| SB Restoration Site (Jan
31, 2001) |
13" SB Restoration Pix
(May 24, 2003) |
| Model C Restoration (Mar
25, 2001) |
Restoration (Jun 12,
2003) |
| Anyone restore an SB Heavy 10?
(Apr 1, 2001) |
SB restoration pictures
(Jul 21, 2003) |
| Re-building (Jun 11,
2001) |
Reconditioning a 9" SB
hor. drive countershaft (Mar 9, 2004) |
| Rebuilding a Model A (Jun
9, 2002) |
Rebuilding 9C (Dec 6,
2004) |
| Rebuilding SB Heavy 10
(Dec 2, 2002) |
10" tool room lathe bed
restoration (Jan 9, 2005) |
| Rebuild page on 9" SB Hercus
clone (Jan 24, 2003) |
Rebuild help (Feb 28,
2005) |
| Rebuilding Assistance Needed
(Apr 7, 2003) |
|
| |
| SB Restoration Site |
| I'm shifting gears
from woodworking to metalworking and have documented the restoration
of my 1941 SB at http://www.salisbury.net/west/home.htm I hope that
that you all will find this site informative. Mike (121) |
| Mike, Beautiful site, BEAUTIFUL SB!
Just like you, I've poured over the frankenlathe site and others
gathering as much info on DIY restoration as I could. When I get a
chance, I'll be reviewing your site at a slower pace as I think
about what next to do to my 1941 9" SB. I too, have been if not
shifting from, augmenting my woodworking with metal working. Nice to
have the capability for both. Corian -- now that smacks of a
woodworker. I thought I saw a precision level in one of the
pictures. Have you set up the lathe yet, and how does it perform,
precision-wise? How's the 1/4 HP motor do? Paul R.
(122) |
| Paul. set up
the lathe yet, and how does it perform, precision-wise? How's the
1/4 HP motor do? Yes, that's an 8" Starrett level I used to get the
ways leveled-off, in fact, I think you can also see the test bar I
started making in the same photo. The lathe was off .003 over 6",
and after some trial and error tweaking, I was able to get it down
to .001-.0015". (well within my tolerance level) (and ability) You
know as well as I do, woodworking only uses fractions, and I don't
ever remember using them down to 64ths. Now I have to deal with
thousandths? Sheesh! The motor is surprisingly strong for it's
rating. In fact, its much larger and heavier than a newer 1/2 hp
motor I have. I would swear that it's a modern day 1/2hp equivalent.
Sometimes I make too aggressive of a cut, and the belt tends to slip,
but I like that safety factor. At least I know I won't be burning
the motor up. Maybe it's why it is still going strong after all
these years. I'm glad I found this group, Mike (123) |
| I'm curious about belt slip. With my
current setup, with a polyurethane belt, I can still grab the chuck
or the largest spindle step and cause the belt to slip. When is too
much slip a bad thing? How soon does your belt start slipping? I
also wonder if my belt and pulleys are starting to get slippery from
oil/grease. Paul R. (126) |
| Let's just say that
when I accidentally take too deep of a cut, the tool bit stops the
work, chuck and all, and the leather belt slips until I turn the
motor off and regroup. I have never noticed (heard or felt since I
can't see the belt) it slipping when making normal cuts or
procedures. Mike (128) |
| I think
that belt slippage is built in short coming of the SB Lathe. I have
busted many a carbide tool bit when the work comes to a stop due to
belt slippage. I do not know the answer to this, but regular
cleaning of the belt with Acetone will help. I have ordered a new
4-ply power transmission belt for mine. I should have it this week.
One of the features of this belt is its low stretch. You can
increase the tension a bit more without a problem. You can also use
belt dressing on the type of belt. One thing we should keep in mind
is the fact that this little lathe was never designed for modern
carbide tools and inserts. We tend to get a bit aggressive with this
tool bits. As the normal cutting speed of carbide is about 4x faster
than HHS. Momentum from the speed and the superior cutting
properties of carbide will give us the feeling we can take bigger
cuts, but the bottom line is, the poor little gear teeth may not
hold out. Jim (129) |
|
Model C Restoration |
|
I'm trying to bring a 9x36 model C that's sitting in the corner of my shop back to life. Its not mine
(the shop is a metal working collective), and the owner is in
Europe, so I'm trying to keep expenses to a minimum. I had a web
page that described how to remove the spindle, but I can't find it
now. Also, where do all these images come from (like the ones on the
web site), are these from the manual that I can order from
Southbend? Also, do all 9 inchers have thrust bearings? If they do,
it looks like mine was replaced by some flat washers. Also the
backgears don't quite line up with the bullgear on the spindle, is
this normal, or a result of the bearing/washer replacement.
Chris (386) |
|
As far as I know, they all had the thrust
bearing. That could be the alignment problem. There's an HTML
version of the manual at:
http://people.ne.mediaone.net/wasser/SBLathe/index.html
To remove the spindle: 1) Remove gear guards 2) Remove reverse
bracket assembly 3) Loosen binding screw in take-up nut at the
gear-end of the spindle, then remove nut and washer 4) Drive out
spindle from gear-end with a hammer using a wooden block to keep
from damaging the spindle. Once you get it started, the spindle
should pull out from the nose-end. Don't let the thrust bearing,
cone-pulley or bull-gear fall out! Paul R. (389) |
| Anyone restore
an SB Heavy 10? |
| Curious to know if
anyone has torn down and restored a South Bend Heavy 10 lathe and
perhaps documented it, pictures/web page etc. I have one mounted on
the steel cabinet, 1958 model told to me by South Bend. Has a
threaded spindle but used to have a Camlock according to SB. I'd
love to find an L00 spindle as that is what I have on my LeBlond but
not critical. Marty
http://members.home.net/escarcega/ (451) |
| Marty, we've
talked before via e-mail, but the best Heavy 10" restoration site
I've found so far is:
http://www.redshift.com/~gordis/Heavy10/ This
lathe is my inspiration. My Heavy 10 is in real good shape, but
needs a good cleaning and a coat of industrial paint. Because of the
fine site listed above I've bitten the bullet and decided to go for
it right away. This is taking time away from my aircraft
restoration, but I can't help myself. Mel BTW, here are
two more 9" lathe restoration sites that are real good:
http://web.dimebank.com/FrankenLathe.html
http://www.salisbury.net/west/home.htm (453) |
| I am in the
middle of restoring a 1950 10L right now. I have taken some pictures
but wish I had taken more as some of the things I found were quite
something. Unfortunately the pictures I did take are still in the
camera. Hopefully I will be able to post some in a week or so. It
really disappoints me to see how badly some people can treat a fine
piece of machinery. When you get one of these jewels torn apart and
see how well South Bend made them you begin to understand how a 50
year old machine tool can last so long. This is one well made lathe.
It is too bad that previous owners used, neglected and even abused
it in so many ways. I don't know much about the history of this lathe
but the person I got it from said that it came from a school. South
Bend told me it originally was shipped to a company in Wisconsin. It
had apparently had been in storage for a long time prior to being
acquired by the person I got it from. He said that he got it as a
part of a larger purchase and that he had not actually used it. I
believe this was a true statement as all of the parts were coated
with oil so old that it looked almost like tar. The oil in the
spindle was thick but not old. When asked he said it was way oil.
Same as what he used on his 15 ft long Monarch. Oh well. Anyway I
got it and now I am trying to restore it. In general it was in good
condition. Extremely dirty and many layers of paint slopped on.
Unfortunately I have found some serious (expensive) problems that I
will have to correct before I can put it to good use. Two gears have
a tooth missing. One is on the back gear, one is on the clutch
assembly. The biggest problem is that the sleeve bearings have been
bent by someone who apparently removed the bearing caps without
removing the expander screws. South Bend wants $617 each for them.
OUCH! I will look around the used equipment dealers and see what I
can find. Anyway this is what you often encounter when restoring old
things. I will get some pictures posted as soon as I get them
developed and will keep you posted on the progress. Karl (458) |
| Re-building |
| There is a firm that makes something called
MOGLICE. This stuff transcends anything you ever used for fill and
repair or duplicate. There are products made by this firm that will
re-build low spots, fill holes, resurface ANY flat bearing from a
jewelers lathe to a Pratt Whitney 96" VTL main bearing. The catalog
is full of good advice w/pictures and prices. Now all I have to do
is remember the name of the damn firm!! Your dialog on building up
gears made me think of the stuff they sell that actually can make a
new gear. cheers, Ron (855) |
| Try: Devitt Machinery Co. 4009-G Market Street Aston, Pa
19014 (800) 749-3135 www.moglice.com Anthony (863) |
| Curious if anyone
has any experience actually using this stuff to replace broken gear
teeth. I visited the website and it appears to be a machine surface
and bearing coating rather than as to gear teeth replacement. How
about something more readily available such as J B Weld that is sold
in auto parts stores? (867) |
| This is a post from
the atlas_craftsman group that I belong to I read it and it seems
like a good idea. It is not my post but from Jeff Hayes. The other
day I was buying an old South Bend 3-jaw chuck from a
gentleman-machinist at a flea market, and we got to talking,
knowledgeable old-timer to eager new kid (me), and when I told him I
had an Atlas lathe, he immediately asked me if I knew how to repair
broken gear teeth? I said he was knowledgeable didn't I? I said I
did not, and he proceeded to tell me how it's done. It seems he had
to perform this type of repair on a lathe some years ago, that used
some kind of pot-metal change gears. He proceeded to drill three
tiny holes where the gear tooth had been, and inserted three pieces
of steel wire- actually small finishing brads- which he then cut off
to the correct height sticking out of the gear for a tooth. He then
applied JB Weld to the wires to provide material to build up the
tooth. As the JB Weld began to cure, he rolled the gear "tooth"
through the meshing teeth on an adjacent gear, to provide the
correct shape. As far as he knows, the gear is still in use. On
another occasion, he had to perform a similar repair on a sawmill
drive gear. The mill had ordered a replacement gear that would not
arrive for 2 days, and the mill was looking at seriously expensive
downtime. This time, the size of the gear teeth meant using 3 spikes
to provide the "spine" of the new tooth, but the same JB Weld was
used the same way. When the new gear arrived, the mill owner decided
not to replace the repaired gear- to avoid the downtime required, so
the gear was used for the next 5 months until the mill shut down for
the winter. The repaired gear is now the spare, in storage for
future use if needed. He said make absolutely sure the area to be
repaired is ***CLEAN*** for this repair to work. It sounds like this
should work on zamac as well. Jeff (868) |
| I've been in touch with
the factory--for a 9-inch, $1050 to rescrape the bedways and saddle
bearing surfaces, 8-12 weeks turnaround, I pay shipping both ways.
(2548) |
| And I bet that is
for a 3 foot bed and not anything longer. I guess it is a good thing
I don't want to make any parts for Nasa. Gerald (2552) |
| I had just sent my
bed in to be reground. The factory did an excellent job. UPS also
did an excellent job in destroying it in shipping, now I am waiting
for the factory to reopen after the Christmas break so I can send it
back to have it redone. Do not ship with UPS, they are paying the
$1100 to have it redone, but they must learn that they cannot throw
a 100lb box, no matter how strong it is. The price to regrind the
bed is the same regardless of length. You also have to send in the
saddle to be scraped so it will match the leadscrew. Alex (2553) |
| I have a lathe
where the bed was " damaged in shipping " so far they are trying to
get off with that. I am trying to get them to give me the bed no
matter what the damage and I am getting the runaround. They don't
seem to understand that one doesn't just go out and buy a new Mikron
(a Swiss make that now makes CNC machines only) lathe bed. I now
have a head stock and a nice turret but no bed. Yasmiin (2555) |
| Alex, Did they tell
you how much they had to grind off your bed to true it up? Reason I
ask, we grind a lot of milling and centerless grinder tables for a
local rebuilder. I just got a 9" SB that has a slight drop :)
underneath and to the right of the chuck. The guy I got it off of
must have made a lot of short parts. I don't have a problem grinding
it, but I'm worried about the carriage. How much can you grind off
safely. The rebuilder wants 500.00 to scrape the bed once I grind
it. I plan on indicating the bed to find out, just thought you might
know. Mike (2557) |
| It
would be interesting to see what kind of fee the people that make
Moglice charge for their services. Seeing as they take it off as
well as put it back on. The cost of scraping makes me wonder if we
are in the wrong business. Think I'll go back to my book on
machine-tool re-building and finish making my set of scrapers. When
my dad would tour some of the great shops of Philly, (Baldwin, NY
Ship etc.) it was common-place to see men scraping breech-blocks on
large guns. The critical surfaces had to achieve a gas-tight fit.
Very impressive for one man and one tool! Now I have a question for
the gifted horde. I find that after using back-gear on my lathe for
a while, the pulley and the bull-gear tend to get hot and seize a
bit. What causes this and how do I fix it?? AND TODAY'S CHEAP-SHOT:
Ever loose a loose eccentric collar and have to make one? I did.
During the construction of Tims 30" bench-grinder one of the locking
collars for the bearings turns up gone. I had to make another. So I
took a piece of round stock and bored the 3/4 hole for the shaft
first. Then took the other collar and indicated the ID in my 4-jaw
chuck. Then just bored it to fit. Works great! Ron (2558) |
| Ron: Sounds
like there's no Teflon grease inside the cone pulley or the quill
assembly. I'd say tear it down and clean and inspect first, then
reassemble with Teflon grease, and then inject some more.
Paul R. (2562) |
| I find that after using back-gear on my lathe for a while,
the pulley and the bull-gear tend to get hot and seize a bit. What
causes this and how do I fix it?? Don't know about a SB, but on an
Atlas there is a lube point on the drive pulley. It looks like a set
screw in the bottom of one of the V's of the pulley, but it leads to
a hole for oil that lubes the spindle/ drive pulley joint. Of course
when you are in direct drive the pulley and spindle move as one
piece, but in back gear the pulley and spindle rotate at different
speeds so that point needs oil. John (2563) |
| Ron, As others have pointed out, it is most
likely a lack of lubrication in the stepped cone pulley. There is a
slotted set screw (actually a plug screw) in the middle step of the
cone pulley that you remove to add lubricant. It will be labeled
"Oil" or "Grease" over the screw. You know what to do from this
point... The other possibility that the others haven't mentioned is
that overheating can be caused by the flat belt being tensioned too
tight. Proper tension is 1" deflection in the middle of the belt
with hand pressure when the belt is under tension. On the underdrive
units, where it is hard to check the belt in the middle, the
deflection should be 1/2" near the cone pulley. Many times belts are
over tensioned to compensate for the slipping of a dirty, oily belt.
If this your case, clean your belt with Naphtha and tension it
properly. If you still have slipping problems after cleaning,
replace the belt. Webb (2564) |
| Yasmiin: You will
find that they are only liable for $0.10 per pound for used
machinery. They wrecked my lathe and now I have gotten a new used
gear box with lead screw and a new saddle. I have yet to put them
together. Any used machinery is fair game for them to wreck and they
will only give you scrap value for it. I wonder if they have to pay
a higher price per pound if they wreck stainless steel machinery? Jim (2568) |
| I am just
trying to get them to give me the " busted " lathe bed. I am betting
that they broke a leg off it. Anyway I want to try and repair it but
getting the " damaged it transit " item out of them seems to be an
unending battle. Yasmiin (2569) |
| Rebuilding a
Model A |
| On the subject of
regrinding ways, my Model A appears shot. The ways have a 0.010"
ridge on the top front. I can see the cross slide fishtail when I
bore. Boring holes produces tapered holes that get smaller as the
hole gets deeper. The head stock makes loud clicking noises when a
live center is used. Worse, I can't part aluminum with my parting
blade (or any blade for that matter). When I do try to cut off
aluminum, the work chatters and howls. The best description of the
sound is like a drunken elephant giving birth to whale. It doesn't
matter what speed I run, the chattering is always there. I can see
the work vibrate. I have a Bison 6" chuck. Any ideas? I am thinking
that the lathe has taken a turn for the worst and simply needs a
rebuilding, but before I either spend a few thousand $$$$ or chuck
it and buy a new one, I wanted to get some opinions on what I might
try to do. The lathe is used for very light production of aluminum.
Marv (4516) |
| Have you check the spindle bearings? You may
have too much play (clearance). Is the clicking noise when in back
gear or in direct drive? If it is in direct drive, your stepped cone
pulley may have too much play on the spindle. When this occurs, the
pin that locks the bullgear to the stepped cone pulley (for direct
drive) "clicks" from the shifting of the pulley. SBL headstocks have
shims under the bearing caps that allow one to adjust the bearing
clearance. Have you checked and/or adjusted the gib on the rear of
the saddle? That may help to prevent the "fish tailing." Speaking of
gibs, are the gibs on the cross slide and compound adjusted
correctly? any "play" will contribute to "chatter" when parting. Of
course, I am assuming that the parting tool blade is sharp and
clearance angles are properly ground. And the tool is set up on
center and perpendicular to the axis of rotation of the spindle. As
to rebuilding, you may be better off getting another lathe in better
condition. It all depends on how much rebuilding your lathe
requires.
Webb (4517) |
| I would assume
after 47 years everything needs rebuilding. The alternative that I
see is buying a new lathe. Since I am not impressed with Asian made
lathes, that means looking at North America or Europe. Either one is
about $10,000 tooled up. So far I have $2,500 wrapped up in a used
SB and a new Asian lathe. I guess I got an education about lathes
out of that, but I won't throw any more money out the window on
junk. If fixing this lathe is not practical, I probably will be
forced to buy a new one. I refuse to buy another used one. After
all, the reason these lathes are up for sale is because they have
exceeded their useful life in the shop. Marv (4522) |
| Marv, I realize
everyone has their own needs and requirements, and for you, maybe an
new industrial quality lathe is the answer, but for many of the
folks on this list, a well used high quality American made lathe
suits our needs just fine. One other thing we shouldn't forget, is
that, while the quality of a machine tool can have a significant
influence on the quality of work produced on it, so can the
operator. Mario (4523) |
| If fixing this
lathe is not practical, I probably will be forced to buy a new one.
I refuse to buy another used one. After all, the reason these lathes
are up for sale is because they have exceeded their useful life in
the shop. While that may be true for some of the larger industrial
lathes, it is not true of the smaller ones. I have purchased two of
my SB 9's from estate sales where the previous owner had passed
away. The other SB 9 I bought came from my high school metals shop.
I have kept in touch with the instructor for the past 17 years and
he figured he would give me first crack at it. I made the school an
offer that I thought was fair and I got it. It is the very first
lathe I ever used. The only reason they were even considering
getting rid of it was for tax reasons. Yes it has seen some abuse
but it was not used in a production environment. I guess you will
just have to plunk down the cash for a new SB or what ever other
brand of lathe you decide to buy. Gerald (4524) |
| You can get an old
lathe professionally rebuilt. In the last 6 months or so Meridian
Machinery had a heavy 10 completely rebuilt for sale at about
$6,000. It included taper attachment and a chuck, but no tooling. I
recently saw a 9 inch rebuilt at a charge of about $6,000. By
rebuilt, I mean bed ground, carriage, compound, headstock, tailstock
and taper attachment all ground, lined with Turcite and hand
scraped to perfection, new bearings, entire machine stripped and
repainted, etc. A professionally rebuilt lathe of that sort is
arguably better than it was when new. The attention to detail and
the precision of fit and alignment in a good rebuild shop is better
than was afforded on the original factory production line. I think
that's what I'd do if I had a $5-10K lathe budget. (4525) |
| Well, as an
operator, I can tell you I significantly influence the quality of
the work. That's why I need the best machine I can afford to offset
my negative effects. Marv (4526) |
| That sounds good to
me. I like the 9A, but it badly needs help. If I can find a local
place to do that for this one it would seem agreeable. For that same
$5,000, I don't know of anything new that I could get that competes.
Marv (4527) |
| Where are you
located? You might call Dave Ficken at Meridian and ask him about
the place he used to rebuild that heavy 10. It's called something
like 'New Jersey Machine Tool'. Finding someone real "local" could
be a challenge, depending where you are. Although I think a rebuild
is a viable strategy, I seriously doubt it's hassle-free, meaning
that you'd really need/want to spend some time doing homework, like
visiting shops, seeing samples of their work, talking to references,
etc. Maybe even getting a contract that has spces on it? Although
I've talked with and visited several rebuilders, I have very little
idea what the business is really like. I actually took a machine to
a supposedly first-rate rebuilder for a look-over and estimate, and
2 months and a half-dozen conversations later, I still haven't got a
firm estimate. They have a very slow pace. I've heard this is not
uncommon. (4533) |
| Yes, I believe
that can be a problem. I need to do a full evaluation of the lathe
and I think it needs everything. Even the tailstock has bad play
in the shaft. It wiggles all over the place when I try to drill. It
is almost impossible to cinch down the shaft with the screw. I think
the head stock bearings are shot. When I use a live center and apply
force to the work laterally, I get clicking sounds out of the head
stock. The ways have a 0.010" ridge on the top. The cross slide
visibly fish tails under load. The cross slide doesn't appear to
have play, but it is hard to tell with all of the other problems. It
is a bit stiff to articulate. I would think that since everything
else is shot there is no reason to believe that the cross slide
should fare any better. I would think that there some aspects to
rebuilding that I can do, but things like regrinding the ways are
out of my reach, big time. I can see it now. I'll do an ad for Dremel regrinding my own ways with a 0.250" stone spinning at 10,000
rpm. (4537) |
| Marv, It sounds
like your lathe is pretty beat up. Maybe you shouldn't rule out just
buying a great condition used lathe. They don't come up too often,
but they do show up several times a year on Ebay (and presumably
elsewhere). I also didn't want a second-rate lathe or a first-rate
rebuild project, and I watched Ebay and newspapers for a while. I
found a 10K on Ebay that is essentially new. Zero wear on the bed,
everything is tight as the day it left the factory. It wasn't cheap
and it wasn't tooled, but I've decked it out with first-rate tooling
like Buck chucks, etc. and in the end, I've got a fabulous lathe for
under $5,000. Admittedly a generous budget by many standards, but
not too outrageous either for something that will last my lifetime
(I think I've got ~30 years left). I took a similar route with a
mill, waited 6 months or so, but found something that had been
sitting in a corner for 25 years. The search was discouraging for a
while, but then one day, voila: a lathe. A month later: a mill. Then
a grinder, then... you get the idea. My faith was restored that good
things come with a little patience and networking, and especially if
when the time comes, you're prepared budget-wise. None of my
equipment were bargains in the conventional sense, but then again,
they require no work. As you're seeing, that can have real value. I
continue to watch Ebay occasionally, and in the last 2-3 months
there was a beautiful, nearly-new, well tooled Clausing 6500 from a
retired machinist that went for about $4,000. There was a virtually
new SBL 9A that went for about 3,500 a month or two ago. (I think I
have pictures and the actual prices of these I could send you if
you're interested to see the kind of thing I'm talking about. Email
me offline) There are still machines out there in garages and
basements that would-be hobbyists bought and never used, and they
gradually come to see the light again. Mark (4545) |
| I have work
that needs to be done now. I am trying to work out ways to limp
along until the cash flow from the jobs offers me a chance to
upgrade. When I have the money I need to move, so waiting for the
right used lathe may not be a good option. Besides, I seem to have
bad luck with used stuff. :-/ I might consider rebuilding the lathe
in stages. Attack the items that are the worst and keep improving as
I go along. That really depends on what the total cost of a rebuild
is and what I can do myself. I am also thinking that better tooling
may help. Does anyone have a good idea what kind of money would be
required to rebuild an A? Are things like head stock bearings, tail
stocks, and cross slides something that I can repair with new parts
or does it require specialized tools (beyond a hammer)? Marv
(4546) |
| Rebuilding SB
Heavy 10 |
| I recently
purchased some parts to rebuild my Heavy 10. I'm in the process of
taking down the headstock and rebuilding it when I noticed something
odd in the bushing races. Realizing I'm new to this I thought I
would post my question here to see if anyone can spread some light
on this subject. In the races of the headstock, there appears to be
a leather strip in the keyway of each of the bushing races. What are
these things and where do I get new ones? Do these things act as
wicks to keep the part oiled? Terry (7685) |
| I have a 9"
so it's different than yours, but it sounds like this is a felt wick
for oiling. There seems to be lots of these oilers in various parts
of the SB lathes. John (7686) |
| John, these wicks, are they an item that you can still
buy or are they just made out of leather and just replace them with
some leather strips? Terry (7687) |
| They are made
of felt not leather. Mine were in pretty good shape so I never tried
to buy any. Depending upon the thickness you might find something
in a fabric store. Others have used felt out of shoes? (winter boots), felt hats etc. If you search the message archive
you'll find others who have obtained them or made them of something
more common. John
(7690) |
| When I did mine I
used scraps of felt that were leftover after I re-felted a
machinists chest. It was a thick heavy felt and worked very well.
Dave
(7693) |
| I'd recommend
buying some F-1 or F-3 felt strips from McMaster-Carr, or buying the
actual replacement felt from South Bend parts. It'll only cost a
dollar or two, and you'll be getting the real deal. Jeff (7712) |
| Rebuild page on
9" SB Hercus clone |
| I may be behind as
usual, but maybe someone other than me has not seen this excellent
site with great pics on the rebuild of an Australian Hercus clone.
http://www.steammachine.com/hercus/ Okey (8896) |
| Rebuilding
Assistance Needed |
| I'm in the process
of rebuilding a SB Heavy 10". I've completely taken the lathe apart,
cleaned each piece, primered and painted. Now I'm working on the
headstock and when I put the spindle back in it's very "tight" or
difficult to turn and I haven't even torqued the bearing bolts down.
What I'm looking for is there any information out there on what kind
of clearances are needed for the spindle bearings. I have a newer
style headstock where the spindle turns inside a bronze bushing as
apposed to the old style where the spindle ran directly on the
bearing races on the headstock. When I place the spindle in the
headstock I'm able to line up the oiler hole in the bronze bushing
with the oiler spring in the journal and the journal cap has a
bronze bar that fits in a slot on the spindle. Is there a book that
would have this information in it.
(10125) |
| Sounds
familiar. I went through this while back. You might not be outta the
woods yet. did you remove expanders before poppin caps? Did you
replace wicks ?what kinda oil you have in res. iso vg 100 something
s/b 1600?? did you retain the wicks with a pull out rod when you
dropped the spindle in? any way lift check should be around 1mil or
set up a little looser for run in as I did. keep at it but don't ruin
your spindle.....u should be able to turn free by hard before you lite her
up. Magnetic thermometers on the caps will give u a good idea of
what's going on. stirboy (10128) |
| I guess that the
group sees questions about spindle bearings often enough that
somebody should put a FAQ in the group's files section. But for
now, a few helpful hints. First, you really should use a an
indicator when assembling the spindle. A set of dial calipers and a
0-1" mic would be useful too. If you haven't read the instructions
that were riveted to the inside of the machines belt guard, read
them. It sounds like your parts are already very clean. Good. Dirt,
chips or paint on the shims or cap surfaces will really make things
harder than they need to be. All set? Good. 1) measure the
thicknesses of all four sets of shims. The headstock casting was
finish bored with (probably about) .015" shims in place. Shims are
added (or subtracted) from that basic thickness to adjust the
bearing clearance. You can measure your headstock bores at 12:00 and
3:00 without any shims installed to find the approximate basic shim
thicknesses to achieve round bores. Shim thicknesses should be the
same on each side of a bearing cap (within .0015 or less). Of
course, the important shim thickness is the one which provides the
correct bearing clearance. 2) Radial bearing clearances are checked
and adjusted with the (axial-play) take-up nut loose and the bearing
caps tight. The specs are .0007-.0010" deflection under a 75 lb
load. Set an indicator on the spindle end. Push down. Read
indicator. Pull up (about 75 lbs). Read indicator. The difference is
the clearance measurement. Add or subtract shims as needed. Repeat
for other bearing. Adjust take-up nut. With a ball-bearing take-up
bearing, tighten the nut finger tight or so. If you have the plain
thrust washer take-up bearing, tighten the take-up nut hand tight,
then back off the nut a bit. I have been happy enough with .001". If
you have the plain bearing take-up, you may want to look up a very
helpful contribution from 'gearloose' about adding a needle bearing
take-up to 9" machines. Obviously, a 10L will use a different size
needle bearing but the idea would be the same. 3) Unless you know
that the spindle was OK before you disassembled everything AND you
are using the same thrust bearing, you may also want to check for at
least a thou axial clearance between the flange at the front of the
spindle and the front of the headstock bearing housing. Most of this
info (and much more, of course) is available in the factory service
manual, available from a number of sources. I don't want to plug
anyone in particular. (I got a printable pdf from
www.machinemanuals.net ). (10130) |
| I forgot to mention
that the bearing expander should be tight when measuring bearing
clearance. And, of course, this discussion would not be complete
without us all chanting in unison to "always remove the expander
screws before loosening or removing the bearing caps". I will
include a few more details because you never know what you're gonna
find.... The bearing shells are .125" thick (at least for a 13T).
The oiler tubes stick up .100" from the bottom of the headstock
bores. The wicks are made of two grades of felt. The soft felt below
to wick up the oil. The dense felt at the top, to contact the
spindle. The top of the wick sticks up a bit (1/8" or less) past the
top of the oiler spring. (10132) |
| 13" SB
Restoration Pix |
| It took some new
software, but I've finally put all my restoration pictures in one
place on the web. Some of you may have seen part of this collection
of photos, but for the new folks I'll do a little 'splainin' (the
pictures don't have any captions) In June of 2002 I rented a truck
and drove from Cincinnati to Dayton to pick up my 1953 13" South
Bend lathe. Over the next 5 months I spent between 2 and 4 hours
each night working on the lathe. When all was said and done, I had
taken every single piece apart then stripped it, cleaned it, primed
it and painted it. I used Plasti-Kote Gray Primer and Machinery Dark
Gray spray paint for most of the parts, using about 2 coats of
primer and 2-3 coats of paint. For the bed, motor housing, legs and
compound I used a custom-tinted Sherwin-Williams 2-part Epoxy paint.
Though a real pain to prepare and clean up, this is amazing stuff.
Hard as nails, and a real nice finish. There are a few parts (like
the gear box) that I'd like to repaint with the epoxy. The pictures
in the website are, for the most part, in chronological order, so
you should be able to track my progress. You might also notice that
about 2/3 of the way through my project the bed, motor housing, and
a few other parts are magically stripped down to bare metal. After
fighting with gallons of paint stripper and an ever- increasing loss
of brain cells, I made the command decision to bring these parts to
a local metal-stripping house called "American Metal Cleaning". They
dipped my parts in a huge tank of toxic chemicals and they came out
looking like fresh castings. The best $200 I ever spent. Enough
blabbing, take a look at the pix. I'll be happy to answer any
questions, but unless you think your question would be beneficial to
the group, please e-mail me directly. My address is "jswayze at one
dot net" http://www.swayzephoto.com/lathe/index.html Jeff
(11451) |
| Very nice and you
have my complements on a great job - I did a similar labor of love
on a heavy 10 (bed, saddle tailstock base regrind and all). What
capped it off was my son produced and hooked up the gear to run its
3phase motor off our single phase - the pot to vary the motor speed
fitted very neatly in the forward/reverse switch box (I nearly gave
him a kiss for doing that, but he's too big and ugly and probably
would have inflicted serious damage on myself.
Dave (11454) |
| Jeff: My
complements on an exemplary job!! I had a 13"x5' SB a number of
years ago and did much the same job. I'm sure that you realize you
have been rewarded with a first class machine, which I believe is
easily equal to a 10L (with 25% more capacity) Pete (11464) |
| Restoration
|
| I am
getting ready to start a tear down restoration/cleanup of my 9A. It
has basically sat idle for the past 35 years or so. It is caked and gunked up with grease, oil, and dirt. All of the oil galley's and
felts are no doubt gummed up also. My first question is if I am
careful in removal of the head stock, noting if and how any shims
are placed will I have a problem with the position and accuracy of
the reinstallation by just putting everything back the way it came
off? Would the same thing hold true of the QC gear box. Fred
(11927) |
| South Bend
Lathes, when they left the factory, don't have any shims between the
headstock and the bed. They were machined and hand scraped so that
the headstock was aligned with the ways when bolted down. If you
find shims under your headstock, it means something is wrong. Either
the headstock casting is warped or the bed has a warp or wind. The
only shims used were under the spindle bearing caps in order to
adjust the bearings as they wear. You should not have any alignment
problems with removing for cleaning and painting and then replacing
the headstock. Just be careful of the mating surfaces and take care
not to damage them. This is one of the things that distinguishes a
quality made lathe from some of the off shore stuff. Webb (11928) |
| Webb. I knew
there should not be any shims under the headstock but threw that in
the mix just in case I find any. My gut instinct, knowing the
history of this lathe, is that it is as came from the factory July
30, 1946. Fred (11933) |
| I'm in much the
same boat as Fred, beginning the tear down of what I am told is a
9a. There is SO MUCH crud and grime that I can only assume there is
a lathe under there. G Most of this grime is buffing compound. I'm
looking for advice on what to use, both to clean as well as to paint
strip. I'm thinking that since this machine will have to come
COMPLETELY apart, an hour with a paint brush will not be out of
order. I could have the machine sand blasted/glass beaded and then
powder coated by a local guy, but I'm worried about the use of ANY
abrasive that might get into places it shouldn't. I do have a parts
washer, 18" x 32" x 8", which should fit everything except the bed.
I'd prefer to get most of the buffing grunge removed before it hits
the solvent, though. Alan (11959) |
| SB restoration
pictures |
| Guess
the URL might help:
http://www.troutstar.com/lathe/ Iliana (12832) |
| I have a
model C that looks to be just like yours. Looks like yours is
missing the backgear assembly and the three covers. My lathe was
much less rusted and works great after refurbishment.
Allen (12839) |
| Reconditioning
a 9" SB hor. drive countershaft |
| I was taking apart
the horizontal drive unit for my 9" SB, getting ready to put on a
new motor with a VFD, and found out that the countershaft was badly
scored at the drive pulley end. After getting everything taken apart
and cleaned up, I found the reason was that there are no @#$%
bearings for the shaft to spin in -- it's steel on steel. The holes
in the casting have 1/8x1/8 keyways cut along the top, under the
oilers, with badly worn felt strips in the slots. (Hmm - that
explains why I was filling the oilers all the time.) Casting hole at
the drive pulley end is about 0.020 oversize (vs 7/8") and at the
other end it's a little less worn. Given what I can do reasonably
well and the tools I've got, my guess at the best repair is to
switch to a 3/4" shaft running in oilite bushings. MSC sells 3/4" ID
15/16" OD bearings that I can put on a mandrel and turn down to fit
the oversize 7/8" holes I've got. The motor pulley and 4-sheave
pulley will need something to convert them from 7/8" bore to 3/4",
and I was thinking of just using oilite bushings there, too, with
holes cut for the setscrews. I thought that'd be a lot easier than
trying to make sleeves out of steel tube, since that'd have a seam
on the inside that'd eat the teeth off my reamer. Anyone have any
better ideas? Tove (17652) |
| Are you telling me
that the oem configuration was steel-on-steel and that there wasn't
even a bushing ? or that there was a bushing that is now absent? If
its steel-on-steel, why not convert the oilers to grease fittings
and grease this point? Doc(17653) |
| Doc, that is a
very good idea. Grease will last longer than oil any day. Duane
(17654) |
| It was steel on
iron, not steel on steel. With a light oil film this makes an
extremely good high speed bearing. South Bend built many lathes with
headstock bearings of this design, and you might even have one. As
long as they are properly oiled, they will run forever. When new and
properly fitted, the grease would be to heavy to make a proper film
for the shaft to ride on at high speed, an the shaft might go metal
to metal. In your present worn out condition, the oil-lite bearings
would probably be a good choice. If I were you, I would check the
headstock for bearing type, and felts to keep them lubricated.
(17655) |
| Rebuilding 9C
|
| Somewhere I have
lost the cross slide gib. I assume that this made out of soft
material like aluminum. Can a shaped piece of aluminum, sanded
property, be used? Gene (22615) |
| Gene, I have
one you can have i will never use it. Bob (22616) |
| No, don't use the
aluminum. It will wear and bind. The original is a piece of hardened
steel. You should be able to find one easily, tho. Call Sobel
Machinery, (New Jersey) if you can't find one else where. I don't
have his number handy, but you can get it by entering the name in
"Google". (22617) |
| Gene I've always
used flat brass stock of the appropriate thickness. To form the gib
head, I make a 1/8"wide (approx) cut to half of the material
thickness to minimize stresses on the inside radius. The profile can
be cut on a jig saw and the edges filed. Don't see why you couldn't
do the same with aluminum. Jim Waugh (22619) |
| Ok, now I'm getting
curious. I've seen brass used as a gib replacement and I can see how
it wouldn't be a problem. To me, tho, it still seems like aluminum
would wear more quickly and bind. Any thoughts? Greg
(22625) |
| Aluminum by itself
will gall badly. It makes a miserable wear surface as a result, even
with grey iron which is pretty forgiving. Against stainless steel it
binds. The gibs should not be a soft material which wears fast. If
that were the case then the original ones would have been made of
it. JP (22628) |
| I wouldn't discount aluminum as an acceptable
bearing surface. Most lawn mower engines have aluminum pistons
riding in cast iron cylinders (older) or cast iron rings riding on
aluminum cylinders (newer), and most Japanese (and now American)
automobile engines have cast iron cams riding directly on the
aluminum of the cylinder head. For the amount of use most Home shop
lathes see, aluminum might last quite a while. Mario
(22629) |
| My INCA lathe has
aluminum gibs originally. Don't forget there are many alloys.
(22630) |
| There are many
aluminum alloys suitable for a wide range of work like aluminum
bronze which is a hard bearing material. The properties of these
alloys is completely different from the more common 6000 series
aluminum that we usually machine up for the gizmos we make. In your
lawn mower piston example the aluminum is not a rubbing surface the
cast iron rings are and your cam bearing example is not a 6000
series aluminum piece rubbing on steel. Aluminum and its alloys are
great materials for their respective applications but there are
limitations. The point I was trying to make before was that it is
the galling of the material that would make a common piece of
aluminum a poor choice for a gib. JP (22631) |
| My replacement MLA
cross slide has a gib from 1/8" CR steel made by Earl Bower who is
in this group. Bob (22632) |
| Right-O. There are also specialized treatments for the
aluminum wearing surfaces in engine blocks, I believe it involves a
controlled oxidation of the surface to produce a well-bonded layer
of aluminum oxide, hard, galling-resistant, etc, on the cylinder
walls. (Also known as sapphire, I seem to recall). Thus one cannot rebore such blocks; should they wear, they are scrapped. It took
Detroit a long time to get this to work. Owners of mid 1970's Chevy
IIs with 4 cyl Al blocks will recall how quickly they needed new
engines. Dave
(22633) |
| Gene, Have you
check with Leblond on the price of a new gib? Last time I check on
the price of the Cross slide gib, it was only $12 + change. I have
made these out of CRS (originals are some kind of soft steel) but at
$12 or so for a new one, it really isn't worth making it. I would
check with Rose at Parts Works too just to see if they might be
cheaper. Webb (22634) |
| Aluminum IS NOT (of itself) a good bearing surface. It IS way too
soft. Sure you can have a hard anodized surface, but this is NOT
practical for longevity (if at all!). Yes, BUT those aluminum
pistons have CI or Steel PISTON RINGS riding against the cylinder
walls. Don't forget, there is a certain amount of "looseness" or
give with the piston ring and cylinder wall. A gib does not have
this same "loosness" it is effectively "tight" or binding. This
constant rubbing WILL wear away aluminum. Once it starts to wear
it will only get worse - including binding. Brass CAN be used as a
gib and is much more capable than aluminum, however I would, like
others on this list, recommend a hardened steel gib. Definitely the
best solution. Such cams (AFAIK) are forged steel. CI would break
down over time under such stresses. Gee, I would be worried if my
engine was designed like that. I don't know for certain but I do
hope there are some "good" bearings in which the cam rotates. :D Do
it ONCE out of hardened steel and the home shop owner would NEVER
have to replace it again in his lifetime - in home shop use it may
last several generations. Peter (22635) |
| Actually that was on the Chevy Vega, and they used a very high
silicon content alloy. The engine was designed to have aluminum
pistons running directly in the aluminum cylinder block (no steel
liners) Now That's a lousy bearing, so they used a high silicon
alloy of aluminum and then etched away the aluminum at the cylinder
wall surface leaving only the much harder silicon grains to rub
against the aluminum piston. The reason so many engines were
scrapped instead of re-bored was that repair shops, dealers and
independents alike, didn't want to bother with the hassle, mess, and
risk of the intended re-bore process. I can understand their
reluctance. After boring the cylinders they would have to set up an
acid bath process to re-etch the cylinder walls. Mario (22636) |
| There is a MIL spec
fine grain anodizing process that I think you are referring to that
is used on wear parts that absolutely have to be made from aluminum.
Sapphire is the single crystal version of aluminum oxide. Sapphire
is some very tough material. I have been involved in making the
equipment to produce it. JP (22637) |
| I've got an email
in to Rose. Thanks to all for the great information. I made the
assumption that a soft metal would work best in that it would not
mar the dovetail. I did not consider galling. I also made the
assumption that the price of the item would be outrageous. ca. $12
new/$10 used is more than reasonable. Gene (22641) |
| Actually this
process goes back to 1936. Kollbenschmidt saturated aluminum pistons
with silicon. It is called hypereutectic here in the US. I think
Ferrari and Citroen used this on a V-6 block in the early 70's. It
might have been used earlier though. I think it depends on how the
aluminum is age hardened, as to how much of the silicon rises to the
surface. I do know that the Russian model airplane motors (Norvel)
use the hard anodizing on their cylinder heads. Depending on how the
anodizing is processed its like a sapphire coating. Tom (22642) |
| The biggest problem with the Vega
setup was the fact that the tops of the cyls. were not attached to
any thing and they moved around and you could not keep a head gasket
in one. Vega means falling star. (22643) |
| 10" tool room
lathe bed restoration |
| I have a SB 10"
toolroom lathe that I was in my machining business. The lathe is
fully outfitted with just about every option and accessory that SB
offered for that lathe. Everything is in excellent condition, except
the bed ways and carriage have some wear. It would cost me a fortune
to purchase a decent quality new lathe with all of these accessories
and options, so I would like to have the SB bed scraped or ground to
restore it to it's original accuracy. Does anyone have suggestions
on a company that could do this? I know it's not cheap. Does anyone
have any idea what the cost would be? Brian (23856) |
| Several
members have used South Bend in Indiana I believe or another company
or individual also in Indiana . South Bend is probably most
expensive and seemed to me the other company was about 1/2 to 2/3 of
SB's price. These members who have had this done will most likely
chime in soon. I believe all members were advised that the saddle
should also be done along with bed at the same time and ground and
scraped to fit as a pair. I do machine repair at work and this is
how we would do it. I would tell you to search the archived messages
but I have not had any luck with using the search
vehicle provided. Ron(23857) |
| Brian, Do a search of the archives for "bed
grinding" and hit the "next" button a few times and you will run
into the thread on regrinding beds. Lots of posts there over the
last few months. Irby
(23859) |
| I have upload a
drawing on making the bed way replaceable See the drawing at the
Yahoo user group SouthBendLathePix
http://finance.groups.yahoo.com/group/SouthBendLathePix/files/Drawings
(23861) |
| Brian I contacted
South Bend within the last couple of weeks and asked the same
question. Putting the machine back to specs is around $2,200. I
believe that included the cross slide and the compound. I have no
idea if this price is in line or not. Roger(23929) |
| Home Shop Machinist
(Village Press) just had a short series on re-furbishing lathes.
There is a good, but pricey book advertised there on "Reconditioning
of Machine Tools." (23937) |
| I don't know where
you guys live, but if you are close to Indianapolis, you could swing
by my place and see the job that the Acme Machine place did on my
lathe. I am still pretty happy with it. Kevin (23938) |
| Rebuild help |
| I need some
guidance for rebuilding a 16" SB turret lathe. The bed has been
reground. The saddle wear (.004) has been machined down and I will be
fitting the production cross-slide to the saddle next. After the
cross-slide I need to fit the saddle to the lathe bed. The bottom of
the saddle will be built up using Moglice. I need to make sure that
the saddle is perfectly square to the bed and the spindle. I was
planning on using the chuck and a test indicator. If the back of my
chuck is wore or the spindle isn't true to the bed how do I ensure
that the saddle will be positioned correct. I want to make sure this
one is right when I am done. Richard (25637) |
| A chuck
should be fine to use, measure a point close to the outside edge of
the chuck nearest to the front, right on the center line height of
the spindle with a dial indicator. Then lock the carriage in place,
now move the cross slide a little and place a magic marker "X" on
the spot the indicator was just on. Go back to the "X" spot, and
zero in (only by turning the bezel) or note the indicator reading.
Now rotate the chuck 180 degrees by hand and advance the cross slide
to sit exactly on the "X" as before. I'm pretty sure that lathes are
supposed to cut a very slight concave surface, so the reading might
be off a few thousandths (maybe 1 or 2 but not exactly sure how
much) with the far side being closer to the headstock side. Have the
gibs adjusted up nice, and the largest chuck or face plate you have
would be best. With this method it doesn't matter if the chuck or
face plate runs true or not, you still get a true reading. I hope
it's good on your first check. Jim (25652) |
| Jim, The entire lathe is getting a rebuild. First I need
to square the saddle to the headstock. The saddle dove tails needed
to be machined to remove the center wear. the cross- slide will be
hand fit after I get the saddle taken care of. Then I need to work
on the turret assembly. Hopefully I will be able to find a 16"
compound cross-slide and a standard tail stock to refit also. Richard (25658) |
