| Spindle assembly (Mar 27,
2001) |
9" Spindle Thread Question
(Sep 20, 2003) |
| Spindle Nose (Aug 15,
2001) |
Spindle adapter? (Nov 9,
2003) |
| What lathes use 1-7/8 X 8 tpi
spindle? (Nov 29, 2001) |
1'3/8" spindle (Nov 10,
2003) |
| 10L spindle replacement
(Oct 22, 2001) |
SB13 Spindle problems
(Dec 11, 2003) |
| Spindle play (Dec 9,
2001) |
Is my spindle in bad shape?
(Dec 17, 2003) |
| Spindle adjustment (Mar
25, 2002) |
How hard is it to turn your
spindle by hand? (Dec 22, 2003) |
| Spindle question (May 19,
2002) |
Heavy 10 spindles (Jan
12, 2004) |
| Instructions
on spindle assembly/adjustment (Jul 30, 2002) |
Spindle locking -- indexing
(Jan 20, 2004) |
| Quick spindle question
(Jul 31, 2002) |
Spindle help, please
(Jan 21, 2004) |
| Spindles (Apr 29, 2003) |
Spindle (Jan 29, 2004) |
| Spindle test arbor/bar?
(May 21, 2003) |
Ejecting from Camlock spindle
(Jan 30, 2004) |
| 2 1/8 - 6 spindle (May
27, 2003) |
Camlock Spindle Question?
(Jan 31, 2004) |
| Heavy 10 spindle wear question
(Jul 1, 2003) |
Spindle threads (Mar 16, 2004) |
| 9" spindle noise (help)
(Jul 6, 2003) |
Spindle Question (Aug 9, 2004) |
| How long will spindle gear live?
(Jul 29, 2003) |
SB9
spindle end play adjustment (Sep 2, 2004) |
| S.B spindle sizes (Aug
21, 2003) |
Spindle change out (Oct 20, 2004) |
| Odd size thread on the spindle
(Aug 23, 2003) |
Heavy 10 Spindle (Feb 8,
2005) |
| 9" Spindle diameters
(Aug 28, 2003) |
Cam lock spindle (Feb
19, 2005) |
| |
| Spindle assembly |
| I'm
preparing to re-assemble the spindle of my 10K as soon as the
capillary oilers come in. Reason for disassembly? I found there was
too much play in the bronze bearings (up to .004), and I was unable
to remove the shim packs due to somebody's over zealous paint job.
After trying everything I could think of to no avail, I decided to
just pull the whole thing apart for a good cleaning anyway. I'm glad
I did. I found that the spring for the rear oiler had been damaged,
and worst of all, the grease between the spindle and cone pulley had
dried into a nice, stiff, waxy substance. No amount of new grease
was going to get in there no matter what I did. I found the same to
be true of the back gear shaft. Anyway, the reason for this post is
to ask what grease to put in the rear thrust bearing. I know from
the files and the postings I've searched to use Teflon grease
between the spindle and cone pulley, as well as the back gear, (I've
down-loaded everything to do with lubricating a SBL from the files,)
but I've not found a mention as to what to pack the thrust bearing
with. Also, does anyone have any tips on installing the capillary
oilers? Should I soak them in the proper oil before installing them,
or put them in dry and just fill up the Gits oilers? Any other
pointers on re-installing the spindle would be helpful. Raymond (403) |
| I'm certainly no expert,
but I just finished reassembling the headstock on my 9" SB. As per
instructions I used the Teflon grease where indicated, and since I
got little feedback when I posed the question to the group about the
thrust bearing, I went ahead and packed the thrust bearing with the
same Teflon grease. I don't have a grease gun for the Teflon grease,
so I packed as much in as I could before assembling the back-gear or
cone pulley and then used a syringe to inject as much additional
grease as I could. I'll revisit that later. As the instructions say
when reinstalling the spindle, keep the felt oilers retracted by
using a piece of wire through the hole above oiler cap. I filled up
the oil cavities before installing the spindle (otherwise filling
would take longer), and I also put some oil on the bearing surfaces
(both spindle and HS) before installation. Paul R. (406) |
| Spindle Nose |
| I have just
purchased a South Bend lathe Catalog No. CLC8187AB and SN. 416
13362RKX16. It has a 2-1/4 x 8 TPI spindle nose. I need to know what
the spindle nose internal taper is on this model. Also, if anyone
knows of an online manual for this lathe I would greatly appreciate
being pointed to it. Chris
(1313) |
| South Bend Lathes
with the 2-1/4 x 8 tpi spindle have an internal taper of 0.6023" per
foot and the large end of the taper opening is 1.629". I cannot help
you with an on-line manual but South Bend Lathe published a very
good manual for beginner/novice machinist titled "How To Run A
Lathe." Lindsay Publications prints a reasonably priced copy of
their 1942 edition and originals can be had on eBay. Beware of eBay
sellers selling the Lindsay copy for a greatly inflated price. There
are other good lathe manuals out there too. Webb
(1336) |
| What lathes use
1-7/8 X 8 tpi spindle? |
| Can anyone
tell me what other manufacturer uses 1-7/8 X 8 tpi spindle threads
other than South Bend? (2280) |
| To
the best of my knowledge SB is the only maker to use this thread,
and as you likely know, on only some lathes. I know some used
equipment dealers and have had them on a lookout for nice 4 jaw for
my '29 SB13 or at least a backing plate for several years. They did
get me a faceplate, but I guess I'm just going to have to order a
few rough cast backing plates and have at it. Stan
(2294) |
| 10L spindle
replacement |
| Anyone out there
done a spindle removal replacement on a 10L? My 10L has a spindle
with a 1" ID bore (1-7/8 x 8 tpi-not 5C capable). and I have a used
spindle in good shape with the more typical and useful 1.375 ID bore
(2-1/4 x 8 tpi-5C Capable!!). The manual doesn't give specific
procedures for the R R. But does provide a procedure for adjustment
of the headstock bearings. Any tricks, comments, or experiences
anyone can relate to me before I make this change?
(1936) |
| I have
included the four pages from the parts manual that cover the
replacement of the spindle bearings. The procedure for replacing the
spindle is basically the same. There are some thing to consider when
replacing the spindle in a Heavy Ten (or any other lathe for that
matter). The spindle you replace may have slightly different journal
diameters, depending on the wear, manufacturing tolerance, etc. to
the one you replace it with. This means that the shim packs under
the bearing caps will probably need to be adjusted (either adding or
subtracting shims as necessary for proper clearance). The Heavy Ten
you have should have an "R" suffix in the unit code for your
headstock. This is the smaller spindle Heavy Ten (1-7/8" x 8 t.p.i.).
The "L" in 10L designates "Large Spindle" Heavy Ten (2-1/4" x 8
t.p.i.). The 10L is also listed for the other spindle types like
L00, and 4D-1 Camlock. If your "new" (or should I say replacement)
spindle already has its bearings with it, by all means use them.
Just make sure that everything is clean and free of burrs. While you
have the headstock apart, pull out your wicks and clean out the oil
reservoirs, oil cups and the wicks. Use clean, fresh spindle oil
when reassembling. I use Mobil Velocite #10 Spindle Oil. Spindle oil
you use should comply with South Bend Lathe's recommendations of SUS
100 @ 100Deg. F. or ISO 22. There are several makes to choose from
and can be had for about 10 buck a gallon (less shipping). This is
about a lifetime supply for the average "hobby" lathe. I hope this
information helps. - Blue Chips -
Webb Attachment: (image/jpeg) SBL_10H_Spindle1.jpg [not stored]
Attachment: (image/jpeg) SBL_10H_Spindle2.jpg [not stored]
Attachment: (image/jpeg) SBL_10H_Spindle3.jpg [not stored]
Attachment: (image/jpeg) SBL_10H_Spindle4.jpg [not stored] (1941) |
| Spindle play
|
| I was trying to
setup a bar in four jaw chuck today on the 9" south bend, when I
noticed that the entire spindle could lift maybe 6 thou in the (cast
iron) bearings. Not good. Discovered the bearing bolts were loose,
but tightening them up all the way did not help. Tried to remove the
spindle, but after removing the retaining nut no amount of whacking
on the small end with a 2x4 seems like it will make it slide out of
the bull gear. But I found I can get the shims out anyway. They are
a stack of a thick aluminum piece and a .016" brass piece (solid,
not laminated peel-away). I have thinner brass stock I can
substitute, but the shape is rather intricate. I sanded the aluminum
piece a tiny bit, and reassembled with the screws really tight. Now
the "ka-thunk" feel when I lift the chucked up bar is gone, but the
indicator shows the top of the chuck moving about 3 thou. What is
the clearance supposed to be on cast iron bearing (i.e., running
directly in the casting) lathes? Are the journals tapered, or
cylindrical? Also, the retaining nut just has a thin wavy washer
between it and the headstock casting. Should there be something else
to for it to actually run on? (The previous owner told me he pulled
the spindle to put on an endless belt, so it could have gotten put
back together wrong). Chris
(2375) |
| From the
"CE3458 Parts Manual, for 10", 13", 14 1/2", 16" 16/24 SB lathes",
the factory specs say that for a 75-lb. lift, the spindle play
should be between .0007" and .001" There are supposed to be stacked
laminations of .0015" on each side of both bearings. I once read
that the 9-inch SB lathes were essentially the same as the 10K
lathes, in which case these specs might apply to your lathe.
(2378) |
| According to a old bulletin I've got in my documentation collection,
the play (clearance) for cast iron bearings is .0010" to .0015".
Bronze bearings are .0007" to .0010" clearance. Webb
(2379) |
| The
brass pieces may have appeared solid, but I'm willing to bet that
they are laminated. I had my lathe apart several months ago and was
convinced the brass piece was solid until I gingerly began to pick
at an edge. In response to your other question, yes, if I understand
you correctly, the thin washer is all there is. Kim
(2381) |
| Spindle
adjustment |
| I have a 9 inch
model B. I have just finished making a collet closer for it, and in
the course of checking out the collet chuck, I noticed some play in
the spindle. What is the proper way to adjust the shims to get the
best fit? Dallas
(3741) |
| I don't have a
clue how to adjust the end play on the spindle. I just tighten the
nut on the end until I do not feel any play in the spindle. Probably
not the right way but it has worked so far. I am putting together my
new 9 in SB and I don't have a clue how to hold down the little
springy felt oilers underneath the spindle while I slip the spindle
in. Any one wanna offer a suggestion or two. Gerald
(3742) |
| Yes, a wire
inserted into the vent hole - that tiny little hole right above the
oiler caps. Depress the wick, insert the wire so it holds the wick
down its ready for the spindle. I think the end play is supposed to
be around 0.0005", adjusted with the nut. Rick K.
(3744) |
| I was not
clear enough on my question. I want to know the proper way to adjust
the shims that are clamped down when you tighten the bolt that
squeezes the bearing housing together. Not the axial play, but the
play perpendicular to the axis of the spindle. Assuming you were
starting from scratch and did not know how much shim should be in
the inner or outer bearing body. Dallas
(3748) |
| Dallas (and
others), You can learn a lot about your machine and save frustration
and possible damage by getting the "installation, operation,
maintenance, and parts manual" from South Bend Lathe,
www.southbendlathe.com , phone number 219-289-7771. I bought mine
for $35. Here (attached) is one of the four pages that describe
spindle removal and shim adjustment. I hope this answers your
question. Good luck, Jon Spear p.s. Note that the shims are
laminated, even though they look like solid thick pieces. They can
be separated by wedging a sharp knife on the edge. All of this info
may already exist in the archives of this group. (application/pdf)
SBL headstock shims.PDF [not stored]
(3752) |
| If you know or can find out the clearance you need
there is a material called "Plastigage" or Plastigauge" or something
similar. It is a plastic material about like a stiff clay and it is
laid in the bearing and the caps tightened down. Each strip of the
material is a certain width and you measure the new wider width on a
scale printed on the package this scale shows how many 1/1000
clearance is between the journal and bearing. We used to use it when
"hopping up" our old cars. John (3760) |
| Spindle
question |
| Can anyone suggest a good method for holding the spindle
while I try to disengage the faceplate ? Keeping it in the headstock
casting seems like it would provide the best cradle to use, maybe
even install the bearing caps to help secure it, but I'm afraid that
I'll damage one of the bearing surfaces. If it is ok to try this
using the casting then how can I keep the spindle from rotating ? I
don't have any chipped or broken teeth as it is and sure don't want
to try jamming the gears. How can I lock the spindle ? Dave (4257) |
| We held the
spindle via a large strap wrench and breaker bar on the cone pulley.
Ron (neighbor and owner of SB15) stood on the end of the strap
wrench (actually the pipe extending the handle), while I stood
across the garage and about 2 foot up in the air on the end of the
channel bolted to the backing plate holding onto a press upright to
avoid falling if the back plate gave way suddenly. Sam (my son) did
the tap with a hammer where we had shown him action and off it came
:-) The locking pin you engage when running in standard rather than
back gear mode can take an incredible amount of torque, just not
high shock loads. Locking the spindle via pulling some shims and
using the bearing halves as clamps is asking for damage as the
spindle will still find a way to turn, and any minor damage or
unevenness in the spindle will transfer to the bearing halves. I
image you could also make something like a barrel vise to clamp the
area that runs in the cone pulley bore, then clamp that is a large
bench vise, provided you have both a large enough vise and a solid
enough bench that 1200+ lbs of torque can be applied without
trashing the vise or dancing across the shop with the bench swinging
or flipping around! Isn't old machinery fun!? Stan
(4259) |
| This is
essentially what I did (with a few minor variations) to remove a
frozen 3-jaw from my lathe's headstock: (...and this is assuming you
have a 9" with the exposed step pulley in the headstock spindle)
Drill a small hole in the center pulley and tap it to accept a small
machine screw (10-32 should work). Make a wedge out of any hardwood
that is the width of the pulley. Screw a length of steel strapping
(or any thicker, flexible steel) onto the point of the wedge and
push the wedge into the space between the pulley and the base of the
spindle (under the pulley). Wrap the strapping around the back of
the pulley until it comes up to the hole you drilled. Drill a hole in
the strapping at that point and screw it to the pulley with the
matching screw. Now when you try to twist the faceplate off, the
pulley will pull the wedge into the headstock and lock itself. Now
you have a permanent spindle-locking mechanism you can use whenever
something decides to disagree with you as to which direction it
should be turning :-) Please remember to deburr the hole after
removing the screw! Otherwise the belt will show it (ask me how I
know this) :-) Bilal (4276) |
| Instructions
on spindle assembly/adjustment |
| Jason, There is a good
manual, called the CE3458 Parts Manual, which SBL printed for their
10-inch and larger lathes. I bought mine from them over a year ago,
before their most recent financial problems. I don't know whether it
still is available from Leblond or whoever is supplying South Bend
parts. There are 3 pages devoted to disassembling, reassembling, and
adjusting the headstock spindle. I will try to post the pages as an
attachment. Jon (5482) |
| As per the previous
posts started by Jason, I am including the 3 relevant pages from the
South Bend "CE3458 Installation, Operation, Maintenance Parts
Manual," which is for 10", 13", 14 1/2 ", 16", and 16/24 " lathes. I
think these should be helpful for anyone who wants to rebuild or
adjust their lathe... If Leblond (or whoever handles parts for SBL)
is selling the booklet now, I recommend it as a worthwhile purchase.
Jon (5483) |
| I forgot
to include the preceding page, which may be important for people,
who unlike Jason, have not yet taken apart their headstock spindle.
Sorry about that. Here is the last of the 4 pages: (application/pdf)
SBLspindle0of3.PDF [not stored]
(5484) |
| Jon You don't by
any chance have the blow up view with it disassembled? Showing the
parts? Clint (5487) |
| Jon, if these pages are typical of the rest
of the manual/ parts list, it looks like a "must have" for any South
Bend owner. Do you recall what it cost? Mario (5490) |
| I
don't know if the book is available from LeBlond, but it is listed
on the SB web site as $35.00.
http://www.southbendlathe.com I have a copy, and it
is well worth the price (even at 75% more than the Logan Manuals) Scott Logan (5492) |
| Just ordered
the Catalog No. CE3458 for my 13" SBL. New price is $40.00. The cost
of the 9" and the 10K is now $30.00 each. They are in stock and ship
the same day. Jim (5497) |
| Jim, Can a person
order on line for the 9" SB. Clint
(5498) |
| Quick spindle
question |
| How easy
should the spindle turn? I can turn it, but it seems that it's
taking just a little too much force to turn it. I'm wondering if I
should make some brass shims, but I saved the originals, and took
note of exactly where they go, and installed them properly, I wonder
if this could be handled by simply adjusting the brass pieces
inside, with their set screws? Jason
(5507) |
| There needs to
be .001" to .002" of slop in the spindle measured at the spindle
nose. This is your oil clearance as per south bend recommendations.
There needs to be shims under the bearing caps so that when the
screws are tight they can not be over tightened. This is a trial and
error deal once the original shims are removed or the bearings are
replaced. Kerry
(5560) |
| Spindles |
| I am "upgrading"
a Model 405Y. I have installed a new head stock. This went ok. I had
machine 5/16 off the back gears however. I just bought a new
spindle. The 405Y has a shorter spindle so the reversing gears do
not fully engage and the collet thread is 1 3/8-8. The spindle I got
is off a 10" and although it has the correct diameters and length
and a 7/8" bore (which is why I got it} the input side has a double
taper. There is the "normal" MT3 taper, deeper inside, but there is
also a larger taper at the front with a "dog" or pin. What is this
for? If I were to use 3C collets do I need a different collet
adapter? (My preference is to go for a BISON 5C collet chuck but
there is a 3C set up for $160 on e-bay tonight? Any insight. Jim (10597) |
| You may have
a spindle for the 10k or 10 "light" machine. The double-angle
bore is designed to accept SBL 6k collets, in addition to MT3
tooling. The "stud" engages a slot in the collet for driving. The
collet is retained by a drawbar. Suggest staying with the 6k.
Equipment is often available on ebay. The various 5C chucks are very
slow to use, unless air-driven. James (10601) |
| It does sound
like a 10K spindle. I just wanted to add that to my knowledge, you
can use the 3C set up in the 10K spindle. It does have the 3MT. 6K
collets do come up on E-Bay, but not as often as 3C's. They do have
a bit more capacity than a 3C. I think the 3C maxes out at 1/2 and
the 6K at 5/8th. Tom (10604) |
| While I am
familiar with the 3C setup, I know nothing about a 6K What is needed?
Is there a collet adapter or do the collets fit directly into the
spindle? What does the draw bar look like? Jim B (10605) |
| Jim, The 6K
collet fits directly into the spindle. The draw bar looks about the
same, but will have a larger OD tube and threads to match the
collets. You might check E-Bay for availability of the collets. I
would also think some of the dealers would carry them. Tom (10607) |
| I have a 10K
and it has 3mt taper in spindle and also the greater taper with the
anti-rotational pin which accepts 6K collets. Of course you also
need a collet closer for it to work. I have the 6K collets and hand
closer. Darrell
(11457) |
| Spindle test
arbor/bar? |
| With my lathe
education increasing, most of the books I have, and read, talk of
using a spindle test arbor to do the initial alignment of the
headstock spindle to the lathe bed and the
saddle/crossfeed/compound. As I tear down my 9" Junior and clean it,
the thought crossed my mind when I start to reassemble and align the
chunk of semi-steel; it would be a lot easier to do the initial
alignment/checkout with the test arbor already in hand. 1) Does any
company/anyone offer a MT3 test arbor with at least two concentric
rings about an inch in diameter about 10 to 12 inches apart? If not,
what would be the best steel to use without the expense of hardening
grinding? I'm thinking of getting a piece of drill rod and give part
of it to a local machine shop to just turn to form. Then after the
lathe is aligned, use the leftover piece for me to make a
between-centers test arbor for the tail stock alignment. 2) Which
would be better - water or oil hardening drill rod? Bob
(11306) |
| You could use
an aluminum piece if you made it one day and used it the next. The
problem with making a precision piece is not so much getting the
dimensions right the first time as it is making sure they stay that
way over time. Using a piece of 1018 it will grow and move over
time. I would actually get a piece of pre-hardened 4140 or P20. Those
would be he most stable for commonly available materials. Now the
outer thing is you can only align the tail stock to the head. The
head is fix and not adjustable unless you are scraping it in. So
IMHO you don't really need a test bar. BTW test bars are made with
precision centers in them so you would nee two very accurate dead
centers. This makes the test bar very adaptable. Kerry
(11312) |
| Easy, cheap,
dirty and it works is to take a 3/4" bar of any material you can
find even cold rolled is fine if it is not bent and is reasonably
straight. This bar will work for aligning the headstock as is with
no fancy work needed just a center drill pop in both ends. Now if
you also put a set screw flat on both ends or even the full length
for that matter you can fit 1 inch long sacrificial bushings that
you can take tailstock alignment cuts on and when it gets small
after a few years just change them out for new ones. It is the
measuring procedure and indicator that needs to be precise not the
bar. JWE (11318) |
| 2 1/8 - 6
spindle |
| I am helping a
friend work on a lathe he recently purchased that has a 2 1/8" dia.
x 6 tpi spindle. Has anyone ever heard of a spindle this size? We
need a source for a chuck mounting plate and faceplate with this
thread. John
(11503) |
| The spindle
is just larger than most of us home guys. call around to some
surplus machinery places to see what they have regarding faceplates.
for a chuck backing, you can buy blanks or machine from a solid if
you want. on the smaller machines, a lot of guys us cast iron
barbell weights. pretty cheap for raw stock. Dave (11504) |
| The SB
14.5/16.5" lathe with the small spindle bore (3/4" maximum capacity,
1 1/8" hole through the spindle) used a 2 1/4" x 6 spindle thread,
according to my literature. However I think this was a relatively
rare lathe. I expect that most folks buying that large a swing lathe
would pay a few extra bucks for the larger bore spindle supporting
5C collets (which used 2 3/8" x 6). Frank (11506) |
| Heavy 10
spindle wear question |
| I am in process of
checking out the spindle on my hvy 10. According to the SB info I
have you DI play lifting up on the spindle at 75lbs or so 12" from
the spindle. An email from the group I have saved indicates that
play up and play down should be totaled to determined if an
adjustment is needed. 1 to 2 thousands is the acceptable range.
Which info should I use? I have almost exactly 2 thousand play at
both ends using the up method of measurement.
(12400) |
| Load the
spindle up and down. I believe that the spec is .0007"-.0010",
measured at each end of the spindle. (12414) |
| I
removed the spindle after taking readings. I found brass shims under
each cap screw. The 4 SB shims were in place-- a real mess!! The
polished surfaces were scuffed but not too deep. Maybe a thou or so.
Is it possible to have the spindle polished? Based on the "shadetree"
shims I could lose 5 thou and still be too tight. Or should I look
for a new spindle or headstock. The gears are in great shape. This
lathe came out of a gypsum plant in San Antonio. It had been used
and abused. A target shooter/ gunsmith had the bed reground and
rebuilt the lathe. This guy was sharp. I can't believe he did this
to the headstock. I have owned the lathe for over 25 years and it
was running good. It had very little use the last 10 years and I am
going thru it before using again. Would appreciate advice.
(application/ms-tnef) winmail.dat [not stored]
(12416) |
| Spindle can
be 'micropolished' (superfinished) for ~$25 at any place which
rebuilds automotive crankshafts. This will change the spindle
bearing diameter by several tenths. If the spindle is really bad,
you can have it (re)hard-chromed and then re-ground to the original
diameters. The shim packs often have a thicker shim and one or two
thin shims stacked. The thin shims are there so that you can just
remove one (or more) to adjust for wear. (Shim thickness should be
within about .001" on each side of a bearing cap.) Making new shims
is a bit of a pain - no reason to do it if you can avoid it. If the
bearings are scored too much, you can get new parts from Leblond
($$$) or make some from standard 932/936 bronze bearings ($) or from
544 hollowbar ($$). Make sure that everything goes back together
clean. (12417) |
| I have a friend who owns shop that does crankshaft work for
racers. Just checked. I have about 8" of hollow bar in stock. Don't
remember the number but looks similar to the SB bearings.
(application/ms-tnef) winmail.dat [not stored]
(12422) |
| 9" spindle
noise (help) |
| I have a 9" SBL
60's vintage UMD. I purchased this lathe in excellent condition
(frosting still on the entire length of ways)4 years ago. it has
been well cared for by me however I have recently encountered a
strange clunking noise in what I think is coming from the rear
bearing area. With the belt slacked and the gear train disengaged, I
rotate the spindle and it seams as though there is something rolling
inside the flat pulley?? First the end play is within .0015" and
radial play is within .00075 at both ends of the spindle. Looking at
the exploded diagram from SB I see nothing that could be making this
sound. I also checked to see if the pulley might be rotating on the
shaft i.e. loose or damaged key way (no dice). I suspect that the
grease plug screw has never been removed. Where dose the grease go
and what dose it lubricate? Should you install a temp zerk fitting
to grease or just remove the screw and use a needle?? I'm afraid to
continue operating the lathe because I don't want to damage any
thing. When I'm running the lathe I can feel the vibration of this
clunking but not with every rotation of the shaft? However it is
rhythmic and in continuous equal intervals. Jeff K. (12532) |
| Jeff, I can't
answer your question about the noise, but I the spindle uses a
Teflon based grease just like the back gear. I'm not sure where you
would get the Roy Dean grease (other than through Leblond maybe),
but I use a Teflon grease made by Permatex/Loctite. However, the
threaded hole for the spindle is tapped for 1/4"-20, zerk fittings
(that size) are 1/4"-28. I made an adapter by taking a 1/4"-20 X
3/8" Allen head screw and through-drilled it. I drilled out the hex
to the size for a 1/4"-28 tap and tapped it. Put in a zerk fitting
and you're all set. Works like a champ (for the backgear also!). Dave
(12537) |
| After 4
years, ya oughta grease the thing!!! Another source of the noise
might be some crap on the change gears. Every once in a while I hear
something like that and then take off the gear cover, move the gears
by hand and, yep, they'll be a piece of swarf in one place on one
gear. Noise at that end of the spindle is hard to pinpoint - you can
use a piece of rubber or tygon tubing as a stethoscope - that's a
good way to localize a noise without getting your ear ripped off.
Frank
(12542) |
| If
you are not using back gear, the cone pulley turns with the spindle.
(the pin in the bull gear is pushed in: the pin locks the cone pulley
to the spindle). So unless someone got some tiny but noisy piece of
metal in the shallow oil grooves in the ID of the cone pulley, the
problem is in your spindle. Most likely, the ball thrust bearing has
failed. Remove the spindle and you'll probably find that one or more of
the balls or races has some spalling (flakes and chunks missing). The
endplay is still mostly OK b/c although there are a few bad spots, most
of the bearing still has the original clearances. But the bearing makes
noise when it's turning. And it will get worse. I don't know if thrust
bearing assemblies are available new , but used ones show up on eBay
occasionally (for a few bucks). Also, if you somehow end up with a
bearing which has a damaged ball but good races, you can replace a ball
or two if it comes to that. (12641) |
| It turns out that there
are two problems: First the cone pulley has about .006 of end play
between the bull gear and thrust bearing, Second the cone pulley
also has rotational play with the bull gear pin engaged. When I
remove the wire keeper for the pin, and push it all the way into the
pulley, it removes all the rotational play. I am assuming the bore in
the pulley, gear, and or pin is worn. My question is are these
conditions normal i.e. correct tolerances? It seems the end play in
the pulley creates the loudest clunking noise and the rotational
play is minor in comparison. Even with the back gear engaged, during
slow speed threading the pulley is apparently oscillating back and
forth clunking away every 4 or 5 rotations of the shaft. Jeff
(12651) |
| It sounds to me like the spindle is not pushed far enough back
through the bull gear. If you use the tailstock to force the spindle
back, it should take up the play between the cone and the bull gear.
This will probably take up your rotational play as well because your
bull gear pin will be more fully engaged. A block of wood and a
hammer can help, too. Once you have every thing seated properly in
the spindle, take up most of the end play with the split locking nut
on the back of the spindle leaving .001 to .002". Keep an eye
(finger actually) on the temperature of the headstock bearings after
the adjustment and give it more or les clearance accordingly.
Alternatively, do a search on recent postings about needle thrust
bearings. Glen (12653) |
| How long will
spindle gear live? |
| After about 2 years
of restoration work, I have recently started to use my SB 9" lathe.
I noticed some wear on the spindle gear and since I do not have a
new one to compare it to, I need some opinions from the group as to
how badly the spindle gear is worn. Pictures of the spindle gear are
at: *pictures no longer available* How much time does my lathe have
before I need to consider repairing or replacing the spindle. Has
anyone repaired a lathe spindle gear? John
(13036) |
| I have seen
some run a lot worse than that! I would run it and just keep an eye
open on eBay for another spindle that is better condition. Even
getting one on eBay will have some wear I do not have a clue of how
much a new one would cost, but probably pretty high. Clint
(13037) |
| I have
to agree with Clint I have seen wore a lot more than yours. From
what I can see in the pictures it looks like your gears are meshing
to deep. The top of the tooth on one gear should not bottom out in
the other gear. Duane
(13038) |
| S.B spindle
sizes |
| As I've
been digging for a while now here is what I have found on S.B
spindle nose diameters: 9 inch 10K = 1.5 x 8tpi. Bore 0.938. 10k =
2.25 x 8tpi. Bore 0.938 10 inch = 2.25 x 8tpi. Collet ?. Bore 1.629
13 inch = 1.875 x 8tpi. Collet ?. Bore 1.231 1.629. 14.5 inch = 2.25
x 6tpi. Collet 0.750. Bore 1.325. 14.5 inch = 2.375 x 6tpi. Collet
1.250. Bore 1.629. 16 inch = 2.375 x 6tpi. Bore 1.629. The printing
these are from is poor and so I will not totally guarantee accuracy
but it should be close enough to enable identification when
confronted with a less than detailed e-bay description or spotted at
a boot sale. Please feel free to jump on mistakes or omissions. Bob.
(13509) |
| Bob A few
corrections- The 10K is 1 1/2" x 8, just like the 9". The heavy 10"
and 13" story is identical. Both have a small bore option (1 7/8" x
8 thread, 1.231" bore, 2C collets, 11/16" Max. capacity) and a large
bore version (2 1/4" x 8 thread, 1.629" bore, 5C collets, 1" (or
really 1 1/16") Max. capacity). Most of what you have for the 14
1/2" looks right. The collets for the small bore are in fact 3/4"
max capacity, and they are 4C. The large bore uses 5C collets, with
the same max capacity as above (stated as 1" on early lathes, 1
1/16" on later lathes, but actually the same collet). The 16" lathe
collets are also 5C (1" or 1 1/16" max capacity). Scott Logan's web
page has (or had) most or all of this data, as well as similar data
for other brand lathes. SB put out a nice sheet #7324 with a lot of
this on it. Versions of How to Run a Lathe circa 1950 have it as
well in a table in the back. The collet types come from a mid-1950's
SB catalog. Frank
(13512) |
| Also posted in this group's files section. See
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/southbendlathe
then Files|Techinfo|sb_7324.gif Scott Logan
(13514) |
| Odd size
thread on the spindle |
| I acquired an OLD
South Bend lathe. Called South Bend and they said it was built in
1932. No parts or manuals either. It is in good shape as far as wear
goes. It is very dirty which is fixable. I got the skinner chuck off
and find that the headstock spindle threads appear to be about 1 3/8
by 12. I don't think I've ever heard of that thread size before on a
spindle. Anyone else ever heard of that size on a spindle? Bob
(13539) |
| A follow up on my original posting. I got the South Bend response
yesterday, and all they said was 1932. No month or day. When I first
measured the number of threads on the spindle I did it with a ruler
and I counted the threads per half inch and multiplied by two. I did
not do it right because today when I got to it with an actual thread
gage it was 10 threads to the inch. The major diameter is just a
hair under 1 3/8, so it is a 1 3/8 x 10. On the brass plate it says
8 in swing and the catalog number is 408 ZF. I do not think that it
was used much but it is very dirty. The ways have some kind of
rust/shellac?/caked filth???? on them. It scrapes off with an
aluminum piece. Does not appear to be scratching the ways them
selves. I've wondered about using some kind of polish/solvent/oven
cleaner? but nothing comes to mind.. I also have reread Dave
Ficken's (of Mermac Machinery) treatise on "In praise of clunkers"
Oh, the serial number is 51009. It is stamped in the usual spot on
the right front of the ways between the two screws that hold the
lead screw bearing. As an aside, I live in the Mojave desert. What
this means is that old machines do not suffer from rust as badly as
in a more humid area. Bob
(13542) |
| 1 3/8-10
was used on very early SB-9's (model 405) and, I believe SB juniors.
I have just converted my 405 SB-9 over to a 1 1/2-8 using a 10K
spindle. Jim B
(13550) |
| Jim, What did you have to do to the spindle? Did it fit
right in? Did you have to turn parts of it to a different size? If
so, was it hardened and if it was hardened what steps did this cause
you to take? Bob
(13556) |
| Jim (and Bob)
The 9" Juniors used 1 1/2" x 8, according to my copy of a 1931
catalog for them. My understanding from your earlier posts was that
your 405 was sort of an early predecessor of the 9" Workshop series,
which I think commenced in ~1935. Bob's lathe, circa 1932 (with a
serial number which matches that rough date) seems a bit at odds
with that view, or perhaps I misunderstood. I'm particularly
intrigued that no lathe in the 1934 SB catalog reprint has a 1 3/8"
x 10 spindle, given Jim's 1932 example and your ~1934(?) example
both have that size. Bob I did a quick search of the archives for: 1
3/8 10 spindle (without any grouping by quotes). I got a bunch of
unconnected matches, but also found other references to discussions
of lathes with 1 3/8" x 10 spindles, including a thread from Jim. I
just looked at a few of them. I expect there are other clues in the
archives. You also may do better (ar at least faster) with a
narrower search string. Frank
(13558) |
| For the 9" SB
the older 1 3/8-10 spindle appears to interchange with the newer 9"
or the 10K spindle in terms of the journal sizes. The overall length
of the spindle is longer than the 1 3/8-10. This extra length shows
up in longer threads for the backlash take up nut and and extra long
relief on the end. This extra length is needed for the use of a
"standard" draw bar and for the newer reversing gears. I should also
state that I swapped out the headstock. My 405 has a different
headstock than the newer lathes. The more modern, if you call
anything from the thirties modern, have a reversing assembly. The
405 used a stub gear next to the spindle. I never had one. I also
froze the spindle in the old head stock. Its lubrication system
consisted of narrow wicks running axially on the top of the
journals. I was missing part of one (didn't know it) and did not have
sufficient lubrication. Swapping out the headstock was the easiest
approach. Initially I used the old 1 3/8-10 spindle because all my
chucks fit it. Over a period of months I purchased, on E-BAY a new
backing plate, for my 4-jaw chuck (I have yet to face this one,) and
just a few weeks ago I got a 6-jaw Buck Tru-Set with a 1 1/2-8
backing plate. I had already found both a 9" spindle and a 10K
spindle. I did not like the 9". I has evidently been water sprayed
and the finish on journals was not up to par. Using the 10K will
allow me to use 6K collets and extend my collet range to 3/4", if I
ever find a 6K hand collet closer. The only thing which gave me a
problem was the Bull Gear key on the 10K spindle. This was the only
thing I didn't check. A little persuasion with a rubber mallet got
it to fit but I may have trouble getting it off and setting the
backlash is not easy. Sorry for being a bit long winded. I believe
you have a SB JR since you said the swing was 8". Now everything I
said works for the 9" lathe but I have little knowledge about the 8"
however If you want I can measure the diameters and lengths of the
9" spindle and then you can see if it would work. The spindles are
very hard. They cannot be turned. They could be ground, however. Jim
B. (13559) |
| My
understanding from your earlier posts was that your 405 was sort of
an early predecessor of the 9" Workshop series, which I think
commenced in ~1935. According to Rose my lathe was shipped 12/34 I
may be confusing the Junior with another SB lathe which has an 8"
swing. I called it a junior. It should read SB 8". We had a thread
some months ago from somebody who had just gotten an 8" also with a
1- 3/8-10 spindle and I promised him my old 3 jaw and backing plate
when I got a new one. This was a vintage 1929 lathe. I have since
deleted the e-mail but I could search the archives. Sorry about
confusing the 9" jr with the 8" Jim B. (13560) |
| Jim. I just looked at a few of them. I
expect there are other clues in the archives. You also may do better
(or at least faster) with a narrower search string. My lathe was
shipped 12/34 according to Rose. There was a thread, a few months
ago, from somebody who had just acquired a, vintage 1929, 8" lathe
with a 1 3/8-10. I confused this with the SB junior in my mind.
Sorry about that. Perhaps all the comments that say SB junior should
say SB-8" I had promised the author of this thread my old 3-jaw
chuck with the 1-3/8-10 backing plate. I have since deleted the
e-mail so perhaps he can respond. Jim B.
(13561) |
| The lathe spindle has 1-3/8 10
threads, not the 1-1/2 8 found on 9" lathes. Bob I guess this is why
I thought the 8" was a SB-jr. Can you help in clearing up for me,
what is and 8" lathe what is a SB- jr. I have been to Tony's UK web
page but all I remember was that the JR was a lighter built lathe. Jim
B. (13562) |
| Jim I don't
know enough about the older lathes to even try to be
confrontational. My only SB is an "almost new" 1957 Heavy 10. What
got me involved is that I have a photocopy of a small catalog (side
by side pages fit on 8 1/2" x 11") which is titled "New Model South
Bend 9" Junior Lathes", dated March 1931. It shows 7 different
versions, all standard change (with different drives, mountings,
etc). It says the 9" Junior is "...assembled from the units of the
9" Standard Change Gear Lathe we have been manufacturing for 25
years...". It lists a bunch of new features for the new 9" Junior on
the cover, but the spindle thread is not on that list. The lathe
specifications inside show the spindle thread as 1 1/2" x 8. I don't
have anything which lists or mentions the 8", which may be the
source of the spindle initially used in the early examples of the 9"
Workshop lathe of which yours is an example. This would fit with the
archive reference you quote. I think Bob said his is an 8" as well.
Alternately, I suppose from the wording on my catalog there could
have been an existing 9" Junior lathe (with 1 3/8" x 10 spindle),
and this catalog announces the "new" 9" Junior (although now the
dates don't explain Bob's later example with the small spindle
thread). Are there any other archive references to 9" (rather than
8") lathes with 1 3/8" x 10 threads which were built in the early
1930's (i.e. not other examples of your "pre-Workshop" 9")? Frank
(13563) |
| My
only SB is an "almost new" 1957 Heavy 10. What got me involved is
that I have a photocopy of a small catalog (side by side pages fit
on 8 1/2" x 11") which is titled "New Model South Bend 9" Junior
Lathes", Well I guess the best thing is id I make a drawing of the
9" spindle and see if Bob can match it to his lathe. I am still
unclear about the swings. Is the SB-JR an 8" , 8 1/2" or a 9" Jim B.
P.S. there have been some threads where people got very upset when
the things they "knew" were questioned. I want to avoid this since
it leads to little new knowledge or understanding.
(13565) |
| Jim, I have a book
here in which the author writes this as introduction: "I write this
book with some diffidence, for I have come from a time when I knew
little and thought I knew it all, to now, when I know a lot and
realize just how little that is".... Len (13567) |
| Frank, this
came up when I got my Nine Workshop, and I did some research. First
of all, without putting too fine a point on it, the SB website is
WRONG. The first Nine Workshop-not a Junior, but the same bed and
apron as the later Model C Nine, was introduced in 1934, not 1935 as
the SB website says. Tony Griffiths website now reflects this new
information. When I started trying to figure this out, I was getting
the same chorus you are: "It can't be a Nine, it must be a Junior,
it was built before 1935". I was lucky enough to find a 1934 dated
SB brochure giving all the details of this lathe, and it is
obviously a normal Nine, with some differences. The headstock looks
like a normal model C, but has a stick-on flanged gear for reversal,
a smaller crosslide, and a funny open tailstock. Don't worry, a
normal workshop HMD headstock is a straight fit, as is the tailstock
and apron and carriage. The 1/3 x 10 tpi spindle is really the
biggest difference, and I agree that there is a lot of stuff for 1/2
x 8 tpi that won't fit, but I think Jim B is the guy who put a new
spindle in his old headstock so its at least doable. When I first
started talking to Tony G-by the way, this guy really cares about
getting it right, he's a real resource for all of us, and a lot
better source of info than some unfortunately indifferently
maintained history section of a corporate website-I promised him I
would someday send him pictures of my 405 model headstock,
carriage/crosslide, and tailstock, compared to a standard Model C.
Now all I need is a free digital camera and lathe! If you have a
Model 5, 205, or 405, this is what you have. BTW Jim, I still want
your old 1 3/8 x 10 stuff when you want to get shed of it. Bill (13569) |
| Jim I seem to
recollect that you ended up spraywelding and turning down a lathe
spindle. Can you tell us (or me off list if you want) how that went
and if you were happy with it? No rush, I'm thinking of doing the
same someday if it went well. Bill (13570) |
| Jim Based on my
catalog copy I'm pretty sure they made a 9" Junior. From reports
like Bob's (who says his says 8" on the plate) it looks likely that
they also made an 8". Tony's site www.lathes.co.uk discusses both
a 9" Jr. and an 8" Jr., the latter emerging in the early 1930's.
BTW, Tony's site discusses the 1 3/8" x 10 spindle as well. I should
have looked there sooner. I suspect any references to an 8 1/2" may
not be real. The 9" Jr. has an actual swing of 9 1/4". If what they
called the 8" actually had a slightly larger swing it could have
gotten mis-identified as an 8 1/2". Bob Have a look at the above
site. Go to South Bend, then to "8 and 9 lathes". It has a picture
of what I think is your lathe, as well as a bunch of interesting
details. Frank
(13571) |
| 9" Spindle
diameters |
| I just bought what
is supposed to be a headstock casting for a 9" SB off eBay, as I
believe my old one to be worn. Now that I look at it, it seems to me
that the spindle bores are too small. Before I actually go to the
trouble of taking it all apart and measuring things, does anyone
have a spindle apart that they could measure up for me ? Alan (13658) |
| Model A, shipped in
1952: Large end at the threaded chuck side: 1.808 Gear side, (Left)
: 1.370 (13673) |
| 9" Spindle
Thread Question |
| Recently I came
across a ridiculously (under) priced 1-1/2x8 UNC tap at a flea
market, brand new, still had the thread-protecting goop the
factory dips them in. Oh, the things I dreamed of using it
for OK, reality check: the first thing I did was
to be a nose-thread protector for my 9" SB. I bored the hole to
1.375, which according to my chart is for 90% threads. The tap cuts
beautifully however, the nose-thread protector only
screws on 2-1/2 threads! "Ummm," sez I, "must need to open it up a
little." So, I proceed to start over from scratch, opening the bore
to 1.390. Same results; threads on 2-1/2 threads and that's it. Is
that spindle thread a *tapered* thread, or what?
Johnny
(14084) |
| Check the O.D.
of the tap it could be a # 5 fit tap( kind of a shrink fit) or it
could be that it is not new, it could have ground a lot losing its
O.D. size. Rick (14085) |
| Your protector is a
thru hole, right, meaning the tap passed fully thru it to where the
full depth threads are cut. That is, the protector isn't blind ended
to where the partial threads on the lead only cut partial threads.
That is why bottoming taps are made, but even they have a short
section of partial thread lead. Rick
(14086) |
| The full data-line on the tap reads
1-1/2-8UNC-5. I understand my situation now, but am somewhat
chagrined. Still, I'm only out US$3.00. Better than a lot of my
"learning experiences", LOL. Johnny
(14087) |
| Would the
trick of jamming one of the flutes full of toothpicks work like it
does with a reamer? John
(14109) |
| Dunno, John,
but it's worth a try. If I can get a little shop-time this week,
I'll report on it. Johnny
(14111) |
| When I first
got my South Bend I desperately needed to make a couple of
workplates in order to make vacuum chucks. I took the jaws out of my
4-jaw and used that flat surface to mount a piece of aluminum that I
bandsawed, with spray adhesive. I turned the OD to clean it up, then
bored a hole in the center. I reground a boring bar into a threading
tool and cut the 1-1/2-8 internal thread. Yes, it was a struggle,
but it was a great learning experience, and while it took me longer
by far than a "Real Machinist" would take, it was a real
confidence-building exercise. It came out fine and has been in use
for years. With the spray adhesive, the work hangs out over the edge
a few inches, so you had to take it easy and not push it when
cleaning the OD. Once the adhesive set, though, it really held. To
remove it from the surface of the 4-jaw chuck, I warmed it with a
propane torch and the aluminum plate came right off. Then I was able
to simply screw it onto the lathe spindle nose and finish the job.
Take a look: http://www.gearloose.com
(14112) |
| Spindle
adapter? |
| Has anyone seen or
thought of making an adapter so 2 1/4 x 8 faceplates, chucks etc
could be used on a 9 or 10k? Does anyone see any issues with using
something like this?
(14854) |
| Don't see why it wouldn't work, as long as you hold your
tolerances close to avoid excessive runout. Were you looking at
using an internal external threaded bushing or making a bolt on
adaptor? Let me know how your project turns out. BK
(14856) |
| There is no
reason it wont work as long as you hold tolerances closely the more
pieces you introduce into the equation the more chance you have for
error and accumulation of errors it would be easier to take off the
backplate and install a backplate with the proper size thread.
(14860) |
| My
reply was aimed at the faceplates and not the chucks. Of course if
you can change the mounting plates, such as for a chuck, that would
be the preferable way to do so, however with most faceplates you
don't have the luxury of a changeable mounting plate, and with some of
the prices a 7"-8.5"dia. 1-1/2"x 8 threaded faceplates are bringing
on eBay while the same size faceplate for a larger mount goes for
1/4 to 1/2 the price of the 9" Sb mount, I can understand someone
trying to save some money so they can support their hobby. Of course
if money is no object, then by all means shell out the $$$$$ for the
right faceplate. But isn't a lot of Hobby Metalworking about making
things fit with adaptors and such, and being able to make said
adaptors your self, which in turn gives a feeling of pride and
self-esteem while also letting you expand the capabilities of your
machines? BK (14861) |
| That's
is right. I'm in the same boat. Can't find any used D1-4 camlock chucks
or faceplates...nothing. I did find a Cushman adaptor plate without the
pins and I think I could use it to make a dog drive plate. I was also
wondering if I could get a threaded faceplate and machine the back to
fit another adaptor? They have a lot of those Cushman adaptors by the
looks of it. I guess I'll have to go all out and get a new chuck. Mike
(14885) |
| 1'3/8" spindle
|
| I undoubtedly have
one of the oldest sb lathes. When I bought it, it had the 4 jaw
chuck mounted, and a 3 jaw in the box with all the other stuff. When
I tried to change chucks, I found that the hole in the backing plate
was too big. I thought the backing plate was screwed up. So, I
ordered a 5" x 1-1/2" semi-finished backing plate from Wholesale
Tool. Should have measured instead of assuming. Turns out, I have a
1-3/8" spindle. Now, I'm stuck with a new 1-1/2" and still can't
mount my 3 jaw. Alex
(14907) |
| Make one. Enco has
rough backing plates (Bison) with a .98" center hole, 6" OD for
about $42. Wholesale tool may have the same thing. JP (14910) |
| If this is a
9" workshop lathe you can change out the spindle. They show up on
E-Bay for about $ 30 to 50. Take a good look at the drive gear in
the photo. Jim B. (14912) |
| SB13 Spindle
problems |
| I have a 1937 SB13 that I
acquired last March and am finally getting around to whipping into
shape. Inspecting the headstock revealed spindle and bearing
problems. Both are heavily scored. With the shims removed, you can
pull up an down on the spindle and see it move. I am guessing at
least .020 of play. The bearings are the two piece thick bronze
type. They resemble the rear main bearing in a small block Chevy. I
bought a spindle off of eBay. Nice piece. However, the front journal
is .250 larger than the original. That is both good and bad. If I
can bore/hone the front bearing to fit the new shaft, it would
remove all the scoring and leave me with basically a new bearing. It
would also remove about half of the oiling groove. My other option
would be to locate a new front bearing and turn the shaft to the
dimension of the original unit. Since this lathe and a drill press
are my only tools, I would have to hire someone to do this. As for
boring/honing the front bearing, I have been looking at a small
cylinder hone where the stones come out square from the center
shaft, via a micrometer style adjustment. The stones are longer than
the bearing surface, so wallering out the ends of the bearing
shouldn't be a problem. I thought I would bolt it to my drill press
table, squaring it with the quill, as close as is possible. There is
a pivot style joint on the hone, so that should make up for any
slight errors in locating the headstock on the table. The rear
bearing is another story. The new shaft is the same size as the
original, and may have a few thousandths of wear. So honing is out,
unless I have the top cap and bearing milled first, or put a few
thousandths shim stock under each bearing shell. Another problem is
that I have not been able to locate a micrometer adjustable hone
that goes that small. LeBlonde says they have the bearings. They
want 370 for one set and 380 for the other. I have not been able to
get a parts person to physically verify that they are the right
design. The parts diagram they faxed me, shows a one piece split
shell style. Anybody have any suggestions or comments. Anybody have
any bearings. I contacted the guy that pulled all that stuff from
the South Bend plant a little while ago. He doesn't have any bronze
bearings. He said another person scrapped them all. Sorry for the
length of this, but I have been wrestling with this problem for a
couple of months and am just not comfortable with anything (other
than the new spindle) that I have come up with so far.
Jerry (15517) |
| Jerry, Did
you try some of the used machinery dealers? Give them a try first.
They are usually at least a third the price of LeBlond/SB. Sobel,
Plaza and Meridian all have excellent reputations. I have been happy
with Plaza and Meridian. I haven't ordered anything from Sobel, but
wouldn't hesitate to. From the pictures sent on a previous post, it
looks like your spindle might just need a polishing. You might ask
to see if there are any solutions to eat away the brass and lead,
and leave the metal. I know some of the bore cleaners for rifles
claim to do this, but you would probably need a stronger solution.
At least this way, you could determine what condition your spindle
is in. Tom (15521) |
| Jerry- South
Bend did not start using the split bearings until 1943. If your
lathe has the original headstock then the bearings that LeBlond
would like to sell you will not fit. I can give you all the
information that I have on your lathe if you can provide me with the
catalog number of the lathe. Rose (15526) |
| One bore
cleaning product "Sweets 7.72" is a popular brand, does a real good
job on copper fouling and eats up a bronze bore brushes. I'm not up
to speed on solutions for lead fouling, might want to look up what
the muzzle loaders use these days. Another method for heavy fouling
is reverse electroplating. A cheap method that works real well for
heavy lead fouling is lots of elbow grease with bronze brushes,
while totally immersed in a paint thinner solvent or "Kroil" brand
penetrating oil. Jeff
(15528) |
| Rose, Nice to
hear from you. The catalog number is 77333. LeBlonde faxed me a copy
of the machine card. The bed has a Reynolds Machinery tag on it,
which matches the information on the card. The headstock is stamped
H32. The oilers are in the middle of the bearing caps. The person I
got the lathe from, said his grandfather had it "re-done" in the
early 60's. Any idea what I am dealing with? (15550) |
| Jerry- Please
fax me the copy of the lathe serial card. My fax number is
574-236-1210. Rose (15554) |
| Is my spindle
in bad shape? |
| I took 2 pics of my
spindle, the large bearing surface and the small one. It does not
look as nice as it felt when I rotated it on the lathe. *pictures no longer available* The corresponding
surfaces in the headstock feel rough to the hand where you see the
scuffing on the spindle, but smooth where its smooth on the spindle.
(15741) |
| Good pix, to be
honest, I have seen a lot worse in transmissions, etc., I think I
would run it. just adjust per the instructions, once you have it
adjusted and all, then see if you have any play, if it is in spec.
go on and turn some metal This is of course unless you are loaded
with money and ready to replace it and the bushings for the heck of
it, but I look at it this way, if the run out is in spec. you really
have nothing to loose, if and when it gets bad, replace them at that
time. Clint
(15742) |
| I'm trying to
find the so called shims, my runout is .002. Man, just bought this
lathe. There are no bushings, its the cast iron bearings, integral
of the headstock. etc.
(15744) |
| Shims are
under the caps at the mating surface, they have a habit of sticking
to the caps or headstock. They are laminated, remove the laminations
evenly (side to side). JP (15745) |
| Under the
caps, where the casting is slitted right? I Cant stick an exacto
blade in there, I am worried that there are no shims, and my
headstock has had it. People talk as if they are easy to take out,
is that the case? The slit is so small, I cant tell what's there.
(15747) |
| How hard is it
to turn your spindle by hand? |
| My restoration
project continues, and I'm now up against something "unusual". When
trying to turn my spindle by hand, it's pretty stiff, at least for
the first turn or so. It then loosens up, but stays quite stiff.
It's smooth, but stiff. When I put an ammeter on the motor, I find
about 120 watts, or about 1/8 HP being drawn just to turn the
spindle. This seems high to me, but I have no experience with plain
bearings, and so have no idea if this is normal or not! Alan
(15874) |
| How much
power does the motor use when it is not driving anything. This will
not be zero. Check that first. Then look at the difference with the
spindle on. The difference is the spindle load. Jim B. (15875) |
| I'm not
sure if you're talking about resistance with or without the motor
drive belt engaged. If it's with the belt engaged then obviously
gearing will play a role in how difficult it is to turn. When the
belt's loose, my '33 SB 11" spindle turns easily with light pressure
- my finger does it easily. Peter
(15876) |
| Bigger the chuck, easier it will
be to move with your finger. I've been wondering the same exact
thing, I can make my spindle turn by itself, no chuck, just grabbing
threads with fingers and making it rotate, but it too is stiff,
stiff like a magnetic drag on a fishing reel. Stiff but smooth. I
guess this is why they are called friction bearings? At least by the
railroad anyhow. (15877) |
| Do you have
bearing expanders? If so the screws may be loose causing the
bearings to close up on the spindle adding resistance. The screws on
the bearing expanders should be moderately tight. Restoration
project - did you coat the spindle and bearing with oil when putting
it back together? Do you have a upper felt wiper in the bearing? If
so did it turn or move from its seat during reassembly? Is the thrust
bearing in adjustment and lubed? JP (15878) |
| Just a side
question here. What is used to lubricate the thrust bearing ?
Mike
(15881) |
| Alan I just
finished cutting a 1/4" thread while turning the spindle by hand. My
lathe is a horizontal drive and I took off the motor belt. I did not
have the lathe in back gear. I stuck my finger against the one of
the spokes in the big pulley and spun it by hand. The force wasn't
enough to wear any skin off my finger but it was close. I was
probably taking a 0.005" cut at the time. John
(15883) |
| OIL (15906) |
| I say that
you should try and put sum shims under your bearing cap and and see
if this will free it up. start with .2 ths'. and see how that goes
for you. apply the oil in the spindle at each use. take a cut and see
if that does not loosen up sum. It is good to have a tight head
stock, But you do want to be able to turn by hand once it is placed
in the neutral positions. just don't try to over cut your cuts and
you should get really good result. fred (16067) |
| I was just concerned with spindle turning resistance on
my 16 inch South Bend. My problem is chattering of the bearings when
a rough cut is attempted. I wanted to have a baseline measurement of
some sort before I removed any shims from the bearings. With a 3-jaw
chuck installed, I chucked up a quarter-inch drive socket and used a
torque wrench to determine the turning force required with the belt
tension removed and the feed gears disengaged. I came up with 66-70
inch- pounds of breakaway torque, and I maintained that as I removed
shims. Interestingly, the torque was not the same in both
directions. I still have a chatter problem even though it has
improved some. The bearing surfaces at the chuck end of the spindle
are not pretty, but I think the problem now lies with the gear end.
There are no peelable shims there, only single shims of .032 inch
thickness. They look home made. Anyway, maybe the torque check idea
will work for you too. It's not the most scientific thing, I know,
but it's something that anybody can do. Maybe some of the other
members of the group could check and publish their spindle torque
and establish a data base we can all use. If anyone out there can
give an informed lesson by e-mail on the best way to approach wear
problems on plain-bearing lathe spindles, I'd sure appreciate your
time. Jack
(16087) |
| Heavy 10
spindles |
| What is the
advantage of a D1-4 spindle over the threaded spindle? How about
disadvantages of the D1-4? Which is more desirable to have?
(16473) |
| I would think
the main disadvantage of the threaded spindle is the tendency of the
chuck to unscrew when cutting in reverse, fast braking, or fast
direction change from forward to reverse. I believe most modern
spindles have some sort of key or pins (like the D1) to prevent
this. Jeff
(16477) |
| That's true
but cutting in reverse isn't all that common and shifting from fast
to slow is usually done with stoping and moving belts. If you have
gears instead of belts then you still have to stop to shift speed.
Forward to reverse can be done with a 3 phase motor but with a
single phase motor it kills the starting cap real fast. For an older
lathe there seems to be more threaded chucks around. The cam lock is
nice, is a more modern chuck and costs more. It's much easier to
change a big cam lock chuck than a threaded one so it is good for
production in a small shop. JP (16478) |
| I have the
D1-4 cam on my 10L. I looked for months trying to find a used chuck.
Good luck ! I got a new Bison for mine. I still want a face plate
and dog drive plate and of course a 4 jaw. So that is one
disadvantage I would say. It requires a different spindle adaptor
for the spindle to MT-2 than the threaded one too. I did get that
from LeBlonde. I'm wondering if the collect attachments are
different too. You can get D1-4 collet chucks though. Mike
(16487) |
| Spindle
locking -- indexing |
| I was
wondering what is the correct way to lock the spindle head if I
needed to do that? I also purchased a 5C collet set and closer from a
member, Thanks a lot Ron. I got a great deal and a lot of advice to go
with it. That's worth a lot to me too. My project to drill, tap and
install new oil cups on the apron of my heavy ten went very well and
looks great. I wanted to do something I could do sitting down (bad
bout with the arthritis) so took my tailstock off and polished all
the bright metal parts. I will probably have to work hard to keep it
that way now but it looks better and I learned how it was put
together:-). I hope to actually make something soon ha ha. Tom
(16657) |
| Tom, The
southbend literature shows holding the belt (overhead belt) by hand
but I find this a little cumbersome. I use a strap wrench on the
belt sheave and have the front pin engaged in the bull gear and the
backgear out. You can put a piece of wood in the chuck and have it
rest against the bed to lock the chuck in place and use a strap
wrench on the spindle or use 2 strap wrenches with one around the
chuck. Some people engage the backgear and the front pin at the same
time but you run the risk of damaging the gears. Someone just did
that and apparently only broke a woodruff key. That method is not
recommended. JP
(16660) |
| JP, I
was thinking along the lines of some operation that required the
spindle to be locked solid. Maybe crossdrilling a part. It wouldn't
put strain on the spindle as in trying to turn it but you don't want
the work to move. Could I then use the pin and backgear method? I
wouldn't want to turn against it as happened to that gentleman with
the stuck chuck. I used your idea with the strap wrench to remove my
heavy 10"4 jaw and it worked like a charm. In woodworking it is a
good lathe that can lock the spindle, just wanted to know if it was
possible with my SB. I think I have my answer now. Tom
(16671) |
| Tom, You want
to use the lathe spindle as an indexer? The Bull gear on the heavy 10 is 14DP, not commonly
available today. MSC has import cutters for 14DP so you can make a
mating gear. JP (16674) |
| JP, I must be getting real silly here. The 10"chuck has a built in
indexer in the back plate!. The machinist that was the previous owner
made it. The locking pin is mounted to the top of the inboard
spindle bearing cap and uses the same bolts. It is supposed to work
real slick. I didn't even think about it. Thanks for the kind remarks
about my observatory. If anyone wants more info about it just ask. The
going rate for one of these is in the $3000 range and mine cost me
$650.It certainly made observing a lot nicer especially with my
stupid health problems. Tom
(16677) |
| Tom, The bull
gear is 72 tooth on the Heavy 10, one tooth every 5 degrees. If you
want a simple indexer you can make up a bracket that mounts in place
of the bull gear cover. You can then attach a spring loaded pin to
lock into a tooth of a the gear. Pull the front pin out on the bill
gear to disconnect it from the sheave and keep the back gear
disengaged. If you accidentally start the motor then it will only spin
the sheave and nothing else. Put a big ugly red knob on the pin so
you don't forget to remove it to run the lathe normally. Of course,
the indexer on Chris' site is much nicer. JP
(16678) |
| Spindle help,
please |
| I can't seem to get
into the procedure for adjusting the spindle bearings on a 50's era
9A. My lathe
is apart and I don't want to "wing' this.
(16701) |
| There's not
much to it, you put a dial indicator on the top of the spindle, put
a bar into the spindle, and torque it upwards to see how much runout
you have. Now my lathe is a 1941 model C, so I just have to adjust
some shims to get my play right. I think yours might use bronze
bushings, so I cant help you there. These things are built very
well, I wouldn't be worried so much about hurting them. Will be good
anyhow to remove the spindle and make sure your felts are in good
shape, I need to replace both of mine. (16702) |
| There is a
procedure for alignment on the Heavy 10 in the sister group files
section. There are similarities so it may help clarify things for
you. JP (16704) |
| The files are
currently in migration to the main site. Did you search the archive?
How about searching in the messages section for articles with
keyword spindle bearing bearing adjustment you have to select the
'previous' and 'next' links to go through batches of messages, its
not all inclusive. dennis
(16705) |
| Here
comes another stupid question. What do you mean by "sister group" JP?
I've heard the term before and didn't get the connection then
either. Tom
(16706) |
| SouthBendLathePix
is the sister group or whatever you want to call it. I made a
mistake with the location, it is here
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/southbendlathe/files/Techinfo/Bearing_Adjustment/ I have seen more info on the 9" but I can't find it now.
Best to look through the files of both groups and maybe follow some
links as well. JP (16707) |
| Perhaps I am
asking my question in the wrong manner. Thanks for the responses but
I still need help. My spindle was 0.004" out with the lift test so I
removed it. All parts are in very good shape so I see nothing that
needs to be replaced. The current shim packs front and rear are
approx 0.055" for what that's worth. I would like to have a detailed
procedure that walks me through the assembly/adjustment process. eg,
can you do the shim removal thing with only the spindle installed,
that is without the oilers, pulley, bull gear etc. How and when do
you install/adjust the expanders in front and rear bearings. I have
searched the entire message pool using keywords with no luck. eg in
Message #843 the file listed there is not stored and can not be
accessed. There is nothing in either "files" section that I can find
Is the info available to me here? If so how do I get it? If not,
does anyone know where it is available.
(16714) |
| Did you look
at these pages?
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/southbendlathe/files/Techinfo/Bearing_Adjustment/
that was the article I was remembering. Those attachments are gone
since yahoo no longer archives the attachments. I will look to see
if they are around somewhere. Maybe webb can repost? dennis
(16716) |
| Here's the procedure for the Heavy 10, yours might be the same. First mic
your shim packs, each SIDE of a bearing should be the same thickness
to start, if not remove a leaf from the largest shim pac. The front
and rear are SEPARATE and INDEPENDENT! I use an razor blade and a
magnifier because the brass leafs are .002". Lightly oil the
spindle. Repeat from here as many times as needed! Do 1 bearing at a
time. 1. Put the spindle back together exactly as it came apart.
This means with the shim packs in their original locations. With the
bearing caps tight and the screws in the bearing expanders
moderately tight do another lift test on both ends of the spindle.
2. If the test shows more than .0015 then open 1 bearing cap with
the expander screws removed and remove 1 leaf from 1 side. Put it
back together and go to step 1. If you have to repeat this, then you
remove a leaf from the other side the next time. Do the front
bearing first and then the back bearing. The end play take up may be
a threaded locking hand nut, bring it up until the spindle begin to
show resistance turning it by hand and then back it off about 1/2"
at the circumference. This is a repetitive task and should be done
slowly, 1 shim at a time. Save the removed shims and note their
locations because you may have to reinstall one if you go too far.
Don't assume that the procedure is linear, don't remove 4 leafs to
remove .004 play, do 1 leaf at a time and keep the end caps balanced
side to side within 1 leaf thickness. JP (16717) |
|
Spindle |
| I have a D1 cam
lock headstock spindle on my 13"SBL, can anyone tell me how to
remove the system so I can see my threads and put a screw on 7 1/2
chuck or a face plate. Leeg2543
(16909) |
| You can't.
The D1 spindle is different than a threaded spindle, and while you
might be able to replace the entire spindle, there is no
(good/safe/proper) way to install a threaded chuck or face plate. To
be honest, the D1 spindle is superior to the threaded spindle
anyway. Scott S. Logan (16910) |
| I think the
D1 is integral to the spindle, so you would need a face plate with
the D1 lugs on it. Tom (16911) |
| Ejecting from
Camlock spindle |
| I've played with
South Bend lathes for 50 years, but all had threaded spindles. I
recently bought a 10" with a D1-4 camloc spindle. How does one eject
the collet closer from this spindle? There is no jacking nut as with
the threaded spindle. There is about 1/8" gap between the collet
adapter flange and the nose of the Camloc. I don't like hitting the
rear of the adapter with a drift, as this is right at a precision
diameter in the adapter, and will, in time, damage it. Harold
(16935) |
| From the
back. I made a wooden round bar that just fits thru the spindle
and tap it out.
(16936) |
| Dave, you must not use your collets as "vigorously" as I do.
"Just tap it out" sounds so gentle. I crank my collets down pretty
tight when threading 1" stainless bar, and after doing a dozen of
them, no wooden bar will chase the adapter out. Doesn't the factory
have a proper method? I have written to them several times; no
reply. Harold
(16944) |
| Camlock
Spindle Question? |
| I have a Heavy 10
with the D1-4 camlock. I have looked at collet closers on eBay but I
think they are all for the threaded spindle. Am I correct in
assuming that there are no threaded parts at all ? I think I will
have a hard time finding a used one also. Maybe better off getting a
collet chuck instead? Mike
(16965) |
| Mike, I
to have a 13" SBL cam lock system D1-4 I have been trying to buy a 4
jaw Ind. but no luck. I think i will buy new parts, because if the
part don't fit your stuck. MSC and others have what I need and at a
fare price. But the 10" parts will fit my 13" and my 13" parts will
fit your 10" I have a Manuel and a lot of parts will work on a 10"
to a 16". I like my 13" it is a 1969. I have been going through it
and it looks like that new parts have been put on the spindle head
already. Kenny
(16966) |
| Mike: SB did
make both the Handlever and Handwheel Closers for the D1-4 Spindle
lathe. I personally have never seen one but wonder if you could not
modify a regular Heavy 10" Closer by either lengthening or
shortening Closer tube to suit your overall headstock length. I just
don't know, even by looking at picture of Closers, how you would
knock out Spindle Collet Adapter Sleeve. Are you in Ontario? I am
also (Burlington). Maybe we could work something out as I do have a
Heavy 10" Handwheel Closer that could be modified. I however don't
have a Heavy 10" ( I have a 13" X 42" CC ) so I would not know if
tube would need to be lengthened or shortened. Ron
(16968) |
| Ron,
Another problem with the camlock spindle is that it has a different
taper than the threaded one. I got my spindle adaptor (MT#2) from
LeBlonde and it had a different part number for the Camlock than the
threaded one. For right now I would like to get a faceplate, all I
have at the moment is a 6" 3 jaw bison chuck. I live just south of
Brantford, I come into Burlington every once in a while for work. I
may be up this week. I'm also looking for a steady rest. I want to
make a long tapered part that is longer than the lathe. Haven't
figured out how to do it yet but I figure I need the rest to start.
Mike
(16995) |
| Mike: My
parts list shows only two different part #'s for all 10" Heavies and
larger lathes. First part # is for adapter with #2 Morse Taper
inside and second part # is for #3 Morse Taper inside. Ron
(16997) |
| Ron, I
know it doesn't make any sense does it. My lathe is from the late
60's I think and when I talked to the guy a LeBlonde he told me that
the D1-4 spindle adaptor had a different part number than the
threaded one. And they didn't have the threaded ones in stock. I
suppose I could measure the adaptor at two places an inch apart and
compare numbers. Mike
(17014) |
| Spindle
threads |
| I have run across a
few back plates and thread protectors for a 2- 5/16 by 6 threads per
inch spindle. Could you tell me which lathe these fit. Richard
(17782) |
| If it is 2-3/8 x 6
instead of 2-5/16 x 6 it should fit the 14-1/2 or 16" South Bends.
ted (17785) |
| I have a 14-1/2 and
I'm pretty sure it is 2-1/4 -6. It is an older one. (17786) |
| My information on
the spindle came from 1958 edition of "how to run a lathe" by South
Bend. I have seen other references that listed 2-1/4 x 6 like you
mentioned but can't find it now. I guess they changed the size at
sometime. Ted (17788) |
| Richard: Must be
measuring Minor Diameter of thread to get 2 5/16" figure. Thread on
Spindle of 14 1/2", 16"and 16/24" is 2 3/8"-6 TPI. Ron (17789) |
| I think it is my
eyesight, been listing too much lately. I measured it again and now
it looks like 2-1/4" 6TPI. I will dig out some spindles in the
morning and check it again. I have been dealing with odd threads all
day. I have a collet draw tube that looks like 1" by 20 TPI can't
find a collet to fit it. There are brass collets that are .845 by 20
TPI that don't fit any of the draw bars. Now I have to figure out
how to cut a 44 degree 1" by 4 TPI for a guy. I am making him a tap
for wood. Richard (17791) |
| Richard: .857 X 20
TPI is #2 Collet which fits drawbar for Small Spindle Bore 13" and
Small Spindle Bore Heavy 10". Both these Small Bore machines are
prewar I think. Ron (17792) |
| Try a #4 Collet on
one that is 1"-20. It is close to size for a 14 1/2" with small
capacity collet at Max 3/4". It should be .942-20 TPI if at correct
size. Ron P.S. -- Do you not have SB Accessory Catalogue? All collet
sizes, dimensions and corresponding lathes that they fit are listed
in 1965 Edition I have. (17793) |
| That's it a number
4. Thanks for the information. Now do you want to make that tap for
me? I didn't think so. It if for an antique candle stand. Richard
(17794) |
| Richard: You must
thread these with a single point tool boring bar. THAT IS YOUR
PUNISHMENT!!!!! Ron (17795) |
| Ron How do I use a
boring bar to cut external threads? I have some GE 45 degree carbide
bits that I thought I would try first. As far as the accessory
catalog, I only found a 1993, 1954 (sold it), a 1925 No. 85 Junior
with accessories, and a 1920 No. 59 red book. I know there must be
more, but I haven't the time to go through the cabinets, boxes,
drums, and files yet. Richard (17797) |
|
Richard: My mistake. I thought that you needed to cut internal
thread to fit that #4 Collet. Ron (17798) |
| Here is a shot on
my 7x cutting a left hand custom metric thread using my threading
bar. These were cut to fit a master set and the same bar was used to
cut both inner and outer threads. JWE (17801) |
| I see how to use
it, but this job isn't that complicated. The V thread is a 90 degree
instead of the common 60 degree. The 4 threads per inch is putting
stress on the lathe. Will try to get a picture when I am done.
Richard (17802) |
| 2 3/8-6 is also the
spindle thread on my neighbors 15 incher, circa 1931. Stan (17807) |
| Spindle
Question |
| I'm adjusting the
spindle clearances on my SB 13" after putting new felts in and
cleaning it all up. I put it back together and the clearances seem
fine, maybe the previous owner actually kept them adjusted (imagine
that!). The spindle however doesn't move as freely as I would
expect. It is difficult to move by hand, even acting on the large
belt pulley, and it slows down quickly if given a hard spin. (by
contrast the spindle in my 14.5 spins quite easily and continues to
spin for a rotation or so). Could this be drag from the new felts?
I'm wondering whether they might be too tight, and I don't want to
cause any oiling issues. james (20442) |
| James, I have a
13" SB and I recently restored it also. Put in new felts, but did
not have any binding. My spindle turns rather freely. Did you adjust
the screws on the bearing caps correctly? I assume you have since
the directions for it are right under the pulley cover. I assume it
did not bind before you cleaned it up? There must be something
binding. Do you have too few shims under the bearing caps? Perhaps
the felts moved during assembly and are between the spindle and the
bearings? Loosen up those small screws in the bearing caps and see
if that affects anything. If you run the lathe for a little bit -
feel the bearing caps - if they are warm something is definitely not
right. Double check that they are in oil and oil is getting to the
spindle. I don't have a lot of experience with my 13" SB, just
pretty much restored it and it sits in the garage now. These are a
few things that I can think of. Alex (20445) |
| There are 2 things
that can cause this kind of a problem on a 13" or lathe of this
type. One is if the headstock mounting bolts are too tight. Check
for about .0005 to 001 clearance in the spindle bearing with a good
dial indicator. Yes I know every one ask the same question, how
tight do I make it. Look at what you are using to tighten the Head
Stock bolts with a ( 6" ) Allen wrench. It should be tight enough so
it will not come loose but not to tight. In other words snug hand
wrench tight like with a 6 or 8 inch hand wrench. Its difficult to
explain the feel when a pro or out of the factory assembled unit is
taken apart for the first time. The fasteners or bolts will break
loose with out to much strain but will be tight enough not to come
loose. These are parts machined to close tolerances over doing it
will cause distortion or break something. (20449) |
| I fooled around
with it some more, and it seems like maybe I have a worn front
thrust bearing. When I tighten the rear nut down, it seems like the
backside of the spindle nose is rubbing on the front of the bearing
caps. Loosening it made the spindle turn more free. I do have the
thrust bearings in the right spots (the thick one goes in front).
I'm not sure what the clearance between the nose and the bearing cap
is supposed to be. Seems like quite tight. I bet one of those
bearings from LeBlond will cost a fortune. Maybe I can just shim
the old one (it seems to run smooth). james (20454) |
| James, I had to
replace one of those thrust bearings. Le blond wanted something like
$100 - $130 for it. I looked everywhere else for one cheaper but
could not find it. So I had to buy one. The race on mine was cracked
all the way around. and the bearing was missing a few rollers. Don't
know how that happened? That was the only thing wrong with the lathe
when I restored it. I imagine if those bearings are in the wrong
place it could cause binding. Don't remember if there were shims
along side these bearings. I'm not living at the same location as
the lathe, otherwise I would look. The book is also by the lathe.
Alex
(20458) |
| You need to look at
page 12-95 from the Parts Manual from South Bend ( # CE3358 ). It
does not give any specifications as to clearance but does state (
hand tighten the take-up nut and lock in place with the take-up nut
screw ). The last time I came across something like that it was
referring to GM wheel bearings ,same procedure. This my seem strange
and not very accrue but its not. I am not against using torque
wrenches I have several of the best available and calibrated. Odds
are you will not be able to over tighten the nut with your fingers
unless you really go at it. When GM wheel bearings are adjusted
correctly they seem a little loose. The reason is they will warm up
and expand after reaching operating temperature just like the
spindle. Let the spindle warm up and then see how much play you
have. A lot of people lost good wheel bearing be cause they were
tight when cold. The LATHE is know different, when it has run awhile
that's when you should check it. PS: YES I wish SOUTH BEND would
have provided specifications of Torque settings. Know one at the
factory seems to know or they won't tell, don't know. I used to
torque my wheel bearings with a inch-pound torque wrench from the
specs in the factory shop manual. It took a while but before I
learned it was a bit over-kill and a waste of time. You have to
remember these machines we are working with are years before the
equipment of today and most of the information that's around.
(20461) |
| SB9 spindle
end play adjustment |
| I'm looking for
info on the adjustment of end or longitudinal play in the spindle on
a SB9 and how the parts are arranged. I've done some searching in
this forum and on the web but not found all the info I'm looking
for. A little background, I was adjusting a work piece mounted on
the face plate to center it up for drilling/boring. I was trying to
turn the spindle by hand as I tapped the work piece into alignment
but the spindle was very difficult to turn (which it had not been in
the past). My bearings do not get hot when the lathe is running. I
got the job done but the spindle was still stiff even after oiling
the cups and greasing the cone pulley. The tumbler reverse was in
neutral and I was in direct drive (not back gear). In experimenting
around I loosened the clamp screw on the spindle take up nut
outboard of the headstock and backed off the nut a little. Now the
spindle spins as it should. No sign of binding or rough operation at
all. Give the face plate a spin and it coasts to a stop a few
seconds later. Oil in the cups seems to go somewhere as it's not
leaking onto the table so I think the wicks are doing their job
although they probably ought to be replaced eventually. But if it
ain't broke I don't want to fix it. So, what is the adjustment
procedure for the take up nut? I've read hand tight in one
reference. I haven't put an indicator on to check for end play but I
don't feel any movement when pushing/pulling the spindle by hand. I
also haven't done the broomstick test for angular play. Is there
supposed to be a washer of some type between the take up nut and the
headstock housing? On my lathe the nut bears directly on the
housing. The bearing surface is smooth and shiny with no sign of
galling but it doesn't seem right that no washer is there. On the
other hand the spindle itself is steel running in cast iron so I
guess there is nothing wrong with that idea as long as the
lubrication is there. The exploded parts drawing shows the thrust
bearing and take up washer but those are inboard of the rear bearing
right next to the gear on the cone pulley. I get the feeling that
end play might be something that needs to be checked once in a while
in case the take up nut works its way a little tighter over time.
Perhaps on my lathe the clamping screw had worked loose and allowed
this to happen. It's a 1957 9A that I've had for a little over a
year now. Bill
(20738) |
| On my 1963ish model
A there is a fiber washer between the takeup net and the headstock
casting. The washer has a small pin that keys into a hole drilled in
the nut. I just installed a new belt last night so it is fresh in my
mind. In the files section/techinfo folder the third jpg tells how
to adjust it on a heavy ten. Hand tighten and then back off 3/8"
circular measurement, then check that it runs free. The fiber washer
is mentioned as well. If you search the archive there is a thread on
replacing the fiber washer with a true thrust bearing for about $10.
John (20739) |
| John, Thanks for
confirming that there is supposed to be something between the take
up nut and headstock. I had found the heavy 10 procedure earlier and
although for a different lathe it also confirmed how the take up is
adjusted. I also note that there are two types of setups shown in
the procedure. In one the take up nut seems to ride on the casting
and in the other there is a true thrust bearing between nut and
casting. Now that you told me to search on 'fiber washer' I was able
to find the thread on replacing that with a thrust bearing setup.
Looking through 20k worth of posts can be time consuming if you
don't know where to start, Thanks! I'll be ordering some parts to do
this upgrade to my machine. How difficult is removing the spindle?
Since the 9 has to have the spindle pounded out and the bull gear is
a press fit (I think) onto the spindle is there much risk to the
bearing surfaces? My reluctance goes back to if it ain't broke don't
fix it but It *would* be a good idea to replace the spindle wicks as
I'm sure they've never seen the light of day since 1957. Damaging
the spindle because the oil delivery failed would be a bad option.
Bill (20749) |
| I have a 10K and it
too has a fiber washer as mentioned by John. I replaced it about a
year ago. If memory serves me it was not too expensive from Leblond.
As far as adjustment goes I provide below the procedure written in
South Bend's bulletin H-4. Figure 20 shows a dial indicator
contacting the front of the spindle and figure 21 shows a screw
driver loosening the screw on the take-up nut. "The spindle take-up
nut is threaded onto the small end of the spindle for adjusting the
end play. A dial indicator mounted in the tool post, as shown in
Fig. 20, can be used for testing the end play of the spindle. Notice
that the indicator button rests on the end of the spindle, not on
the face plate. If a movement of about .001" is indicated when the
spindle is moved endwise in the bearings, the spindle take-up nut is
properly adjusted. Less than .001" clearance is insufficient.
Adjustment may be required if there is more than .002" movement. To
adjust the spindle take-up nut, it is first necessary to remove the
gear guard on the left end of the lathe. The take-up nut binding
screw may then be loosened as shown in Fig. 21, and the take-up nut
adjusted. When the correct adjustment has been made, the binding
screw must be tightened and the end gear guard replaced." Ed P
(20750) |
| Bill The bull gear
is keyed onto the spindle and yes it is a tight fit. A moderate
sized hammer and a block of wood is required. Taking it out
shouldn't have any impact on the bearings. You may want to polish
the bore of the bull wheel before reassembly though. When
reassembling, blows on the spindle will be impacting on the thrust
bearing. It's fairly rugged but you don't want to damage the bearing
surface. If the spindle doesn't move with moderate blows you might
have to rethink your approach. Heat on the bull wheel or dry ice in
the spindle bore are some options I've heard about. Assuming all
goes well, it's no more than a 1/2 hour job to take out and put back
in. My wicks were in fairly good shape so I just washed the gunk out
of them and reinstalled. It's a good idea to check on them though.
John (20752) |
| Reporting back on
my SB9 spindle end play adjustment questions. Wednesday morning I
ordered a needle thrust cage p/n 03380979 and two thrust washers p/n
03381159 from MSC for a whopping $5.87. They arrived Thursday
afternoon about 3PM here in San Diego. I had to remove the tumbler
reverse gears from the lever as they prevent the take up nut from
coming all the way off. Upon removing the take up nut I did see a
thin flat washer between it and the headstock casting. Missed it
before as it was stuck to the nut with oil and very thin. I left it
in place next to the casting and installed the thrust bearing stack.
Then tightened the take up nut hand tight with no back off as in the
10K adjustment procedure and locked it down. I also noted that the
rear spindle bearing cap screw was a little loose (had been loosing
lots of oil around it last weekend) so I snugged it up as well. The
take up nut just barely cleared the tumbler reverse lever as I was
warned about so a little work with a file in two spots on the lever
fixed that. When running the spindle with the tumbler in neutral the
operation seemed very smooth and quieter than before. No oil leaks
observed. I did add oil to the rear cup several times but that's due
to replacing the oil I lost running last weekend. I did not remove
the spindle to check the wicks as it's obvious they are working
(esp. the rear one). I think I'll save that for a future project.
Thanks to the group knowledge base for helping out finding the info
I needed. This is a very easy modification to do to a 9 and I think
is well worth the minimal cost in time and money. I have yet to run
the lathe for extended periods of time (it was close to dinner) but
fully expect no bearing heating or further oil loss to occur. A side
note. I also ordered a 20T gear (Boston Gear) at the same time as my
lathe came with only the 40T spindle stud gear. This limited my
range of thread cutting ability in the QC box on the SB9A. It's 20
diametral pitch but so are all the other meshing gears (also all
Boston Gear) in the chain from spindle stud to gearbox input so I
don't have a mismatched gear pitch situation. Previous owner must
have changed over for some reason lost to time. But now I have my
full range (except metric which I want to add some day). Bill
(20831) |
| Bill, Unless I
missed something, you installed the thrust bearing on the left side
of the left headstock casting? You did not remove the spindle and
install the bearing to the left of the small back gear? Or does this
new bearing do something I am not aware of? RichD (20832) |
| Rich, This
modification replaces the fiber washer that South Bend used between
the take-up nut and the back of the headstock with a needle bearing.
This lets you bring the take up nut snug to the headstock and will
reduce spindle in and out movement. It also makes the lathe run
quieter and cooler and some people have reported less oil leakage.
The main advantage as I see it is a mirror smooth finish on large
facing operations. Glen (20835) |
| Rich and Glen, Glen
is correct. This is an additional thrust bearing assy outboard of
the headstock casting. I installed it for the reasons Glen
mentioned. My lathe did not have the fiber washer that was
apparently original equipment between the take up nut and head stock
casting. In my case there was a thin, perhaps 0.010" flat washer
there. A earlier thread begun by me has pointers to yet earlier
threads describing this conversion. I have yet to try the facing
benefit but the spindle does run quieter and smoother. Don't know
about cooler yet but will soon. Bill (20838) |
| Glen, and all along
I thought this was about the inside thrust bearing that some lathes
did not have. OK! Well, you learn something everyday. I'll have to
go back and find those part numbers. Doesn't look like there's much
room with the new plunger reverser casting not too far from the
split nut. How thick is the new bearing? (Washer + bearing + washer)
RichD (20839) |
| Rich, See message #
20831 for the MSC part numbers I ordered. The bearing stack totaled
0.142". The stack up was 0.032" + 0.078" + 0.032". I left the
existing flat steel washer in place (it was about 0.010". I did
relieve the tumbler reverse lever a little with a file at each point
where it looked like it might hit the take up nut. So far no
interference. I used the lathe for an hour or so today on a project
and the oil in the rear bearing cup stayed at the same level as when
I began, unlike before. No evidence of the bearing heating up as it
previously did either. I haven't tried the facing operation Glen
mentioned getting such good results on but I'm sure that operation
will be improved as well. I'm pleased with the results. Bill (20852) |
| Spindle change
out |
| How viable is it to
expect a used spindle from one machine to run in another head
casting other than the original. Yes it may run but will it give
expected life time and or accuracy? Anyone who has performed this
how were the results? JJ (21404) |
| Bronze
bearings? If you use the bearings that the spindle was operated with
and both the spindle and bearings are in good shape then you stand a
good chance of success. A worn spindle in worn bearings not worn
into each other then the life expectancy will be shorter. It all
depends on the matching wear surface finish and taper. (21418) |
| Heavy 10
Spindle |
| I just got a South
Bend Heavy 10 and am having problems keeping the spindle turning
true. I tried turning many different objects in collets and in the 3
jaw chuck measuring with a dial indicator and I am wobbling a
significant amount. I got frustrated and took the spindle out last
night and started cleaning it. Does anyone know my problem and how
to fix it? I really need help. Ernie (24962) |
| Do you know that it
is the spindle for sure? Have you put your dial indicator directly
on the section right behind the threads and turned the spindle by
hand to check the runout? Do you mean that after you turn the part
down that it still 'wobbles'? (24963) |
| John; Assuming that
the runout on the spindle itself is OK, go to the Files section here
and TechInfo. There's directions on how to first, check your bearing
adjustment clearance with a bar test and second, adjust your
bearings. Ed (24965) |
| South Bend
Publication 17C - Headstock Spindle Sleeve Bearings for 10" to 16"
Lathes is the best information I found when going thru my Heavy 10.
I bet it came from the files section of this group. 24966) |
| Cam lock
spindle |
| Does anyone know
what year South bend started offering camlock spindles on heavy 10
lathes? I picked one up today with a camlock and a cast iron style
pedestal base. Previously I had only seen camlock spindles on lathes
with the 2 door cabinet style base. Also strange about this lathe
(to me anyway) is that it has the older knob style clutch. All the
10Ls I have seen in the past with camlock spindles have had the
lever style. It has the large direct read dials and what appears to
be a factory cooling system. I'm just trying to figure out if this
thing was cobbled together by someone or if they were actually
shipped this way. First I have come across with this combo. Jeff
(25338) |
| Don't sound quite
rite but you could check with LeBlond and see if the serial number
would date it and how it came they should have a record of the
spindle type. My guess is that it is parts but stranger things have
came out of SB. Grumpy (25343) |
| Yea the plan is to
call them tomorrow. It has a CLK model number, I'm not sure what the
K is but CL typically means threaded nose spindle. It also has an
X14 at the end of the serial # which indicates something special,
perhaps that is for the cooling system that is on it.. I will let
you know when I figure it out. Jeff see if the serial number would
date it and how it came they should have a record of the spindle
type. My guess is that it is parts but stranger things have came out
of SB. (25358) |
| The K of the
CLK indicates it shipped with a Taper Key Lock Spindle. My 16" has a
CLC and shipped from the factory with a D1-4 Camlock Spindle. The 14
at the end of the S/N is the Model Number. The X most likely means a
hardened bed. Arne (25364) |
| Maybe this is
original then. I was going by this chart which indicates anything CL
is threaded.
http://www.southbendlathe.com Jeff
(25367) |
| At the bottom right
of
http://www.southbendlathe.com you'll see the C and
the K designations. Seems that if these were added to the CL then
the threaded nose became a D1-4 Camlock nose or a Type-L Taper Key
Lock nose. The C probably stands for Camlock and the K for Key. As I
mentioned, our lathe's catalog number is CLC155C and it shipped with
a D1-4 nose, per the Serial Card at LeBlond. There was some
discussion here about this some time ago between Frank (25368) |
| I spoke with
Leblond a few minutes ago and it is a L nose spindle I have, and it
is original. I'm going to be offering the lathe for sale to the group
in another thread. (25372) |
| Maybe the spindle
was replaced? (25382) |
