| Rust Retarding (Oct 14,
2001) |
Vinegar/derusting (Aug
31, 2003) |
| Rust Stuck Things: Long Slow Soak
process (Feb 7, 2002) |
Rust Prevention of Step Pulleys
(Nov 21, 2003) |
| Rust remover (Feb 18,
2002) |
Machine rust (Nov 24,
2003) |
| Flash Rust, What a pain! What to
do? (Nov 15, 2002) |
Rust Removal (Apr 29,
2004) |
| Rust Removal (Feb 18,
2003) |
Rust, oil and metal (Sep
14, 2004) |
| Looking for rust prevention ideas
(Jul 21, 2003) |
Removing rust on ways
(Jan 14, 2005) |
| Rust removal (Jul 24,
2003) |
16" Spindle rust removal
(Feb 22, 2005) |
| De-Rusting (Aug 3, 2003) |
Rust Chemistry (Mar 4, 2005) |
| |
| Rust Retarding |
| I thought
that I had taken enough precautions in storing my lathe (wiping down
with some oil and wrapping it up in a cloth), but when I went out to
look at it this weekend, taking those critical measurements to make
sure my lathe and bench will actually fit through the door to my
workshop, once again, parts were showing rust. Is there a good way
to prevent rust from appearing once you sand all the metal down?
I've heard a variety of common-sense approaches, but they sometimes
conflict. Right now, I'm toying between some fancy finishes and
pastes, continually re-spraying with maybe WD-40, and a simpler
approach of a spray-on lacquer finish that would presumably be more
permanent. G (1839) |
| If its a surface that you are going
to paint then you should primer it as soon as possible. If its a
surface that you aren't going to paint then the most effective
without being messy is a spray dry lube. It won't collect dust and
get messy and yet it keeps the surface from getting flash rust. If
there is a very high humidity then their are heavy duty coatings but
these have to be cleaned off again before the machine can be used.
The wrapping it in cloth is not a good idea. Almost always when
something touches the surface it is a spot for moisture to collect
and rust to start. The cloth collects moisture and then holds it on
the surface promoting rust. There are rust preventing papers that
are use by tool and gage people but they are rather expensive. The
white fabric material that is used in the building trades provide a
one way moisture barrier, you might try that but only use it as a
tarp to cover the machine. This stuff will let the area breathe and
not collect moisture. I tarp a lot of machines when they first
arrive and that I have to leave outside for a while because I have
to make space for them. I get surprisingly little rust and its
usually on some surface that was exposed. I live in Washington state
so I have plenty of moisture but the machine can breathe so moisture
doesn't condense and sit on a machine surface. Yasmiin (1840) |
| You might try REM
OIL, it comes in spray cans from Wal-Mart in the sporting goods
section, spray exposed areas heavily and leave it, another good one
is Break Free, it works good as a preventative, but for my uses I
don't care for it much, the best one I have found is Ballistol, but
it is some what hard to find, if a little kid swallows a pint of
Ballistol it won't even make 'em poop funny (I've got two little
ones to worry about), also makes your hands soft. I also agree about
the cloth, my grandfather ruined the paint on several cars because
he would cover them with blankets in the garage before he went away
for 3 or 4 months, big time rust. I also don't think that WD-40 is
all that it's cracked-up to be, the aforementioned three are much
better. M.L. (1843) |
| There is an excellent FAQ on this at
http://www.metalwebnews.com/howto/rust/rust.html (1847) |
| These
suggestions will give me something to do after getting three other
friends to help me move my 300+pound monster up a 45-degree hill.
Yeah, it's hideous, but fortunately, I don't plan to move for quite
a while. G
(1850) |
| Rust Stuck
Things: Long Slow Soak process |
| I will go along
with slow but sure approach when heat or violence is questionable.
To disassemble a tailstock turret which was rusted together, I left
it sit in a bucket of automatic transmission fluid drained from one
of my vehicles. Every so often, I would attack some of the taper
pins with a punch and hammer, then set it back in the bucket. After
a week or so, most of it cooperated, by coming apart although one
large nut still will not unscrew. However, eventually it will
cooperate, I expect! P.Isaac (3127) |
| One thing I've
found also works well (sometimes better than ATF) is automotive
brake fluid. Happened to notice how much rust got on my hands when
reworking an old rusty brake cylinder that had been on a car for
years. Tried brake fluid as a penetrating oil and was amazed! Lew
(3128) |
| You are right
about brake fluid being good at removing rust, but at the same time
it is removing the paint so it can only be used when there is no
painted finish or you don't care about the finish. Randy
(3134) |
| Electrolytic rust removal would work better than the oil
soak, as it actually *removes* the rust. Use a plastic container
large enough to keep the part submerged. Fill the container with
water and add a little sodium carbonate (a/k/a "washing soda", found
in the laundry detergent aisle of the supermarket; baking soda will
also work; so will lye, but is inherently hazardous to
use although using lye to de-rust an oily part will also remove
the oil via saponification). Connect a battery charger negative clip
to the part being de-rusted. Connect the positive clip to a
sacrificial anode (I use stainless steel foil to line the inside of
my container, and it lasts a long time; any scrap of steel will also
work). Do not allow the part being cleaned to short-circuit against
the anode (scraps of a cut-up plastic jug make good insulating
pads). Turn on the power. Low current works just fine, but takes
longer to remove the rust. The red rust is converted to black rust
and simply falls off. The base metal is not harmed in any way. This
method will removed the rust in the threads of fasteners if allowed
to remain in the tank long enough. Don't worry about the scum that
forms on the surface of the water. Let it stand undisturbed for a
while after you turn off the power and it will settle to the bottom.
Ken (3137) |
| Rust remover
|
| I mix a 50/50
solution of iodine and mercurochrome, spray it on and let it sit for
24 hrs. wipe off with a oil soaked rag and presto!! the rust is gone
with out marring any finish. Also good for seized parts and engines.
(3310) |
| And not bad for
those cuts on your fingers from stringy swarf. Paul R. (3311) |
| Flash Rust,
What a pain! What to do? |
| No matter
what I do after a few days my Chucks, tools, centers and all other
unpainted surfaces get this rust. What can be done about it? My shop
has a concrete floor and is fairly tight but I cant keep the
moisture
out and therefore the rust. (7286) |
| An oil
film goes a long way to help avoid rust. I have a dehumidifier, run
it around 8 to 9 months of the year. Keeping your shop just a few
degrees above the outside air temp in spring and fall helps, so the
tools aren't cool enough to condense moisture in the air. In the
summer try not to have doors open any more than you have to. A cheap
window air conditioner helps if your shop isn't in a part of the
house that gets A/C, both for comfort and for dryness, as a
dehumidifier puts out heat as part of the process. Sort of nice when
it's 50 out, not so nice when it's 100! Stan (7289) |
| Have you tried to
put a good concrete sealer on the floor? Frank (7290) |
| I installed a 5 mil
vapor barrier with the concrete. I suspect Stan has the answer with
the temp and condensation. Ill pick up a cheap Dehumidifier at my
local thrift store and run it this winter in the shop. Rains a lot
here in Al. this time of year.
(7310) |
| Jeff, What worked
for me up in Northern California was a car cover and a strip heater
to keep the lathe a degree or two warmer than the ambient
temperature. (A 15 watt light bulb left on, can do the same thing.)
You just need to prevent the condensation from forming on the iron.
Of course, liberal use of way oil doesn't hurt either. Jake (7311) |
| Agree with
everything said here. I guess I haven't been as lucky removing
silicone protectants from anything I've ever wanted to get a good
paint job on, though - despite MEK and even stronger solvents. Even
the solvents that auto body shops use won't get rid of it all, and
it remains the single most cursed material on earth for any
automotive body technician I've ever known. Actually there is
a solvent that does work well - Freon refrigerant - but someone
might frown on using it like they used to 'in the old days'. The
other problem with silicones is unintentional migration. Put your
hands on the lathe and it comes off on them in a flash - then you
grab the workpiece that you hope to paint someday and... :-(. The
idea of a protectant is an excellent one, and if you don't mind the
potential for painting frustration, silicones are fine - they have
the advantage of being readily available. Fortunately, there are
equally good products out there, including CRC and LPS, that don't
have silicone in them - see
http://www.lpslabs.com/Products/CorrosionInh/Lps3.asp
for an example. 500 hours salt spay should be enough for anyone. Mike (7319) |
| There is a spray
lube and rust preventive named Hilcolube it is sold by Hill
manufacturing and is the best lube/rust preventative I have ever seen
it does Not dry and thus doesn't get gummy like wd40 I use it on
machine tools as well as firearms that cost thousands of dollars if
anyone would like to try it drop me a line and I can supply the
phone number of the supplier. pjwizr_1999 (7324) |
| Break Free is a
good protectant, it's available at Wal-Mart in the sporting goods
section (gun cleaning supplies) Matt
(7326) |
| After 3 houses
with damp basements, I used a 6 mill vapor barrier under the concrete
that cuts the moisture level a lot. I even went overboard and in one
case put down 2" of Styrofoam and 6 mil vapor barrier under the
concrete. If you want a fix now I have seen where they put the vapor
barrier down and cover it with waterproof plywood in 4 X 8 sheets.
Another possibility is vapor barrier down and cover with an inch of
self leveling concrete. Walt (7339) |
| Rust Removal
|
| I have a 9"
Workshop lathe that SB says was made in 1938 and am working towards
getting it setup and need some advice on cleaning the 3 jaw chuck
which has some rust on it. It looks like it could be disassembled
for cleaning but am wondering if there is anything that I should
watch out for that I might screw up. It has 11 gears with a piece of
wire running through them to keep them together. The gears also have
rust on them. How many gears should there be? I'd be amazed it
that's all of them. Finally, what would be the recommended procedure
to remove the rust and to restore these parts. I'd say the parts are
lightly to medium rusted. I don't really want to bead blast the
parts or anything like that. Norm (9369) |
| The pile
of gears that you have are the gears that are required to set up the
gear train for the many threads that can be cut on your little
lathe. You will use only certain ones for certain threads according
to the chart on the cover of your machine. There is never a time
when you would use all of these gears at the same time. Lathes that
have the quick change selector boxes perform these operations within
the gear box. A much more simplified system. On the matter of rust
removal from those gears, there are two ways that are commonly used:
1) soak them in a pail of diesel fuel for a couple of days to loosen
the rust and then brush them off 2) And this is the one that I like
the best, brush them down with a generous bath of automatic
transmission fluid, let them sit for a while and then clean with
"chore girl" or a similar product from the kitchen sink. Automatic
transmission fluid is the best penetrating fluid that I have ever
discovered. It really is a lubricating oil but wow, does it ever
work well as a penetrating fluid! Desmond
(9373) |
| The
teardown on the Workshop series is pretty straightforward. To remove
the surface rust from the gears, there are several options other
than bead blasting. You can make a saturated solution of vinegar and
salt, then put the parts to be de-rusted in the solution for a day
or two. The parts have to be completely submerged, if anything
sticks up, there will be a nasty corrosion line at the point it
leaves the solution. After the soak, a gentle brushing will clean
them up nicely. Wash off in hot water then oil well. Fine wire
brushing is probably the quickest and easiest, a six inch fine brush
on the grinder arbor works pretty fast in most cases. Smaller
brushes spun in an electric drill or on the drill press can be
helpful for smaller areas. I usually clean out crusted grunge from
between gear teeth with a dental pick, then do a final pass with a
small wire brush in a Dremmel tool. Stan (9375) |
| Desmond I have been
using ATF since I was a teenager for penetrating oil, I also use it
for oiling anything that needs good lubrication. Clint (9384) |
| The vinegar/salt
solution creates a buffered solution of hydrochloric acid. While it
does convert the rust into ferric chloride, it also attacks the
sound metal. Don't use this method for anything that requires a
precision fit or moving contact. The chloride ion in the solution
will also induce chloride corrosion of the metal later if its not
thoroughly rinsed. The etched line at the air/liquid interface is
due to the dissolved oxygen at the interface. Any mechanical rust
removal method will also affect the sound metal. If you want to
remove *only* the rust, do it electrolytically. Dissolve a few
tablespoons of sodium carbonate (a/k/a "washing soda", available in
the laundry detergent aisle of the supermarket) to a bucket of
water; one tablespoon per gallon . Baking soda (sodium hydrogen
carbonate) can be used in place of washing soda, but doesn't work as
well. Thoroughly degrease the part. Connect the negative terminal of
a battery charger to the part to be de-rusted. Connect the positive
terminal to a bar or sheet of stainless steel or scrap of steel.
Place the bar or sheet into the bucket with the battery charger clip
out of the liquid. Make sure the items don't short circuit together
(you can use scraps of a cut-up plastic bottle to make insulators if
necessary). Turn on the battery charger. If the current is too high,
select a lower voltage setting on the charger. Let it run for a few
hours, or days if necessary. Warning: Do not reach into the liquid
unless you turn off the power first. The process does not affect the
sound metal; it removes only the rust. The scum that forms is
microscopic rust particles being carried on the bubbles; it settles
to the bottom after power is shut off for a while. Remove the part
and rinse off with hot water, and scrub with a brush. The part will
very quickly begin to rust, so apply some preservative. A bath in a
phosphate conversion coating solution will for a protective layer.
The stuff in the bucket can be used to water your garden. Note: be
careful of polarity...if you hook it up backwards, the gear will
rust instead of the sacrificial anode. Stainless steel heat treating
foil works well as the anode. [snip] Ken (9412) |
| Looking for
rust prevention ideas |
| I am looking for
ideas on how to keep my lathe from rusting this winter when it is in
my unheated garage. I have been coating everything with way oil and
then covering it up with a sheet when I an not using it to prevent
condensation. This helps but I still get a little bit of rusting in
places that I forgot to oil or are hard to monitor like inside the
spindle bore. I am thinking of placing an engine block heater like
this one:
http://www.engine-heater.com/products.shtml somewhere on the
lathe to keep the lathe warm all of the time. I also thought about
somehow covering the lathe in a plastic bubble and injecting some
sort of gas (don't know what yet) to prevent rusting, or to somehow
keep a constant air temperature around the lathe. These are just
some ideas that I wanted to throw out for discussion. (12850) |
| You don't say in
what part of the country you live. Moisture condenses when the temp
goes below the dew point so if you were to keep your lathe a bit
warmer than ambient temp it would stay relatively dry, although
still exposed to humidity in the air. Don't use a plastic sheet -
use a cloth one. The cloth sheet will protect from airborne crap,
not moisture - but a plastic sheet will trap moisture and make
things worse. If you could cocoon it, you could put a desiccant into
the cocoon before sealing (calcium chloride in a pan). I've never
used them, but there are sprays for this purpose and you could take
the chucks, loose gears, small parts and tools into your house over
winter. If you were to spray and oil the foo out of the lathe,
perhaps build a box out of thin ply or paneling to go over it, you
could just put a light bulb into the box under the lathe and this
would keep the air warm enough unless you live in a very cold
climate where you might use two. Frank (12852) |
| You could coat the
exposed rustable parts with common grease and don't use plastic to
cover it use canvas or cloth, water will condense on the bottom side
of plastic and make a terrarium out of your lathe causing it to rust
must worse than if left uncovered. Terrance (12855) |
| John, try switching
to WD 40 as your general purpose cutting oil. I found that over the
year it seems to get into all the bits and provide protection to the
parts you miss. Its no more expensive than proper cutting oils or
suds if you buy in gallon cans and use a trigger spray. Keeping it
warm with a light bulb or two under the cover works well but I'd try
and get some of the Gore-Tex backed sheet material for the cover
(used in car covers among other things) rather than just using an
old sheet. I found that a sheet tends to hold low level dampness
whereas the Gore-Tex backed stuff used by a friend (chopped out of a
wind damaged car cover) just lets the damp right out. Best to make
folding frame (pram hood style) or fix it to the shelf above and
cascade down. You need airspace around it so the cover does not
touch the machine. Clive (12862) |
| You didn't mention
if you want to use it occasionally or not. One simple way to keep it
accessible and clean and dry is to build a box to go over it. Use
thin wood and that Styrofoam insulation. the box will keep off dust
and stuff, and you can put a small refrigerator light inside. (not
sure if the light in the fridge goes off when you close the door,
but that is another question). If you plan it out, you can make
the box hinge a few ways so you can just hinge and fold and wind up
with a tidy section. On another note, WD-40 is good for 6
months - out of the weather protection. LPS is similar LPS2 is good
for a 2 years ? LPS3 is grease like spray and is good for 6 months
in the weather. The box idea will benefit from camphor as the gas
protects or so I hear, never tried it myself. Dave (12863) |
| WD40 might be a
good cutting lube, but I have seen damage done to delicate
instrument bearings and parts by the stuff. As a penetrating oil it
is good for rusted hinges and the like, but I wouldn't slather it on
my lathe. It is a penetrating oil, not a machine lubricant and as a
penetrating oil it will cut thru heavier lubricants. Frank (12869) |
| Penetrating slather
and This topic comes up occasionally, WD-40 is designed to CUT thru
oil, not leave a long lasting protective film. It WILL protect for
months, but it does evaporate. The problem is that it cuts the oil
film and this is a great way to penetrate, but in cutting the oil
film, it leaves only it's own residue. For longer term, use a grease
or some sprays with wax or paraffin additives. As a cutting oil, I
love tap-magic and use that for tapping, but also love the benefit
of WD-40 on cutting aluminum. I use it on the lathe, drill press and
band saw. Dave (12883) |
| What part of the
country are you in? remember oil is your friend. You can never go
wrong. here in Chicago, in my detached garage, I have used both an
infra red heat lamp (brooder style) but better yet I found was a
300W halogen work light 'focused' on the lathe. Seemed to be ok.
Light clamped on the rafter. I don't open the overhead door more
than once or twice a week, which helps. Temp rarely goes below
freezing in the garage. but to use the lathe, I start the heater at
least an hour or so to get the overall machine up to temp. Then I
start off slow. dennis (12886) |
| WD40 also dries and
gum's-up delicate parts, it can really make a mess. Most fine
firearm makers even go as far as to void a warranty if it is used as
a lube. Mike (12887) |
| Seems WD-40 has it
plus points and it's bad points. on an angled plate like ways, or an
open surface like a drill press table, wd-40 will allow rust pretty
quickly as it is very effective is dissolving oil and grease. I can
only imagine that any oil or grease would be taken out of it's
manufactures formula, then re-coagulate making a gummy mess. I have
never had a problem with residue on parts that were sprayed and
wiped and re-sprayed but then I work on larger stuff. Dave (12893) |
| I don't have a can
of WD-40 on hand at the moment so I cannot read the label. I don't
use WD for an oil any more because it tends to dry out and leave a
caramel colored goo that is tough to remove. I do tend to use
Marvels Mystery Oil however in place of WD-40 as a surface spray.
The best way to stop your lathe from rusting is to use it year
round. I am about to insulate my garage roof and outer walls this
summer so I can work in the winter months. (12896) |
| Any kind of radiant
heat that warms the metal directly is OK if you just want to raise
the metal's temp, but is probably not too good if you then want to
use the machine. You will not be able to warm the whole thing
uniformly and will get uneven wear. Putting a small enclosure around
the lathe and warming the air within it, while perhaps taking
longer, will be more uniform and gently. Frank (12900) |
| We have had good
results with LPS-3. Dave (12902) |
| There is a product
which has not been discussed, although I think it was mentioned. It
is called BOESHIELD T-9. It was developed by the BOEING Co for
protection of Aircraft parts. The can states: "A combination of
solvents lubricants and waxes. Designed for penetration, moisture
displacement lubrication and protection." ..."dries to a thin waxy
film that clings to metal for months". ... I use it on my cast iron
cabinet saw, router table, Band saw table and jointer. It works
against humidity but will not withstand water droppings. Jim
B. (12903) |
| Has anyone ever
heard of Cosmoline? Nothing beats this rust prevention coating! have
bought machinery that has been stored outside for years and was
coated with it, when the cosmoline was scrubbed off only bare metal
was there. Mike (12914) |
| Cosmoline would be
great for long term storage of a machine, for short term storage it
is really out of the question. To remove cosmoline the parts have to
be washed with solvent and re-lubricated, and with a lathe that
would mean disassembling it at least partially. Paint the ways with
it? sure, the lead screw? sure, but what else? anything else and you
stand a chance of it entering bearings or gearing and requiring
disassembling of the machine. Its not compatible with oil and will
wipe a bearing out in very short order it has to be totally removed.
It is mostly used by industry for long term storage and protection
of parts and machinery that has to be cleaned and assembled before
use, they are pretty much going away from the use of it. A nasty
chemical to use and requires more nasty chemicals to remove and plus
a lot of work. I would look to oils grease or other protective
coatings like LPS ,WD-40. Terrance (12916) |
| I do not believe
that WD40 is anything close to a serious rust preventative - I
recall reading that its molecular structure allows water molecules
to penetrate through to flat surfaces. FWIW, I am copying below a
thread I had archived from rec metalworking a little while back on
the relative effectiveness of certain rust preventatives - don't
know the author or the companies mentioned - and I haven't
personally verified the conclusions - I assume that since the study
there may well be newer compounds available. Posted by D. Thomas
April 2002 I mentioned this study in a previous thread and there was
some interest in the products tested and actual results, so here it
is. Testing was done in 1998 by Practical Sailor magazine (see
link), which to those that don't know, is a sort of Consumer Reports
for boating related accessories, that accepts no advertising, and is
known for thorough testing. Eleven anti corrosion products were
tested and exposed to fresh and saltwater. 6 inch strips of
unfinished mild steel were buffed until shiny, degreased and dried.
Then the products were applied according to manuf. recommendations,
using new cloths and applicators to avoid cross contamination.
(there are more details about the applications but you get the
picture) The fresh water strips were hung outside and periodically
doused with water, the saltwater strips were affixed to a bulkhead
in a tidal cove, where they were submerged twice daily at high tide.
Conclusions were the CRC Heavy Duty was the clear winner in fresh
and saltwater, bollowed by Bull Frog, and Lanacote paste. Also
effective was Mariner's Choice Original Sea Spray, particularly for
freshwater. They mention that because Bull Frog and Mariner's Choice
perform better with thicker (and stickier) coats they would be
better for metal parts one wouldn't be touching often, such as
trailer springs. Boeshield T-9 was the highest priced of all the
products per ounce, with test results "fair" in freshwater and
"poor" in salt. Permatex Silicone spray, Corrosion Block and MDR
Metal wax were "poor" in both. CRC was "excellent" in both.
Curiously, they did not even test LPS-3, which I had mixed up with
the CRC in my mind, so we still don't know how the LPS would compare
to the CRC, but I suspect they would hold up about the same. Re
Boeshield, since it's the most popular here I'll elaborate more on
it. Rose (12930) |
| Rust removal |
| I started
small, with the tailstock wrench tailstock lever, and I had pretty
good results, I think, using Mert Baker's (from the Craftsman List)
suggestion, sort of. I couldn't find any form of phosphoric acid
other than Naval Jelly, which warned me six ways from Sunday of
trying to dilute it. Can any of you recommend any brand names of
phosphoric acid which I can dilute in water? Also, as I wrote on my
lathe site, I'd like to get a better surface on the iron parts.
Actually, maybe I should back up a little (and demonstrate more of
my cluelessness). Why is there more crusty black stuff on the
handle of the wrench than on the wrench head? Isn't the whole thing
made of cast iron? Or is the head hardened in some way, therefore
staying less corroded? Same goes for the lever: the handle of the
lever is quite bumpy crusty black, whereas the threaded part is
pretty pristine. I thought that might be because the threaded part
was made of a hardened steel, but I sure don't know for sure. I put
up some before after pictures of the parts I cleaned, as well as
some text. http://www.troutstar.com/lathe/ Iliana (12915) |
| I get it at Home
Depot, look for scale and rust remover. Read the label to make sure
it contains phosphoric acid. Also check at a fertilizer supply as it
is a fertilizer. Heating and plumbing supplies carry it as well for
scale and rust treatment of boilers believe its called Scale o Matic.
Coca-Cola will also work but it contains a very weak solution, so it
will take a very long time and repeated applications to realize any
benefit. Perhaps the difference in the amount of rust and scale is
caused because the wrench end is machined with a smooth surface
where the handles are not, the rougher surface has more surface area
for oxides to form? Also the handles are less likely to have as oils
present to protect them. Terrance 12919) |
| Iliana, Why do you
want to dilute the Ph. acid? It's always use full strength. Regular
liquid Ph acid can be found at good paint stores that cater to the
painters trade. Sometimes at hardware stores. It's naturally green
in color. BTW, some paint primers specifically state that prep with
this acid is not allowed. Be aware that looong soak times will
also destroy the base metal by honey combing. Any remaining trace of
oil on the part of the metal will have prevented heavy rust. Rusting
pits iron and steel very badly. No way to restore the surface except
by replacement or grinding down. RichD (12920) |
| Why not use
evaporust? Check out cleantech magazine's website (do a search) and
you can find an article on this supposedly great stuff, which I
still haven't tried but will soon. Tom (12943) |
| I found chemical
rust removal for a project involving many many parts very
inefficient (messy and unpleasant) - the most effective method I
have found is electrolysis using a 5 gallon plastic bucket, water,
baking soda, a bit of stainless steel and an inexpensive car battery
charger - it works very well, the process works on its own while you
can be doing other things, its not messy or potentially harmful. The
only "must" is that after you remove the item and clean it
off/polish it - you must protect it promptly with a good rust
preventative or it will rust up again very quickly. Ed R. (12948) |
| Ed, Which are the
positive and negative connections? John (12952) |
| Ed, can you offer
more details ? I had looked into electrical rust removal last year
and I came up with needing chemicals that I didn't want in the
house. also, where does the stainless steel come in ? is that just
so the electrode doesn't rust ? Dave (12955) |
| Dave, any of
several ordinary household chemicals are used. Baking soda, washing
soda, vinegar, salt, etc. This is an article from some web site. I
have used every method successfully. No serious safety problems.
RichD ======= Rust Removal Electrolyticly This method will remove
all rust from iron and steel without harming the metal. Make up a
bath in a plastic or stainless steel tub of a solution of: ..Sodium
Bisulphate (HTH PH Minus swimming pool chemical) and water about 1
to 10. or ..Sodium Carbonate (washing soda) and water about 1 to 10.
If using a plastic container provide a steel anode (+) to one side
that will NOT touch the parts. A piece of clean sheet steel about
half as big as the part will do. Immerse the rusty part fully (no
part above the surface) and connect the minus (-) battery lead. A
battery charger will do. With the power on you should see bubbles
form on the part. Leave as long as necessary to clean the metal
although an occasional wipe down under running tap water will help
to dislodge heavier crud and allow the solution to get to the
surface rust. All parts to be cleaned must be single pieces with no
attached parts or hardware. When finished rinse off and immediately
dry off with air blast and/or hot hair drier then coat with oil or
finish. An alternate method is to use a saturated solution of table
salt and white vinegar. Dissolve as much salt into the vinegar as it
will take. Soak the part in this (no part above the surface) or rub
all over with a soaking terrycloth rag. Rinse well under hot water
and dry quickly. No electric current is used. (12958) |
| Has anyone thought
about using Simple Green? It's a de-greaser made from orange
concentrate, bio-degradable and non-toxic. I have used it on on
automotive de-greasing application with great success! You can get
it at Wal-Mart or any hardware store. W. Sharp (12961) |
| W. Sharp I use it
and similar products all the time with great success, I even use it
in place of the caustic cleaners I have used in my electroplating
setup. Clint (12962) |
| Clint, yes, Simple
Green is great stuff! I use it to de-grease engines and motorcycle
chain's etc. It has a great orange smell also Bill (12964) |
| The piece to be
de-rusted is connected to the negative (black) lead (this is
important) Stainless steel is not essential, it just resists
corrosion better and therefore works more effectively as an
electrode for longer - You can just get a very cheap and thin
stainless steel pot cover (or other utensil) at the local hardware
store and cut it up. A small amount of baking or washing soda works
fine - I have not found it necessary to use more elaborate chemicals
- they don't produce any chemical action other than to generate the
ions which improve the conductivity of the water - it is the
electrical action, rather than any chemical reaction, that removes
the rust. Gas bubbles are produced. This is hydrogen - some articles
urge caution (i.e. ventilation) to prevent accumulation of the gas
(hydrogen can explode), although it is not a toxic fume. There are
many sites on the web that go into detail on the process - I have
copied one typical URL below (I am not affiliated with it in any way
- it came up first in a Google search - Okay, I'm lazy, I didn't
want to have to type a description of the entire process) Good luck
- and remember, coat the piece with a rust inhibitor as soon as
you've cleaned/polished it up.
http://www.stovebolt.com/techtips/rust/electrolytic_derusting.htm
(12982) |
| I
looked at the description again on that web site - I had forgotten -
cast iron parts in particular will soak up the water and it is a
good idea to dry them, after cleaning them off, with a hair dryer,
hot air gun (like for paint removal), small torch or baking oven,
etc. (12985) |
| De-Rusting |
| There have been a number of posts, mine among them, in recent weeks
about de-rusting. I have been investigating the many methods and
solutions used in the process and thought I would pass along my
observations and thoughts. First off, if you do a Google search on rust+removal you will get 129,000 hits. That would tend to indicate
there is a ton of information about the subject. To much to go
through in this lifetime. I am also sure that while some of it is
good info, most of it probably is not. The best treatise on rust
that I have found is
http://www.metalwebnews.com/howto/rust/rust.html One
extremely important consideration is that just about all of the
processes and solutions are caustic and therefore DANGEROUS. Many of
them also attack parent metal and as such need to be watched
carefully. Also be aware that once you procure many of the solutions
you are stuck with them for yours and your descendents lifetimes.
You cannot recycle or otherwise get rid of most of them by usual
methods. The methods that are safe unfortunately take time and/or
elbow grease. Some of the safer methods employ household cleaners
like Simple Green, etc. Things such as that and Kerosene, Hydraulic
Fluid require a lot of rub-a-dub-dub with the proverbial scotch
bright pads. With that in hand I decided to try the electrolysis
method using sodium carbonate, i.e. washing powder, swimming pool
PH+, etc. This method allows you to set and forget. Especially if
your charger has a timer on it. Plus, this solution does not attack
the parent metal so you can leave it in there as long as you like.
Just make sure you use it out doors or where there is plenty of
ventilation. I have posted some photos in the SBlathespix list
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SouthBendLathePix/ under
Fred's stuff of my setup and first attempt. Hopefully the photos
show well. Unfortunately the first results, after 6 hours, look
worse then the start. I think a couple of things are taking place
here. As one can see the max current that was drawn was just over 1
amp. This stayed constant through the whole process. The six hour
time I selected was just arbitrary. The steady rest was pretty
groaty to start with and I believe the rust shown in the end result
was underlying. I did not dissemble the rest and therefore believe
there was a lot of insufficient contact between parts of the rest as
well as contact between the clamps from the charger and both the
anode, which BTW is a 9x10x3/8 piece of SS plate, and the steady
rest. The clamps that come with common battery chargers are at best
lousy. I intend to dissemble the steady rest and procure stiff,
heavy duty alligator clamps to replace the OEM ones. Another upgrade
will be to make a positive connection with the anode by way of a
terminal, instead of a clip, and bolt, nut, and star washer. Fred (13123) |
| Fred. Did you
notice if it removed cadmium plating from fasteners. I would like to
know how to do this. GW (13126) |
| GW, Not having had
any cadmium plating on it I cannot attest to that. What I would do
for something like that is contact a number of local platters and
get recommendations on what to use. I have found they each have
different methods. Clint may know something since he does a lot of
plating. What say ye Clint? Fred (13127) |
| Good work on the
research Fred, In my toy shop, I have a Trinco 48" bead-blasting
cabinet... it's really one of the most used tools in my shop. I
restored my 10" South Bend with this machine, the only parts I
didn't choose to bead-blast were the ways, and of course other
precision items that you wouldn't blast such as bearings, etc...
there wasn't any rust on these parts in the first place.
Bead-blasting is somewhat safe, does (in my opinion) a very good job
of removing rust corrosion. You have to be careful if you use a
silica based medium, not good for the lungs. Very fast method too,
and doesn't hurt the metal at all, just don't do the ways, you'd
probably have to re-scrape them or something. I blast my pewter
miniatures with this beast, it brings out the detail from the
castings. Just wanted to add this method of rust removal as well,
Jason (13128) |
| I like to sandblast
as much as possible when removing old plating, I use a solution of
Muratic Acid and water 50/50 sometimes it helps to heat the
solution. I have not done much chemical removal of Cadium, I have
blasted it however. Clint(13133) |
| Jason, I had
contemplated bead blasting initially but that requires a horrific
initial expense for me. Cabinet, compressor, gun, medium, etc, etc.
I am sure this has also deterred others. It is a viable exercise
though. Fred (13134) |
| I have use my bead
blaster a lot during restoration of my 9 inch. In most cases I have
masked the precision areas ( scraped areas and machined areas ) on
the parts before blasting. I have most of the parts done and powder
coated. I am a little nervous about powder coating the headstock so
that might get painted along with the bead. I am using a single
stage ( non clear coat ) automotive paint it is catalyzed and is
resistant to solvents and pretty tough when applied properly. I have
also used a plastic media from time to time that is very gentle and
can easily be used on precision surfaces. It does not remove rust as
well as glass beads and doesn't seem to get castings really clean if
the surface is rough. The bead blasting and powder coating is a lot
easier than strippers and chemical rust removal and painting. I can
do both all year round. The next phase is to finish getting the
underdrive bench cleaned up and powder coat it with a gray wrinkle
finish like the original. For that I have an infrared heater that I
will use to bake it. (13135) |
| Nobody likes a wet
blanket, but I am not the only chemist on here, and I have got to
make some comments, since I have not seen anyone else do it. And if
you dissolve the cadmium plating, what are you going to do with the
solution to avoid paying the EPA a fine when you go to dump the
stuff? If anyone gets caught dumping cadmium salts, they are going
to think a building fell on them. I have been having a problem
getting my head around the electrolysis scheme. By connecting the
workpiece to (-) in a solution of sodium carbonate, all you are
doing is generating hydrogen at the rusty iron. Maybe it will reduce
the oxide, maybe not. Sodium ion concentration will increase at the
surface of the iron. If you use TSP, then the -PO4, which would be
beneficial at converting the oxide to the basic phosphate
(Parkerizing) is only going to happen at the anode. Using HCl as a
deruster will load the iron with ferric chloride, which is
deliquescent. Yes, it will remove the rust quickly, but every damp
day, it will rust even faster afterwards, unless it is neutralized
with a strong base afterwards, and rinsed well prior to painting.
Phosphoric acid solution will convert rust to the phosphate. That's
what Naval Jelly is about. If it were me, I would see if the rental
places rent bead blasters. I just did a search and found places that
rent sandblasters for $36 a day. (13140) |
| Jon, The
electrolysis converts hard red ferric oxide to soft black ferrous
oxide. Rubs off easily and does not harm the parent metal. The
Sodium Carbonate helps clean the oils out as well. Rinse and paint.
RichD (13141) |
| Jon How you going
to remove the cadium from the blast media??? I have ways to get it
out of solutions. Clint (13143) |
| Fred, oh no doubt,
I got lucky on the air compressor, it was basically free, brand new
C-Aire USA type, the guy thought it was broken, some rich guy, my
dad bought it off him for $200, turns out it was a gasket leak. Dad
gave it to me for Christmas. The Trinco machine was about $900 or
$1000 if I remember right. So yeah, it would be prohibitive to some
or possibly most. What parts on a South Bend are Cadmium-Plated?
That stuff is not good for you! Jason (13145) |
| Jason, What a deal.
I do not know of any parts that are cadmium plated. I think that
thread got in here from someone who just wanted to know how you
strip that off. I think when all is said and done the electrolysis
method, for me, will be the first part of a lengthily process
including elbow grease. The degreasing and derusting is a whole
process in itself. Priming and painting will be another exercise.
Fred (13146) |
| Yes, the same
problem that the lead-paint removers have. They end up with more
waste in pounds than the original lead paint. The trouble is that
you are not supposed to treat the waste, for example, by
precipitation, etc. (Legally, anyway) I'd mask the cadmium and
leave it on. It's not doing any harm where it is. (13149) |
| Fred What I do with
any strippers/cleaners after I use them, I just keep the solution
stored till I need it again for another project. If my solution gets
to dirty, I will then let evaporate down to solids. I keep my solids
in marked containers and when I need, I just take it to the legal
drops. To this day I have never had over 5 gallons of solids.
Clint (13151) |
| Steve, have you
tried using walnut shell or pecan shell media? these are moderately
aggressive in the larger sizes but dont cut into harder metals as
much. they might be a little more effective than the beads but
gentler than the glass because the shell has sharp edges. it's used
for cleaning deposits from the inside of jet turbines because it
doesn't affect the blade metal and goes right through into the hot
section, where it is consumed. the silica glass beads are harder
than the metal and probably leave an indentation where they strike
the bare metal, unless the metal is very hard. this will damage
precision surfaces. shell blasting will probably not damage many
metal surfaces at moderate air pressure. soft metals can still be
damaged though with extended or high- pressure blasting. shell media
is usually available from the normal cleaning media dealers. I have
never tried it but have heard that blast polishing is possible using
terated corncob media. the stuff is doped with a metal polish and
mixed until dry, then used for blasting the surface to be polished.
the corncob is much softer than the metal but the polish is firmly
pressed against the metal by the spongy impact of the corncob
"beads". like the other beads and shell, it's also re-usable if you
clean it in a vortex separator to draw out the fines. btw, has
anybody used one of the aftermarket vortex separators that are made
to use with a shop-vac? (13154) |
| Clint, Sounds like
a good exercise. Never thought of doing that. Fred (13157) |
| I'm currently using
the glass bead, and have concluded that unless you are giving the
blasting cabinet full pressure of your industrial air compressor,
you will probably be fine using it. I have considered using the
shell media type, but since I do toys and model engineering, I
figured the smaller particles of glass would give me the detail that
I require, but I've used 120 psi on a very soft metal (American
Pewter) and it probably would damage the metal if the blast was left
on the metal for longer amounts of time. DO NOT USE this stuff on
bed-ways though, it is an abrasive, and I feel that simple hand
scraping would be a better alternative. Now that is one hell of an
idea, I would love to try that out on some larger brass cast parts
of mine. My Trinco uses a bag filter type, and the reclaimable media
is very acceptable. I found out about some separator through JL
industrial for the Trinco, but it was too much money for me! Jason
(13165) |
| I have used walnut
hulls on aluminum cylinder heads for removing carbon and light
corrosion. The plastic is only a little bit more aggressive. For the
cast iron parts it works fine. Aside from the precision areas the
South Bend parts are pretty tough and the glass beads are fine. I
wouldn't be concerned using an aluminum oxide grit to clean them.
For this project there is very little rust involved mostly removing
2 or 3 heavy coats of paint that are falling off in spots anyway.
The automotive people use glass beads on aluminum cylinder heads
including the machined surfaces so it shouldn't be a problem on cast
iron. I am being conservative on the lathe and avoiding all the
machined surfaces anyway. The blasting supplier that I used to use
recommended that you blast using the same material that you are
blasting. (13168) |
| The machined
surfaces on cylinder heads that need to be maintained flat are mated
using gaskets, which will easily make up for the relatively small
surface texture created by the blasting operation. Not so with
machined surfaces that mate with other machined surfaces. btw, most
cylinder heads are polished inside the cylinder area so that
combustion products don't adhere as well. Air passages are polished
to maintain flow characteristics and reject adhesion also. these can
all be affected by change in the surface texture. On a motor rebuild
for a restoration, I would definitely not want to change the
surfaces any more than absolutely necessary. If it's just a simple
rehab of a lower-cost workhorse motor, then the bead blast is the
good way to get back to work with minimal cost and effort, and loss
of like-new capacity or condition is not an issue. in areas of
hobbyist and restoration/recovery interest, I would think it just as
easy and much cheaper to go with lower pressures and less aggressive
media, and just take more time and care to get the job done.
including am being anyway. (13176) |
| Vinegar/derusting |
| I've
been taking apart a Junior 8 SB and cleaning/lubing it. It had a six inch, what
turned out to be a Skinner, chuck. It was rusty. It was not the rust
that you can put a drop of oil on your finger and rub off. No, it
was a degree or two beyond that but not scaled or pitted. (By the
way, is there a generally accepted scale of rusting? ) The chuck was
on the lathe and it would not turn, nor would the jaws move. I took
the bolts that held the chuck to the adapter plate off and the chuck
came off. I put wd-40 all over it and finally the jaws loosened up
and I was able to open and close the jaws. But the rust looked
terrible. I took the chuck all apart. The large plate inside that
has the spiral groove on one side and the teeth on the other was
nice and clean, that is no rust. The biggest piece was the one that
I thought I'd start on. But, what to do? The metal working newsgroup
has had a running dialog about vinegar and salt, so I thought I'd
try it. Went to the local Grocery store and picked up a gallon of
vinegar. There were two types. One was called Cider vinegar and the
other was called Grain vinegar. I grabbed the Grain type, and then I
got a plastic container at the local 99 cent store. I put the piece
in the container, outside the house, poured in enough vinegar to
cover the piece by about a half inch and then I put in about a table
spoon of salt and stirred it as best I could with the chuck piece in
it. Put a lid on it and came in. This morning I went out to see what
had happened. Took the lid off and looked in. Still rusty! Hmm!
Got an old tooth brush and brushed the rust, and it came off as
slick as could be. I brushed it all off and then rinsed it under the
hose. Rust was all gone. Dried it off and doused it with oil, to
hopefully keep it from re-rusting. I could now read that it was a
Skinner made in New Britain CT and it was a model 3106. Had to look
at the trade mark for a while to realize that it was a stylized S
and not an elephant's head. Most chucks seem to have a shinny
surface and I suppose that this chuck was shinny when it was new.
Now it has a clean metal surface but it is rough. Not like a corn
cob but rather like flat paint. Remember when you were a kid and
made model planes and tanks? There was shinny paint and the flat
paint. Well the surface of the cleaned part is like it has flat
silver paint on it. Not a problem but rather and observation.
Bob (13707) |
| Rust
Prevention of Step Pulleys |
| I have just
recently purchased a 16" SB. I have it stored in my garage. I am
partitioning an area that will be well insulated and then heated
with electric baseboard heaters. In the meantime I have well oiled
the lathe and covered it. Yesterday we had a warm spell with heavy
rain. According to my Hygrometer the garage was at 90% relative
humidity at 60 degrees and there was condensate on some parts of the
lathe. To my dismay there was a uniform covering of red rust on the
flat belt pulleys top and bottom. Now this really hurts because this
lathe has never seen rust in its 30 some year of life. What do I do
to get rid of the rust and prevent this from happening until I get
it into the heated area? John (15119) |
| Personally I use BOESHIELD but according to the threads
there are better products. Jim B.(15121) |
| You might try
covering the lathe with a tarp and putting a small lamp under the
tarp. The heat from the lamp should help keep moisture away from the
lathe. Just be careful to keep the lamp away from the tarp, I don't
want to hear about any fires. Glen (15166) |
| Take the flat belt
off, leather will absorb moisture and hold it against the sheave.
For the pulleys, steel wool them and oil them. I use Break Free CLP.
It gets into the pores of the metal and inhibits rust. If you decide
to tarp it keep the ends open like a pup tent. The poly tarps
actually hold moisture in and can be detrimental unless you have
thru air flow. They are also highly combustible so cotton is a
better choice, although more expensive. JP (15167) |
| Machine rust
|
| Our weather has
been unusually humid and warm lately. I made my daily jaunt to the
shed a few days ago and found about everything I own covered with a
thin film of rust. The overarm on my horiz mill was actually
dripping water along the full length. The previously mentioned
thread will give you a lot of opinions but I don't recall these
particular thoughts: = The "dollar stores" sell a plastic tablecloth
with a cloth backing for just a few bucks. I use them as machine
covers with the cloth side toward the machine to wick away any
condensation. Shower curtains can also be found in this style. ==
Well oiled steel wool or Scotchbrite takes off the rust quickly. The
oil helps trap particulate and keeps it out of places you don't want
it. I like LPS for this but to each his own. == My shed is not
particularly well insulated and measures about 24' x 35'. Since that
fateful day, I have left one small ceramic heater running on
"medium" heat 24x7. So far, so good. You can't feel any difference
but I haven't seen any more condensation. WDSmith in soggy Oklahoma
= "john_folke" snip According to my Hygrometer the garage was at 90%
relative humidity at 60 degrees and there was condensate on some
parts of the lathe. To my dismay there was a uniform covering of red
rust on the flat belt pulleys top and bottom (15172) |
| Rust Removal
|
| I finally posted the pics. They are in Jerrys 13 on yhe
SouthBendLathePix group. (18700) |
| The part you
cleaned looks great! I know others have posted ways on how to do
what you have going on in that bucket, but I am wondering if you can
maybe walk us new guys through it in great detail. Please include
mixture contents and ratio, time allowed, temp of liquid, amps. Yours came out so nice, I just may do mine this
winter. Philip (18730) |
| It's pretty simple.
I started this late winter, or early spring in Michigan. The temps
were in the 30's most of the time. As long as the water doesn't
freeze, it seems to work. I used a 5 gal bucket to add about 4 gal
of water at a time. I added one scoop of arm hammer laundry
detergent to the plastic container before pouring in each bucket of
water. I clamped both clamps of a set of jumper cables to the
negative clamp of the battery charger. This gave me connections for
at least two parts. If the parts touch one another that works too. I
suspended a two foot piece of 1/2 inch re-bar a few inches under the
water. I made the positive connection to the re-bar outside the
water. If you put the positive cable clamp into the water, it will
eat away at the clamp. I have an older snap-on charger with 1,2,3
and high. I just set it on high. The amp gauge never moves, but
there is a spark if I connect the positive clamp while the charger
is on. Arcing the positive connection seems to be a good way to
check on the process. No arc--it isn't working. The last piece I did
was the door to the underdrive cabinet. After several days, no more
arc. The 1/2 inch rebar has grown to 1 1/2 inches with crud and
wasn't making a good connection with the water. I scrapped the crud
off. This is the first I noticed much deterioration in the re-bar.
It is now about 5/16 inches in diameter. Put the rod back in. It
started working again. Most parts seem to take a couple days to
clean. Taking the part out part way thru the process to scrape off
what has loosened p seems to help. Because I had other things to do,
some parts have stayed in for a week. It doesn't matter. That's
what's so great about this method. I can toss a part in and come
back when I have time. The process loosens 90 to 99 percent of the
paint. It just scrapes off with a putty knife. A scotch-brite pad, a
dentist pick, and a couple minutes with a sandblaster takes care of
the rest. I'd say I have an average of 20 to 30 minutes work after I
pull it out of the water. After that it's tape and paint. Oh yeah, I
wiped the parts down with rubbing alcohol to remove and oily or
soapy residue. The paint has gone on flawlessly. No sign of lifting
anywhere. I used a spray can of self-etching primer from a autopart
store. The paint is a spray can of rustoleum industrial paint. We
will see how it holds up. Application is nice. It seems hard. Time
will tell. The color is light machine gray. The first batch of
solution was used to clean two sets of parts, with a total running
time of about 10 days. I wasn't sure how long it was good for so I
dumped it and made a new batch. This batch has cleaned several parts
and had at least 30 days running time. I now looks like it's time
for fresh solution. If you let is set for a few days, it looks like
rusty water. After a few minutes of running, soap suds appear on the
top of the water, with rust over the anode (see pic). As time has
progressed, less suds are formed. I guess that is another way of
telling when it is time to change the solution. If you have any
other questions, just ask. As a fellow newbie, I have been reading
this newsgroup for over a year. It is nice to finally have something
that I can contribute. I will add a few more pics when I get the
next batch of parts painted. Waiting for warm weather so I can paint
parts in my garage (my wife complained about paint fumes coming from
the basement), my parts cleaning has gotten ahead of my parts
painting. (18740) |
| The precise amount
of powder added is not too important, but I usually use more than a
scoop per bucket- maybe 3 or 4. Be certain you are using WASHING
SODA It should be 100 percent soda. I have been told to use
stainless instead of iron as the sacrificial piece, but haven't yet
tried it. My dinky charger shows about an amp or less current and it
takes a day to get the crap off and completely de-rust the part.
Cleaned parts hold primer very well. This is a great technique that
I tried for the first time a few months ago and will never go back
to stripper again. Frank (18744) |
| Here is an
excellent writeup of the process.
http://users.eastlink.ca/~pspencer/nsaeta/electrolysis.html I
started out using cold rolled steel electrodes but switched over to
stainless steel. The stainless steel definitely works better, and it
is a simple matter to wipe it clean after each session. (I can buy
scrap stainless steel at work so it is pretty easy to come by.) I am
finding I can get two layers of paint completely off a part in 24
hours...One of them is the original South bend grey which is some
very tough paint. The paint falls off in sheets. I use a scoth brite
pad (or more time in the tank) for the stubborn stuff. I am using a
30amp battery charger on the 30 amp 12 volt setting. About 2 cups of
Arm Hammer Washing soda in a 32" by 22" by 8" plastic mixing tub.
The way I understand it, the more washing soda you use, the more
current you can push through the tank, and the quicker your part
comes out clean. Just be mindful of the battery charger's capacity.
I don't see any deflection on the battery charger needle either, but
I look for the Scrubbing Bubble action coming off the part. (Note
that the bubbles come off the part and are not obvious at the
electrodes! You'll want to check your polarity if the electrodes are
bubbling and not the part you are cleaning. Bad bongos if you get
the polarity reversed and ignore it for a few days...then you gotta
mess with E-bay. Better to pay attention and not go there!) One
thing to keep in mind is that the cleaning action is roughly
line-of-sight with the electrode. I just plan on complex parts
taking two or more days to get every nook-and-cranny rather than use
special electrodes. I turn the part each day. I still don't see a
need to do any sand blasting. You also need to make good electrical
contact with the part. That can be tough sometimes. The water gets
really scummy after a day, but I am not pre-cleaning anything. It
comes off the lathe and straight into the tank. I try to fish out
the big chunks of paint before starting a new cleaning session.
Watch out for electrical shorts and be sure you shut off and
disconnect the battery charger before grabbing parts out of the
tank! Cover your parts with paint or oil after taking them out of
the tank. They rust VERY quickly otherwise. I think electrolysis is
definitely THE way to go. Boiling the parts for 20 minutes in a TSP
solution works just as well but it really stinks too. Definitely
need to do the latter method out doors. On the boiling method, I've
found that the remaining paint gets hard again after the part cools.
I just boil the small stuff like the bolts and screws. I only have
one problem on the electrolysis method. What are people using as the
cleaning tank when the part gets too big? I am restoring a 13" with
a 6' bed, and I have the bed and lead screw coming up pretty soon. I
am planning to build a tank out of 3/4" plywood and plenty of 2x4's
and coat the inside with fiberglass available at the local
auto-parts store for patching auto bodies. Any better ideas out
there? I do have a Grob bandsaw on deck for the same treatment when
the lathe is done. A 7' by 4' by 2' tank would accommodate the Grob
and the electrodes nicely. I would have to turn the Grob a couple of
times to clean it completely, but that is no problem. Figured I
could move the electrodes in for the Lathe bed. Ron (18753) |
| How about a
stainless steel sink and lining it with plastic grating so the parts
rest on the insulator. Your electrode will then encircle the part
and clean almost all sides at once. Easy to drain also. JP (18754) |
| I also thought that
was a good idea, but the pot would be the anode and the anode is
sacrificial. Which means after a couple uses it would be full of
holes and kinda leaky. Also, I read another persons paper on rust
removal using electrolysis and he discourages using stainless
because when it breaks down some toxic metals (chromium I think) are
released and could become a hazard. I have also used lye as an
electrolyte and it works great, just need to be a little more
careful. I finally found a good supply of sodium carbonate so I use
that now. John. (18755) |
| Locally (NJ) Odd
lot sells SS Hamburg flippers for charcoal grills for $2. These are
about 6" by 4" and make excellent electrodes. One on each side of
the part speeds stripping. I was using a large piece of cast Iron. I
had trouble drawing over 3 amps. With just one SS flipper while
stripping the over arm bracket on a Burke #4 I just acquired the
current was 6 Amps. With the SS electrode It doesn't fall off with
time. Many years ago I worked at a small microwave equipment company
in Beverly MA. called Amerac. We had our own plating facility. The
initial cleaning process was an electrolytic tank . This is
basically the same process as stripping. The tank was (as I
remember) lined with metal ( I think it was zinc) so from zinc to a
SS Sink is an easy jump. It should work fine. I would suggest having
the edges insulated with wood or plastic. SS rods can be suspended
on the plastic or wood to support the parts. These can be
permanently connected to the charger. The plater Andy (long Greek
name ending in -olous which I do not remember) always made sure that
the part to be cleaned was connected to the negative potential
BEFORE immersing it in the solution. He said that failure to do so
would result in "smutting" up the part. The parts were suspended on
the SS rods which spanned the tank. They were connected to the rods
with SS wire hooks or wire wound around the part. I have been using
Iron wire. As long as the part puts weight on the wire connection is
made. I don't remember the solution but most of what we plated was
aluminum and these parts were cleaned and not attacked. Jim B(18756) |
| Or you could try a
rubber or plastic stock tank. They are about 2'x2' by 4 or 6'. Jim
(18757) |
| At the local feed
store they have plastic barrels. I cut them up one way for outdoor
watering buckets and the other direction for feed troughs. They are
cheap polyethylene barrels used to ship food products like drink
concentrates. That is another option for an insulated bucket. JP
(18758) |
| My 13 has a six
foot bed. I plan to build a 2 X 12 frame with a plywood bottom. I
plan to drape 3 or four layers of visqueen inside the box and then
carefully lower the bed in place. I plan to do the same for the chip
pan, using 2 X 4s for the sides.(18761) |
| How about a child's
wading pool? Joe R. (18764) |
| If I did this I
would buy an old sink at the junk yard and not use Mother's - a lot
of crap comes off and I suspect the ss would get ruined. This is a
neat idea if you can make certain that the piece doesn't short out
against the sink. If you were to do a lot of this, then it would be
worth setting up a junk sink on a 2x4 wooden stand, but otherwise a
plastic bucket is easy enough to dump. re charger: I use a 35
year-old 12 v charger and it works fine. All you need is a few
buck's worth of stuff and patience. Frank (18767) |
| Arm Hammer brand
washing soda (not washing powder) is sodium carbonate and you can
find it in most supermarkets or hardware stores. Frank (18768) |
| It'd get the rust
off the kid! ;-) Frank (18770) |
| It's best not to
use a stainless anode (the "sacrificial electrode"). Stainless has
Chrome in it. Part of the electrolysis byproduct is hexavalent
chromium, i.e., "the bad kind of chromium ion". It is pernicious,
and has potentially serious health implications for your liver; as
well as skin and other organs. Best not to create your own toxic
waste site by dumping in the soil or down the drain, either. Though
it seems that if you have already been using a stainless system, it
can be converted by throwing some acid (battery acid, H2SO4; or "muriatic"
acid, HCl) in, enough to make the bath acidic, and agitate
periodically. In an acidic solution with enough dirt and grunge in
the bottom, the hexavalent ions should be converted to a more stable
(less toxic) form. Best not to create the hazard in the first place,
though. Just use scrap iron or mild steel. Some people use re-bar
grids. As far as a container, I use a cut off fruit juice barrel.
smt (18772) |
| I found another
source for "washing soda" that's cheap. Soda ash...available at pool
supply stores to raise Ph of the water. It is anhydrous Na2CO3
(sodium carbonate), so not as much of it is required in solution. I
have a 10 gal. bucket out in the garage right now working and it
looks like it's doing a good job. Ray. (18784) |
| I
have seen a website where someone derusted an entire trailer. If I
remember correctly, the dug a hole, lined it with polyethylene, and
powered it with a arc welder. Ed (18790) |
| Funny you should
mention this. I have some wrought iron railings I want to do for my
Dad. I am thinking that the best (i.e., cheapest) container for this
would be one of those hard plastic kiddy pools. They are pretty much
disposable. I think they run around 8 bucks. Been awhile since my
kids were that small. That would surely fit a lathe bed. Any other
ideas. (18792) |
| I have lost the
formula for the rust removal process that uses a solution and a
battery charger. I thought for sure that it was in my SBL folder.
Would someone forward that to me. Dick (19701) |
| I believe it is one
teaspoon of laundry soda to a gallon of water. Scott. (19704) |
| I used one scoop
for every 4 gallons water. Also, I recently switched the anode from
a 18" piece of re-bar to a grid of re-bar I welded up. The amperage
went up significantly...from not moving the meter to 3 or 4 amps.
The bubbling action went from gentle to vigorous. My son was
cleaning some valve covers. They came out very nice. Can't wait to
dunk some more lathe parts. solution and a battery charger. (19707) |
| I just got done
cleaning up some wrought iron porch rails for my father. The
toughest part was making a big plywood box to hold them. Lined it
with 6 mil crawl space plastic to make it watertight. Since the
rails were long I had to put an electrode on each end of the box to
get effective cleaning. Left it go for about four days then took it
out, scraped clean and gave it another day or two. It really worked
well. (19708) |
| That's what I had
in mind for my lathe bed, chip pan and underdrive cabinet. Glad to
know it works. (19709) |
| Jerry, This Laundry
Soda, is it the same as Baking Soda? I am not to chemical savvy.
(19904) |
| Jerry, No. Baking
Soda is sodium bicarbonate, used in baking, mouth wash, etc. and a
wash booster. Laundry (washing) soda is calcium carbonate. See:
www.christianhomekeeper.com/washingsoda.html If you are
interested in rust cleaning:
http://www.rowand.net/Shop/Tech/Electrolysis.htm Actually
several caustic chemicals can be used for the electrolyte. RichD
(19905) |
| No, it is not
baking soda which will not work. Use washing soda (I bought a box of
Arm Hammer a year ago and still have 90% of it) I have been told it
is also used to adjust pH in swimming pools and if you need a lot,
pool supply companies sell it real cheap. But for small parts, the
Arm Hammer is cheap enough for me. The process works real well.
Frank (19908) |
| Rich- Close...
Washing soda is not calcium carbonate it is SODIUM carbonate. Also
used in aquariums. Jeff (19918) |
| Rust, oil and
metal |
| Interesting thread
here. It boarders on chemistry 101.It could be that the brasses
being discussed have a different amount of tin or other additive.
Also, there is the geography. Even the acid air question. Our
gunsmith member works with a steel that may be, hell IS subject to
sulfur-based powders if he works with old
propellants, (black-powder). This in no way is a denigration toward
any religion, trade, or political affiliations. :)If you live in
Fla. your fingers and the sea air make for havoc on most metals. I
have seen alum plate rust! To the point where I would control my
rust problem by actually incorporating it in metal protection. Jack
can probably explain the gentle art of browning better then I.
Another cheap fix may be cold bluing. I use to use Perma-Blue on my
tools, then oil them. When I make any tooling now, I wash them down
with any hot solvent like lacquer thinner or acetone. Then break out
the torch and flame blue. Once the piece is a color of purple or
blue, I stick it in some motor oil. I made a precision square 3
years ago and gave it this kind of finish. The surface treatment
plus a light coating of spindle oil, and it has never rusted. Us old
farts will use moth balls in our tool boxes to chase out damp. I
often wonder why most tool makers do not do this any more. Bluing is
a classy finish on anything that has iron in it. Perma blue is a
renewable finish. I'll ask Jack to give his view on the subject.
Ron (20889) |
| Perma Blue and
other instant blueing solutions or paste actually (or at least to my
understanding) put a thin coat of copper on the metal, then color
the copper wash. Also, different people have varying acid levels in
their body oils. So watch who handle your tools or guns. The old
style of blueing is actually a rust process, same with browning.
Rust actually creates a protective barrier to further oxidation. The
modern blueing or hot tank method is actually a blackening process
by chemicals. Some people have been using more modern finishes on
guns. I've been away from them for about 20 years. At that time they
were using various hi-tech finishes from the space program. I think
some of the manufactures use them on some models. Also, Parkerizing
is/was use from about WW2 on. It is a Phosphate finish. Applied
correctly it is durable. The European actually (or use to) paint
over it for further protection and durability. Tom (20891) |
| Oxide Bluing,
whether by the browning process, baking in nitrate, or hot tank
bluing is an oxidizing process, true, but the oxide produced is not
the same as red rust. Black iron oxide is magnetite. It is stable
and does protect against red oxide. Red rust is chemically active
and continues to take in oxygen from the air and combine it with
more iron. It feeds on itself, and always digs deep before spreading
wider. It makes roots. "Browning" by rusting and carding produces
red oxide and a small percentage of black oxide each time it is
allowed to rust. Then the red oxide is carded off, leaving the black
oxide. Multiple rustings and cardings eventually build up a black
oxide layer. Then the iron is said to be "Blued". Hot tank bluing is
achieved by boiling the iron in a supersaturated solution of sodium
hydroxide and sodium nitrate in water, adjusted in saturation so
that it boils at about 300øF. When the water boils it breaks down
the nitrate releasing O2 which combines with the iron in the
presence of the sodium hydroxide. Thus the iron is forced into the
black oxide state without going through the red, or rusting. This is
much easier and quicker than the rusting and carding method. Thought
I'd throw this simplified explanation in for what it is worth. Some
may find it explains a lot. Jack F (20899) |
| I found an
interesting archive when looking for way oil.
http://yarchive.net/metal/way_oil.html Ray (20911) |
| Ray, he lived not
far from here. An interesting fellow. RIP Keeping the ways clean is
most of the problem and good lube is important. Way oil works very
well and stays in place much longer than regular oils. It does not
matter what oil it is to a chip. It will stick. Removing the lathe
saddle occasionally and cleaning the ways helps. I added several
additional oil ports to my 9A saddle that puts oil on top of the
ways between the wipers. One Gits cup or oil zerk near each corner.
RichD (20913) |
| Removing rust
on ways |
| What is the best
way to remove some light surface rust? Had heavy rains here today
and walked out to the garage to work and found some light surface
rust on the ways. Rick (23990) |
| Penetrating oil and
a nylon bristle brush or Scotch-Brite pad (23993) |
| If its just from
the night before it should just wipe off with a cloth, if not the
scrubbing pads and oil work good. I had the same thing the other
morning on a machine I was going to move into my basement. The temps
over night went up to 60 and it was very foggy/damp. the machine was
like a giant beer can. I ended up moving the machine into my shop
yesterday, now its 20 out. (23999) |
| "Must for Rust"
rust remover works very well. Spray it on and rust becomes black
oxide and can be wiped off while still wet. It can be found in Ace
Hardware. I am not associated except as a user. Dann (24015) |
| 16" Spindle
rust removal |
| I just
realized after assembly, that I have some rust buildup in about the
worst possible place...on the nose of the spindle! There is a medium
buildup on the inside and outside of the nose which I believe is
preventing a test bar with MT5 taper from sitting true inside the
spindle. My question is, if I remove the spindle and dunk the nose
in a tank, will removing the rust electrolytically restore the
dimensions of the inside taper correctly? I know that any pits are
permanent, but will that get me closer to original spec? Or is
there a better way? Jim (25409) |
| Don't know about
the older lathes, but the inside taper of a 16" spindle nose is not
MT#5. It is a special SB taper. Maybe that's why it won't fit
properly. Arne buildup in about the worst buildup on the inside and
MT5 taper from sitting will removing the rust correctly? (25415) |
| Ran into that as
well on my 16". Its roughly MT5 in dimension but uses the taper per
foot of the MT3. Makes ebay purchases exciting as they list it for a
SB and call it an MT5 invariably. Mark (25419) |
| Mark, it's my
understanding that the taper of the spindle itself is a special SB
taper and that the *internal* taper of the spindle sleeve (adaptor)
is an MT#3. Is that correct? I don't have that sleeve but I do have
the sleeve for the 5C collets. Arne (25421) |
| I acquired both the
live center MT3 (ID) adapter and a 5c collet adapter. From what I
read elsewhere and using a vernier caliper on the od (rough measure)
it seemed to confirm that the ID taper in my 16" sb was roughly the
size of a MT5 but used the taper per foot of an MT3, thus making it
a special. Both items I acquired off of ebay and both listed as
having come from a SB but listed as MT5. I took a chance on both of
them and they both fit well, unlike the MT5 sleeve I have from
another pile of tooling. Mark (25422) |
| That's good
to know. I was afraid I was going to have some serious problems. So,
riddle me this then. I bought a MT5 to MT5 Extension (13" long) to
use as a test bar. Since this won't work, I have a fairly useless
piece of metal for me. Looks like it's time to figure out another
way to check headstock alignment.
Jim (25423) |
| I would contact
these folks they may be willing to regrind and or swap.
http://www.millermachineandfabrication.com/ Mark
(25427) |
| I find the finer
grades of 3M Synthetic Steel Wool effective for removing surface
rust from hard steel parts without affecting the underling
dimensions. I use the green grade 0 stuff (cos that's what the local
DIY emporium stocks), preferably a bit oily and a somewhat used. If
you have to use a new bit on something precise rub it up and down on
a gash bit of steel until the harsh "scratchiness" has gone. Don't
worry about wasting stuff, it lasts for ages once the initial bite
has gone. If you can get it 00 might be better. Used this on a lathe
of another breed with a very unattractive and distinctly red looking
internal taper, came back to a "decent needle twitch" on a tenths
thou indicator after being 20 thou + out as was. On my Heavy 10
wiping a taper with a very well used bit will make the difference
between a coupla tenths out and half a twitch of the indicator
needle. No normal person can keep their workshop clean to precision
tool-room standards so sometimes a bit more than the clean soft
paper wipe is needed. My H10 head-stock spindle is is about as good
as they come so I'm d***d if I'm gonna ruin it by being impatient
and careless. Clive (25429) |
| Unless there is
actual scale over a large area I doubt that you will find that
removing it with chemical rust remover will change any critical
dimensions. I definitely would not fool around with electrolytes. if
it has reached a point where there is a lot of actual scale nothing
will restore it. Use something like Naval Jelly very sparingly, wipe
it away carefully when done, and wipe the area with a cloth that has
been lightly sprayed with Lye oven cleaner. This is important to
passivate or (de-activate) the metal and it is necessary to prevent
immediate re-rusting. Then wipe it with a cloth wet with water to
remove all chemicals, and use your favorite rust preventive oil.
Jack F (25438) |
| Rust Chemistry |
| I've really enjoyed
the recent thread revisiting the electrolysis method of rust
removal, which got me to thinking about prevention. Now for the dumb
question! I know that deep down the reason for rust is oxidation,
but moisture seems to be the real catalyst. Is it as simple as water
is 1/3 oxygen while air is only 1/5? (25734) |
| Good thinking on
your part but unfortunately it isn't that simple. It is a chemical
reaction requiring both water and free oxygen. IIRC iron in either
pure dry oxygen or water with no dissolved oxygen won't rust.
Unfortunately it has been decades since college chem when I learned
this and don't remember any of the details. Gene (25737) |
