| Spindle insert question (taper)
(Feb 15, 2002) |
Spindle taper, 13" lathe
(May 19, 2003) |
| Spindle taper specs for OLD SB
lathes? (Mar 12, 2002) |
S.B.14.5'' spindle nose taper
(Aug 18, 2003) |
| 9A spindle taper (Jun 26,
2002) |
What spindle taper SB 10H?
(Oct 3, 2003) |
| Taper for spindle on SB 10 Heavy?
(Dec 4, 2002) |
10L spindle taper (Jan 9,
2004) |
| |
| Spindle insert question (taper) |
| In
looking at my lathe (SB 9" Model C 1940) There is an insert which
goes into the spindle nose to allow a MT#2 dead center to be put in
to turn between centers. When accomplishing this operation the part
is turned by a dog which is driven by the faceplate. This I
understand. I also have a drill pad which goes into the tailstock to
allow a drill to be placed in the spindle with a MT#2 to accomplish
drill various pieces. Here is my confusion - what keeps that insert
and the drill bit from turning inside the spindle and scoring it?
There is a tang on the end of the MT#2's but it doesn't attach to
anything in the spindle. Also If I place a drill chuck in the
tailstock and drill into the turning part in a chuck - there is no
tang to keep the chuck from turning in the tailstock. If this did
happen I believe it would wreck the inside of the taper. Any input
or this just doesn't happen? Alex Attachment:
(application/ms-tnef) winmail.dat [not stored]
(3251) |
| Friction. #2 MT is a
self-holding taper meaning that clean components properly seated
should not come out or rotate. But it does in fact happen -
especially on SB tailstocks when drilling 'grabby' materials like
brass. (If the drill bit isn't reground to look like a zero-top-rake
lathe bit for these materials, it can pull the shank loose enough to
spin) I have seen a modification described to the tailstock ram to
make it hold the tang - someone put pipe plugs or large set screws
into cross drilled and tapped holes. You might be interested to know
that most quality drill chucks themselves are taper-mounting - your
tailstock chuck probably has a #33 Jacobs taper inside it, and is
pressed onto an arbor having 33 JT on one end and 2MT on the other.
Unless you manage to over torque it, you would probably need a set
of slotted wedges to separate these components. Chris
(3252) |
| Morse tapers
are supposed to be 'self-locking'. I think that means the angle is
shallow enough they wring together. I bet jwe can offer more
insight. (3254) |
| Brian What you said about being
self locking holds true for Morse tapers and some others such as B S
that are used for tool holding and collets. The angles are long and
if clean and free from oil and dings should hold for most operations
with a safety break loose when overloaded. Now in the real world
with out a draw bar of some sort to hold them in place most are not
clean or free from dings either inside or out. Thus only trust the
taper to hold with small drills and reamers. If you are going to use
large drills you should use a drill with a matching taper on the
drill shank for best hold as large drill can spin in the drill chuck
before the taper lets go. Now R8 and 5C as well as other short taper
collets need the draw bar to work at all and they are called self
releasing tapers because they are short and steep. Hold a collet or
item with a taper up and look at it. If the taper is shallow and
long it will hold well if clean, if the taper is short and steep it
will need a draw bar to hold it in place. Now there is a trick that
I have used but you must be very careful when doing this as it is
very easy to get hurt if you are not. Put a bar in the tool post or
use the boring bar holder with the QC post and a short bar that wii
fit in the key hole in the drill chuck. let this bar rest against
the tool post as you drill and it will up to a point keep a dirty
taper from spinning. But the chuck if the drill grabs can be pulled
out of the taper and pieces will fly if this happens. Almost as bad
as leaving the chuck key in the chuck when you start the spindle. In
most tool salvage stores there are usually large bins of drills with
#2MT shanks for about 2 to 3 dollars a pound and most of them have
bins of drills, taps and end mills also for the same kind of prices.
There are three such outfits near to me and I have heard mention of
many more and they usually have lots of other neat cheap stuff as
well including bar ends and rems. JWE (3255) |
| Morse tapers
are self locking, as the angle is 7 degrees (in steel this is the
magic number.) If the tapers and sockets are in good shape, and not
subjected to heavy vibration or a pulling force, as happens when a
conventional drill bit grabs, they tend not to spin. Most lathe
books show using a dog clamped to the bit pressing against a fixed
surface when using large drills from the tailstock. The important
thing is to have the mating surfaces clean. I'd use an MT3 dead
center and skip the adapter sleeve at the headstock end though,
using one takes you from 1 mating surface up to 3. Bison dead
centers are good, and under $10. You don't need a carbide tip on the
headstock end, as this center revolves with the work. If the lathe
needs the sockets cleaned up, MT reamers are available. I have them
for both #2 and #3 tapers. Just be sure to specify a finishing
rather than roughing reamer. If you need them and happen to be in
northern Virginia drop me a line, I could clean up the sockets for
you very easily. Stan
(3275) |
| Spindle taper
specs for OLD SB lathes? |
| What is the exact specs for the old spindle taper SB used on
their lathes? The 13 and 15 inch lathes made in the late 20's are
some oddball taper, almost a short 4 1/2 MT, but faster. As I have
to recut this taper on 2 machines and make tooling to fit, it would
be nice to do it to original specs. Doesn't matter if it is just
close in the case where I make tooling to fit, but the day after I
say "close enough" is the day I'll find a box full of new centers at
a flea market and wish I'd chased that last couple of thou on the
rate of the taper! Stan
(3615) |
|
http://lathe.com/images/sb_7324.gif Scott
Logan (3616) |
| Scott!
.623 per foot on my 13 it shall be! Stan (3618) |
| You will, of
course, compare that to your measurements anyway, right? I ask
because the only taper listed as .623 *IS* a standard taper, a #4
Morse, used on the SB 13 with 11/16" collet. The other 13 uses the
SB proprietary taper of 0.602" per foot, the same rate of taper as a
#3 Morse. Scott Logan
(3622) |
| Scott; I
thought it was rather odd to have it listed as an MT4 taper (at
least for rate). I could have sworn I'd ruled out MT4 several years
ago when the rusty old beast came into the shop for rebuilding. I
spent an hour or so trying to get some believable measurements this
afternoon to confirm the taper. The interior of this poor old beasts
spindle is in sad shape, it is clear more than one boring bar
crashed over the years. Taking several measurements using several
methods, I get conflicting results, none of which match anything
else! Using a test indicator and advancing 0.5 inches from the
mouth, I get 15 thou indicated, so that's 30 thou included, times 24
to get 0.720 taper per foot. Can't be right. Using telescope gages
one inch and two inches into the taper, I get a taper rate of 0.408
per foot. Again, got to be a bogus value! Using a telescope gage at
the mouth and one inch into the bore, I get 0.648 per foot taper.
Not good, but at least not so far from anything normal that it's
just silly. Arbitrary seat of pants time: Wedging a MT3 to MT3
extension socket into the bore with tamped paper towels as packing,
and indicating the OD of the extension socket, I get only 2 thou or
so variation over almost 2 inches of travel, implying that this is
in fact the 0.602 per foot proprietary SB taper, rather than MT4. I
checked vertical as well as horizontal readings to see that I wasn't
running uphill or down. I guess the MT3 extension is averaging out
all the pits and damaged areas that the other methods are prone to,
peering into the spindle bore gives the impression that the MT3
shank is in pretty good contact, although the taper is so nasty I
didn't see any point in breaking out the Prussian blue. So - here
are the options I see: This is an old SB13 from the 1929 to 1932
period, with a 1 7/8-8 nose, so this sort of makes sense. If you or
any list member can think of something I've overlooked here please
yell out, otherwise I'll figure the original taper was in fact
0.602/ft. I could bore to this, but I think any original tooling I
found would seat too deep once the spindle taper was cut to a
reasonable degree of decency, so the original taper rate sort of
fades in importance. If nobody sees a problem, I could bore and ream
with a MT4 and get into something standard. It would sit a bit
deeper than usual after the clean up, but at least a MT4 to MT3
adapter would let me mount the centers I have or use a MT4 center,
even if I have to cut the small end off with a chop saw. Weird (?)
idea: I think there might be too much metal removal needed to
convert it to a 5C collet spindle, although I sure am tempted! There
would be 1/4 inch of spindle left between the root of the spindle
thread and the bore. Too weak? I'm just not sure. A drawtube would
be out, as the spindle bore is only 1 inch, but a drawbar pulling on
the same sort of insert a 5C collet stop uses - secured to the
inside threads on the collet - might just work. No pass though, but
half an apple beats none :-) You haven't heard of anyone trying this
stunt by chance? Stan
(3629) |
| Try this as a
last resort before tearing it down or reaming: get/make a lead bar
or a bar with about 1/2" thick lead by maybe 2" long on the outside
(re-melted wheel weights are really hard and don't work well at all
but reclaimed battery plates, sinkers, and airgun pellets are
usually plenty soft) and lube it with Vaseline or wheel bearing
grease - then run (under gentle but persuasive force) it into the
taper using the bar held very solidly in boring bar holder or a
really solid clamp onto the compound- can use backgear, the lead
will form slowly to the taper you have, may have to re-grease once
or twice and usually have to start some kind of a taper onto it. You
can estimate the starting taper and hand cut it - then press in to
get the actual fit, takes a bit of work but then you can mike the
plug and see what you got. Doesn't work for a rough surface inside
the taper as it will scrub the lead and gall it onto the steel too
much. use a heavy or silicone grease if you get much heat buildup.
you should polish the taper with something before doing this, beartex or the like gives it enough surface to hold lube and still
hold the tools or easy enough to polish out well when done.
(3631) |
| 9A spindle
taper |
| I have a WWII era
SBL 9" model A. It came with a hand wheel collet closer and one
collet marked Hardinge 1/4. It works just fine and indeed holds
anything with a diameter of 1/4". Two questions. One: I have
searched old messages and have been to the files section on this BBS
and to the SBL web site and have seen in writing at both places the
statement that the spindle nose taper on my machine is a No. 2 morse
taper. From the old messages regarding this point I got confused. My
spindle nose taper is not a No. 2 morse taper. Anybody know what it
really is? Question two: The collet closer I have found from reading
other messages is a 3C. Is this true? I can't tell a 3C from 5C or
the end of a stick. What are the dimensions of a 3C vs. a 5C or a
No. 2 morse taper for that matter? I see from browsing about the WEB
that 3C is very pricey re. a 5C so before I spend any more of my
wife's money I would like to know for sure. Jim
(4757) |
| Jim, First,
the headstock should have a no. 3 Morse taper. There should be an
adapter piece for the use of the 3C collets. Look at
www.loganact.com/tips/tapers.htm for a list of taper dimensions. I
think there is also a list of collet dimensions. Hardinge also has a
list of collet dimensions. A 5C has a 1.250 back bearing (or shaft)
vs .650 for the 3C. KBC Tools list the 3C collets for about $17.50
each. I've seen other sources for $30. They list the 5C for $5.80. I
know its a bummer. You might look at E-bay under "collets" and
"collet". I would say a set by 1/8th would cost about $75 to $125.
Tom
(4758) |
| Check with
Meridian Machinery ( www.mermac.com ) or Plaza Machinery for collets
Last time I checked with Plaza they were about $12.00 Pete
(4762) |
| Jim; While
there have been some variations over the years, I'd bet the
headstock taper is a Morse #3 taper. The collets are most likely 3C
collets, the adapter is a MT3 to 3C sleeve that goes into the
headstock. There should also be a threaded nosepiece, that not only
protects the spindle nose threads, but also provides for ejection of
the adapter sleeve. I've seen the MT2 spec on several official SB
spec sheets, something I've never found to be the case. I know
according to specs my lathe has a MT2 spindle, but that MT3 center
sure slides right in! 3C collets are available, but as you have
noticed, tend to get a tad pricey, although not really any more than
GOOD quality 5C collets. With that said, I will admit that the
import 5C collets I have seem to be quite good in terms of runout,
although the threads tend to be a little rough. 3C collets also are
a bit limited in capacity, topping out at 1/2 inch I think. There
are 5C collet chucks available, as well as information on making
adapters to allow 5C to be used on smaller lathes. You usually give
up the pass through capacity when you use a simple adapter, but this
works fine for most of my needs. If you check the files area of this
group, you can get the dimensions of the 3C collets to double check.
A 3C collet has an OD of 0.6495 immediately in front of the
threads, and an OAL of approximately 2 11/16 inch, which varies
slightly depending on the size of the collet hole. As far as I know,
if you have a 3/4 inch through hole, it's MT3! Stan
(4764) |
| Taper for
spindle on SB 10 Heavy? |
| Can anyone tell me
what the taper is for the spindle on a South Bend 10 Heavy? I'd like
to get a center for it but I'm not sure what to get - it looks like
a MT 4? Mark (7752) |
| Mark, This question
comes up every so often. Do a search in the message area and I think
you will find your answer discussed at length. If I remember from
the last thread it was close to a 4 1/2 Morse Taper but proprietary
to South Bend? Jim
(7756) |
| Nope, a proprietary
taper. See the files section, specifically:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/southbendlathe/files/Techinfo/sb_7324.gif
Scott Logan
(7757) |
| I'm puzzled.
As I read the table given in the link, the taper of the large bore
13 has a taper of .623 in/ft (which I think is correct for MT,
although they vary some). The rest are listed as .602. Yet they are
all listed with a Morse taper number (that is what symbol N
indicates.) Additionally, the large spindle 13 is shown with an MT3
spindle, but mine is MT 5. I use MT5 end mill adapters. (7759) |
| When I got my
13" SB with a 1-3/8" bore and a 5C lever draw bar I did not get a
collet adapter. I thought I could make one from a No. MT 5. It was
to long but seemed to fit. On further investigation in had a slight
movement. It would not blue in, so not useable. It being so long it
would probably be a nice start on returning the correct taper. Gave
it up when I found a reasonable priced SB adapter. Incidentally the
same SB adapter fits nicely in my Heavy Ten. Walt
(7763) |
| I have never
blued in the taper to check, but I will say that I have used a No. 5
to No 3 adapter to mount a large taper shank drill to center drill a
large block of steel for a boring bar holder and got no slippage or
drill wander (it ran perfectly straight.) I have also used the
adapter with a No 3MT end mill holder in addition to a No 5 end mill
holder to do some heavy fly cutting, with perfect results. These
were all tanged adapters, no drawbar to aid in alignment.
Additionally, I have a Royal 5c adapter that fits perfectly and runs
with essentially no runout, no matter how I mount it. One thing I do
know, that I found surprising, is that the spindle on my 13
definitely has two tapers. The MT section, judging by finger feel,
is about two inches long. By the oil marks left on the adapters,
this is where the purchase is occurring. There is another, slightly
shallower taper behind this before the diameter reduces to the
spindle bore. Is it possible that SB would make lathes with dual
taper spindles? I doubt anyone did this themselves after delivery
due to having to grind the taper. (I presume the spindle is too hard
to ream). (7769) |
| Well guys,
after the posts this morning, I couldn't stand it, so when I got
home (late) this evening, I took four different MT 5 attachments I
own and tried blueing them all into the spindle of my SB13 with the
large spindle. I was mistaken about there being two tapers, there is
only one. What I mistook for the second taper was the beginning of
the straight bore. Anyway, all four adapters blued in perfectly. I
measured the four (an MT5 to MT4 sleeve, two different end mill
adapters and a Royal 5C collet adapter) and calculated tapers of
0.6156, 0.617, 0.6162 and 0.6268. These were relatively rough
measurements, but all are around 0.62, which is near the spec for
MT5 and not near the .602 shown in the SB chart. The ,6268 was the
Royal collet adapter. All these tools lock in tightly and, as I
said, the Dykem test was perfect on all. I noted that there is a lot
of variation in length of these adapters (the taper part) varying
from 1.72 inches for the collet adapter to almost 6 inches for the
sleeve. The collet adapter fits the spindle to within a few
hundredths of the nose. All the adapters are the same at the back
(small) end. The taper section in the spindle seems to be slightly
less than 2 inches long. From this, I have to state without doubt
that my SB has an MT5 taper. I really doubt it was modified after
leaving the factory, unless someone was really good with a long nose
grinder and taper attachment. Based on the contour and finish of the
taper and bore behind it, I doubt this happened. By the way, the
statement a lot of people make about MT5 adapters sticking out of
the taper a long way and therefore not fitting is sort of off base.
All the tapers except the collet adapter are so long compared to the
spindle taper that they would have to extend out. Also, most full
length tapers are so large at the big end that if bored and inserted
to the full length, there would be less than a quarter inch of metal
between the bore and the thread root. So, does anyone think SB may
have made some lathes with MT5 tapers? It would be interesting to
see a build sheet or tag on this lathe to see if it is mentioned.
(7794) |
| Spindle taper,
13" lathe |
| I have a 13" with a
"large bore" spindle. By my measurements, it is 1.625" at the
opening. It is approximately 1.5" at the most narrow. Question: Is
this spindle tapered to a standard? If so, what? Part of the reason
for this question goes to how to mount a collet on this lathe. It
came with an assortment of 5C collets, but no adapter. What are the
(inexpensive?) options to do this? Mark
(11215) |
| It should be
a Morse taper. MT5 if I remember correctly. These links may be
useful: sb_7324.gif in the folder:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/southbendlathe/files/Techinfo/
http://shopswarf.orcon.net.nz/morse.html You need to get a 5C collet
adapter (and a drawbar, if that was your next question). The adapter
OD is ground to match the spindle taper. It slips into and seats in
the spindle.
(11217) |
| It is a
proprietary taper of 0.602" per foot, with a gage line diameter of
1.629". This is similar to a #3 Morse Taper, but with a larger
diameter. See the files section of this group, Techinfo|sb_7324.gif
or use the following shortcut: http://tinyurl.com/c432 (Damn! Scary
when the "Logan guy" knows so much about South Bend Lathes, isn't
it?) As for the adapter, keep an eye out on eBay, or make your own.
http://lathe.com/images/5-c.gif
Scott Logan
(11218) |
| Yep. It's scary.
Making an adapter is exactly what I should do with my lathe, But.
Does the adapter need to be hardened. And if so, it is ground to
final dimensions AFTER hardening, correct? Is there a home-shop way
to do this? Mark
(11224) |
| Even if you don't own an SBL, you are certainly a member
of the family. Now if you could just tell me why my 1941 9" Model A
SBL came with Timkin roller bearings in the headstock. No back-gear,
but roller bearings. Never seen that option documented anywhere -- a
speed lathe with a QC gearbox. Paul R. (11225) |
| As Scott
says, all the SB literature (and apparently most of the lathes)
point to the proprietary taper Scott mentions. However there was a
list member a while back who claimed to have a 13" SB whose spindle
fit a MT5 taper perfectly, and he claimed to have verified this with
bluing. I don't have a way to verify this (other than what he
reported), but if it is true there is at least a non-zero chance the
taper on your lathe is also MT5. However , the proprietary taper is
certainly the way to bet. If you have anything (or can borrow it)
with a MT5 male taper you can check the fit (using some hi-point
blue) and make doubly sure. If you decide you need the proprietary
adapter (either by measuring or just going with the odds) there is
one for sale right now on eBay which the seller calls MT5, but it
sure looks to me like the SB proprietary part. If it goes cheaply
enough (because it isn't carefully described) you can "pays your
money and takes your chances". Frank
(11226) |
| Scott is correct
on the taper. Headstock spindles on the South Bend belt driven
lathes were manufactured to have a spindle sleeve or adapter. This
piece would then allow you to use a standard Morse taper center. On
the 13" lathe once the sleeve was in place you could fit a #3MT
piece without a problem. Rose Marvin
(11245) |
| Rose It
sounds like you are confident that South Bend didn't make any
belt-driven lathes supporting 5C collets with "special" spindles
having a MT5 taper rather than the proprietary taper. I would love
to be able to say this with more confidence when someone shows up on
the list with a lathe they are "sure" has a MT5 spindle taper. I
expect most of them are just measurement errors, either due to the
inherent difficulty in accurately measuring a taper or due to the
apparent good fit of a male and female taper with very slightly
different tapers per foot. However occasionally a report comes along
which sounds like the owner knows what they are doing and still
thinks they have a MT5. Perhaps there are a few "back yard regrinds"
out there. Frank
(11258) |
| S.B.14.5''
spindle nose taper |
| My 14.5 inch S.B. spindle has a starting bore of
1.325 with a taper of .602/ft. i.e 3M.T but larger dia. Now the
question. Is this taper peculiar to a South Bend nose adaptor? Does
any recognized tooling available today fit? With these lathes being
so popular I would think that some kit must be being
re-manufactured. I'm fed up trawling through e-bay looking at stuff
that won't fit!
(13419) |
| You will need
an adapter sleeve if you are trying to use anything with a Morse
taper. (13423) |
| The spindle
taper you mention (and associated adapter to 5C) is common to the
heavy 10", the 13" and the 14.5", as shown by my copy of the SB
specification sheet. I am not aware of any other lathe using these
specific spindle taper. I believe that Scott Logan has previously
indicated that Royal makes a suitable adapter to 5C as well as to #2
and #3 Morse, although I expect they are more expensive than the
adapters which show up from time to time on Ebay. The Royal adapters
are the only ones I know if in current manufacture. I agree that you
take some risk with getting what you expected on Ebay, however. If
the seller states that it is from a SB heavy 10" (aka 10L), 13" or
(of course) 14.5" I expect you have a good chance. Frank
(13424) |
| Let's start here. Do you know what
the spindle thread is? They made two different ones. Sounds like you
might have the bastard 2-1/4-6 spindle which is not easy to find the
correct parts for. If you want more info on this machine, if that is
in fact what you have, email me at peep38k(at)mchsi(dot)com -
Randy
(13434) |
| Frank, Slight
correction. In holtzapffel2000's original post, he indicated a
1.325" gage line diameter. That matches up with my data (thanks
again) for a 14-1/2"|3/4" Collet SB, but NOT the Heavy 10 (10L) or
the 13", 14-1/2"|1-1/6" Collet or 16". The 14-1/2"|3/4" Collet also
has only a 1-1/8" spindle bore, which means that a 5-C Collet draw
tube will not fit (requires at least 1-3/8"). Also, as pointed out
elsewhere, this lathe should have a 2-1/4 x _6_ spindle nose thread.
Finally, I will point out that we carry 5-C (SB-5), 3-C (SB-3),
3-AT, and some 4-C (SB-4) Collet Adapters, which are manufactured by
Royal Products, but the reducing sleeves (to #3 Morse) that we carry
are made by us. I believe SB also manufactures these. We have not,
so far, made any reducing sleeves for the taper used in the
14-1/2"|3/4" Collet SB. Scott Logan
(13443) |
| Scott Oops- I
skipped right over the 1.325" dimension. Thanks for the
more-than-slight correction. I was tripped up by the 0.602"/ft taper
(or at least I'll use that as an excuse). The other "little" spindle
bore lathes, the 10" and 13", have a different taper/ft (0.623"/ft).
I suppose that makes the adapters for this lathe rather rare (in the
sense that they appear to not be shared with any other SB lathe, and
I suspect SB sold the majority of the 14.5" lathes with the bigger
bore I mistakenly described). Bob Based on this I expect that the
chances of finding something on Ebay which will fit are between slim
and none. I would work with one of the reputable used SB parts
suppliers. Frank
(13464) |
| A note
appreciation and thanks to those who so freely made available their
knowledge and expertise identifying my 3/4 collet S.B. Now that I
know what, I'm looking for I might even recognize it! Bob.
(13474) |
| I bought a
spindle adapter and spindle thread protector off of E-Bay awhile
back. I thought it was for a 9 workshop. As far as I can tell it is
for the 14 or 14-1/2. I keep meaning to measure it to make sure.
I'll try and see tonight. At least as the threads go on the spindle
protector. Tom (13499) |
| What spindle
taper SB 10H? |
| Is it a special or
like a #6 Morse, etc? (14253) |
| Mine is a #5
morse in a threaded spindle, 1 3/8" thru hole. The end hole is
1.748" for a #6 it would be 2.494" and for a #4 it would be 1.231"
JP
(14282) |
| JP I'll wager
yours is not #5 Morse, but the proprietary SB spindle taper used on
all of SB's larger (heavy 10" and up) belt-driven lathes. They are
not very different in overall size, and the tapers are close
(.623"/ft versus .602"/ft), but all the SB documentation says
.602"/ft, and thus not #5 Morse. If you are not convinced, find a #5
Morse taper and blue it. Insert it in the spindle, remove it and
look for uniform contact along the whole length. Frank
(14285) |
| I have a
Heavy 10 with the camlock spindle. I think it came with the threaded
shaft and someone has changed the whole works. So I am in the
process of trying to find a taper for it also. I have assumed that
it would be the same as the others....is this true. And then the
next question is there an after market parts available or am I
calling Leblond ? Mike
(14287) |
| Mike, The
parts manual shows a #2 Morse taper socket installed in the cam lock
spindle on the 10" and #3 on the 10" and larger models. That's what
it says. Drive it out and mic it up, you may be able to get one
locally. JP (14291) |
| Mike, The SB
manual shows part number CL205L for the 10" threaded spindle/MT2
sleeve and part number PT3604L1 on the D1 cam lock version so it
appears they are different. I got the CL205L from LeBlond for $53 +
shipping to give you an idea of price. Royal also had them for $150.
Barry (14293) |
| I stand
corrected! Thanks for the info Frank, I haven't used it yet. I will
check it out before I do. What are the large end and small end
supposed to be? JP (14296) |
| 10L spindle
taper |
| Tom, Yes, the taper
inside the spindle is for a collet closer. The 10L takes the
standard "5C" collets, which go up just a little bit bigger than 1
inch. Also, you can put a Morse taper sleeve adapter in it, for
turning between centers. A while ago, there was some discussion
about what the actual dimensions of the spindle taper are. Some
people call it a Morse taper number "four and a half." I measured
mine and posted the dimensions, but others have measured
differently:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/southbendlathe/message/2723
Jon (16405) |
| Jon (and Tom)
The SB heavy 10 (as well as the other large, "classic" SB lathes)
uses a proprietary SB taper in the spindle. It is not Morse 4 1/2.
The body size is somewhere between a #4 Morse and a #5 Morse taper
(perhaps leading to the idea that it might be a Morse 4 1/2).
However, the taper per foot of the SB proprietary taper is
0.6023"/ft (i.e. the same as a #3 Morse taper in terms of taper
/foot) while a Morse 4 1/2 (yes, there is apparently such a thing)
is 0.6240 "/ft. Others seem to keep getting this mixed up, but SB
has always been very clear about the internal taper of these
spindles. Tom For your benefit, there is a SB proprietary adapter
which matches this spindle taper on it's outside and fits a 5C
collet on the inside. There are also proprietary adapters with an
inside taper of #2 Morse or #3 Morse, for instance for a
headstock-end center when turning between centers. The adapters show
up on Ebay from time to time (sometimes at exorbitant prices). Frank
(16408) |
| Jon! I put your message you sent me to into my lathe pages. It most
certainly answers all my questions. Tom
(16427) |
| Frank,
Is there a formula for finding the proper amount to turn the
compound to get a specific taper? I suppose I could try someday to
cut my own adapter. Maybe that is beyond both the heavy ten and my
skills. Just what category is all this southbend stuff listed on
ebay? It would help a lot to just go there instead of getting lost
like I always seem to do when searching there. My wife will hit the
roof (again) when she finds me searching for "more" stuff. Tom
(16428) |
| Tom It is
pretty easy with Trig. to convert in/ft of taper to degrees (which
is how the compound is calibrated). Having said that, the degree of
accuracy you want in the taper is substantially tighter than the
resolution on the compound. If you did want to try making your own
adapter the approach might be to mount a dial indicator in the
toolpost, set the compound to an angle which is at least close, and
then, with the lathe off, run the compound in and out with the
indicator running against the taper in the spindle itself. The
change in the indicator will be the error between the actual taper
and the compound setting. With some trail and error I expect you
could get the angle close enough. Even if you get that part done
well you still have to create the inside taper, either for one of
the Morse tapers or a 5C collet. Here you don't have as convenient a
reference. Overall, unless you are in a big hurry, I expect that
watching eBay until one comes along at a plausible price (or at
least not a ridiculous price) is your best bet even if finances are
tight. Tell your wife how useful a lathe is (especially with
collets-) in making things needed to maintain the house. If that
works have her call all the rest of our wives and convince them too
:-). On Ebay, searching for 'south bend lathe' (not in quotes, since
they may not have the words in that order) does pretty well. A
search for just 'south bend', and then just looking at the stuff in
"business" catches submissions like 'south bend collet sleeve'
without the word 'lathe'. Some stuff shows up under 'southbend' (all
one word). Frank
(16434) |
| Ok I get the
Idea. So back to high school. I'll probably wait on eBay and see how
things go. That way I won't have to tell the wife anything. I just
came back from buying another grinder just for the metal lathe tools
so that should raise some hair around here for a while :-).I got it
20%off list so she should be happy right? Tom
(16437) |
| That adapter
to fit the Heavy 10L spindle goes for $230+ from LeBlond and the
adapter to bring it to a #2 morse for a center is $65. I priced them
both a short time ago. I picked up a 5C sleeve, nut and handwheel
closer from Sobels for $200 and made my own morse adapter. I started
with a 5MT to 3MT unhardened reducer and turned the outside down to
fit the spindle. If you have a 4 jaw chuck you can use a plain morse
socket to hold a center. I used this setup when I modified the
reducer. JP (16442) |
| The last one I sold on
eBay went for $45
I believe. It was to go from a heavy10
taper to a MT3. I maybe have some others, would have to check.
(16444) |
| I bought a #2 MT
center adapter sleeve for my 10L from LeBlond in September. $53.00
plus shipping for a new part. Also priced them from Royal who wanted
$164 if I remember correctly. The 5C collet adapter and knock out
nut would be more expensive. Plus you also need the drawbar and
associated hardware. Barry
(16449) |
| I was under
the impression that LeBlond was out of business. Is this
incorrect? I've had to ingest so much new info lately I'm probably
wrong. Is a plain Morse taper adapter one that has no outside taper
for use in a chuck? One more thing, is a 10L the same as a Heavy Ten? I
notice some use that term a lot and don't want to get even more
confused. Tom
(16459) |
| I just fixed a
toilet-tank flush gizmo by turning a small brass stud on my SBL.
Saved $19.00 and Mother thinks I'm a genius and that all my machine
tools (that I got "for practically nothing") are probably OK Whew!
Frank
(16460) |
| Good one Frank I
just told the "Boss" yesterday that she should think of something I
could make for her, anything She just gave me a blank stare. I
unfortunately had to spend some more money yesterday to enlarge my
little insulated shop in my unheated garage to make room for the SB
Heavy ten. It is so I can work the lathe and not stick to the metal
parts. It was 5*F in there last night! I can now heat it up to the
fine temp of 40*F, of course her car no longer fits in the garage as
well. Tom
(16461) |
| Tom, the 'L' in the serial number of your lathe
denotes a large spindle bore that will accept a 5C collet sleeve. It
is a southbend proprietary taper, 1.629" at the large end, .602"/in
taper and 2" deep. It is smaller than a #5 morse reducer and the
wrong taper but you can cut an unhardened one to fit and use its
existing internal morse taper for a center or other morse taper
tools. The piece with straight sides outside and a morse taper hole
is called a morse socket. You can hold these with a chuck,
preferably a 4 jaw, and use them, but it is not as convenient as a
spindle adapter. Some machines have a straight bored hole in the
spindle, a cam lock spindle may have this arrangement. The
'discount' you mentioned is only good if the she gets it! g (16467) |
| JP,
I'll have a look around at work for an old #5taper ,maybe I can get
away with working on that. Is it out of the question to turn down the
outside even if it's hardened? Oh yes one more thing. How in the heck
do I lock my carriage? My How to Run A Lathe book shows a carriage
that is different from mine .They show a lock bolt on the top of the
left rear of the carriage but I don't have anything like that. I do
have a 3/8's or so size hole in that area. Is something missing. I can
sort of lock things with the split nuts but that can't be the right
way to do it Any ideas? Tom
(16485) |
| You can pick
up an unhardened one from Enco for around $12. p/n 214- 8035 or
214-8025. A hardened one will be a little tough to machine even with
carbide and get a good finish. The carriage lock consists of a bolt
on the right of the carriage and an 'L' shaped square nut
underneath. It effectively clamps the saddle to the front way.
Probably the empty hole you mention. JP (16486) |
| Tom, I goofed on
the Southbend taper it's .602"/ft not inch, the #5 morse is
.6315"/ft. JP
(16490) |
