work fine for a year of my use of back-gears. Oh, and keep it real clean for assembly. You don't want any abrasives getting in there. Paul R. (758)
I made an zerk adapter and used Teflon grease in the cone and back gear shaft. The oil problem is gone. The belt now stays dry. How often should one grease these areas now? Daily seems excessive as there doesn't seem to be any loss. New Question: My lathe came with a nylon belt installed and an extra brand new leather belt. The elimination of the oil problem greatly reduced the slippage on the nylon belt. Is there any advantage to using a leather belt over the nylon one? Intuitively it seems that the nylon belt would be better and I hate to cut it just to experiment with the leather one. Jake (790)
Zerk Adapter?
A zerk fitting is the kind of little ball-shaped fitting with a tiny internal one-way valve onto which you latch a grease gun in order to inject grease under high pressure. As for how it fits into the lathe, I'd be interested in seeing a picture, too. Chris (889)
There is a picture of the grease fitting in the files area of the group, "nipple.jpg" http://groups.yahoo.com/group/southbendlathe/files/nipple.jpg try a real auto parts store of a farm fleet. (895)
There is a picture of a zerk adapter in the files under "nipple" . I just picked an old zerk fitting off an old ball joint. I made the adapter from an old 1/4 x 20 bolt. I drilled a small hole down the axis of the bolt and then I drilled and tapped the bolt head to accept the zerk fitting. It took about 15 minutes and cost me nothing. The fitting in the files appeared to be braised to a bolt. I was concerned about the effect of the heat on the spring in the fitting. I highly recommend going to greasing the cone and back gear. It solved my oil leak problem and it is two less things I have to oil daily. Jake (899)
Jake: If you look at the lube chart for the 9" it states that you are supposed to use grease and not oil in the cone pulley and back gear. Randy (901)
More on greasing the spindle
The thread on spindle greasing has gotten me thinking. As I do not have one of the tube of the 'special' Teflon grease yet, i do not know the adaptability of my idea. I am thinking instead of using the zerk fitting, the Grease Injection Pump from Finish Line to lubricate bearings on bicycles. There are others too, pedro's comes to mind. Go to your local bike shop and ask for a grease injection pump. The squeeze tube of grease screws into the unit. Pushing on the plunger does the trick. I even wonder if a fitting is really needed to use it with the stock plug. it would work like a gitts oiler. Comments? dennis (896)
Zerk fitting costs maybe 75 cents. Grease gun is around 10-12 bucks including the grease at your local hardware or auto parts store. You need to be able to generate substantial pressure to inject the grease all the way in there - something simple and plunger based is probably not up to the task. Christopher (900)
Wood oil feed plugs
I was given a 9" Southbend with burned up head stock bearings. Re-machining the bearings was no problem, until, as I went to re-assemble I found the oil feed was equipped with wood oil feed plugs. This simply didn't look right and I figured this was the reason the bearings burned up in the first place. So I fitted felt plugs. Now it oils all right, the wall, the floor and me. The thing will pump the reservoirs dry in about 2 minutes of running. I am using 30 weight nd oil in it as I do in my Sheldon. The Sheldon hasn't lost but a few drops in 5 years. This machine, once re-fitted is surprisingly accurate ( no contest for my tool makers Sheldon, but very good) so in my spare time I made it a full set of change gears, a threading dial and fitted a good four jaw chuck. It is fun to play with and will cut threads that the quick change Sheldon won't. Hope someone can give me advice, I'd like to keep it but the oil loss has to stop. The only tag on the machine says it has a 3 ft. bed & cat.#415-YA. Skipper(1024)
There are several options. 1) go back to the wood plugs -- they were there for a reason. It probably burned up because someone ran it without oil for a while. 2) Go to a grease cup and pressure feed system. I can tell you where you can get NOS versions of these and with the new synthetic greases you will get superior lubrication. All you have to do is do a quarter turn once in a while. These are 1/8" pipe thread. ( $ 38 each ) I use them on machines I restore with plain bearings. 3) Go to a wick style oil cup there a wick runs from the oil reservoir down the oil hole to touch the shaft. Again these can be purchase in various places. 3) Go to a metered type oil cup. These have an adjustment that controls the flow of oil and keeps it to a drip every so often. This type has an adjuster on the top as well as a tiny sight glass so you can see the flow rate. The sight glass in in the pipe just where it screws into the oil hole. Yasmiin (1025)
Yasmiin, I considered all of your suggestions except re- installing the wood plugs. The customer that gave me the machine swears the oil cups were full when the bearings smoked. I fear using grease would require much more bearing clearance, losing some of my superb accuracy (am I wrong here?). The oil cups wouldn't stop the mess in the shop. (1026)
You wouldn't need more clearance if you used one of the new synthetic greases -- the fancy clear ones. They coast a bit but at the rate you would use it a tube would last a long time. They have superior wetting and adhesion properties to oil and the stuff I am talking about has a very thin consistency. If you have clearance enough to have oil going all over this grease will have plenty of clearance. The cup I am talking about has a plunger on a screw handle so the grease would be delivered under pressure. As to the wood plugs they may have sat dry for a long time and the capillaries in the wood had turned to varnish. I am not sure what type of wood to use. You might try balsa. Make a plug with it and test it by letting it sit for a while and see if the oil saturates the wood. I am trying to think of another that would work. You need something with long capillaries in it. I am thinking of willow but that would probably be hard to find and it would need to be dried first. Also there are various grades of felt. What felt did you make the plugs out of? It needs to be a very hard felt which you can get from a hard felt bob -- a polishing wheel used by jewelers. You could change your current oil cups to wick oilers by fitting a small piece of tubing in the hole with the end coming to the top of the oil cup. Then you can thread a wick through the hole and let one end lay in the oil.. Yasmiin (1028)
What oil really works?
Now that we have seen the info from SB factory on using their lubes, just why is it that automotive lubes and other types are discouraged? I haven't found any real info that says what damage occurs or function is impaired by using automotive use designated motor or gearbox oils, or other types such as power steering fluid, jack oil, hydraulic oil, STP, etc. Many of these have very good lubricity and comparable viscosity at much better availability and cost than the specified machine oils. They are also given additives to control moisture and contaminants, maintain excellent film strength, protect from corrosion and thermal damage, resist deposit formation etc. and many are very thoroughly engineered for multipurpose application. Having worked with power hydraulics and power transmission lines I have seen many oils perform quite acceptably in service other than their stated purpose and know of shops that use a very limited group of oils for many purposes, including machine lube and hydraulics. Can anybody reveal where the information is that says just why these are not acceptable for our machine tool use? (2079)
The way it was explained to me is that these automotive lubricants are not of a consistent viscosity. They are about half mineral oil and half polymers, which are used to increase viscosity with temperature. Things like atf and ep oils are not made that way, but the viscosities are not really in the ranges needed for small lathes. (Im sure some ep oils are used in the gearboxes of the big gearhead lathes) The thing they are really adamant about is the spindles of the cast iron bearinged lathes. Apparently these need the fine spindle oils, with very few additives. I have heard accounts of residue problems occurring in these bearings when other things are used. I have seen residue problems and bearing failures in steam turbines and pumps that had engine oil used in place of pure mineral oil. I shouldn't say pure mineral oil because all of these oils have some additives, typically anti foaming or corrosion inhibitors, but the additives are not half of the contents as they are in engine oils. Spindle oils are the finer varieties of the various hydraulic or turbine oils the iso 22 are almost crystal clear, and have a tendency to act as a cleaner rather than a contaminator of the bearing. If your hands are greasy you can wash them with a few squirts of spindle oil to get the heavy stuff off (easier on the skin than solvent). Just a good thing to have around the shop. RC (2083)
I would have to agree with your skepticism, though this is a subject that always seems to bring out the armed camps of "keep it original" versus the alternate lubes aficionados. If we look at this analytically, the lubricants specified by SB have been essentially the same for decades, updated only by the changes in designators by the suppliers for the same basic lubes. If you ask SB, they're going to tell you what has worked for them for those decades. Have there been any better lubes developed out there in the last forty years? You bet! Is SB going to evaluate them? Why should they? It doesn't contribute to the bottom line, and they make good money on repackaging lubricants with their own label. Here's what I've learned about the old spindle lubes - SB says you may have to loosen the spindle bearing clearance for higher speed running, and tighten it down for lower speeds. That is an attempt to compensate for the heating of the legacy lubricant specified down through the ages, and that in turn is caused by the lower lubricity of the lube over a large temperature range. If you want to be a perfectionist, then you won't mind making the adjustment every time you want to shift speeds. Gee, it's too bad someone doesn't invent a multi-weight oil, like 0-30W, huh? :-) Add a synthetic composition and you've eliminated any speed effects on bearing temperature, and essentially brought the wear to zero. There are two old arguments against using an engine lubricant - concern about "detergent" suspending "particles" in the lube - causing abnormal wear, and the same "detergent" attracting moisture and rusting your bearings. Those would be valid concerns if two conditions were met - stagnant reservoir conditions (no turnover of the lubricant) and a large exposed oil surface area to absorb moisture from the air. BTW, the "detergent" appellation is more properly a surfactant, according to my NSPE colleagues who work that stuff as a profession. Detergent is one of those terms used to describe the effect to housewives. It improves the wetting ability of the oil and, as the detractors say, it does hold contaminants in suspension rather than letting them settle out. Now, let's take a look at the spindle bearings in the SB lathes. I've seen two basic types - a couple of long replaceable sleeve bearings, and in the older lathes, line bored bearings in the cast iron of the headstock. Large plain bearing surfaces they are, excellent for absorbing periodic shocks caused by interrupted cuts and absolutely devoid of vibration patterns often introduced by roller or ball bearing spindles. In the smaller lathes, they're about the same size as a rear main bearing on a Chevy V8. Is the lubricant stagnant in the bearing? No - it continually weeps out of the two ends of each bearing on the lathes I've seen. There are a number of machine tools, including the Bridgeport mill, which utilize this type of "total loss" lubricating system. It dispenses with the need to have a pump and filter, since there is a small but constant through-flow of the spindle lube and you're constantly topping it up with fresh lube. Under those conditions, the argument of particle suspension being undesirable doesn't hold water in my mind - in fact, it seems like a good thing, rather than negative. Same goes for the water absorption. I haven't seen any significant difference in moisture absorption figures in the published specs for detergent and non-detergent lubricants, and the fact that there are many square inches of exposed oil in a typical crankcase compare to the fraction of a square inch in a SB oil cup makes me suspect this argument as well. If your SB is built differently than the ones I've seen, and have some kind of oil seals on the spindle bearings and a large open sump for the spindle lube, then maybe the SB recommendations *are* preferable. Bottom line - I've been using Mobil I engine lube in my Heavy 10 for many years. It showed a remarkable drop in bearing temperature at high speeds without exhibiting the knocking effect at low speeds you run into with the large clearances required of normal spindle lubes set up for high speeds. You simply set up the lathe for low speeds and forget it. I haven't observed any varnish or other caking product in the few times I've pulled the caps to check bearing condition, but there's no heat like a steam turbine in there to oxidize additives, either. In the last couple of years Mobil has also brought out a 90W gear lube, and I'm using it on the threading/feed gears. Wish I had had it years ago. If you want to run the old lubes in your SB, by all means do so. No one is stopping you. I'm just a little weary of the dire consequences some folks predict of using the more modern lubricants - it just isn't so if you use some common sense. If the above seems reasonable to you, then use it in your selection process. If not, use whatever you want - makes no difference to me. But, someday, I'd like to see some hard comparative wear figures and bearing condition studies from those who are so adamant about using the original 'factory' lubes. Mike (2096)
Don't know if you're right or wrong but you sure do present an intelligent argument that has me wondering! I think your last sentence sums it up. So would I! Chris (2097)
There's no magic, no voodoo. Just use the correct viscosity of quality machine oil. Don't use detergent motor oil, especially in the spindle. It will dissolve all the crud in the reservoirs and score your bearings. Proper viscosity is most important (read critical) to the spindle since it is very close tolerance. Way oil is a good choice for, well, ways. A few of us did some research back in the start of the group and located good types of oil to use. Check the message archives. Remember Seybold viscosity is NOT SAE viscosity. I ended up buying a gallon of each of the three oils (A, B, C) as well as a good way oil from McMaster-Carr. Now I can find it at any of the local industrial supply/surplus places too. I think a gallon of each will last a few years, and good quality machine oil won't go bad like some motor oils sitting on the shelf. I also picked up 4 pump oilers from HF and keep them full of the proper oils so there's no excuses not to properly maintain my machines. As an aside, I was curious about the characteristics of way-oil, so I dribbled a little on the running tumbler gear train and watched it run. It was real "stringy" as it clung to and between the gears. I guess it really will stick to the ways of your lathe or mill for that matter. Paul R. (2100)
Cone pulley oil port thread
My 9", 10R or whatever it turns out to be is missing the screw plug in the oiling port on the cone pulley. Does anyone know the size/type/where to locate one of these? From the looks of things the previous owner may have lost it some time ago, belt pretty oiled up (should I use naphtha to clean it or just buy a new one on E-bay? I haven't used it yet (adding finishing touches to my "metal shop" (an 8' X 8' room I just made in the corner of my barn) but am getting close! Tim Q (2153)
It's a little more than a set screw. I think it's got a smaller diameter shaft with a 60 degree point on it to stop against a mating seat and close the grease hole. My memory's vague on this one, though. If I'm correct, A standard set screw would not seat properly and/or mess up the seat. Paul R. (2155)
You know, that's always bugged me too. I figured either "OIL" was what they used to use and it was a poor choice, or "OIL" was a verb meaning "apply lubrication here". Either way, these old machines can sometimes be pain in the arse. If we just had a group member who was a machinist in the '20s all would be clear to us. Paul R. (2161)
Here's a photo of the one from a Heavy 10. The thread on this one is standard 1/4-20. Mike (2181)
I hope you actually used Teflon grease and not oil in the cone pulley, as oil will leak out and foul the drive belt. Paul R. (2618)
That is very strange as with my model a 9" it says oil and that is what I have always used since 1967 and it stays in. JWE
(2624)
Yes indeed it does say "OIL" and the manual calls for Teflon grease there as well as in the quill and the thrust bearing. Go figure. I guess you get just the right amount in there. Paul R. (2626)
Teflon grease in the cone pulley and back gear quill sleeve? Do you guys thread in a temporary grease fitting and pump it in? Tim Q. (2628)
Tim, If you look in the files section, there is a description and picture of a grease fitting you can make that will simplify the greasing of the cone pulley. The older lathes have "OIL" on the cone pulley but this was in the days before Teflon grease was around. South Bend Lathe now recommends the use of Teflon grease. Older lathes that still have excellent fit between the cone pulley and the spindle will retain the oil longer but it will work out more quickly that the grease will. I don't like using grease in the thrust bearing. This is because I am concerned that the grease will capture and retain grit and chips more readily that oil will. Plus you can flush out the thrust bearing with more oil to clean it. The cone pulley's bearing surfaces are protected and grit and chips can't get in there but the bearing is open. But that is my preference. Webb (2629)
My lubrication chart for SB 9" 10-k, dated 1965, states: Back Gear Spindle cone, use Teflon Grease Lubricant, ROY DEAN #DE112, Dearborn Michigan; or SB Cat No CE1625 which is a small aluminum foil tube of 1 or 2 oz size of Teflon grease. Lubricate annually. This tube of grease was supplied to me with the lathe, when purchased new in 1966. My spindle cone pulley has a removable set screw, and on the pulley surface is stamped "grease" and not "oil". Just how the grease distributes through the cone pulley-spindle assembly I do not know. My guess is that the Teflon grease recommendation is a post WW2 thing to reduce the likely hood of a oil soaked belt and associated flinging of oil on the operator etc. Also I am not sure if Teflon was available before WW2. As to the thrust bearing, the lube chart shows no information. Perhaps the slight flinging from the spindle main bearings is sufficient. I have occasionally hit it with a oil pump can using SB machine light (100 Saybolt@100deg) spindle oil, SB supplied. Rich (2639)
If a survey is allowed here, I wonder what the vote results would be for this question. What is the best lubricant for a old (1947) 9" SBL cone pulley ? (90 W non detergent oil) or ( a synthetic based grease lube w/teflon ) Thanks guys. I'm trying to end a argument with a bullhead down the street. Barrie (2840)
Teflon based grease gets my vote. 1) SB recommends this even though the older units are stamped for oil. 2) Grease doesn't sling out the ends as oil does, particularly on a worn lathe. Stan (2852)
Which permatex grease for cone pulley?
I went to the permatex website for some info on this grease and could not find "Super Lube". Can you be a bit more specific about the grease name and type and possibly supply a p/n from the tube South Bend sent you? They have a PTFE grease called "Permatex Ultra Slick Synthetic Multi-Purpose Lubricant with PTFE". Is this what you got? There webpage for specialty lubricants is: http://www.permatex.com/products/prodidx.asp?f_call=get_itemitem_no=81943 (3830)
I think the stuff you cite looks fine. The grease that I put in my spindle cone pulley is also called "Super Lube" and is available from Enco for $4.75 in a 3-oz. tube. Check out: www.use-enco.com , and look up model number 505-1174 . It is sold under the "Loctite" brand name. My spindle pulley doesn't get hot when I run in back gear, so I believe that the grease I am using is OK. Jon (3836)
Here it is Permatex part number: 82325 Permatex Name: SUPER LUBE Gray 3oz. tube with green, blue, orange, and yellow banner under the super lube name. Tube says that it is a Multi-Purpose Synthetic-Based Lubricant with Teflon. Other than this I don't know what else to say except don't order it from Southbend. If you do you will hate yourself in the morning. shod contacted Southbend with the very same question and they would not give out with any information. I finally ended up ordering the lube from them and paid a very high price ($22.50, including shipping) for a tube of grease I could have gotten here in town for less than two dollars. What I got from Southbend was a tube of "Super Lube" produced by Permatex. When I received it from Southbend it was in the original Permatex packaging. (3839)
Best thing since sliced bread its clear and synthetic so no nasty varnish on your machine or on you. My local good hardware store stopped carrying it probably because StaLube offered them a great deal. Anyway I bought some from MSC a couple of weeks ago. Its at your place 2nd day. Yasmiin (3841)
Interestingly, Super-Lube packages for private labels as well. "South Bend Lathe Lube"? Jon Spear wrote: I think this is the same product that all of us have been talking about: http://www.super-lube.com/ This is what I have. It is cheap. And, if you go to their website above, they will send you a FREE 1/2 oz. sample, which should be enough for you to fill your spindle cone pulley. Jon (3844)
I've been using Slick 50 "One Grease" with PTFE for my lathe grease, it comes in a standard grease gun cartridge. I think I got it at Pep Boys or CarQuest, AutoZone didn't have it the last time I looked. Permatex SuperLube is also good. You should be able to find one or the other at a local parts store. Stan (3854)
Yet another source: McMaster-Carr 1378K31 Synthetic Grease with PTFE, 3 oz tube, $4.97 Seems to be the same type of stuff everybody else is talking about, Synco SUPER LUBE. Probably no need to get it from McMaster-Carr if you can find it or something like it at a local store, though. I bought it because I was placing an order with them and had not yet found any other sources for it. Paul R. (3856)
Model C spindle lubrication
Got my well-worn 1942 vintage Model C running, and have noticed that the oil level in the rear headstock bearing keeps dropping. I have heard the Model C oiling system referred to as a "total loss" system, which I suppose means that there is no oil reservoir, however the front bearing level never seems to go down. Is this normal or do I have some sort of problem here? I have not had the spindle out so I don't know if the bearings are bronze or cast iron. Nothing overheats and I have been using #20 hydraulic oil. Mike. (3898)
I can think of a couple of reasons you may be having trouble. Normally, the rear oil reservoir shouldn't be loosing oil that quickly but things can go wrong. I will set out what I know like this: 1) If you are losing oil while running, then I would say that you have a blocked oil return passage way or breather hole and the oil is "pumping" out. 2) If you are losing oil while it is sitting, then you have a leak in the rear reservoir. Is it leaking around the oil cup or from somewhere else? I had this on one of the SBL's I had a few years back. Check to see if oil is coming out of the headstock casting around the reversing tumbler. If it is, then the reservoir was drilled too deep and it has broken into the hole bored for the reversing tumbler. This was my problem and I repaired it by stripping the headstock (spindle, reversing tumbler, wick and oil cup), cleaning all traces of oil from the rear oil reservoir, and dripping a small amount of epoxy into the reservoir to seal the hole. I used some masking tape to seal the other side of the leak in the hole for the reversing tumbler. I mixed-up a small amount of J-B Weld and placed a small blob (about the size of my little fingernail) on the end of a popsicle stick. While working inside the rear bearing, I poised the blob-on-a-stick above the reservoir hole. Then, I used a heat gun to heat the blob so that it would liquefy and drip off of the popsicle stick and into the reservoir. By the next morning, the epoxy was hard and the leak was sealed. Webb (3899)
Normally, the rear oil reservoir shouldn't be loosing oil that quickly but things can go wrong. I will set out what I know like this: have a blocked oil return passage way or breather hole and the oil is "pumping" out. in the rear reservoir. Is it leaking around the oil cup or from somewhere else? Hello, Thanks for the reply. The oil level drops when running but not standing still. I ran a wire through the hole just above the oil cup and it seems to be clear, and I don't see any leakage around the tumbler shaft. It looks like it is leaking around the left bearing cap, does this mean the spindle has to come out? Mike. (3910)
It sounds like the oil return passageways are blocked. This means that the spindle has to come out (Or, just keep oiling it a lot). As I recall, there are two oil return passages; one at either end of the bearing. And access to them is had only after the spindle is out of the way. If you check the archives, I think there should be information on spindle removal (I posted one long ago). If you can't find it, contact me off-line and I'll "fix you up." Sorry but I'm tired and I want to get to bed. Webb (3911)
My Model C spindle came out fairly easy after reading some of the posts on the subject, pretty straight forward. Matt (3920)
I don't know about your model C being a total loss system, but I wanted to pass on some information that I received from Permatex that might be helpful to you and the Group. Dear Mr. Pell, Regrettably, Permatex has not sold Super Lube items for about three years. We, here at Permatex, are currently reintroducing a new synthetic lubricant. It will be under the branding, Ultra Slick(R), however the product features and benefits will be similar and in many cases of superior quality to the Super Lube. This product is available and can be special ordered at your local Permatex distributor. Here is some of the information regarding these new Permatex(R) UltraSlick(R) products:#81943-11 oz. aerosol, #81944-14 oz. cartridge, #81945-1 lb tub, #81946-3oz. tube I hope this will assist you in your efforts. Best regards,Volker Fremuth Director Marketing Communications Permatex, Inc. (3922)
As I recall, there are two oil return passages; one at either end of the bearing. And access to them is had only after the spindle is out of the way. If you check the archives, I think there should be information on spindle removal (I posted one long ago). If you can't find it, contact me off-line and I'll "fix you up." OK, thanks. It's not leaking too bad yet and I really just wanted to know if this is a "don't even think about running it" type of problem or if it could wait. I'm making some parts on it that need to be ready yesterday so I will just keep oiling it for now. Mike. (3930)
Bearing grease?
I am ready to put the spindle back in my 10k, and I am not sure what type of grease to use on the ball bearings at the left side of the cone pulleys, especially since it is essentially an open race? Do I use the same grease I use for the cone pulleys - Super Lube? Is there a more current list of recommended lubricants than the 1940's How To Run A Lathe? I have been reading through the archives from the beginning (I only on msg #850, so I have a ways to go) and I noticed that automotive oils are not recommended. If for example, a Mobil 1 synthetic oil with its great "cling" ability meets the SUS ratings, what is it that makes it unsuitable for use on the lathe? (Asking as a newbie, not to be controversial). Scott (4630)
Generally speaking, you don't want to use automotive-type oils on a machine tool because of the detergents. Automotive oils have detergents to suspend foreign matter so it can be trapped by the oil filter. In a machine tool, you don't want foreign matter suspended, but would rather have it settle out. Also, there are additives in automotive oils to counteract the effect of combustion products. I don't know whether or not these are harmful in and of themselves, but they are not needed in a machine tool application. The bearing you are talking about is the thrust bearing. In practice, I have found that mine stays plenty oily, probably from oil coming out of the cone pulley area. I don't use grease in the cone pulley either by the way. I seem to be able to fill it with about 30 to 50 drops of 20 wt machine oil and it runs quietly (no clicking) and smoothly for quite some time before needing a refill. You can get machine oils from McMaster-Carr or industrial lubrication suppliers. There was a big discussion of lubrication on this group; check the archives. Mike (4639)
Mike, I have been reading through the archives from the beginning - I don't have a lot of luck with the search, as a lot of times the message subjects don't necessarily reflect the message subject. Scott (4640)
Automotive oils are designed (or compounded) with a detergent action so crud is kept in suspension to be removed by the oil filter. Our toys usually don't have a circulation system with an oil filter so we are better off with a lube that allows the crud to settle out; not keep it in suspension. John (4669)
Lubricating backgear shaft
Thanks to all the info here I got three gallons of Mobil products for types A, B and C. Got three new oil applicators (cans) and oiled everything according to the oilchart.pdf. One question. Where is the backgear shaft oiled? I see the reference to the Teflon stuff on the chart for drive belt cone and the backgears but nothing about the backgear shaft. Anyone no where to put the oil? Jim (5218)
I just went in the basement to look at my lathe and learned two things: 1. There is a screw on the backgear shaft. Remove it and squeeze the lube in there from the tube. If it seems dry I would remove the whole shaft and lube it up real good. It comes apart pretty easy. 2. Don't walk near your machine barefoot. Especially with metal chips you might have missed the last time you cleaned. Ouch! Alex (5221)
I asked for comments on my choice of lubricants here and no one replied. So what did you end up using? I'm using Velocite light spindle oil (ISO22) for A, plain old non detergent 20wt for B, and medium way oil (ISO 66) for C. It was mostly guesswork on my part, but "guess" I'll stick with it unless there is a good reason for other choices. smt (5233)
I'm using Slick 50 PFTE grease for the backgear and cone pulley on the spindle on both my 9 and 13 inchers. Stan (5235)
When ever I'm out of oil or in doubt I find your never far from wrong to use compressor oil and we always seem to have a couple bottles of that kicking around. (5236)
How about 3 in one oil, used for the old sewing machines. Clint(5237)
Clint; 3in1 isn't a particularly good oil in the shop, it tends to get gummy. 10, 20, and 30 wt. non detergent motor oils are available at most auto and tractor supply places. South Bend changed to recommending Teflon grease for cone pulleys and back gear shafts many years ago. If you do need a good oil for small mechanisms, Nye oil, available from Fargo Camera Repair, is very good. The Singer sewing machine oil and thin grease are both pretty good as well. Stan (5238)
Stan That's good to know. Clint(5239)
That sounds reasonable. Believe it or not, I drained the compressor yesterday while playing "machine-tool checkers" (if i jump this machine over there, and squeeze that one into this slot here, and move this junk out, can I fit one more in here before SWMBO notices...). Today, went to fill it up and did not have as many qts on the shelf as expected (lubriplate AC-2A). Let's say (hypothetical, mind) that I would need to use this tonight and tomorrow, Sunday, and can't get anymore actual compressor oil until Monday. Is hydraulic oil a reasonable (safe) substitute to top up the remaining qt. in a 2.5 qt sump? smt (5241)
Same thing I have been using for about 35 years now. 30wt non detergent motor oil from Pep Boys. I use it for all lube points on lathe and mill. JWE (5244)
Compressor oil or hydraulic oil is 150 AW or 20wt non detergent motor oil. JWE (5245)
I finally took some time to dig out the info and respond. When I first got my 1941 9" model A, I did a lot of research with much help from Big Tom. I ended up being totally anal and got the following from McMaster-Carr: A: Mobil Velocite No.10 Spindle Bearing Oil, ISO22/SUS107. B: Turbine Oil, ISO32/SAE10W/SUS155. C: Multipurpose Machine Oil, ISO68/SAE20/SUS325. Way: Light way oil, ISO68/SAE20/SUS325. Teflon grease for the cone pulley and quill shaft. Note that I got way oil to use specifically for the ways, instead of just using type C oil there too. The way oil is really tacky. I tried an experiment and put some way oil on the end gears and you could see the strings of oil between the gears. I am happy I'm using a separate way oil and not just the type C oil. I've seen the same oils at machine tool places so these oils should be available in just about every major city. Paul R. (5246)
In the files section there is a short paper on lubricant nomenclature. I ordered everything from ENCO. The names in the paper matched exactly what ENCO was selling. The stuff was relatively cheap. Jim (5280)
Apron Lubrication
The continuing saga of my 1953 13" SB restoration. I finally got the apron off of my saddle tonight and started taking things apart and looking them over. First obvious thing: the half nuts have been worn to almost twice their original clearance. I can't think of any good way to make new ones, so I'm left with either buying new parts ($$$) or maybe Moglice? Anyhow, on to the question - the apron seems to be lubricated by a network of felt strips connected to a central reservoir. Does anyone know if there's a particular material I should use to replace these strips? What about a diagram of the routing of these strips - my parts book shows nothing about them, they're not even in the parts list. Jeff (5295)
There was an article in Home Shop Machinist several months ago about half nut restoration. The gist of it is: Make an L shaped bracket that you can chuck in a four jaw. Mount your half nuts on the protruding part of the L bracket. Line them up using the Acme tap you will have purchased and the tailstock. Bore out the old threads. Remove the half nuts leaving the L bracket in the chuck. Braze in new material where the thread needs to be. (I found furnace patching material works well as a dam to keep the brass from running out.) Return the half nuts to the bracket. Make new threads. Glen (5303)
I'd forgotten about that article - I pulled out the issue and looked it over - the instructions seem to completely skip the brazing portion, and I don't have any experience with that. Seems pretty doable, although my 13" machine has a cam-driven sliding gib setup for the half nut as opposed to the rotating version of the smaller machines. I'm also considering using Moglice. Aside from the hassle of the disassembly/reassembly of the apron, that might be a pretty easy way to go. I guess I'll have to see how I feel once I get everything back together. Jeff (5318)
Jeff, Regarding using Moglice to repair the half nut threads: I've only read about Moglice, but have never actually used or even seen it, but my impression is that it is an epoxy based material loaded with some kind of stabilizing filler material (powdered iron, aluminum...) just like ' J-B Weld'. It is intended for use where you have a fairly large contact area thus having a relatively low load (PSI). It seems to me that in the half nut application you have a much more concentrated area where the load is applied resulting in a higher local force. (again, think pounds of force applied divided by the area over which it is applied). I would be concerned that it might not hold up that well. On the other hand, for light duty, infrequent home shop use, it might work just fine. It sure would be easier, and if it didn't hold up, you could always remove it and go the brazing route. An interesting project either way. Mario (5320)
Spindle Oil
I've followed with interest the spindle oil debate where SBL recommended vs Mobil 1 0w-30. As I've got a heavy 10 in bits myself I'll have to make up my mind which one to use soon. Here in New Zealand the available Mobil 1 is 0w-40 and 5w-50. What I would like to ask is do the Mobil 1 advocates see any problem with 0w-40 instead of 0w-30?. From what I understand about multi-grade oils the SAE rating does not necessarily indicate the true viscosity of the oil - It's more a spec thing stating this oil has the properties of ,say, 0w-40. Where this viscosity business has led me I'm not sure but any opinions on the use of 0w-40 from the Mobil 1 fans (or anybody) would be much appreciated. Dave (6322)
My light 10 (10k) intermittently throws oil from the small (far left) headstock bearing. Running fine about 4 hours yesterday and six today. Then all of a sudden all the oil was in the chip pan. Two questions: 1. Would running Mobil 10 w 30 in any way solve this problem or would it harm the spindle? I am currently using Mobil medium (10) spindle oil. 2. I am reluctant to pull the spindle to check the oil return system. Can it be blown clean with compressed air? I can get at the outboard return hole if I take off the nut. I've flushed the thing with lots of kerosene - doesn't seem to make a difference. Bearing does not run hot (note even warm). Any ideas? Frank (6323)
Dave, The first number indicates how the oil behaves at low temperature, the second indicates how it acts at elevated temperatures. Usually oils that share the same first number are made from the same viscosity base-stock. The second number is achieved with additives that modify how much the oil thins at temperature. Since motor oil normally operates around 190 deg F in an engine, and even hotter in certain areas (i.e.: around the exhaust valves) we are definitely operating at the low to mid end of the oil's range. Therefore, I'd expect that there would be no noticeable difference between 0w-30 and 0w-40 for lathe use. c (6325)
Frank. I don't know any way of cleaning it out without removing the spindle. Some weeping is normal and is essential, especially to lubricate the thrust bearing. No, it won't solve the problem - only cleaning out the passages will accomplish that. No, it won't hurt the spindle - you'll just have to top off the oil cups more often and it will get a bit messy. If you want to be a purist about the viscosity and you do a lot of high speed running, then I would personally use a 0W-30 synthetic - Mobil isn't the only choice here, just the most convenient in the US. The SB recommended ISO 22 corresponds to a 5W-10W SAE viscosity, so a lower number will allow bearing clearances toward the lower end of the SB recommended range, which in turn will minimize deflection moving from heavy to light cuts. Corey had a good explanation of the viscosity numbers, but my understanding is simply reversed - the lower number represents the hot viscosity and the upper number is what the lubricant exhibits at low temperatures. Makes no huge difference - the multiweight oils have significantly lower change in viscosity with temperature variations than the single weights. Life is hard... :-) Bite the bullet and remove the spindle. You'll learn something about your lathe and feel a sense of accomplishment as well. Follow the advice written by some other excellent posters here on what to label, shims to keep track of, etc. Just says your lubricant, bearing clearance, and normal turning speeds are appropriate for your type of turning. If you're happy with it (except for the sudden consumption rate), then your only incentive to change might be minimizing further wear with a synthetic. BTW, there are a number of synthetic turbine oils out that are single grade if you are paranoid about using a lowly engine motor oil. :-) They are, however, optimized for rolling element bearings, not the large plain bearings used in engines and the SB lathes. Mike (6327)
What about the argument that motor oil can emulsify moisture which is boiled out at engine operating temps and that since our lathes never reach engine operating temp the moisture remains in the oil and hence we are lubricating with an oil/water mix. The second argument against motor oil I've heard is that the detergent additives emulsify dirt particles and keep them in the oil until they can be filtered out...and that since lathes don't have filters, the particles never get filtered out. The crux of these arguments is that for lathe use, an oil that will not absorb water and that will flush away rather than suspend dirt is desired...essentially a non detergent machine oil. I am by no means an expert in this area, I'm just re-presenting arguments I've heard on the Home Shop Machinist board. I like the idea of oil optimized for plain bearings...but I can't help thinking that an oil optimized for a high temp, filtered, pressure supplied lubrication system may not be best for my lathe. I plan to use Amsoil synthetic lubes for my lathe...their only downside is expense and they are only available in 5 gallon quantities. The other thing I can't help thinking is if I rig a pressurized supply and filter can I turn my spindle at 11000 rpm like my motorcycle engine? (I'm joking...well half joking:) (6332)
I've heard both of these arguments and have some difficulties with their credibility from a physics perspective. The moisture absorption argument apparently stems from the well documented creation of 'interesting' but unhelpful compounds in an automotive engine with long use, but the environment is vastly different there, as was pointed out. First, there are large surface areas of the lubricant exposed to an atmosphere which is saturated with moisture due to blowby of the combustion gases for the first twenty minutes or so of running. That oil is splashed and slung around inside the crankcase in all kinds of forms, including mist, and until the engine gets up to temperature, can absorb significant amounts of moisture as a result. It seems to me that the salient question here is how much lubricant surface area is exposed to moisture in a typical SB lathe sump? Not very much... The second argument runs into a logic problem for the simple reason that all the SB spindle bearings I've seen don't run with flexible seals - as I pointed out in past notes, it's for a reason - you cannot keep fine swarf and belt particles out without expensive labyrinth and wiping seals, so a slow but steady flow past the edge of the bearing provides a positive flushing action at a fraction of the cost - the SB engineers were no dummies. That system is used on countless tools, including Bridgeport mills with their expensive angular contact ball bearings. In that kind of scenario, a surfactant would in fact seem desirable. Many of these arguments began 50 years ago with the temptation to use early detergent motor oils, but I'm not sure they all apply today. I began using the Mobil synthetic about 20 years ago, and since then I have measured the bearing clearance several times and torn down the headstock a couple of times to look at their condition. The clearance has not changed perceptibly on my Hardinge tenths dial indicator, but perhaps I'm just lucky. In thinking about it, there would appear to be two primary performance criteria for spindle lube: 1) Minimize wear so that the bearing clearance is constant over the life of the bearing, and 2) Accommodate the entire range of turning speeds without overheating on the high end or failing due to interrupted cut shock on the low end. As long as a lubricant does those things, I'm happy with it. So far, the Mobil I has accomplished that, but check back with me in another twenty years and I'll let you know if there is any discernible trend. :-) Completely apart from the physics, it seems to me that if one wishes to be super cautious about it, twisting the oil cups 180 degrees to dump the oil in the sump every one to six months (depending on one's level of paranoia) answers both of these arguments, as well as concerns about oxidation and most of the other debating points I've heard over the years. Both RCM and this reflector have numerous anecdotes about folks running everything from automatic transmission fluid to compressor oil, which simply demonstrates to me how forgiving plain bearings are, especially compared with ball or roller bearings. Obviously, if it is convenient to buy a five gallon can of synthetic ISO 22 spindle oil, that's as good as you can get. With the couple of ounces we normally use every few months in home shops it would last a long time. In the final analysis, it's a matter of personal comfort level, and each person needs to use what makes sense for his unique situation. Mike (6333)
If you check with (SAE) Society of Automotive Engineers you will find that hydraulic and compressor oils are 100% non detergent and are free from the majority of additives that are normally used in automotive oils. I have a very good big old Websters 2 stage compressor in my shop. Then engine is 1902 and likely the compressor is the same vintage. It has the original paint and I swear it looks like it has never been taken apart. Point is, if this compressor can run 100 years using compressor oil, I'd say it's fine for my lathe. If this wasn't a lathe chat line I would post a (proof of the pudding) picture of this grand old compressor. (6341)
August was just summarizing the major arguments for avoiding engine oil, jax. I'm sure everyone here believes you - I certainly do - and a picture is not needed for that purpose. I'd love to see a photo just because I like old machines, though - you CAN post photos to this group, unlike many reflectors. It would be interesting to compare service parameters between a compressor and a plain bearing spindle, since you also need to lubricate rings and other sliding elements, and bearing loadings may be somewhat different, but I have no doubt whatsoever that 'compressor' oil (and IIRC there is some definitional ambiguity in the SAE specs for that term, BTW) of the right viscosity would work fine in a SB lathe. Getting the right viscosity is the key, as far as I'm concerned. This is one subject that always seems to develop a lot of heat for no apparent reason, and most of the positions that spring up seem to be based on arguments that are interesting in the abstract but ignore experience such as yours (and mine, for that matter) and are pretty light on solid values of wear rates, bearing temperature comparisons, or any other relevant factor that an engineer can get his teeth into. Not sure why that is. Anyway, we've probably run this far into the ground (for the moment - it will pop up again for sure.) Mike (6344)
Mike, I will post a picture of the compressor in a couple of days also a very old unique pair of pliers that I haven't got a clue what they are used for . I must have asked a jillion mechanics and machinists over the years and no one knows. Anyway back to oils, I have been using Delo 15/40 in my vehicles for many many years. About 10 years ago while taking a course, 3 days of the course were on different oils. A member of the SAE was on hand doing the instructing. Later I asked him what type of oil he used in his truck. said he was not allowed to say but that he used the same as I did !! I use in in my diesel truck, wife's car MX6 Mazda and my gas motor home. A ton of guys tell me I'm nuts to use it in a gas motor but it sure works for me. I put 370K miles on a 351 Ford Windsor engine and when I sold it I still had 23 lbs. vacuum and 110 lbs. compression across the board. The rest of the van was wore right out. (6345)
I use the same thing, even in my mowers, I own a Earthmoving business, and have been using it in my equipment and I use it in all vehicles whether gas or diesel. I have never yet wore out an engine. I run the straight 30 wt in the machinery and the 15/40 in my cars and pickups. (Delo 400 ) Clint (6346)
Changing my oil after a trillian revs
I just turn my cups upside-down and let all the oil run out? Then what? I have been using a recommended light spindle-oil from MSC. Some of you have requested the working addy for the Pat's M/W site. I urge you to go there if you have not been there before: http://www.angelfire.com/ks/mcguirk/metalworklinks.html  There is enough stuff there to build a planet! Ron (6336)
Ron Lippard wrote: Turn the oil cups back to vertical and fill them up with fresh lubricant again! :-) Takes all of a couple of minutes. I usually run the spindle for a few minutes with no chuck on it to make sure there is no vapor lock - the natural pumping action of the felt to spindle surface will get rid of that if there is any. On the later lathes it's probably a good idea to remove the hex setscrews in the front holes to facilitate this venting process. The earlier lathes just have small holes in the front of the headstock for that purpose. The drainback holes at the edge of each bearing help that process as well. Like I said, whatever works for you is what's important. I have never believed that the originally specified spindle lube is bad for the lathe. The discussion centered around whether there were alternatives that offered any specific benefits, and any of the synthetics do offer lower temperatures and longer bearing life. For most of us in the hobby category, I doubt that it makes much difference. Mike (6339)
Lubricating the 10K quick-change gearbox
I have just finished rebuilding my quick-change gearbox. Much to my dismay, I discovered that the two oil cups only lube the bearings. the gears seem to be left to their own devices. This explains why the gears are galled. I decided to try a lube from MSC called "Cling Open Gear and Wire Rope Oil". It is very messy to apply, and you should make a nozzle (hose) to spray the stuff. It comes in an aerosol can and is dissolved in a carrier, which evaporates very quickly, leaving a rather thick lube on the gears. The MSC part# is 317368838. I will report on the success that I have had, and would be interested in any other solutions that you have. Also, MSC has a great assortment of oilers, at a lower price than LeBlond. (7037)
Any of many brands of motorcycle chain lube [I use PJ1]. Probably the same stuff. Sprays on, dries stiff, doesn't fly off, and if I run out, is available at the local bike shop. (7041)
All of these sprays contain "stickies" to make the oil/grease adhere. Won't the stickies ruin the wick system? I found I can reach under the casting and smear grease on the change gears with my fingers. Frank (7050)
Oil leaking from clutch wheel
I've completed the restoration of my 13" x 6' lathe and am now in the process of testing/aligning it and breaking it in (I'll be posting pictures soon...) One thing that's shown up right away is an oil leak that puddles under the saddle. It looks like the leak is coming from the clutch shaft, which makes sense as the fit is not super-tight, and the shaft is under the "water line" of the oil reservoir. Is this normal? I had to pump in half a gallon of oil to fill that sucker up - maybe I shouldn't have filled it like they said to do? The clutch is kind of funny. There's the star wheel itself, then a nut - both of which seem to tighten up at the same time as you rotate the wheel. Should one or the other be tight - say the nut against the wheel, or the nut against the apron - when the clutch isn't engaged? Jeff (7599)
I expect your 13" clutch arrangement is like my Heavy Ten. I recently examined mine and on the lower back of the apron is a gasket covering the oil reservoir. It may be the gasket is leaking and needs replacement. I expect the oil that circulates thru the clutch discs drips back into this reservoir and not below the lathe. Walt (7604)
If it's set up like a 9/10K apron where the gasket is between the apron casting and a sheet metal guard, i used Permatex Liquid Aviation Gasket Sealant [the same stuff as old Indian Head Gasket Shellac] from the local auto-parts store and didn't need a replacement gasket. The stuff cleans off with alcohol. (7606)
Good advice, but it's not the gasket. That was my first thought, but I replaced it when I re-built the lathe. I tightened up the screws, cleaned up the oil and held a paper towel over the whole pan for 5 minutes or so - as it turns out the oil was coming from the clutch shaft (as I wrote in my first message) I checked it this morning and the leak had subsided for the most part. I tightened up the nut against the apron, and I think that slowed down the flow. I'm still not sure if it's normal or not. I'd be curious if others have the same problem. Jeff (7608)
Gear Box Oiling
My oiling booklet mentions that the gearbox lever should be in the left-most hole for oiling, however, it shows only the single lever box. For the two lever box, should both levers be in their left-most positions? Also, is spindle oil ok for the gearbox? John (9368)
I would use the same lubricant that is recommended for the gearbox bearings: heavy-medium bearing oil. Spindle oil is a little light. If you want hard industrial theory, a specialty gear lubricant should be used on gears. Right or wrong, I've been squirting oil into the lever hole of my 1942 SB heavy 10 and ignoring the position of the lever. After all these years, there is so much oil in there, dripping into the cake pan I have set under the gearbox, that I doubt it matters. But, then there are purists in the crowd that actually understand what each lever does and the importance of each position. If you must be sure, for your own peace of mind, remove the gearbox from the lathe, turn it over and exercise the levers through each position. If you are good with a mirror and a flashlight it might not be necessary to remove the gearbox. Note where the oil hole sits in relation to the internal gearing and determine where the position for getting the oil in the most advantageous place would be. My view is that, except for the lathe spindle, any lubricant applied often is better than none because the work we do as amateurs places few stressful demands on our equipment. In the industrial environment, I hired lubrication specialists to advise and followed their recommendations or things ground to a stop at inopportune times. That's why you see automatic, calibrated lube systems on heavy equipment. This hobby is fun because common sense can prevail and will usually keep our equipment going 100 years. Dave (9374)
Apron oil reservoir - how much liquid?
The SB lubrication guide suggests to drain and flush out the apron oil reservoir once a month. My lathe won't see all that much duty, so I doubt I'll do it that frequently. I am trying to flush it out now with kerosene. So my question is this: how much oil is usually required to fully fill this reservoir either for lubrication and/or flushing out? As usual, I'd don't want to take it all apart, so I'd rather tap into all that collective wisdom out there for an answer. John (9388)
I haven't measured the volume, but it is not very much. I just flushed the reservoir on my 10K and I think I put in about 20cc of kero from my squeeze bottle. Surprisingly little. Frank (9394)
Frank, That's what I found, only a tiny amount of liquid seemed to be held in the oil reservoir there. I flushed out less than 1/20 of a baby food jar full (like those interesting measurement units?) of kerosene and thought it too little, hence my original query. John (9396)
Quick change Gearbox lubrication
I have just removed the quick change gearbox from my 1957 SB 9inch toolroom lathe in order to inspect and clean it. I found a little wear on the gears but nothing dramatic. I also found very little sign of oil on the gears. I cleaned all the gears with a paint brush using varsol. I rotated them as I was brushing the varsol on and everything came out nice and clean. I flushed varsol through the two oil caps with a syringe and found that they fed the bearings for some of the gears. I used compressed air and blew it all dry then put the appropriate lubricant into the oilers. I see next to no oil working its way through to the gears when turning it over by hand. I am sure that with the machine running it will improve but over all it appears to be a poor method of lubrication to expect oil to seep through all that gearing. Does anyone use a mirror in order to direct some oil onto the gears from below the gearbox? With a flexible nozzle oil can it would be relatively easy just to be sure that everything is thoroughly oiled. Am I being to fussy? Will trace amounts of oil be enough? (9685)
Lots of oil on the gears means lots of oil thrown off when the machine is running. A film of oil on all of the surfaces is all that is needed. If, of course, not enough oil comes out of the oil passages to coat the shafts and gears, then the problem is likely the wicks in the oil passages of the QC box. Oil flows through wicks where the oil passages intersect the shafts and at a few of the intersections of the drilled oil passages. Oil will oxidize into soft varnish if given enough time (or heat). My 1950 had rock hard wicks throughout the machine. I replaced all of the wicks (except the spindle oil-lift wicks) with hard felt (Grade F-3). That worked for me. (9687)
On a 9-inch, I've heard from several sources that only the bushings are oiled from that one little oiler on top...the left-side bushings maybe...the ones on the right I suspect are on their own. I just take a squeeze bottle and spew some Harley Semi-Synthetic Transmission lube [Harley transmissions use the same type of straight-tooth spur gears as our beloved althes' QC boxes] all up inside the box and on all the bushing felts visible from the end. One of these days maybe I'll get _real_ energetic and fit it with a whole row of oilers on top to feed each gear...granted, too much oil makes a mess in the drip pan [that's what the drip pan is for]--but too little causes permanent wear to expensive parts. I've seen one gear box so worn the teeth were worn to a sharp edge and were a slop[-fit on the shaft...yet the wicks and bushings were almost dripping oil. I wonder what would happen if one were to fit a sheetmetal guard to the bottom of the box like the one on the back of the apron and just fill the box to the lowest plunger hole with oil? How fast would it leak [or spew] out? I've heard some folks advocate greasing the gears. I wonder what happens after a few years when that grease is all full of swarf and dirt? No, thanks. Oil is cheap and the drip pan is paid for. (9690)
Most of us do not enjoy a trip to the dentist, but as a result of my visits I have accumulated a number of new tooth brushes. These trusty tools are excellent for lubricating the gear train in the head of my Southbend 10 K. Use whatever lubricant you choose and I would recommend that you run the gears through their passes by hand, not under power as they would surely make short work of that lovely tooth brush and may even shorten your finger too. Desmond (9694)
It's a bad idea to grease them. It was done with my lathe so I continued the tradition in the change gear cover without thinking. As time went by it got noisier and noisier, despite cleaning and regreasing. A few months ago I dismantled the whole lathe (for a different project) and cleaned the gears with thinners and brass brushes. Some on the softer metals I machined made this STUFF that piles up in the roots of the gear teeth, rendering proper lash adjustment impossible. After the cleaning and a return to 10 spindle oil, the washing machine in the next room is louder than my old lathe, no kidding. No more "Air raid siren". I likewise did the same with the feed gear train in the apron and the QC Gearbox, and it was well worth the (filthy) chore. I assume it was never cleaned completely in its fifty year history, so it should be about due again thirty years after some nephew inherits the lathe! (9710)
Grease fittings in lathe
I noticed grease zerks in the headstock of a 10L that belongs to a friend of mine that is a machinist by trade. Anyone with any ideas on the advantages/disadvantages of this? My understanding has always been to never use grease on a machine tool because it holds chips, trash, etc. ken (10325)
A Zerk fitting on a machine does not automatically mean that grease is the only type lubricant that can be used. I have a Bridgeport mill and a lathe that are fitted with Zerks and oil is specified by the manufacturer. Oil guns are hard to find and not cheap, but can be made from a grease gun by sealing the bottom screw cap and filling with oil. Add a dip tube to avoid having to hold it up to pump. RichD (10329)
Changing Oil in Apron
I'd like to flush the oil in the apron of my SB9A, but I'm not getting the reaction I'm expecting. I pulled the plug on the bottom of the apron (nothing came out) and went to fill the elbow-style oil cap on the front of the apron. The oil never went down in the oil cap. I installed a 1/8" barbed fitting where the plug goes and started to reverse-flush it (the oil in the apron oil cap cover never changed it's level - the oil came out other places). It's flushing (but slowly), but have a ways to go (really black oil coming out), and I know this isn't the most efficient method. Is the oil cap I'm using the proper one to fill the apron? If so, is there a wick? I'm guessing that if there is, it's plugged. Can you replace the wicks without replacing the oil cap covers? I guess I could answer that myself by draining the oil cap covers and looking, but I'll ask anyway. I assume this elbow-style oil cap is pressed in (?), and I assume I'll ruin it removing it. How do you press (tap) in a replacement without ruining the new one? For the quarter-inch straight style oil hole covers I turned a punch to fit the oil hole cover and it drove in nicely. I'm having the same issue with the spindle bearings (oil does not appear to flow) oil caps. I'll order replacement wicks and oil caps if the wicks are stopped up. Dave (10531)
The oil fillers are threaded right hand. You can remove and replace them easily enough. Just be careful not to mangle the little trap doors on top. My recollection of the inside of the apron is that the oil gets channeled to the different lube spots through little canals and passageways that would make it impossible for the oil to come back out the oiler. The clutch is the main problem to clean up. If running kerosene or a very light oil into the oiler doesn't start to flush out a lot of yuck, you will probably want to tear down the apron. It isn't so tough and there a bunch of folks here to hold your hand through it. Order a parts manual from Rose. She will want your serial number from the tailstock end of the bed between the ways. Glen (10535)
I wish I had a better clue as to what this looks like. I don't have any drains on my 9" lathes. maybe too old ? The oil fill buckes that you mention. I assume they are about 3/8 to 1/2 inch dia with little hinge covers ? If they are that style, then they are either press or screw in. also, if there is some sort of felt in there to prevent chips, it will take some time to drain. If you have a drail, you should be able to inset a wire to see what is there ? if it is gunked from old oil, it may be time for some work. have any pictures of the parts your are talking about ? Dave (10536)
I have an exploded drawing of the apron on the 10 - k that I can e-mail, if you think it is the same or close enough to work off. I doubt the parts numbers are the same though. Len (10537)
I just re-looked at the drawing I mention here. It DOES cover the 9" A and B, as well as the 10 -k, and at bottom is a separate C apron just ask, I'll mail it offlist. Len (10539)
I can't do it tonight, but tomorrow I'll take some digital pictures of the drain and the filler. I'll leave the barbed fitting in to show the location better. I appreciate all the help I've gotten from the group since I bought the lathe in March. I've learned a lot, but have so much to learn. Dave (10540)
I found the Army tech pub for South Bend lathe parts on the web. I also am supposed to be getting the book "How to Run a Lathe" from the guy I bought it from, but it's been over a month since he promised to send it. Probably time to start looking to buy a copy. (10541)
That's where this drawing came from Dave (army tech manual)...so that should be a good guide. Len (10543)
I took a digital picture of the front of the apron showing where the drain is (it currently has a barbed fitting that I'm using to reverse-flush it). You'll also note the filler cup and the clutch. Sorry about the blurry shot, but it was the best I could do with my camera. Dave (10547)
I had my apron apart for cleaning and inspection a short time ago and found it very helpful to see a Hercus web site with photos showing the parts all nicely laid out and several tips besides. Hercus is an Australian SB clone. It was sent to me by someone on this forum. I appreciated it very much and I am sure that it will benefit you greatly. http://steammachine.com/hercus/page5.html (10555)
Dave, kinda fuzzy on the oil fill but you are correct that it looks like a press in. regarding the drain, if it isn't flowing, toothpick in the hole should clear up that bottom sludge. dried oil may block the opening enough to stop draining. Dave (10573)
Improved way lubrication
I became aware of an improved way lubrication after my recent purchase of a very nice 1967 Heavy 10 Toolroom lathe. Unlike any SB 9" lathe I have seen or owned, it had Gitz ball top oilers on the saddle over the ways on the left between the way wipers. This naturally has the advantage of putting the lube where it is kept captive in the center of the saddle rather than the usual method where most of the lube is wiped off. Sometime before 1967 SB put these on Ten Ls and larger lathes. When I replaced my ball top oilers ( catalog calls them Ball Valve Oil Hole Covers) I ordered slightly smaller drive in units to put on my SB 9 to improve its lubrication. I plan to remove the saddle and from the bottom drill a say 1/16 " hole in the top of the V. Turn it over and machine to fit a drive in oiler. It may require a small mound of epoxy if the depth is too short. This should work on all the older lathes. Walt (12558)
I added under the saddle way oilers as well. In my case, I drilled a 1/16" hole from the front and rear thru the thickest part of the casting near each of the 4 ends, but inboard from each of the 2 apron screws and a similar location on the rear. The holes intersect the top of the channel that runs the length of the V. I thought awhile about which fitting to use, but decided to go with Gits flip top elbow oil cups rather than Zerk grease fittings (using oil). Gits cups are 1/4-32 thread. Zerks are 1/4-28 thread. All the other oilers on the lathe are Gits, so I ordered the $50 minimum from Gits direct as they were far cheaper that way. I shoved a pipe cleaner into each hole to act as a filter and a flow limiter then screwed on the oilers. They look right at home on the 9A. Never in the way. Now we have no worries about proper lubrication and don't waste it pouring it all over the V ways only to watch it run off. RichD (12561)
Rich, Do you have any pictures of the oilers you added? Bob (12563)
There may not be a minimum any more, I made an order from Gits just recently and it was for $13. (12579)
Steve, $50 is the break point to avoid the "extra" charge. Check the web sight. I felt it worth while to load up on what I need for oilers for machines and my Steam loco project. Rich. PS, I'll shot pics of my mods soon. (12581)
You sure these are not 1/8" pipe thread? 27 tpi. (12584)
I got my Gits drive in ball top lubricators from MSC on the computer where the minimum is $25 and you can also buy oil or something to make the minimum. They also list threaded units with the thread listed. I got an e mail from a person who said he went much further and put zerk fittings on all the sliding ways. He pumps in oil till all the dirty stuff flushes out. Neat hey? He says its in the Boxford file section. Walt (12585)
Small zerk fittings are actually 1/16-27 taper pipe threads, but most automotive companies screw them into a drilled and tapped 1/4-28 straight threaded hole. The thread misfit and taper make a good interference fit that appears to seal well. I would imagine this is also true of the Gits cups. (12586)
Try McMaster Carr. p/n 1214K1 in the search box should bring up page 1987. Plenty to choose from. dp (12588)
When you use these fittings, do you use way oil wit them? Frank (12591)
Dennis, Gits have a large selection of cups and thread sizes. The ones on the 9A" lathe are 1/4-32 or 1/4" drive in. 1/8" IP is .406" dia thread. Big difference. They do have a few in 5/16-32 straight thread. Check the catalog. BTW, I have been using Zerk fittings for a very long time. I have never seen a 1/16-27 IP (5/16" OD) thread unit. The 1/4-28 taper thread is made to jam tight into a straight threaded 1/4-28 hole. Next size up is 1/8-27 IPT. Smallest is 10-32 straight thread. RichD (12598)
My lathe gets a lot of heavy use so I have improve its lubrication by adding lubrication points for the saddle, cross slide, top slide and tailstock. This lubricates the gibb strips, bed, top slide bush and cross slide bush. I did this by carefully drilling oil holes and fitting grease nipples. A modified grease gun allows oil to be pumped into the oil points. At the end of a days work a few pumps of the grease gun pushes fresh oil into the working parts and old black oil runs out. I have posted photos of these modifications into my folder (Martin's Boxford folder) on the Boxford user group. The positions of the grease nipples are marked on the photos with arrows. Martin (12600)
The link to the Boxford user group is http://groups.yahoo.com/group/BoxfordLathe-UserGroup/ I could post my pictures on this site but I am not sure they are appropriate being a slightly different lathe. Martin (12612)
Lubing up a hand lever collet closer?
Can someone tell me what I should be using to lubricate my hand lever collet closer? There is an oil cup to fill but I don't know what to put in it and I don't see anything about lubing a collet closer in the files area. Philip (12590)
The same lube as used in all oil cups on the machine. SAE 20 ND motor/machine lube oil. I have been using this on my SB Model A 9" since 1968 and is the only lube I use on the machine. JWE (12594)
9" Headstock oil leak
My 9" lathe headstock leaks oil pretty bad on the left side spindle area (gear side) What seals the oil in the bushing to keep it from doing this, I only see a rubber type washer looking seal there, is that all there is to it, is there a way to adjust that? Clint
(13890)
I went through this with my 10k. It drove me nuts. sometimes it would just run out like a faucet and at other times it would be fine. No amount of diddling with lateral play or bearings would help. I took it apart several times and all the oil channels were free and clear. The oil groove on the inside of the casting was fine. I replaced the felt wick and the outside fiber thrust washer (about $17. at LeBlond) but nothing stopped it. The fiber thrust washer was acting as a centrifugal pump and once it got "primed" it would just fling out oil. I was never able to fix this problem until I replaced the fiber washer with the roller thrust bearing retro set. There is a long thread (actually several) about this on the list. I would go thru all the necessary things first - make certain your oil return passages are free, the wick is good and clean and the fiber thrust washer isn't scored. You can adjust the lateral play in the spindle by loosening or tightening the spindle nut on the outboard side of the washer - it is a split nut with a clamping screw. I seem to recall you should have about a thou or so lateral movement. If it still leaks, then throw out the fiber washer and for about 5 or 6 bucks you can get the roller bearings and thrust plates from McMaster-Carr. Check out the several threads on this conversion. It has another advantage - you can get rid of the lateral play in the spindle that is required with the fiber washer and this makes your lathe noticeably more accurate! Frank (13894)
Frank that helps a lot. I have just about experienced what you described here. I am not at all familiar with the roller bearings and thrust plate like you mention. Clint (13905)
Clint, I once had a late model 10K that would leak oil from the rear bearing. I would fill the oil cup up and all would seem fine but the next morning, I would find a puddle of oil on the chip pan under the end gear train. In my case, I found that when the well was drilled in the headstock for the wicks, they drilled it just a little too deep and just nicked the hole that the reversing tumbler pivots in (or maybe a pocket of porosity). I disassembled the headstock, cleaned the well out and degreased it, placed a drop of epoxy in the well (heated a blob on the end of a Popsicle stick and let it drop into the well). After curing, reassembled and all was fine. I don't know if this is your problem but I thought I would mention it. Good Luck! -Blue Chips- (except with Magnesium and Titanium) Webb (13907)
Clint: I installed the radial roller bearing and the two hardened washers (thrust plates) that Frank was telling you about on my 9" modal A and it works great. It may (or may not) stop your oil leak but it is worth doing even if it does not. If you want, I will try to find the part numbers for you. Gary P. (13909)
Here is the original post from a while ago: You other South Bend Mod A owners might consider this! I got the roller thrust bearing at McMaster: The bearing and washer set only cost few bucks. Get one for a 1-3/8" shaft. When installing instead of setting the thrust bearing to the usual 0.001, set it for 2-5. tenths. I finally got rid of the bands caused by the in-and-out 0.001 excursions of the spindle! The bearings run cool now, even when snugged against the shims. I guess all the heat was coming from the thrust bearing. OH! If anyone wants to try the needle thrust bearings from McMaster, they are Stock# 5909 K 39 ($2.73) for the bearing assembly, and 5909 K 53 (2 required) for the .031 hardened and ground washers.($1.08 each..haha) The existing lubrication ports in the spindle, that lubed the stock phenolic washer outboard trust bearing feeds oil to the needle bearing perfectly. (13911)
Jon Thanks, no that really helps a bunch. Clint (13915)
Gary If you do find the part numbers I would appreciate it You don't by any chance have the part # for the thrust washer do you? Clint (13916)
Clint: Jon Rolfe gave you the numbers in post # 13911. Jon is the guy who first thought of doing this. 5909 K39 (bearing one reqd.) 5909 K53 (washer, two reqd.) Gary P. (13923)
Gary, I was thing the washer like what is on it now was a different item? Clint (13924)
The washers you buy with the bearings are ground hardened steel for the rollers to run on. The fiber washer goes in the trophy drawer. You have to relieve the reverse tumbler lever a little so it clears the thicker bearing stack....just a little flat notch on the grinder or miller. In addition to getting rid of in-and-out wander marked when precision facing, the dual thrust bearings let you feed in and out when boring, etc. (13927)
Getting the old oil out and the new oil in?
Everything is working on the 10L. So now I have to deal with the old oil that has been sitting there for who knows how long. Is it safe to use it this way and just add the new oil in every day ? I did read somewhere about using kerrosenne to clean things out. I don't want to take anything apart at this point since I did open up the carriage and it was very clean. If I take out the two screws above and below the cups would that allow the oil to drain ? There is more than a few coats of paint over the screws or I would just try it. Mike (15261)
You can run the lathe for a short time (few hours) with kero instead of oil to clean it out. The old oil turns to a shellac and is miserable stuff to clean out. I have had good luck with a spray can of brake cleaner. I removed the saddle on my lathe off the end of the leadscrew and opened the drain plug and blasted the thing out without taking it apart. The well was caked with the gunk and it had swarf in there as well, even though the gears and clutch were clean. Taking it off also lets you inspect the felt wicking which distributes the oil to the parts. If you decide to take the apron off make up a support block for the leadscrew so it doesn't just hang. Its really a painless and low risk operation, unless of course you then decide to tear the rest of it all apart clean all the pieces and repaint it as well, like I did. That wasn't my original intent but when it was done I was glad it was done. JP (15272)
Gear teeth surface lubrication
There is a great explanation of types of oils needed, oiling image and viscosity chart in the faq and file section of sblinfo group files. The images do a great job of identifying all the oilers and holes that give oil access to felts, reservoirs and all rotating shafts, as well as ways. For us newbies, even this great collection leaves unclear the iso choice, method, amount and interval of lubrication required for the gear teeth surfaces such as the back gears, bull gear, etc. Shawn (15562)
I oil mine as often as I oil the ways and with the same oil. Each day that I use the lathe. There are oil holes in the reversing gear shafts on my lathe as well as on the spindle pulley, so adding a few drops of oil to the gear faces is no big deal. I have seen grease used on gear faces but it will hold chips in the gears and can cause lots of problems. A few drops of oil is all that is needed, it will work its way around to all of the teeth because the gears are different sizes, just avoid getting oil on the leather belt. JP (15574)
There are oil holes in the reversing gear few According to the South Bend lubrication chart that hole in the spindle pulley is for grease not oil, btw. Also, the hole in the back gear shaft is for grease too. At least it is on my 10K. Ed (15597)
The hole in the spindle pulley on my heavy 10 is marked "OIL". The backgear shaft is for grease and has a much larger hole and spiral cut in the shaft to distribute the grease. Not so on the spindle. The 9 and 10K may be different, good you pointed it out. JP (15621)
How do you get grease into the hole on the backgear shaft? I bought a grease nipple but the threads are different. Mike (15625)
I think you should take it all apart and clean any old oil out first so the oil and grease don't mix and get gummed up. You can then put the grease in while putting it all back together. I have heard of a syringe being used to shoot the grease in. I have not done this yet. My machine is missing the plug. Mike (15627)
The recommended grease is Teflon based and has a very thin viscosity. I purchased it from South Bend some time ago for a few dollars. It came in a tube. I just removed the button head cap screw in the shaft and squirted it in. I would think using oil would allow it to leak out the ends and make a terrible mess. If you get any oil on the leather belt you've got problems! Ed(15629)
I bought a grease zerk. I bought a nipple from Ace hardware. I think it was 1/4 20. I made an adapter that was 1/4 20 inside threads on one side and 1/4 28 outside threads (or whatever the backgear spindle was) on the other side. Glen (15634)
I think Jim has it dead on Both my flat belt pulley and back gear shaft are threaded 1/4 20 Dee (15641)
It could well be that I have the threads backwards. My point was that it is easy to make an adapter if you have a lathe to do the work. It is nice that we can rely on each other to correct our mistakes. If we rely on our memory after that magic 50th birthday we can expect trouble. My Dutch friends say that "he is suffering from the yellow disease" meaning: his birth certificate has turned yellow. In my own defense, I think I was fairly vague in my description so that anyone trying to copy my solution would verify my assertions. Glen (15643)
Glenn I sure do not know enough about this great hobby to correct anyone, I was glad to see that subject brought up as I had a problem figuring how to get mine greased also. And I had made an adapter a short time ago. That is why I remembered what the thread was. My birth certificate is pretty faded and yellow also!(15644)
There is a picture (or file) in the groups files that shows the zerks fitting in the spindle. IIRC its an angled type fitting turned down to the 1/4-28 threads. Common zerks is 1/8" pipe. dennis (15645)
There are a whole bunch of different threads for these if you just look around, from 10-32 on up, including the metric sizes. Auto parts stores are a good start. Yellow disease? First I heard of that. The last time I went to the eye doc I complained that the length of my arms was shrinking, must be related. JP (15655)
Reference the Backgear and spindle PULLEY lube for my 10K. I found in NAPA auto parts store a toothpaste type tube of Permatex Teflon filled grease for lubing disc brake sliding surfaces It was 2-3 dollars. I cut the tip so I could screw the plastic spout into the treaded hole. I then squeezed the tube for what seemed enough time. (very scientific ) The black grease is coming out the ends of both rotating parts so I know I have enough lube to do the job. Darrell (15679)
Thoughts about oil for the gears
I know a few weeks ago there was discussion about gears, and what oil to use to quiet them down, but would not cause them to collect swarf. I've been thinking, did anyone mention some Way Oil? The oil is tacky, but does not contain detergents to hold onto particles, and if you lube your lathe right, you already have some. (17161)
I mentioned that, a few drops and it will distribute evenly around both matching gears because they are different diameters. Too much oil just gets thrown off. JP (17163)
That way oil is good stuff. Tomorrow morning I'm picking up an 18" buffalo drill press for 150$, I'm going to lube that thing with the way oil as well. (17165)
The big difference between waylube and other 30 wt turbine oil is that it contains wax to make it stick to the slides and not flow downhill. I'm not sure I would want that wax on the gear teeth because of just what you mentioned about collecting swarf.  The regular 30 wt oil is probably more than adequate for lubricating those gears, because they are not heavily loaded. However there are lubricants made especially for lubricating gears. They are called EP or extreme pressure lubricants. An even more specialized EP lubricant is hypoid oil used in differentials which have hypoid gears. An EP lubricant would probably result in quieter operation of the lathe gears. If you have some hypoid oil on hand for car use try running the lathe with it on the gears. You could make a sound comparison between the two. You can always wash it off with kerosene, (if I dare mention that substance here). If you try it let me know what it does. RC (17180)
I have been using EP-90 on my SB-9c. It is not quiet. I had tried Moly Grease. Much quieter but subject to picking up junk .I striped it and now use the EP-90. Trouble is the in a differential there is a reservoir that the gears dip into and then as the oil is thrown off by centrifugal force it returns to the sump and the gears dipping into the sump replenish the lubricant on the gear chain. On the 9C it is just thrown off and after a few minutes the gears are loud again. Jim B. (17182)
So much for that theory. RC (17190)
To quiet gears it requires a backlash adjustment and that is not always possible. Lubrication may help a little and does help reduce further wear. On a SB lathe with cast iron gears, low speeds etc a few drops of way oil on the teeth when you lube the lathe is easy to do. On other stuff like forged or alloy gears running at high speed or subject to high pressure other lubricants are most likely better. Earlier discussions of lubricants stemmed around motor oil in the lathe. Motor oil has 'emulsifiers' (not detergents) that hold particles in suspension and can be filtered out. The SB lathe doesn't have an oil pump or a filter so having particles in the oil isn't recommended, hence you should use machine oil. It also runs at relatively low speeds and cool temperatures. While way oil is an excellent lubricant for its intended application and is used a lot on the lathe it may or may not be the best lube for everything else. Its a good idea to consider your application and the manufactures' recommendation when lubricating other machines. JP (17191)
I have had a spray can of gear oil in my shop for 30 or so years. I will have to go look at it to get the name, but it is some black substance that comes out very thin because of the propellant in the can, then gets very sticky and fairly thick once the propellant boils out. It does not throw significantly, if at all. I'll get the name tomorrow and we can see if it is still available. Steve (17202)
FWIW, the oil I referred to is Chesterton Spra-Flex, made by A. W. Chesterton Co., Everett, Mass., described as a "Surface lubricant for chain drives, open gears, and wire ropes." It was recommended by a machine tool supplier in the area. It definitely stays on the gears and does not throw around. I have no idea if it is still available. Steve (17233)
I have used one called 'Black Oil' in a spray can, and it is sticky oil. I use lighter graphite spray on chains on farm equipment now. The problem comes in where both of these products will hold particles in the gear teeth. They are great for their intended application, they lubricate and don't wash off in the rain. JP (17234)
Apron, grease or oil on gears?
I assume Grease on gear teeth and oil on shafts/brngs? Adam (18297)
As a rule, oil is used wherever chips may wander. Grease holds chips, oil doesn't. Stan (18307)
The apron (9 and 10K Mod A and B) is designed for splash lubrication. There is an oil sump around the worm gear, and a felt wick leading to the worm bearing. As the gear turns, it raises oil from the sump and transfers it to other gears. Going with grease seems a nice idea at first but, after a while, metal shavings will find their way inside the mechanism. Metal shavings and grease make an abrasive like compound that will ruin everything. (same thing happens with wood dust, oil and metal shavings. the worm gear and worm in my apron were ruined because of that, it is why I manufactured a new worm gear. I was lucky to get at low price on ebay a good worm, with a good apron casting.) Stick with the original design, oil everywhere. At least, metal shavings can fall at the bottom of the sump that can then be drained. (it is recommended to drain this sump once every 3 months or so according to some chart I saw at some point. (I think a tally plate). Guy (18308)
Oil is all you need, I believe the apron gets its bottom filled with spindle oil and then it wicks back to where it is needed. Has the wicking in the apron been changed while you have it open? Grease will just hold swarf that inevitable gets into the apron, not something you want between gear teeth. Use only machine oil in the lathe apron. JP (18309)
Avoid grease anywhere. Go to Files FAQ "oiling and lubrication." Search the archives for "Lubrication Chart" There was one placed somewhere a few months ago. I cant remember where. The theory is that swarf will stick in the grease more than oil. Later data allows the use of a light Teflon based/containing grease on protected gears. There is a lot of comments in the archives on "oil" "grease" and "lubrication" Jim B.(18311)
On the heavy 10 the backgear shaft is made to use grease, the shaft is lightly slotted to carry the grease to the bearings. I would guess the larger lathes are the same. I use CRC or StaLube synthetic grease with moly disulfide, graphite and teflon. It is compatible with machine oil so if you already have the shaft oiled adding the grease won't hurt anything. Some lubricants are NOT compatible with each other like silicon based and lithium based lubes. They are each fine individually but when mixed the results are like glue. JP (18328)
Grease retro for 10K headstock bushings?
I recently used some quality synthetic automotive wheel-bearing grease on another project and found it was really amazing, so I had a notion to propose removing my SB 10K wicks and add a pressure lubing nib(?) to pump bearing grease into the headstock grooves instead of oil. Before the yelling starts :-) Is this insane? Lee (19175)
Yes. Glen (19178)
I disagree with this idea. The bearing is designed for oil lubrication. It has a very small clearance. I don't expect it would lubricate properly. In machinery design I have seen, all high speed shaft I have seen are running either on oil lubricated journal bearings or are on ball or roller bearings. Viscosity on grease is too high. Guy (19180)
You thoughts are echoed by others too. I won't even try it :-) Thanks for taking the time to explain your thoughts too. Lee(19182)
Lee, The spindle to headstock bearing is designed for spindle oil. The felt wick draws oil up from the oil well. The grease you mention is used on the backgear on the 10L and I think on the countershaft on the 9". If it has wicks, use spindle oil. JP
(19187)
Spindle Oil cups
What size is the spindle oil cups? Are they 5/16 x 32 thread ones? We need one as it is broken off (haven't run it dry, NOT that newbie to machinery!!!). MSC has one that is 5/16 x 32. I checked, with a 'thread pitch gauge' and it seems to be 32 tpi. Not sure which diameter it is. They have both a 1/4 and 5/16 size. Logan wants way to much and from what I understand, is expensive on s/h. Ed (19359)
What size and type of lathe are you asking about? The oil cup I replaced on my heavy ten was a press fit. I think the group will need more info to help you out. Tom (19360)
Try going to: www.gitsmfg.com  John Anderson Logan wants way to much and from what I understand, is expensive on s/h. (19361)
Forgot to mention 9b! Sorry. (19364)
Oils in Canada
I am having a terrible time finding appropriate oils for my 10k here in Canada. For spindle oil, the best I can find is a light hydraulic oil like Chevron AW 22, and for the type B and C oils, it is pretty much a crapshoot. Oh, and they all come in 22L pails... I did find a source for superlube - a mail order car parts place in Montreal: http://www.ppsonline.net/superlube.htm (I take it the 14.5 Oz tube in the middle of the page is what I am looking for) I know there are more canucks on the list - where do you get your lubricants? I suppose I can order a gallon each of spindle gear and way oil from McMaster-Carr, but that seams a bit excessive. I think the shipping would be more than the oil! At least I have located a source for metal alligator lacing for my existing belt. Ed (21110)
Take it easy on your self and your wallet. I have been buying a quart every year or so of 20wt ND oil from Pep Boys and using it in all oiling applications on the machine. For the gears I use LPS 3 in a spray can and the gears are quiet and do not wear. I have using these since I bought the machine in 1968 and it shows no wear except in the cross slide screw and nut and that has gone from a quarter turn of slop in 1968 to maybe a half turn today. And the grease everybody is recommending for the spindle and back gear is looking for a problem for sure. Grease does not belong in either place because it can gum up and restrict lubrication. JWE (21111)
Ed I got type B (SUS150 - 240 according to South Bend) at Walmart in Dartmouth NS, as Hydraulic Jack Oil ISO Grade 32 which is equivalent to SUS 150 and type C (SUS 250-500 according to South Bend) also at WalMart as Compressor Oil ISO 68 which is equivalent to SUS 350. Both available in small containers. Peter (21112)
Perfect - I'll check that out. What do you use for spindle oil and, since someone mentioned grease is not actually the way to go, for the cone pulley? Ed (21116)
I found these. Any suggestions on a spindle oil? (21120)
For the A oil, I'm using MOBIL 1 trisynthetic 5W30 motor oil which equates to ISO22 or South Bend's recommended SUS100 oil. However, it does not say non-detergent on the container, and I have read on the newsgroup that South Bend recommend not using motor oils due to harmful additives, so I am going to look for a better product. One posting I saw suggested Mobil Velocite Spindle Oil No.10, but I have not got around to looking for a local supplier yet. (21125)
According to customer service at Imperial Oil, the velocite#10 is only available in 22L pails or larger. I did Find a spindle oil at KBC tools http://www.kbctools.com/can/main.cfm  in Canada part # 1-820-822 sold by the gallon. Ed (21135)
Gearbox Lubrication Tube Question
I'm rebuilding a 13" with single-tumbler gearbox and among all the 1/4" oil cups there is one 5/16" that feeds an internal brass tube that appears designed to drip oil somewhere along the length of the clutch shaft assembly. SB calls this Item 15 "Oil Tube", Part #PT2853TH1. The tube on mine might not have been original equipment but I can't be sure. I'm replacing all the oil cups and wicks and will replace the tube but here's the question: It's unclear to me exactly what the tube is supposed to be lubricating although, as found, it was dripping on the clutch gear. There are two wick-lubricated items on the clutch shaft and of course the gear teeth need lubrication. It seems to me that a tube that only drips a little oil out of its end may not get the oil where it's needed. Can I improve the oiling by making a tube that distributes oil across the length of the clutch shaft? Or, am I all wet (LOL) and over thinking this thing? Ed (21307)
I have a heavy ten with the single tumbler gear box, it has the oil tube like yours. When I disassembled mine to clean and repair, I wondered about the tube also. Then I noticed that the tumbler lever has a oil hole and groove cut in it to oil the idler gear on the lever. When the tumbler lever is in the third hole from the left, the oil tube lines up with the oil hole in the lever. So when I put a few drops of oil in the tube, it drops on the lever and oils the idler gear. Also, on my gear box, the top shaft, with the sliding clutch, (right center left lever), has a headless screw in each end that you take out and drop some oil in to oil the sliding clutch. Anyway, that's what I think the tube is for. Chris (21315)
Lubrication chart (16 sbl)
Anyone where I can find a lubrication picture for a 16" sbl? (22115)
www.zetagraphics.com/shop/sbparts/lubrication_chart_6503.pdf (22126)
How come auto oil is so bad?
I heard that detergents in auto oil are BAD, BAD, BAD for machine tools, but WHY ? (sounds like the kids, don't it - apologies :o( ) Some cars still have parts from cast iron stashed deep within, so surely it can't be all that bad can it ? Paranoid me began to suspect it was all a part of a cunning master plan to get us to buy special machine oil . Someone, please explain the error of my ways. Tim (22600)
Its the emulsifiers not detergents. The emulsifiers hold particles in suspension so the oil pump can push them into a filter. No pump or filter on a lathe so the crap stays in the bearings rather than falling to the bottom of the oil sump. Secondly machine oils wick up the felt by capillary action with just a small temperature difference. Automotive oils take much more thermal energy to move, fine in a car but not in a capillary lubricating system. The other comment heard but not as often is how about hydraulic oil, well, in addition to having poorer lubricating properties than machine oil most of it is hydroscopic, it absorbs water and that is something you don't want in your old machine unless you have lignum vitae bearings. Tribiology is a science in itself. There are thousands of oil additive combinations and each used for a specific reason. Stick with machine oil as recommended by Southbend and you shouldn't go wrong. JP (22603)
Several things are bad about using motor oil in machines, here are a couple: The detergent keeps any dust dirt or metal shavings suspended instead of letting them settle which means they will sit there and spin thru or around your bearings instead of settle to the bottom of the wicks, motor oil is designed to operate at a temperature far above what our bearings and spindle are designed to run at, spindle oil is designed to run much closer to room temp and the 2 types of oil don't have the same mechanical and flow properties. (22604)
Further to the other comments from our learned members I found that the water removing emulsifiants were troublesome. Exposed oil on the bed tended to turn a funny color and be less lubricating after a few days of typical UK weather (typical = damp). Thin layers also tend to go varnish like after a while and some of the expensive super duty neat cutting oils will react with the additives. Pongs a bit. Automotive oils can be used successfully but you have to keep exposed surfaces like the bed well covered with a decent thick layer and have total loss supply to the bearings. My friend John used to work this way and everything, but everything, in the shop was oily. Nothing rusted but you didn't dare touch anything, changing into overalls and wiping cloth in hand essential before opening the door! Its better now I'm supplying him with proper way oils etc. Small quantities of the proper oils can be difficult to get in the UK. A nice man from Castrol Technical Dept told me that Magna BD68 was fine as a way oil for the SouthBend range and Hyspin AWS 32 suitable for the bearings, apron and other jobs. RS Components stock both in 5 liter quantities and will take credit card orders via the internet if you register on their site. Clive
(22612)
The detergent loosens particles of dirt, grit, gunk, dog poo-poo, kitty litter and other varied sorts of stuff you don't want running around in your bearing areas or ways. That's the theory. The reality is that it's part of a communist plot to make us buy special oils. Greg (22618)
My guess is that it became milky in color. I am suprised to hear that BP doesn't make or sell it there. There are a number of makers here in the US, Mobil, Shell and Texaco to name a few. Look for ISO-22 and ISO-68 oils and see what surfaces. JP(22622)
I have used NON-DETERGENT auto oil on my 9" for quite awhile now...over 20 years, but I don't used the lathe every day either. Gregory (22627)
SB heavy 10 spindle lube path
Can one of you sketch the path of spindle oil in a SB heavy 10 spindle and post it here ? I'm not sure if you are supposed to see oil weeping. Is it a closed system? (23762)
It starts in the well below the bearing, goes up the felt wick and onto the center of the spindle and bearing. There is a small felt pad on top of the bearing, set into the bearing expander which holds and spreads oil. The oil moves to the outside of the bearing and into the vee cut at either end of the bearing and back down the return hole to the well again. The return holes do get plugged with oxidized oil and crud and inhibit the return of the oil. This usually takes many years to happen and can be driven out with a stiff wire like a small welding rod. This unfortunately it requires moving the spindle out of the way. JP(23763)
I just posted a very simple drawing of what I saw. I think it is correct. I forgot to label the little red square on top- that is the spreader/upper felt. Look in southbendlathepics files section for oil flow 1.jpg heavy 10 oil path- Bill (23766)
When I replaced the felt wicks in my 13", I found that there was no felt on the bearing expander. So, I made one and installed it with new wicks. I've got a very small amount of weepage from the front and rear bearings, not enough to be a problem. Definitely all the passages and vents are clear. But, in reading the bearing adjustment instructions there's a note that says if the bearing leaks oil to file a flat on the bottom of the vee on the expander. I'm guessing this is to relieve the pressure of the upper felt on the top of the journal and prevent too much oil volume from being pushed to the sides where it might leak out rather follow the v-groove return path? Anybody know what the size of the upper felt should be? My gut feel told me I might have made mine a little too thick in the vertical dimension. Ed (23777)
I missed half the system on my rough oil path drawing- the "patented" oil return system. You can't see it in the view I drew. I have added oil return 1.jpg at southbendlathepix in the files area. It is a view across the spindle and shows the grooves around the spindle and the return passages back to the oil wick. Some oil can still get out- oil may cling to the rotating spindle enough to resist being thrown into the groove. That oil would gather on the spindle flange behind the chuck or other high spots before being launched into space. Bill (23793)
I saw the sketches. The spindle lubrication is a closed system according to your drawings. In a perfect world there should be no oil leaking or draining from the spindle. Other than the bearings getting hot [ too late ] how do you tell if all is well as far as the spindle being properly lubed ? Silly question ? (23797)
Certainly not a silly question but not an easy one either. As Ed's earlier posted analysis shows, the system needs to be in balance and small changes in oil delivery, oil viscosity, or bearing clearance can destroy that balance. Practical experience, on the other hand, suggests that the bearings are less sensitive that they look. I don't remember piles of dead South Bends outside the local Vo Tech. This group has 2000 members- figure a minimum of 1 in 4 own a running SB so that's 500 lathes or 1000 spindle bearings. We are an enthusiastic group and probably maintain better than average. Still, I'd bet there are a few empty oil cups, missing felts, damaged bearings, and/or plugged oilways out there. How about the workshops that use the cast iron segmented spindle bearings? These can't even develop a hydrodynamic bearing oil layer. I think the answer is fairly simple- while most SB spindles are designed to run as a hydrodynamic bearing, the materials chosen work well as a standard bushing. As long as there is some lubricant, the temp stay down, and you keep grit out, the spindle keeps turning. So, the only way to know if your oil system is good is to take it apart and go through it. However, monitoring bearing temp and good maintenance will probably maintain the status quo for quite a while. As always, my opinion only- don't empty your oilers, put the pulleys on high speed, and walk away for two hours to test the theory. Bill (23810)
Bill, thanks for the great drawings. Maybe you know the answer to this - there was a thread about it maybe a year ago. The little clips that are sometimes found in the oil return holes - are they common to all South Bends? My 13" doesn't have them. If I recall correctly, the previous thread never came to a conclusion about their purpose. Are they necessary to help the oil return? Ed (23812)
Ed, My heavy 10 did not have them but it has been "refurbished". They may have been there when new. I would guess that the clips are there to break oil surface tension and help it start down the return holes. Oils like to climb surfaces and gather on "high energy" areas such as corners or edges. I could see where some viscosity/surface tension combo would prefer climbing out of the catch groove to flowing down the drain. A pin with edges in the drain may tilt the balance back in favor of the drain. Features like these clips are usually "non-engineered" solutions. I work on British cars and most manual tranny versions have a cotter pin stuck in the bell housing drain hole. It doesn't hold anything so it's value is not obvious. While you drive, the pin moves around and cleans any crap out of the drain hole, thus giving any oil that escapes the motor or tranny a clear path to your garage floor. Stopping the leaks would have been another solution but I am not in a position to judge their choice of the cotter. My guess is that a few lathes, due to specific usage, maintenance, or bearing tolerance conditions, had their spindle oil climbing out rather than draining back. Someone put a clip in the drain hole and the problem went away. At that point, they had three choices- live with the knowledge that some machine will fling oil, reengineer the lube system to move the critical point outside of running conditions, or fit the clips when appropriate. When appropriate could have been all machines until the problem was fixed, all machines forever, certain size machines, machine with specific tolerance conditions, or machines for a particular large customer. Someone probably knows but I don't think the answer will come from inspecting our machines. Bill (23821)
I think I'll fab some pins and see if they help. From my experience with 1960's Triumph and BSA motorcycles and MGBs, I thought they all came with a piece of cardboard for the garage floor as standard equipment. Alas, the only piece of these vehicles left in my possession is a brass wire wheel hammer. Ed (23829)
Chuck Lubrication
I have a Buck 6-jaw chuck that I just took apart and de-rusted. What is appropriate oil/grease to use for lubrication on re-assembly (on the scroll, and on the bevel gear)? Thanks, Jeff I wasn't going to tell this story, but since I asked for help I kind of feel obliged. The power supply to the wiring in my braincase must be a little spotty. The whole chuck came apart pretty easily, except I couldn't get the scroll out. There appeared to be some gummy grease and an indeterminate amount of rust. The jaws were tightened right up on the face. I figure I can get it loose if I just open up the jaws a bit. Problem is, I got the chuck without a key. Oh well, I measure and make a mental note to pick up a 1/4" key. On to plan B: a little light tapping on the bevel gear with a brass drift. Nothing moves and I stop before I damage anything. I spray on some degreaser and let it sit. When I get back to it a couple of days later, it still seems stuck. Plan C: I see if any of the Allen wrenches I have sitting around more or less fit. That kinda worked but I couldn't get very much torque on the square hole. More degreaser/penetrant. A week later (I've got young children) I'm back for plan D: file up a chuck key, which I haven't bothered to order yet. Seems like too much work so I forget about if for another week or so. Plan E: I'm standing in the garage thinking "There has got to be something that will work!"when I notice that my right leg is up against my tool box. FINALLY the light goes on. Five minutes and a 1/4 drive ratchet and the scroll is off. (25807)
Oil will eventually sling out around the key pinions and not stay in desired place long and grease eventually sticks swarf and gunk to it negating any benefits that the lubrication it provides. Graphite is slippery, does not stick swarf and stays where you want it. I use it on all my scroll chucks whenever I clean and lube them. I get the "electric motor lube" graphite and am very happy with how it works. Gabe (25815)
 
     
 

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