| 3MT to 3AT adapter (Nov
12, 2001) |
Hinge pin set up (Oct
12, 2003) |
| Nuts! (Feb 16, 2002) |
Cam locks (Oct 22, 2003) |
| Speaking of Aprons (Mar
21, 2002) |
Heavy 10 dial indicator holders
(Oct 27, 2003) |
| Concentric bores and tapers
(Apr 10, 2002) |
Grooves (Jan 20, 2004) |
| Turnbuckle Rod Length?
(Jul 25, 2002) |
Opinion needed on Jacobs 59B
(Mar 19, 2004) |
| 9 inch cabinet conversion
(Jan 27, 2003 |
D1-4 camlock pins (May
19, 2004) |
| 3MT to 2MT reducer
(Jun
3, 2003) |
Screwlock to Pullknob
(Jun 7, 2004) |
| Standard VS Direct Reading
Graduated Collars (Jun 18, 2003) |
Centre sleeve (Sep 6,
2004) |
| Direct reading micrometer collars
(Jul 14, 2003) |
9" S/B plunger style detent
(Jan 17, 2005) |
| Jack shaft fix (Aug 28,
2003) |
Shaft Repair (Feb
2, 2005) |
| |
| 3MT to 3AT adapter |
| I bought a S/B box of collets which were supposed to be for a 9 inch
S/B lathe. When I got them they were all 3AT but there was no
adapter with them. The only thing about them that was S/B was the
box. Does any one know where to buy a 3MT to 3AT adapter, or is that
what I need. Cal (2132) |
| Check MSC; I got an r8 to 3mt from
them. LEW (2133) |
| Nuts! |
| On the 9" lathe Cat
# CL615Y, part # PT295R1 is the nut holding the crank handle to the
crossfeed screw. Is this a weird sort of nut calling for a special
wrench or has the previous owner jury-rigged something?
Johnny (3284) |
| Is this what your
encountering??
http://photos.groups.yahoo.com/group/southbendlathe/vwp?.dir=/FeedScrew+Bushings.src=gr.dnm=Notched+nut+driver.jpg Fred (3286) |
| Lets try this
again. Is this the object of your affliction? Check under the
photos section, "feed screw bushing", Notched. May answer your
question Fred (3287) |
| Pic #5
shows what I anticipated finding. What is there appears to be a
hex-nut with a rounded dome, similar to the standard feed-screw nut,
but with no slits, and hex-corners showing, but run in so far I
can't get ANYTHING to bite. I may have to remove it by bumping it
with a chisel. The compound has the proper nut. Johnny (3288) |
| Speaking of
Aprons |
| Does anybody know where I can find a good heavy, LONG shop apron
that doesn't shrink 25% when washed?? I am 6 ft tall, circa 200 lbs so
not a giant at all. I keep buying the longest ones at TrueValue (
dark blue cotton, about $6, turn it inside out if you don't like
pockets) because it is the biggest and sturdiest one I can find, but
the dang things shrink 20 -25% when washed ONCE. I want one that
comes over my knees when sitting down at a stool or bench for
tabletop work and this one is the right size - BEFORE washing.
(3670) |
| There are some
leather ones. I got one from Garret Wade some time ago and yes its
not washable but that hasn't been a real problem. I am 6'3" and it
come down to mid calf. Just an idea. Yasmiin(3672) |
| I would splice two
together after pre-washing both. (3673) |
| I thought of that,
but unless one really started out to make a new one up complete out
of the various parts, that would give me a really long and way too
skinny one, or one really wide but way too short. would have to move
at least one of the ties, and add on to both the width and length. I
was thinking of taking an old pair of jeans and splitting down the
fronts so that legs could be sewn together in the middle and back
hip pockets would then be on the front chest - the waistband could
snap behind the neck, then put on a tie string and away we go!
pre-washed and shrunk, just not too fireproof. It gets lots easier
if you start with bib overalls but I don't have any of those without
big holes. leather is great but much more expensive and most leather
doesn't endure repeated washings and exposure to oil very well. Has
anybody else found really durable and economical ones or made up
their own aprons? (3674) |
| You wash your shop
apron? (3675) |
| Yeah - when they
start to drip and reek, or start to crawl on their own, or when you
untie them and they still won't let go - then I like to drown them
well and start over. I hate getting those crawlie things on the
inside - it makes me jump just when I want the weld to be nice and
smooth.
(3676) |
| May be too tough
for machine shop, but- a welders leather apron can save a lot of
clothing and will not shrink unless heated above and beyond normal
temps. (3683) |
| I got one of the
leather ones from grizzly and it has been holding up well. Had to
lengthen the strap a bit though. Apparently there are not that many
6'4" 375lb men in china. (3686) |
| Only when it gets
so stiff I prop it up against the machine, or whenever it starts
smelling like 30 year old differential grease. Ben (3688) |
| I found a good,
used, leather apron at the Boeing Surplus Store in Wichita. I don't
know where you are, but if you are in that area that store is a very
good source for some really cool stuff. Lots of aluminum stock. Rick
(3692) |
| Concentric
bores and tapers |
| All of you with
more than one lathe or a lathe and drill with interchangeable taper
tools have probably run into this item. I have a tailstock chuck
that is used on more than one lathe. I am suspicious that either the
taper in one or both lathes is out of center ( non-concentric) with
the headstock, or that the chuck taper is very slightly bent or worn
so that the chuck does not seat on exactly the same centerline in
the tailstock all the time. this chuck makes perfect holes with
center drills, doesn't seem to indicate bad for any measurements I
have taken, but on longer drills tends to bellmouth the hole
slightly or show a slightly off center drillpoint. doesn't do it
exactly the same on both, or all one one and none on the other -
lathes either so I cant tell how much is due to the lathe
tailstock/headstock misalignment and how much is the taper on the
tool. the other test is to check if the tailstock tapers and
headstock tapers are concentric - what is the easiest method to
check this? (I tried the method with taper dead centers in both -
too small a difference for me to see) the chuck taper indicates
fairly close to true when turned between (short) centers. is it
possible that the jaws or the chuck section of the arbor have been
bent? (I have never seen or heard of this but doesn't mean couldn't
happen). has anybody else ever had this problem, and what was the
easiest way to solve it. I do not want to try to regrind the chuck
taper unless this is absolutely necessary. my tests so far have been
limited to chucking a drill rod in the suspect chuck and then other
end in the headstock - then indicate the taper to see if it wobbles.
(3890) |
| I don't think your
problem is as bad as you think. Longer drills are going to deflect,
and there's not a lot you can do about it. Buying a set of
screw-machine length drills will help, but there will still be
deflection. Drills are just too springy, and there is too much force
involved for them to stay straight. Drills will deflect visibly, and
this is responsible for 99.9% of your error, at least - the other
0.1% being due to (possible) tailstock misalignment. I have seen
lash-ups where guys will put a bar in the toolpost to push against
the drill to help keep it from deflecting (like a sort of reverse
follower rest) but have had much success with that. Never count on a
drill to drill on size or on center. If you need size, ream it after
drilling under size. If you need location, bore it. If you need
both, bore very carefully or bore then ream. Dave
(3891) |
| This has been my
experience also, I just recently made a 5c collet holder for my 9in
SB and I was trying to drill through a piece of 3 in dia steel rod
about 8 inches long. I drilled a 5/8 inch dia hole to get a boring
bar started in, to bore the inside to the collet OD. I was amazed
when I stared boring how much the large stiff drill bit had wandered
off course over the 8 or so inches. I bored to a little under size
and then honed to exact size. Dallas (3897) |
| Turnbuckle Rod
Length? |
| When I cleaned up
my SB 9" A HMD, I noticed a weld discoloration on the RH turnbuckle
rod but figured it was a good repair and thereafter ignored it. Now,
I think the rod was shortened or cut, either on purpose or accident
as I cannot seem to get the proper spacing between the lathe base
and the motor mount- 15 3/4" Can anyone measure theirs and fire off
a quick response to me? Is there a replacement part in one of the
local depots/hardware stores or is this another part I'm going to
have to bid/beg for. (5377) |
| I just used a
standard turnbuckle and straighten out the rings to create 90 deg
bends, works for me. (5381) |
| Those turnbuckles
were made in many configurations over the years. Even the
engineering dept of SBL was unable to sort out the one on mine. I
ordered the assembly from them when I was setting up the machine,
and the parts didn't fit. They finally made one based on my
measurements, and send it to me at no charge. So my lathe is all
south bend. The machine is 1942 vintage and in excellent condition,
so I wanted it that way. You may or may not want to go that rout.
However the length of the drive belt does make a difference to the
smoothness of the lathe. Be sure that whatever arrangement you come
up with gives a close approximation of that belt length as they show
it. That thing doesn't even need to be a turnbuckle, you can make
the rods from 3/8 cold rolled steel, the barrel can be a piece of 1"
brass or steel with a tapped hole in one end, and a reamed 3/8 hole
in the other. Only thread one of the rods, face the other one off
for smooth operation in the reamed hole. Nurling the barrel is the
finishing touch. I use a setup like this to tension the belt on a
home brew drive unit for an antique Pratt Whitney lathe. Wood blocks
can be used as temporary tensioners while you use the lathe to fix
its self. RC (5382) |
| 9 inch cabinet
conversion |
| Is it possible to
convert a 9" x 42 with the motor in the back to a cabinet model with
the motor underneath? It would sure save some space out in my
garage. (8964) |
| The underdrive
models used a different bed and headstock casting to allow the drive
belt to pass up to the spindle. Best to find a nice UND model with a
cabinet and sell your rear drive. Make sure you get the one with the
drawers, they are so convenient. Peter (8968) |
| 3MT to 2MT
reducer |
| Good point about a
non-hardened reducer. Also, I would think also that a head-stock
center does not necessarily need to be hardened at all. Given this,
it seems that an excellent center could be made in the lathe itself
and the 60 degree center projection could be optimized for your
lathe. I'm guessing that if the taper inside the head-stock is
shorter than a standard 3MT, you may be able to turn that taper in
one compound setting, then install the taper blank into the spindle
and machine the 60 degree point. Mark the center so it is indexed to
the spindle and you have a very accurate head-stock center, and one
that can be renew/o a TP grinder. Paul R. (11720) |
| I think I have the
factory explanation on this subject. I hope I explain it where it
makes sense to all of you. South Bend Lathe headstock spindles have
the same angle or taper per foot as a Morse taper, however, the
diameter of the hole through the spindle is too large to accept a
standard morse taper. The spindle sleeve fits the larger diameter of
the spindle and has an ID for the proper Morse taper. I apologize if
this does not make sense. I am not a machinist in any way, shape or
form. This information came from the Service Manager at South Bend.
I hope I explained it the way he explained it to me. Rose
(11740) |
| If I understand correctly, the headstock spindle has
the same taper as a #3MT, but not the same length. I recently
purchased a used 3C collet adapter that does not go all the way into
the spindle. So I'm figuring the taper in the headstock is the
narrower end of a #3MT. Does this sound right? With that given, I'm
in the process of setting up my lathe to do light milling. I've
already purchased a milling attachment and am trying to get a draw
bar. Do I go with a #3MT mill holder, or with a #2MT mill holder
with the adapter? I've asked this before and thought I understood
the answers I received, but this situation with the size of the
headstock kind of has me baffled again. (11742) |
| The 3c collets fit
into the headstock adapter for the collets, not the headstock
adapter for the Morse Taper. Two different items. There are #3mt
collets available that fit directly. Max (11744) |
| Max, Yes that's
right. The collet adapter is to adapt 3C collets to the taper in the
spindle. Still trying to figure out if it's supposed to stick out
roughly about 1/2" from the end of the spindle. My question is, will
a #3MT mill holder (whether it's the type for a draw bar or just
held on by the taper) fit in the headstock correctly? Dave (11745) |
| Standard VS
Direct Reading Graduated Collars |
| Looking in the
Army SB parts manual it mentions a standard and a direct reading
graduated collar for the cross feed screw (page 10). What's the
difference? Dave (12078) |
| On the
standard collar, each graduation represents 1 thou. movement of the
feed, therefore 2 thou. cut from the diameter. The direct reading
collars, bigger and nicer looking as well as easier to read, advance
the screw a half thou. per graduation, therefore directly
representing a 1 thou. cut. Changing to the larger type is
reasonably easy, though it could be necessary to make an adapter to
fit behind the collar to take the datum scribe mark for the collar
to read against. Len (12080) |
| Len,
I'll put a dial indicator on it this afternoon to see what I have. I
do have a large dial, but if I hear right, I could still have either
one. Dave (12081) |
| Dave, 200
graduations per revolution is "direct reading" 100 per rev. is
normal. Glen (12084) |
| Direct reading
micrometer collars |
| Are the larger
direct reading micrometer collars retro-fitable to my 1942 SBL9B? I
know I need a new cross feed bushing etc. JG (12688) |
| Jon- Back in 1942
South Bend used standard reading dials. In late 1959 they switched
to larger direct reading dials. When they switched the dials they
modified the screw. My understanding is that if you try to put a
direct read dial on a lathe from 1942 it will not fit properly, due
to the change in the screw and the bushing. I do not know if that
can be made to fit since I know nothing about running a lathe. We,
of course, recommend that the screw and the bushing are replaced at
the same time. Rose Marvin (12723) |
| One point to bear
in mind, regardless of any other fit consideration, is that the
larger dial will obviously no longer line up with the datum mark on
the (now) smaller bushing. I made brass "over collars" drilled and
tapped in the side and with a set screw, that fit around the old
bushing to carry the scribed mark. As I fitted Boxford collars I
can't comment on what Rose has said here if SB parts are used,
though I had no problems with the Boxford ones. Len (12726) |
| I have the direct
reading dials on my 10K, but would like to make larger ones so that
the divisions are clearer to my ol' eyes. There seems to be enough
clearance to put on larger dials and I was wondering if anyone had
ever tried to make bigger ones in the form of collars that slip onto
the present dials and are just affixed with a setscrew? Frank
(12730) |
| Going to he larger
dials won't make the divisions easier to see, there are 200 of the
instead of 100. I don't see why you couldn't make larger collars for
your direct reading dials, which would spread out the graduations
and should be easier to see. Rick(12731) |
| It was a piece of
cake (well, brass) to make the single line reference collars with
set screw when I fitted the larger Boxford dials. Ones to fit over
the dial would be just as easy. marking the divisions would be the
harder part I'd guess. BTW, the Boxford dials I fitted to my SB
model C, were old style, and though much bigger, were still the 100
grad. type. Len (12733) |
| Jon, One of my
lathes has a much larger dial on the cross slide feed. It also has a
longer bushing so that you don't lose any cross slide travel from
the slide bumping into the dial. This is why the bushing and
feedscrew need to be replaced when you buy one of Rose's direct
reading dials. Glen (12739) |
| Jack shaft fix
|
| I am working on an old southbend lathe
(around 1964?) I think it has 24 inch swing and 6' bed. My question
is the bottom shaft that has the different size pulleys for the flat
belts needs new bearings. This is the shaft that is fed by the
motor. Do you need to take this whole assy. out to replace bearings?
I am starting to take the pivot shaft out and have blocks of wood
under it to catch it. Am i doing this wrong? Seems like a lot of
work . (13654) |
| Rich My lathe is a
heavy 10", not a 16/24" (which sounds like what you have). However
it has a similar underneath motor drive (UMD), from my understanding
of your lathe. On my lathe is it possible to remove the countershaft
you mention without removing the whole UMD assembly. My lathe is a
bench lathe with a SB-supplied steel bench. The bench has a
removable end to allow the shaft to be slid out. It looks from a
parts breakdown like the cast base on yours has a similar removable
panel on the end. On mine the motor pulley (on which the v-belt from
the motor runs) is pinned to the shaft, so you will either need a
big enough panel in the end to clear the pulley (which mine has) or
you would need to drive out the (tapered) pin with the shaft in
place and remove the pulley. On mine the bearings can be removed
from the carrier while still on the shaft, at least far enough to
remove the flat belt. I have never removed mine all the way. From
the parts list it looks like yours is similar. If you can't see them
there are a pair of nuts on the right end of the shaft which I
expect would need to be removed. The step pulley for the flat belt
has a setscrew which would need to be removed. BTW, for South Bend
lathes, a 1964 model is almost new, not old. Frank
(13689) |
| Rich, now this
can be an honorable job!!! looks straight forward but do not take
lightly. Easiest fix are the bearings really bad or need cleaning
and fresh grease. If ya don't have it half ripped apart by now you
can pop the shields off the inner sides of the brgs. and clean them
with solvent/spray cleaner etc and if the roughness works out u
should be in good shape. Regrease and pop the shields back on. If
you are into the pivot shaft it will probably be easier to remove the
entire assembly starting with motor. Motor can be lowered to lumber
and slid out, then entire c/shaft assembly, pivot shaft and its
mounting plate degutted as one assembly. Let me know where your at
and maybe I can give ya a few pointers. Stirboy(13696) |
| The counter shaft
has two oil cups on each side, but it's weird, I can't see the
bearings (I almost thought there might be bushings in there) I tried
to remove whole assy. but the pivot shaft would only drive out 4
inches either way. Finally out of desperation yanked on the pulley
and freed it up and oiled the cups. It seems two be working fine
now. The tops of the bearing castings there are slots, are these for
oil? I dumped a lot of oil in them. These oil cups are out of sight
out of mind. I don't think anyone new they were there. (13708) |
| Rich I'm thinking
you saved yourself a lot of work. What you have sounds different than my
10 RKL. If it has oil cups then the c/shaft is probably set up with
bushings but I could be wrong. On mine the brgs. are very easy to
see. Well at least ya got it spinnin. stirboy (13710) |
| Hinge pin set
up |
| I have a quick
change collet closer lever for my 3c collets. The brace arm of this
is supposed to line up and fit somehow with the door cover pin. I
would love to see a picture of this set up done properly. I gave up
trying and made a brace, up from the back of the lathe base frame
and mounted it that way. Looks the sh--s but does work after a
fashion. Anyone know where I could gleen a pic of this setup?
(14402) |
| On my 13"
SB the pin for that lever or bracket sits in a threaded hole just
behind the Rear Bearing Cap. I believe I have heard others talk
about another blind drilled and tapped hole in their Rear Bearing
Cap. I wouldn't think that it would hinge off something that is a
hinge point itself. Ron (14404) |
| Cam locks |
| I have a D1-4
CamLock spindle. I'm having a hard time finding any used Camlock
"anything" ! So I was wondering if I got one of those Cushman
adapter plates of E- bay I could bolt on a piece of stainless and
make myself a drive plate right. The catch is that the Cushman
adapters don't have the pins. The seller is asking $21 bucks a pop
for the little buggers. My Sowa catalogue (Kitchener Canada) lists a
3 piece set of Bison pins for $16. So the question is will they fit? Mike
(14577) |
| Recently, Harbor
Freight listed an 8" or 6" dia. D1-4 backing plate. Might be just
what you want. ~$40. JOP (14623) |
| Heavy 10 dial
indicator holders |
| I'm looking for
info on mounting dial indicators on a heavy 10 lathe. I would either
like to buy them if available or I can make them. If I have to make
them I was hoping someone might have some sketches or prints for
them. I want to get these for my dad for xmas. I work in a shop
where we have have mills, lathes, surface grinders, and a few other
goodies. Mike
(14636) |
| Metal lathe
accessories has a kit (rough casting) for the 9". You might be able
to modify it for a heavy 10. They are in the links section. sc-c.com/metallathe
JP (14638) |
| Grooves |
| I suspect they may
have been a place for crud to collect rather than circulating and
embedding in the bearing material. Probably not extremely effective
and possibly more harm than good but my 14.5" SB of 1940 vintage has
'em and since the bearings were in good condition, I figured I leave
the worry to the 8th or 10th owner after me. WD (16651) |
| The grooves allow a
place for oil and metal particles to collect. From there they "flow"
back to the end of the journal where they flow down through the
return holes to the reservoir. The wicks continue to bring up fresh
oil and serve as filters to keep the metal particles from
re-entering the bearings. (16654) |
| Opinion needed
on Jacobs 59B |
| How would you guys
rate a Jacobs 59B with the following runout. I repeated these tests
with various pieces of stock and different tightening methods with
little variation. All measurements taken 3/4" from chuck. The chuck
body ran less than .002". Stock size Runout 3/16" 0.008" 1/4" 0.006"
5/16 3/8" 0.004" 1/2" 0.0025" 3/4" 0.001". Bob (17849) |
| Have you tried
turning a shaft between two centers and checking for run-out? Did
you take the back plate off and true it to your lathe? Mike (17857) |
| Mike, This is not a
"standard" chuck. There is no back plate in the usual 3,4,6 jaw
manner. It is a Jacobs chuck designed to run on the spindle of a
lathe. The body runs true on my lathe with about 0.0015 runout. The
thicker pieces of stock run well but the thin stuff is way out. I
just bought the thing and haven't contacted the seller yet. Bob D (17862) |
| Bob, After I sent
my e-mail I realized what you were referring to. My mistake. I have
owned a few of the type of chuck you have and all I used them for
was holding drill bits when using a drilling pad mounted in the tail
stock. Actually I can't think of a reason to use a headstock chuck
for anything other than holding drill bits. Unless you don't have a
three or four jaw chuck. If you don't have a four jaw chuck I have
one made by Skinner Chuck Co. and it is stamped South Bend Lathe
Wks, number 4006. 4 jaws and the jaws are reversible. Mike (17865)
|
| D1-4 camlock
pins |
| Does anyone know of
a good source at a reasonable price for the pins only for a D1-4 chuck or backplate.
John (19166) |
| I have the
pins I pulled off a new Cushman 8 inch 3 jaw but I don't know if it
was a D ? or D ? . They are brand new, I converted the chuck to 2
1/4 8 for my H 10. If you can tell me the measurements of the pins
you need I can see it these are what you need. If so you are welcome
to them for freight. Grumpy (19169) |
| There are (at
least) two variations. The studs for D1-4 Camlock Spindles are 5/8"
diameter, but may have two different thread sizes. Either 7/16-20 or
M10x1. We can provide either. For more information on some of the
more common spindle noses, see:
http://lathe.com/spindle_noses.htm
Scott Logan (19170) |
| Screwlock to
Pullknob |
| I want to convert
my 9" screwlock reverse lever to the newer style. Can anyone shed
some light on this and where to find the parts? (19520) |
| Get a
plunger reverser for a 10K. The old gears can be used. This is a
drop in replacement. I did mine last year. Next machine a plate from
3/8" steel plate from the drawing. Let me know when you get the
parts. I will have the drawing. RichD P.S. Did late model 9" SB
Lathes have a plunger reverser? (19523) |
| Will the
reverser from a heavy 10 work as well? RichD (19525) |
| Johnny, I don't
think so. The reverser parts are found on Ebay sometimes or call
Plaza Machinery, Sobel, etc. RichD (19526) |
| Johnny There was a
drawing in the file section some time ago. I think this is the one
RichD is referring too. It is a simple plate that screws on to the
headstock and has the detent holes in it. My SB uses the pull knob,
but when I got it all the drive train was missing. I was never able
to get the knob type reverser but did get the screwlock type off of
ebay. I cut off the handle and screand JB welded an adaptor for a
homemade pull knob. It works fine. There was some other minor
machining required but it was done on the lathe. If you can get the
pull knob plunger - great, otherwise get the drawing from RichD and
modify your reverser to fit. John (19535) |
| Centre sleeve |
| I
am the happy owner of a 9" model C lathe. Now there is one thing I
cannot quite figure out: for turning between centers, does the
head-stock centre fit in the spindle together with a special
`spindle sleeve' or is this done differently? I have a collet set,
which includes a collet sleeve, with what seems to be a MT2 inner
taper. Only the little protrusion inside prevents a normal centre to
fit in. Or does the headstock centre have a notch as the collets do?
Wouter. (20781) |
| There is a
special spindle sleeve to use for the head stock. It don't have no
notch in it. It has Morse taper 3 outside taper and a morse taper 2
on the inside that holds a mores taper 2 center. You can sometimes
find these on Ebay for around $20 to $30 used. The sleeve you have
are for collets only. Gary (20784) |
| Gary, This means
that I can use any Morse taper sleeve with an 3MT outside and 2MT
inside? Or even just a 3MT centre directly in the spindle? Wouter. (20787) |
| The MT3 center will
stick out further. Your lathe dog may not have a long enough tail.
Glen (20790) |
| 9" S/B plunger
style detent |
| Does anyone have or
know where I could find a drawing of the detent plate to install the
plunger style reverse lever on an older 9" South Bend? I have seen
posts about a drawing but I have not been able to find it. Bill (24051) |
| This is the
one I did on mine. Get a 10K rev bracket, with or without gears, to
start. Rich (24052) |
| How do you
guys finish a piece like this? The production of the radius (convex
concave) leaves me feeling somewhat lacking in my skills. How do you
achieve the switch from one radii to another with no discernible
machine marks. Tony(24074) |
| A good and
comprehensive set of decent files! JWE (24075) |
| How do you achieve
the initial radius - before filing? I just don't seem able to get my
head round radii (no pun intended) or is it all down to a milling
machine I have only got a 9" SB. Tony (24076) |
| Drills or end mills
and rotary tables to rotate the work or even a pivot shaft at the
center of a radius to pivot on. JWE (24077) |
| Shaft Repair
|
| I
have to repair a splined shaft this weekend. The end part that is
worn is smooth (Not splined at that portion.), just worn from a
bearing. Hard to find replacement parts for a Massey Harris tractor.
We plan to lay weld into the worn spot and machine off the excess.
The shaft is less than 2' long, and still has the factory centers
drilled into the end. I plan to set it up with a dog and centers. I
have HSS and carbide tooling. I also have a tool post grinder. I do
not think the shaft is hardened. What is the best rod to use for
filling. I want a surface that is fairly hard, but not too miserable
to machine. Suggestions? We have DC or old AC welders. We planned to
use the DC, just because the arc is smoother, and less spatter. No
Fancy MIG or TIG available. Mike
(24639) |
| Mike, What about
using a speedi-sleeve instead? Rick (24640) |
| My Daughter is a
certified welder. She recommends 7018 as opposed to 6010 She feels
that the 7018 will be more pliable and that the way the slag covers
it you will have less porosity Also the slag removes more easily The
down side is that she feels the 7018 is harder to run and recommends
that you practice a bit before trying this on your shaft. Jim
B. (24642) |
| Rick, No
knowledge of the speedi-sleeve technology. Can you send a link?
Mike (24645) |
|
http://www2.chicago-rawhide.com/PDF/Speedi-Sleeve%20%AESelection%20and%20Installation_50A.pdf (24647) |
| They're
even a local company! Mike
(24650) |
| Try 6013 works well
all around. Duane (24654) |
| My suggestion would
be to call the local welding supply shop and tell them your
situation. I did a similar job to a shaft but I can not remember the
designation of the rod. I believe it was classified as a "tool steel"
rod, made for rebuilding shafts, it welded very smooth and easy. Do
remember though that you will have to rotate the shaft 180 degrees
every weld so as not to warp the shaft. Chris (24655) |
| Mike, I have a
Massey for sale on eBay right now. Machining a weld is a miserable
process, you will need to use a grinder. The fill alloy in a weld is
a different material and much stronger than the base metal.
Generally the base material on a splined shaft on a tractor is 1045
which will harden around the weld. Your best bet is TIG and an
experienced welder to keep the shaft straight. If you must do it
yourself then grind away at the break at least i/3 the shaft dia and
clamp it to a firm piece of angle. Use 7018 rod and spot weld it all
around the break allowing it to cool between each pass. Check the
straightness each time as well. You can hammer it straight with just
a little bit of weld. Clean and wire brush (as in power cup brush)
between each layer of weld. After you have gone completely around
the shaft twice it should remain straight. JP (24660) |
| Having worked in a
machine shop that did some shaft repairs, we used some type of spray
welder. I think we had to machine down the worn area. Then they'd
spray on the weld material. It looked like a bronze base. Then it
was machined back to the original diameter. If I am interpreting
what damage was done to the shaft, you might look into this. I'd see
if you could do the machining yourself, then have a shop spray weld
it. Sounds like cost is a factor. As I remember we did more than a
few shafts this way, to restore bearing surfaces. Tom
(24661) |
| I used a speedi-shaft
to repair the front oil seal leak on one of the shafts on my car
about 30 years ago, I think it was the cam shaft, but could have
been the crank shaft (I can't remember). It worked great. And, I was
able to drive it on without taking the engine apart. You may be able
to get the size you need at your local auto parts store. Certainly
less risky than welding. I have also repaired the end of shafts with
bronze aluminum. It goes on more like brazing but is really tough
stuff. Many people use it to repair broken teeth on spur gears.
There was an article in Home Shop Machinist or one of those mags
about 6 months ago on shaft repair. They went over about three
different techniques and the pros and cons of each, along with
pictures of the results. Some very nice repairs were shown. The
biggest danger is warping the shaft, which of course is less
dangerous if you are fixing an end bearing, since you can re-true
the end, as opposed to a middle bearing surface that warps the whole
shaft. Neal (24662) |
| I don't know what
the best material would be, but an old book I have on oxy-acetylene
repairs I have gives the following advice on procedure: Lay down the
beads parallel with the axis The order should be (looking at the
shaft end) 12 o'clock 6 o'clock 3 o'clock 9 o'clock then move round a
little and keep in this order. The built up portion should be
reheated after the surfacing is completed and then allowed to cool
down slowly and uniformly It is also a good plan to hammer forge the
deposit while hot, thus consolidating and smoothing the weld metal.
I could probably scan and mail you the pages if that would help.
Nick
(24663) |
| Mike, What shaft is it? If it is not
mission-critical, welding may work but old steel can embrittle in a
hurry. You should probably preheat the area to reduce stress and to
get the old oil out. If you can't find an appropriate speedi sleeve
and the the shaft does something important like holding on a wheel,
I'd suggest sleeveing the area. Take the surface down a reasonable
amount- for a large shaft .040 per side? Take an oversized blank and
bore it to press fit over the cleaned surface. Once it is on the
shaft, you can finish machine the outside without worrying about
handling a thin sleeve. If your press fit ends up a bit loose,
LocTite makes an adhesive just for this purpose that works really
well. You could also tack the sleeve a couple places with the
welder. The LocTite stuff is really strong but can be removed with
moderate heat. Like the others, my experience with welding is not
good- shaft gets brittle, shaft warps, inclusions pock the surface,
ruining the seal, etc. As a good neighbor policy, our family would
fix the local's machinery and, as the youngest family member, I did
the fixing. A machine that still had paint and was never drawn by
horses would have a sleeve. Something you could pick up at any
auction for 10 bucks got welded and machined back. This was mostly
for bushing surfaces, though since few old farm machines feature
grease seals. What type of Massey are you fixing? We ran Fergusons
for years. Much better tractor than the 8N, in my view.
Bill
(24665) |
| For what it is
worth , probably nothing if you are in a real hurry ? But there was
a real good article on shaft repair in the Oct- Nov issue of
Machinist workshop. IAs a old tractor restorer I face these problems
quite a bit and I was very impressed with the article, a few ways
that I had not even thought about. Dee (24666) |
| Crap, I read what
you are doing and pictured what I need to do. For a bearing surface,
a speedi-sleeve won't work- you need clean, continuous purchase or
the sleeve will work loose. I'd still probably think machined sleeve
before welding. Once you hose up the welding job, you are hosed.
Since the bearing surface is almost never the smallest portion of a
shaft, machining it down usually doesn't compromise the overall
strength. If you are machining to a shoulder, leave a radius. Most
shaft breakage can be traced back to a sharp edge- a defect, a
shoulder, or corrosion pits. Both the front and rear axles on my
project need help. The rears have the inner seal area worn/rusted. I
hope to find a speedi- sleeve. The front spindles are underdesigned
and the bearing surfaces have worn. The are pressed into the
suspension upright so I am leaning towards machining new ones out of
better steel. Bill
(24667) |
| The scan would be
appreciated. I'm on dial up, so keep the file size under 200. Mike
(24669) |
| The surface has no
seal, it is only for bearing, and I think the splined shaft takes
most of the force. The bearing is mainly for alignment. It is the
shaft between the crank and the transmission. The tractor is a
Massey Harris Challenger. We have a good one and a parts one. We
tried to find a replacement shaft, but the replacement has the same
wear. I saw the HSM article, and thought that since this is the end
of the shaft, the weld would be the best choice. I can break out the
tool post grinder if necessary. (Gotta figure out how the thing
works) Mike (24670) |
| What is on the
other end of the shaft what does it go to and how spline on on end
other end? Thomas (24673) |
| Mike, I always
worry about the tone of what I write. Please don't take this as
arguing or as criticism of your approach. Personally, I hate to use
heat any where near precision parts- I am not very good with a
welder. Is this a spigot-type bushing? I am thinking along the lines
of the pilot bearing in a manual shift crankshaft. If so, A quick
turn down and using a smaller ID bushing may get you home with the
least time and lowest chance of problems. If you can't find an
oilite bush the right size, any bearing house should have raw stock.
For thick bushes, one can machine out the old one to accept a more
standard size as a sleeve. If the surface supports a rolling segment
bearing inner race (ball, roller, needle, taper, etc.) and the race
is axially retained (between a shoulder and a nut, for instance)
then I've had tremendous success with metal-filled epoxy. It is ugly
but tough and effective. If there is a lot of slop, indicate the
shaft before tightening the retainer. On the other hand, since you
don't need a perfect surface and the area isn't high stress, welding
sounds like a perfectly suitable solution. A lot comes down to what
makes you comfortable. Bill (24674) |
| I used to work for
the Air Force and they used something they called plasma spray to
build up and grind back to specs. It was very tough and needed a
green wheel to grind. That was back in the late 60s. Marshall (24676) |
| I have a torch
spray weld set up for building up parts. One of the powders is Tung
Carbide. There is also bronze, cast iron, and 8 more i can't think
of. Bob (24677) |
| Do a web search for
the Flame Spray Coating Company, Inc. or call them at (800)336-8602.
They have an extensive line of plasma sprayed coatings. Used to have
the local machine shop build up worn out crank journals on Triumph
and other motorcycle cranks about an eon ago (late 60's as Mr Smith
remembered. We must been in the USAF about the same time.)(24678) |
| You can build up a
shaft with TIG and it is more commonly available. Most welding shops
can do that without a problem. From prior posts I thought that the
shaft was broken. For a wear part that fits into a bushing the
standard TIG filler rod would be fine. You will, however, have to
use the tool post grinder to machine it to the finished size. I have
been involved in plasma and flame spraying in United Technologies, GE
and digital. It works great but not every shop has the equipment.
Also proper preheating is critical for it to last. Yes, the computer
company had used flame spraying for a selective coating of monel on
a special chassis and it didn't meet spec. JP (24681) |
| You can also use a
Mig welder if its just mild steel. I have fixed many of boo boo's
when I was in the shop and nobody knew any different. Bob
(24683) |
| Mike, I do a lot of
welding on steel construction and use Lincoln Jetweld LH-70. It is a
good all around rod with a 70 KSI strength. Easy to weld with in any
position. There is a great chart at
www.mylincolnelectric.com under the
consumables tab which describes the different rods available and
their specs. description and general uses. All rods listed as "low
hydrogen" should be kept in a rod oven after opening the package.
but I have welded with "old rods" and have had no problems. As far
as welding on a shaft for build-up, it would be wise to preheat the
shaft to about 400 to 500 degrees before welding. then I would not
weld in lines along the length of the shaft but would set up the
shaft to be able to rotate it as you weld and lay the bead in a
spiral around the shaft and work my way along the area to be
built-up. as weld deposit cools it can shrink and "pull" with
considerable force and welding along the length of the shaft would
probably bend it unless it is a really large shaft or you lay beads
on one side then the other before the first cooled too much. I also
have a flame spray machine which is made for exactly that use. The
problem with it is I got it at a "bargain price" and have never had
to use it. I don't think you would offer your part for a "guinea pig"
I hope this info is of use to you and others even though it has
nothing to do with my lathe. Jeff
(24686) |
| I understand the
spiral welding method, but with stick welding you will have slag
inclusion if you weld along side or into the previous weld without
removing the slag. A Mig welder would work ok for this method but I
think stick welding would cause some problems. (24687) |
| Mike, You are
correct in that all of the slag will need to be removed as each
"ring" is deposited. I just went briefly into the procedure figuring
you have at least basic knowledge of for welding. Feel free to email
me "offline" if you have further questions. Jeff (24690) |
| Get on the web and
look up weld repair. I am a metallurgist and have a lot of that
info on my bookshelf in the office. By the way, the 7018 is
guaranteed to have a min yield of 70 ksi, and the 6018 is min 60 ksi.
So the 6018 is a bit more ductile. But the she is right on with the
slag. 7018 is a lot smoother running than 6018. Make sure you do a
good job removing all slag between passes, do a good visual
inspection and grind out all imperfections and fair your starts and
stops in smoothly. You'll do ok with the 7018. Only problem is that
the properties of the material in the heat-affected-zone are now not
what they used to be. If case-hardened, all that hardness goes
away. (24692) |
| You will have the
same problem with MIG and CO2 on steel and the thin slag is a bitch
to remove. Look closely at the edge of the weld to see it. Use a
steel pick or a piece of a hacksaw blade to remove it. With stick
the slag will float somewhat but that is not guaranteed. Using Argon
shield gas is one reliable multipass method, gas welding is the
other. JP (24694) |
| If it is just a
worn spot, I might just build up the area and turn it down. A broken
piece may be chucked in the lathe. Using it as a welding jig and
using DTI to check alignment. Small tacks all around sounds like a
plan. Providing the weld and turn goes as planned, it should work. Ron
(24707) |
| You have an mind.
But I like it. Thomas (24709) |
| Tom, the shaft is a coupling shaft for the engine and trans.
It bears no weight, only a torque load. It is a short shaft. 2' with
a splined surface 10" on each end. Bearing in the middle, and on
each end to hold it true. One end bearing has worn into the shaft.
speeds are relatively low, and this is a slip fit for the bearing,
not a press fit, and no seal is required. The softer material should
hold up for many years. The 6013 weld can be cut with a hacksaw
after slow cooling, so I think machining it should be ok. I'll post
pics of the operation. I'll try a test piece prior to the real deal.
Mike
(24712) |
| I can't work out
how to send these to you direct, so look here
http://www.education.leeds.ac.uk/~edu-nwn/shaft/index.htm
There are two .tif files about 150k each. Nick
(24715) |
| As an alternative,
how about turning it down to a cylindrical surface, then shrinking a
sleeve onto it? Obviously this won't work for all situations, but if
applicable, it would avoid the warping, cracking, slag, loss of
temper, etc. associated with the heat of welding. (24724) |
| That is plan B if
the test piece doesn't go well. Mike (24726) |
| Another option,
depending on the shaft, is to contact your local bearing company and
find out what bearings are available with all of the correct
dimension except the i.d. (it would need to be under size) Then you
can turn the shaft to match the i.d. of the new bearing. Chris (24728) |
| That's where I
started, and got nowhere. The staff of the local bearing house did
not seem too sharp. I did see a table in my Machinery's Handbook of
standard sizes. I need to look at it a bit more closely. Mike (24730) |
| Check online at
www.mcmaster.com they have some bearings. Also
www.grainger.com
Bob (24731) |
| INA bearings are
sold here in the US http://medias.uk.ina.com/ medias also search for
Timken.
(24736) |
| Depending on the
wear depth. You can have it hard chrome plated and then bring it
back to correct size. Dick (24739) |
| That's the way the
government does repair on many aircraft parts. I think it is the
best way to go for long term wear. (24742) |
| In the old days at the job shop,
we did a lot of such repairs. MIG welder on the lathe. welded with
the part in the machine. we had a wooden block with a hole for the
end of the torch and just rotated things by hand. if you are worried
about splatter, you can either buy special anti-splatter spray or
use duct tape. Since it will be in a roller bearing, hardness should
not be an issue, and since the repair is so simple, it should not be
a problem if you had to re-do it in some 5 years. Since something
was obviously wrong for it to wear in the first place, just make sure
it is protected from here on out. If the shaft does slide in the
bearing like some PTO's, then the chrome and grind is a great idea.
But, it is a simple matter to test some raw stock for practice. Not
only that, but when you need that 1-1/8 shaft and only have 1" in
the shop, it does offer that advantage. Dave (24746) |
| The only thing that
you must always do when welding on a shaft that is set up in the
lathe is ground the work, not the lathe, or you may ruin the spindle
bearings. Nick (24747) |
| If you repair the
shaft in the lathe make sure the ground clamp is on the shaft and
close to the welded area. If you ground the lathe you may have
several things to repair after the current runs thru the bearings.
tmfromkm (24757) |
| Dave, Have you ever
parted a tractors engine from its transmission? Ed (24766) |
| Real strong reason
for a permanent fix!!! (24772) |
| On the Massey
Harris and Oliver tractors the motor will lift out easily, there is
no parting of the tractor. There is a frame under the motor, unlike
Case and John Deere. Take a look at EBay 3871326864. Not knowing
which shaft he is dealing with I can only guess that he would not
want to pull it out of there in a few years. Digging into the bowels
of old tractors is a strong enough reason for a permanent fix.
JP (24777) |
| Used to make plates
so we could use Ford engines and sell the Caterpillar ones to the
re-build shop. yeah, the torque is not something to be trifled
with. But, I thought this project was more for a PTO or external
thing, shafts that are internal to the cases are usually hardened
and in an oil bath. Wear is not common. In this case, I would opt
for the chrome plating and grinding. Dave (24783) |
