Lathe - Materials/Supplies



Moglice? (Jun 19, 2001) Bolts & Steel supply for central NJ (Jul 17, 2004)
Questions About Steel Usage (Feb 2, 2002) Square Head Bolts (Jul 27, 2004)
Turcite? (Sep 14, 2002) What Is This Metal Used For? (Sep 22, 2004)
Material Question (Oct 14, 2002) Source for Wrought Iron (Dec 2, 2004)
BDMS? (Mar 4, 2003) Dura-Bar / MLA Faceplate (Dec 22, 2004)
Moglice (May 1, 2003) Tuflok Plastic Rivets (Jan 5, 2005)
What Steel to Use (Dec 17, 2003) Source for Copper Sheet (Jan 11, 2005)
304L stainless (Feb 16, 2004) US equivalent to PGMS BMS? (Feb 10, 2005)
I wound on moglice repair stuff at Devitt Machinery with WebFerret. Looks like they are pushing it for way repairs, not replacing busted gear teeth though. Bubba K. (911)
Questions About Steel Usage
I think 12L14 is a leaded alloy of the low carbon steels. (hence the L designation) The lead alloy makes the material machine easier and for that reason is used extensively in automatic screw machine production. I've had no problem in using 1018 for various projects. I even prefer 1018 for all my v blocks and angle plates. Rick, I forget what size lathe you are discussing in this thread but in the past couple of weeks there has been discussion of this subject. (check back through the files) I altered my 9" small dial and made the bushing out of 1018. Just take a final cut with a sharpened tool at higher RPM and slower feed and then sand. Also, in case my alteration didn't work, (had to sleeve for a longer shaft for dial/bushing and find bearings at reasonable $) I bought a large crossfeed assembly. I now have an extra assembly listed on Ebay. If you are interested I can give you more info on parts, dimensions, and method of my alteration. Ed (3052)
And speaking of different varieties steel, would I be asking for trouble if I made a replacement spindle for my dividing head out of either of these? How 'bout garden variety CRS, whatever that is? I would like to avoid hardening since I have no tool post grinder. Does case hardening cause warping? With reasonable care would a machinable steel last a (my) lifetime of careful use as a dividing head spindle? The current spindle can be filed so it isn't hardened. The whole reason is that my dividing head has a 1-3/4" 8-TPI nose and I'd like to get down to a more standard 1-1/2" 8-TPI. I could do that to the existing spindle but the wall thickness of the nose would be about 1/8" at the thread depth near the nose. Too thin? Could I hard silver-solder a sleeve inside the spindle to strengthen it up and then bore it out to 3MT as the current spindle taper is much larger than 3MT? How 'bout just draw-baring in the center to beef it up? Thanks for guidance in the materials and strength of materials areas. Paul R. (3053)
Paul, I think you answered one of your own questions: "The current spindle can be filed so it isn't hardened." Rick K. (3055)
Paul For all practical reasons as long as you are not going to heat treat it use 12L13 as it is so much nicer to work with. And yes case hardening will cause things to warp. The only materials that I have found that can be heat treated with out moving are PH materials like 17-4 that are done in a salt bath. And what type of dividing head is it as all the B S 0 heads come with 1 1/2-8 and B S 1 heads use 2 1/4-8. JWE (3056)
My dividing head says: "GULLEDGE MACH. WKS, SANTA ANA, CALIF" It is a 3-1/2 center height 40:1 ratio with a 1-3/4-8 TPI nose and probably a big B S taper. Here's a small picture of it. The scale in front is 6" long for size reference. I had to make the crank handle and second dividing plate, and had to tear it down to un-gum it, but I got it for $40.00 and it's in good shape now (except for the non-standard nose. Paul R. (3057)
The thread on steel selection seems to be getting a lot of attention, especially about 1018 CRS and its use. There have been several good points made about 1018, 4140 and others, but I always select material on the basis of "form, fit, and function." While it's true that 1018 CRS is "a poor mans steel" that doesn't mean that it is worthless for projects. On my small dial alteration to the large for my SB 9" I made the new sleeve from CRS. I could lay this next to the original or one made out of most any steel and you would have a hard time telling them apart. I made some of my first angle plates and v blocks at work out of tool steels such as H13, 4140, and 6150. After a few years they all "moved" from the original grind. For several years now I have used 1018 with a .06 thick case hardening after green grind. None of my blocks have moved. I made a matched set of 4" angle plates this way and they are still within the .0001 they were originally ground to. I attribute this to the lack of internal stresses in case hardened 1018. During case hardening the steel is put into a carbon rich bed and soaked at high heat. This "drives" carbon into the outer skin of the steel, the depth determined by the soak time. In the actual hardening process this outer skin then has the carbon necessary for the molecular transformation to produce the hardness. However, the internal steel will remain soft and not have the stresses associated with the molecular transformations. High carbon tool steels, or through hardening as sometimes called, have residual stresses even with proper cool down and tempering. One member (sorry I forgot who) talked about his high school shop class hardening HRS by water quenching. I think you may have had a water quenching steel rather than HRS. Another member talked about the differences between HRS and CRS. He is correct about the thickness, etc., but I would like to expand on his comments. CRS costs less than HRS because HRS is rolled to thickness under heat. The heat permits the thickness reduction with the grain moving fairly uniformly throughout the structure, hence no stresses built up from grain deformation. CRS is rolled cold (lower heat) and only the outer layer of grains are compressed setting up the stresses that cause warping if you machine one side. The cold rolling also produces the smooth finish seen vs the black scale on HRS. By normalizing and stress relieving before machining the problems associated with these stresses can be for the most part avoided. The Machinery's Handbook has excellent sections on steels and heat treating. If you don't want to invest the $$'s just to have around the garage, they can be found occasionally at rummage sales. I have seen several older editions and can never resist the $2 price tag! I think I have 4 or 5 around now. Ed (3067)
As far as steel for carburization, 8620 is very good. You will want a low carbon steel for this hardening process. That's the 20 in 8620(20 points of carbon). Since you can't temper a case hardened steel (you would loose the hardness). If you don't temper high carbon steels then they are brittle. You are assuming it isn't hardened, because you can file it. This may not be true. It just might not be very hard. Files are about 60 Rc, if I remember correctly. You can get some steels that are already hardened. You might look at LaSalle Fatigue Proof. I think it is hardened, annealed and stress relived. I can't remember exactly how hard it is. I think it is 1044 steel in a hardened state. It machines very well. As you machine a steel, you also impart stress into it. You can stress relieve steel at a temperature of around 200-400 degrees Fahrenheit. Leave at this temperature for more than a few hours. Another process might be to chrome the journals. Chrome is very hard and can be applied to specific spots. Tom (3072)
Cold rolled steel is full of stresses from rolling cold. It will warp when machined as surface stress is relieved. Hot rolled would be a better choice although needing more allowance for machining under the mill scale. I would not try to silver solder any thing on one of my spindles as I would be afraid of that much heat (dull red heat for SS) John (3107)
How about just making a new backplate for your chuck or faceplate with the thread you need. For that CRS or cold rolled steel would work great. It seems to me to be a whole lot easier than the whole spindle. I would guess that there is milling work needed also. If I were doing it, I would use pre-heat treated 4140. Rockwells around 28 and is considered a chrome moly steel. I am pretty sure files are rc 65 so anything below around 58 rc can be filed. (3200)
I was going to make an adapter for some small chucks, like off my 7x10 or my Taig. The problem with adapter plates in general is that I can't easily move work + chuck from my 9" SBL to the dividing head to keep it centered. Since all of my big tooling (present and future) is for the SB spindle nose, it would be nice to standardize my shop around that. Paul R. (3201)
What is turcite? Frank M (6314)
It s a material available in thin strips which are glued to the ways of a machine then scraped till they are flat. The material is used by machine tool rebuilders as well as new machine manufactures. Here is the WEB site for Moglice a similar material that is also available as a castable putty. http://www.moglice.com  and here is one for Turcite http://www.boedeker.com/turcax_p.htm  Yasmiin (6315)
Material Question
My lathe came with a South Bend backing plate but no chuck. I purchased a chuck from Travers thanks to someone's suggestion from this list, thinking I could just turn down the existing backing plate. I started doing that tonight, actually the first time I've tried to cut anything on this lathe. It made a lot of grinding type noise with a very light cut, and there were no chips, only fine dust like from grinding. I have not done a lot of lathe work, and I've never encountered anything like this. Does this seem normal? Does anyone know what this plate could be made of? Cast iron or hardened steel possibly? And can I successfully turn it down to fit my new chuck? (6650)
Backplates are usually cast iron. The surface everywhere will have a somewhat porous appearance. Also, you may be using an improper cutting tool. Be sure to select something for cast iron. If cutting with carbide; use a C-2 grade. It is normal to produce a fine, sand-like material from cast iron. The noise and fine dust indicate to me that your cutter is not right. If not correct; the cutter will probably show rapid wear. The noise may also be from a non-rigid set-up. (6651)
I used both a C-2 and C-6 carbide, they both seemed about the same. I will try it with the C-2 again tonight. The setup is the standard tool holder from South Bend, maybe I will "choke up" the tool and holder to have as little overhang as possible. Do I need a lubricant while cutting? (6660)
I cut these dry. Have always had good results. I've no idea what you might use for lube, but I'm sure there is something appropriate. I simply don't care for the mess. (6661)
Mark, I'd check the center height of the cutting tool. It might be a tool geometry problem i.e. not enough tool clearance. Although the 'lantern' type tool holder is flexible, it does rotate to achieve the center height. This takes away from the clearance angle. Block or shim up between the tool holder and the pivot piece if needed. I'd try and keep the tool holder fairly level. To check the tool center height, get a small piece of flat stock. Place it between the OD of the part and the tool bit. Not to much pressure though. The flat stock (say 1/16 thick) should be vertical when the tool is on center. Also cast iron is a bit touchy on speeds so check those. I come up with 75 to 100 RPM for cast iron on a 4 inch diameter part. I took the middle on cutting speed of 75 css. This is for HSS tool bits. With carbide try 200 RPM. I took 275 as the css. Tom (6662)
That was it. I slowed the spindle down to ~ 91 RPM, and it cut just fine. Next time I'll look for the answer in Machinery's Handbook BEFORE I post a question here, but it's nice to know the correct answers are so close at hand. (6668)
I was reading the plans to make a tool post and he uses this as his metal BDMS. I have no I idea what it is. Can anyone help? Now in the article by Kevin Ferguson on building this tool post he suggest that in the United States this is called CRS. He goes on to say that this is a hard material to turn. He then says that using 12L14 might have been better but I think this must be a cutting fluid? maybe not then he talks about O1 and tempering it. Frank (9618)
BDMS (Bright drawn mild steel) is Brit speak for CRS (cold rolled steel) in the US of A. 12L14, free machining leaded steel, only comes in rounds and hexes. Cuts like brass. Use plenty of dark cutting oil when machining CRS and use sharp tools with top rake. RichD (9619)
I have no ideas as to BDMS, but CRS is Cold Rolled Steel. Its a generic name. Generally speaking it is a low carbon steel such as 1018 or 12L14. Its just a way of processing steel. The 'L' in the 12L14 is for lead that is added to help get a better finish in turning the steel. I don't think 1018 is hard to turn, but the finish isn't usually the best. Still it should be OK. I like 8620. It turns good and finishes good. I never checked the cost. These low carbon steels are hardened with case hardening by various methods. The outside is hard, but the inside is still soft. I'm not that familiar with O1, its probably a tool steel. Tom (9620)
Moglice is a moldable, pourable bearing material often used to build up worn saddles (among other things). It has also been used in the manufacture of some new machine tools. More details at: http://www.moglice.com Scott Logan (10666)
Moglice is one of the premier epoxy like compounds that are used to repair worn machine tools. you can grind the ways and the carriage, then make standoffs for the carriage and fill the space. you get not only a new surface, but one that will be the correct height and will wear great and be slippery tool this process extends to half nuts too ! you can spray a release agent on the screw, fill the nuts with Moglice, then after it sets, you can trim the excess and have re-surfaced nuts. obvious problem is that if the screws are worn, they will get tight at the ends, or if you did it at the ends, they will be loose in the middle. Dave (10674)
What Steel to Use
I'm enjoying my South Bend Junior 9 and am beginning to get the hang of it again. I've been checking out local metal suppliers and am finding things a bit confusing. The books that I look at show many different alloys of steel. Most of the metal places have what they seem to generically refer to as "cold-rolled steel rod" and that's it. They can't say whether it's 1018, 1045, or whatever. I want to make a firing pin for an old rifle and the original pin appears to be hardened. I need to figure out what type of steel I should use, that's either tough enough to use as is or has enough carbon content so I can harden it. Any advice on how I might approach selecting the right metal and asking the right questions of the metal suppliers? Ralph (15735)
Use O1 drill rod and temper it after hardening. You may not want to bring it to full hardness for that application. For cold roll the 1045 has more carbon than 1018. If the supplier doesn't say what type it is it is probably from Asia and could be anything. Don't bother with that supplier. A parts vendor I know got a great deal on some screws a while back from Asia, problem was it tripped the Geiger counter, they were made from Russian nuke scrap. Sources of metals in small quantity are Onlinemetals and Metals Express. McMaster has drill rod, info on it and info on hardening it. JP (15740)
I agree with the o1. That's  "oh" 1, and not a "zero"1. O meaning oil hardening drill rod. Ray (15743)
Drill rod works good. What type of firearm are we talking about? If you go cold rolled, I'd go 8620. Cold rolled is a generic term for low carbon steel(20 point of carbon) such as 1018 etc. Since it isn't hardenable, they can form or roll the steel at lower temperatures (i.e. not red hot). This gives a smooth finish. 1045 would be a hardenable steel. You would have to draw and temper the steel. To get an even heating of such a small part as a firing pin, heat up a larger piece of steel. Place the firing pin on it. It will pick up the heat from it. I think firing pins need about 800F-900F. I think this is just after brown to a gray. You will see some old time firing pins a flame or oxide blue. They harden and temper them, then repolish and heat again till it turn blue (lower temp). This heating isn't hot enough to affect the previous tempering. Tom (15749)
I keep remembering stuff. To temper springs and most likely firing pins, make a holder for some lead. After hardening the piece, put it on a piece of wire. Heat the lead till oil will flash flame on it. This should be around 800to900F. This is if you do not have access to a heating oven. Dip the part into the heated lead for a determined time that corresponds to the size of the part. For a large sidelock spring about 10-15 minutes. I would say 5-10 minutes for a firing pin. More time does not hurt the part. It will only get so hot. Tom (15750)
Ralph; Having done a little gunsmithing in the past, I would use O1 oil hardening drill rod. This should be about 1% carbon. Machine the part to where you want it, heat it to cherry red where it looses it's magnetism, plunge in ordinary automotive oil. Then polish it, temper to a deep straw, and plunge in oil again to stop the process. You can get O1 drill rod from Enco, J L Supply, MSC and just about any industrial supplier. Or if you have a Brownell's catalog, you can order it from them. Perk (15754)
304L stainless
Does anyone know of a site or have any first hand experience machining 304L stainless steel. I am going to be cutting and grinding 304 soon and will appreciate any suggestions. Mike (17330)
304 is hard and nasty stuff. Its kind of like 4140 or 4130 at 40 to 50 RC. It will eat most t15 or better normal cutters for lunch. Using a micro grain C6 cutoff blade on 303s the blade needed to be sharpened ever 72 hours at a average. With 304 it needed to be sharpened every hour and we could no longer run the machine unattended 24-7 as we had done with 303. Inserts TPG222 inserts that lasted 48 hours or more on 303 needed changing from an hour to hour and a half at the most. Nasty stuff but some customers want it because it doesn't oxidize like 303 does until they get the cost sheets for machining the stuff. Oh, by the way did I say its nasty stuff that makes you appreciate 17-4, 416 and some other nicer stuff like that. JWE (17332)
Its the easiest stainless to machine, its called free machining because it contains lead. Somewhat easier to machine than 302 and doesn't get gummy. JP (17333)
I just looked it up, I was thinking of a different alloy stainless. (17334)
When cutting SS you have to slow your cutting speed way down. If you are trying to cut it with a band saw your slowest speed is way too fast. I worked in the food industry for 5 yrs done a lot of 304 and 318 SS. Used a old marvel draw saw with a coarse toothed hacksaw blade and it would cut through SS tube like a hot knife through butter. Same with drilling, run bit real slow and you can drill all day with the same bit. I could drive electricians nuts, they were throwing drill bits away as fast as they could put them in their drill motors. Get your bit where you want the hole lean on the motor and just bump the triger. The bit will melt through the SS. Here in my shop I have a old champion flat belt driven drillpress with a back gear in it. When drilling SS or hard steel I put the drill press in backgear and you can watch the bit turn. It drills right on through no problem. Like the tread that was running about the young and old. I'm older and just passing on what I have found out over the years, and what was passed down to me from old men years ago. Duane (17335)
The first plunge into any piece of SS is always a bit of a tense moment. I often don't even know what series of SS I'm dealing with, only that its SS. The slow speed heavy feed always gets me through. Whether I'm drilling a piece of machinery at work, with a drill motor, or machining a piece of scrounged scrap on my lathe. RC (17337)
Bolts & Steel supply for central NJ
Can anyone suggest a good place to get raw materials, bar, angle, bolts etc near Hillsborough NJ? I know further north in Denvill there is Schaffers supply for general hardware. Are there any lathe / metal working tool suppliers around ? Right now I especially want to find thin wall tube 3-1/2" in diameter. I need to finish fabricating the air intake on a V8 Datsun 240z conversion. Any leads of sensibly priced 90 degree rubber bends would be handy too, I have seen expensive silicone ones for turbo installs that cost $60 each! right now I have used painted drain pipe, but it just doesn't quite have the cachet I'd like. I did find some stainless steel on the web but it was not cheep and shipping etc made it hard to justify for 2 feet of pipe. Mike (20073)
This place is the best even though it is a ride to Glassboro, NJ. Plan a full day. Leave EARLY. You will be there until closing at 5 PM. It is about 20 minutes off of Turnpike Exit No. 3. Take Rt. 168 south to Rt. 42 south to the AC Expressway. Exit at the first exit. Turn right, and follow the road to FAzzio's yard. Prepare yourself for major schwing time when you see the epics. Be sure to explore all the links. I have bought all kinds of metal from these folks in person and by UPS. I have always received fine service, fair prices and a reasonably dependable turnaround time. All ferrous hardware is $1.00 per POUND. Remember THAT next time you go to HD or LOWE'S and spend $1.00 for 7 fasteners! The link: http://www.josephfazzioinc.com/ Matt (20076)
Mike, That lathe looks great. I boxed up your chuck today and will send it to you Monday. That rear pulley looks a bit large but if it works that's great. Do you have the belt for the cone pulleys? Paul (20078)
As luck would have it, I have a friend who lives just down the road from there, I will have to go visit him. Mike (20149)
I didn't know there were different sizes, what size is a normal one ? Yes, but it looks like the moths have been at it :-) I think one of the big suppliers sell them though, I need to get some actual bits too, and then make a stand, I was going to weld up some very large cross section square tube to make a simple frame and then put a thick plywood table on top. (20150)
Square Head Bolts
I'm looking for a source for the square-head bolts with the shoulder that are commonly used on the SB lathes for clamping parts such as the saddle lock, taper attachment locks, etc. Doing a Google, I can't even find what these kind of bolts are called. MSC and McMaster-Carr don't carry them. Thought I'd give the collective wisdom a try before I called Plaza Machinery. Ed  (20224)
Sounds like you could make a couple. gregg (20225)
Dog Point with Shoulder-Square Head Set Screws
Boy those are pricey. Looks like they start at $17 each from McMaster. (20231)
Ed; Between my 9" SB and my 10L, I think I have made about a half a dozen of these. It's a fairly easy project. The shank is turned and threaded, then the head is left as stepped affair with two diameters. The smaller diameter is on the end is milled square for the wrench, while the larger diameter is lathe filed to a nice contour, leaving the bottom (bearing surface)flat. A couple can be done as a simple evening project. Perk (20234)
I have made various kinds of nut, bolts, and other fasteners but I was hoping I could get these at a reasonable price. Like you suggest, Perk, I'll spend an evening making up a few of each size. I suppose if I use drill rod, I could try to harden just the square head so it doesn't deform from the wrench, leaving the shank more elastic so it doesn't get brittle. That'll be an interesting endeavor. Just happen to have a whole box full of different sizes of drill rod. Ed (20236)
One big advantage of 4 sided fasteners over 6 is that they're much less prone to round over. File your wrench nice and square, then make the heads to match. No need to harden, methinks. Alan (20242)
Had to make several square heads. In most cases I was able to have or find a broken head. One I drilled smaller diameter into head and found black Allen headed cap screw and cut head off and turned a nipple which I coated with LOCKTITE and pressed into drilled hole. Worked but not good -as a drilled hole is not neat enough to use for a press fit. Bore the hole if it is large enough to get the boring bar into the drilled hole. Another I held square head in 4-jaw chuck and drilled the small (7/32) as I recall hole in the square head bolt with tail stock drill and the turned a nipple on a good bolt with its head cut off -turned so had a 0.001 between OD and ID or so clearance for braze material to suck up into the joint when it is heated. then coated with brazing flux- then assembled in lath chuck and tail stock drill chuck to hold while I heated and brazed which now looks like an original carriage lock. I vote for this method if you have the broken head. Darrell (20246)
What Is This Metal Used For?
I have come across a short rod (1,25" x 13") of a bronze type of metal with "Bearium" writen on it. I'm assuming it's a bearing material of course. It doesn't look the same as some bronze rod I have that has an oily feel and I'm sure is for sleeve bearings. Does anyone recognize the name? What would I use it for in the home shop? Tom
Here's the whole Bearium story. http://www.metaltekint.com/Bearium/ Bob
There are many bronze alloys and bearing bronze alloys. 13" is the stocked length sold at bearing stores. If the surface is not porous looking, although it may be rough, it will be solid bearing bronze of tin of aluminum alloy. The "oily" stuff is "oilite" (R) sintered bronze bushings. It can be had in sticks and plates. Use very sharp edged tools to machine. RichD
Bob, I didn't even think to do a Google search. I thought I was dealing with a type of metal and not a made product. It looks like I should save this for that special project. Thanks for doing the search for me, I'll try doing my own next time g Tom
Rich. I was wondering the best way to machine it. Tom
Source for Wrought Iron
I'm looking for a source for wrought iron to build some ornamental iron work. Any ideas? If no wrought iron is available at a reasonable price I'll use locally available mild steel, probably a better choice anyway. I also want some steel balls ( insert desired pun here!!) for the same ornamental work. What I'm looking for would be about 3 or 4 inches in diameter 1 - 1 1/2 inches diameter. It is for decorative work so I'd like them to be hollow (again, insert pun here) so as to be not too heavy. I'm not sure, but I think the hollow balls of any material will be hard to find. Rick (22478)
Good luck finding it, where are you located? The 'wrought iron' decorative objects commonly available here are actually A36 steel. For the spherical objects you quest try a place that deals with pipe handrails. The steel supplier I deal with has quite a few different clamps and end pieces for making pipe racks and railings. JP (22481)
I don't know if they can/will help, but there is a place right around the corner from me that does ornamental iron work, and they might be able to guide you. Steel Heart 208 W. Front St. Harvard, Ill. 60033 Contact: Gretchen Peczkowski Phone: 815-943-3465 Fax: 815-943-3467 - Scott Logan (22482)
Rick, come on over to the wrought iron group I co mod. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ornamentiron/  Wrought iron is my little business on the side. Bob (22485)
Look at http://www.hooverfence.com/ornamental/postcaps/bc1.htm  This is just one of many sources for ornamental iron stuff. Do a Google search for "ornamental iron parts". Mario (22510)
That's right up the road from me, that's where I used to buy my parts. Bob (22511)
Rick, Today most people do not realize that there is a difference between wrought iron and mild steel. Too often the term wrought iron is used as a description for railing and architectural trim, rather than a material. Even after the availability of cheaper and stronger steel, wrought iron was often used because of its corrosion and fatigue resistant properties when compared mild steels. The production of true wrought iron ended in this country with the closing of the A. M. Beyers Company of Pittsburg Pennsylvania in the late 1950's. It was available from England, and supposedly from India (very questionable quality) for many years (at least into the early 1970's), but I do not believe there is a current source. Look around your area for an old house with a wrought iron fence in disrepair they would like to get rid of. There are more of them than you might think, as true wrought iron is hard to repair with modern methods if one isn't familiar with the material. It does not cut well with an oxy-fuel torch, and arc welding requires a different technique than steel for good results. Old bridges, old railroad equipment and old piping are also a good source. Look for black rust not black paint. Black rust that protects the underlying material is one of the hallmarks of true wrought iron. A civil war iron clad really was an iron clad. In fact ships, locomotives, railroad rail, and practically everything else that was ferrous and not cast in that era and on until the 1890's was wrought iron. Rich (22516)
While visiting a friend last Saturday I saw an old wagon tire, (i.e., the steel band on a wagon wheel) lying on the ground. It was split along the side in some places revealing the grain - wrought iron. Greg (23888)
I used to be a wheelwright and carriage builder in my working days. It's true that almost all OLD cart/wagon tyres (English spelling) were made from wrought iron, but from earlish in the 20th C, over here at least, they began to use steel. The way to tell the difference is to look for the so called "shut" joint, which was fire welded (sweated) together...if joined like that it will be wrought iron. An arc or gas weld means the material is almost certainly steel. Len (23893)
Interesting info. I've noticed tires which are still lying around my place which have what I would call a lap joint. The edges are feathered and forge welded. I think that's what you are referring to. Stuff does seem to last forever, tho. The tires here have been outside since about two days after God created the universe and they still haven't rusted away. I don't make knives, but it seems wrought iron would be great for them. Greg (23894)
I'll bet it wouldn't hold an edge. I also seem to remember that the ductility (flexibility) is not so great. (23895)
Yeah, that's the joint I mean. feathered out about 15 or 16 times the thickness was the old rule, so a 1/4" thick tyre would be feathered off about 4", and the two ends brought to weld heat and hammered together. On the knife query. I had a leather strap splitter on which the cutting blade broke in half, and I made a replacement from an old file. Once ground and honed, it rarely needed sharpening. Not my idea, many blacksmiths here made bill hooks (sort of like a broad knife-like chopper, with a curved over hooked end) from used shoeing rasps. Old fellas I've talked to reckoned this was the best steel for cutting instruments of all kinds, and usually free! Might be worth a try for a knife? Len (23897)
A couple of smiths up here make knives. They hammer out the steel, fold it back over and hammer it out again many times. They are real finicky in the fire quality and heat. When they are done, and it is a lengthy process, you can hack apart a steel 55 gallon drum with a sword and not have a nick in the blade They also don't go cheap either. JP (23902)
Not much by way of experience here, but, from what I have read heard an excellent material for knives edge tools in general is a sandwich of wrought iron for toughness steel for edge holding characteristics forged together. Old time smiths probably used this method because steel was very expensive relative to wrought which was mostly dug out of the bog and sometimes referred to as bog iron. joe (23904)
When they do this, they are orienting the steel grain structure to best resist the cutting forces. The higher level of working at the edge give a finer grain for better toughness. The heat has to be right. Too cold and you overwork the material, making it brittle. Too hot and the grain can realign, losing all the work you've done. The steel is called Damascus after the town Damascus in Syria. The local iron had impurities that limited how hot it could be when worked. By coincidence, the working temp band was the right temp to manipulate the grain structure. What was originally thought to be superior steel was actually poor steel better processed. Bill E (23908)
Dura-Bar / MLA Faceplate
C.I. is wonderful, but messy to machine. Offering small chunks of Dura-Bar would be a great resource for the group. I can see using it for face-plates, backing-plates, handwheels, flywheels, pulleys. Of course it would have to be worth everyone's while -- cost effective for hobbyists, and profitable for Scott (or whoever) to sell. At 0.26 pounds per cubic inch, shipping raw chunks of metal is gunna cost, I'll bet. Rough calc for a 9" dia, 1.5" thick round is about 25 pounds if my math is right! Please do look into this, Scott, and let the group know if it might work out. Paul H (23307)
Gotta relate a story. I still laugh at it. When I was about 19, I worked in a shop in Trenton NJ, Horvath Tool or some such. Anyway, we were making a bunch of cast iron rings. about 24 dia, 24 high, hollow and tapered like stepped funnels. I think these were to hold screens for a filter or something. I was doing the OD on a vertical boring machine and the guy on the other machine was doing the ID. Funny guy. First time I had worked with a black man and based on him, I couldn't see why people were racist... anyway... Cast iron is dusty, dusty stuff. We got covered with the dust. Lunch rolled around and we went to wash up. He starts washing and then starts acting all nervous and jumpy.. " ah....ah.. it's coming off !.... there gonna make me sit in the front of the bus !..." OK, it make ME laugh anyway. Dave (23309)
Paul, I'm still working on some prices for the larger sizes, but I can give you something to mull over. I should have pricing on 9" slugs soon. The weight on 9" round is approx 18 pounds per inch. We use 6-1/2 Dia Round G2 DuraBar, saw cut 1-3/8" long for the chuck backs for the Logan Lathes. If anyone wants them, the price is $24 each. Shipping weight is approx 15 pounds each, and we can ship UPS anywhere. I do not have these on our online store, so if anyone wants to order, call, email, fax etc. Reference our Part Number CIR-20801. - Scott S. Logan (23311)
USPS will ship up to 70 lbs by priority mail to US address for $7.70 if it will fit in one of two sized boxes as follows. . Ship Priority Mail Flat Rate Boxes for only $7.70. . The inside dimensions for the two boxes available are 11" x 8.5" x 5.5" and 13.625" x 11.875" x 3.375". That's a pretty good chunk of Cast Iron. John (23314)
About shipping, I ship my files to Boggs tool in CA for sharpening. The amount of stuff you can fit into the priority flat rate envelope is amazing. The postal workers usually give me funny looks. $3.85 USD if it fits into the envelope. if it BR 5.5" BR Mike (23316)
Based on a request from Bob, I have prices for the 9" Dura-Bar. One piece, 9" Dia., 2" Lg., price is $65.95. If one individual needs or wants 5 or more pieces, the price is $47.60. Note that these are approx 35 pounds EACH. Delivery should be less than a week for any of the sizes quoted so far. I will be placing an order next week for some material, so if anyone wants to place an order for these sizes or something else, please let me know ASAP. Scott (23319)
One more comment- A "few" years ago, I worked for a small medical company that made, among other things, halo braces for broken necks and meters that monitored blood flow in reattached body parts (fingers, arms, etc. As you can imagine, these devices needed to be get to the hospital fairly quickly. We never used USPS because it was a lot more work for us. A company that is willing to ship USPS is really doing you a favor, in my opinion. At the time, I drove a bright yellow Dodge Charger 440 Magnum with black stripes and would occasionally push the speed limit on local deliveries. Never got pulled over but always wondered what the police would do if you were delivering an emergency medical device. I started at this company as a machinist. The halo braces were first made out of Delrin, stainless, and aluminum with helicoils. At the end of a "delrin" day, I would have a pile of shavings as tall as the mill table. The rings around the head were made from 1/4 by 3/4 6061 aluminum. I would round the edges on the mill then bend the hoops around wood forms. They were sent out for heliarc welding than 20 holes were drilled and helicoiled 1/4-28- up to 1000 helicoils a day. Later we converted the ring to carbon fiber reinforced epoxy and the hardware to titanium. These we drilled and tapped directly. A carbide tap would do about 2 rings before it was too dull. When I left, we were throwing away 30 taps a day. We tried TiN but the issue wasn't hardness, the material was abrasive and the Tin would be gone in a few holes. We used graphite because it wouldn't heat up or spark in a magnetic resonance imaging machine. The carbon fiber had enough resistance to not heat themselves but conducted enough to keep the titanium pins screwed into your skull from developing a charge. A patent on an earlier design is here that gives some background: http://freepatentsonline.com/4541421.html  They used to go for $1200 new so that is quite a deal ;-) This one is missing the headpins but I imagine they didn't clean up too well. Lathe content- the carbon fiber rings were made by winding continuous carbon fibers "wet" on aluminum mandrels. We used an old Hendy gearhead lathe to spin the mandrels. After curing, we cut the back section out to allow surgical access. We used one of those sub-$200 cutoff saws and threw them away every few months. Kinda wish I'd kept one now. Bill (23350)
Tuflok Plastic Rivets
I'm looking for a retail source of regular and screw-type Tuflok plastic rivets. These rivets are reusable rivets; regular Tuflok's are push/pull insertion and removal, whereas the screw-type push in, but screw out. http://www.itw-fastex.com I've found many companies that sell them wholesale or in large quantities ($100 minimum, etc), but I'm looking for much small quantities. Dave (23753)
Have you checked McMaster? They have just about everything. I think their slogan should be "If we don't have it - you don't need it". Alex (23754)
Dave, Most automotive supply houses sell them. Jap cars use them by the bucket full. Sometimes they are in the hardware section, sometimes in the "Help" section- the rows of funky parts on red cardboard backs. Our local Pep Boys had the best selection I found. The aren't cheap. Bill (23756)
Source for Copper Sheet
Is there a source for copper sheet in Northern New Jersey? I am planning a project similar to Norm Abram's (New Yankee Workshop) gardener's dry sink. I am sizing up the job, getting a materials list, and I want to know if I can get the copper locally. George (23898)
Check out roofing contractors. They use copper for flashing on high end jobs. Glen (23899)
I have bought copper flashing at Home Depot. JP (23903)
US equivalent to PGMS BMS?
Many UK plans call for PGMS, precision ground mild steel, and BMS, bright mild steel. Enquiries at the local stockists just get me blank looks. Are there US equivalents? Bernard R (25038)
PGMS = polished ground mild steel. A US manf designation. not available from all distributors BMS = bright mild steel = CRS = cold rolled steel. Pickeled and cold finished. Alloy 1018, etc HRS = hot rolled steel = as rolled, with black scale, not pickled. Alloy 1018, A36, etc RichD (25039)
Rich, Isn't PGMS equivalent to drill rod here? George (25040)
PGMS might be replaced by Ground and Polished steel, which is commonly AISI 1215. BMS is usually compared to AISI 1215 or 12L14. FWIW, Silver Steel is Drill Rod. - Scott S. Logan (25041)
George, More correctly: PGMS = GPMS (US) Ground polished mild steel and other alloys Silver Steel = Drill Rod (US) annealed plain high carbon tool steel rounds. (25045)
The Model Engineers Handbook is the de facto standard for all UK HSMs, in it is the reference to Bright Drawn Steel. The following is the relevant chapter. "The majority of model engineers purchase their supplies the the bright drawn condition. In this state the steel has very different properties from those listed in the reference books where the material is usually in the 'hot rolled' or 'normalized' state. The effect of bright drawing whether from the hot rolled or normalized bar is to reduce the ductility - often quite severely - and to increase the Ultimate and Yield strength of the steel. The effect is greater in the smaller sections. In all cases where ductility is important, and especially when any cold bending is to carried out, it is recommended either that 'black' bar be used, (machined to size if need be) or that the work be annealed before forming." Thanks to all those who responded to the earlier post. Bernard R (25059)

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