| Drum Switch (Feb 9, 2001) |
Asbestos & Old Switches (May 26, 2003) |
| Spindle Forward Reverse switch
(Mar 19, 2001) |
Wiring motor to reversing drum switch (Jun 5,
2003) |
| Wiring diagram
(Sep 3, 2001) |
Cutler hammer drum
switch (Oct 8, 2003) |
|
Automatic Starter switch 13" SB
help (Jul 29, 2001) |
9C workshop
forward/reverse switch (Nov 16, 2003) |
|
1953 South Bend Wiring
(Sep 21, 2002) |
Electrical switch
heavy 10 (Jan 27, 2004) |
| Forward/reverse
switch wiring diagram (Dec 2, 2002) |
Cutler-hammer drum
switch wiring (Feb 29, 2004) |
| Reverse switch
(Jan 19, 2003) |
Drum Switch Wiring
(Jun 12, 2004) |
| What's this switch
for? (May 1, 2003) |
Furnas Reversing
switch HP1 style R1A 220VAC wiring (Dec 30, 2004) |
| SB 9 motor Switch
Diagram (May 8, 2003) |
|
| |
| Drum Switch |
| I have just gotten a 9" Model C South Bend lathe.
The info from this group has already provided a great deal of help
to me. I have been setting my lathe up for my particular needs, and
I have a question: I have a Furnas Forward Off Reverse Drum Switch,
but the switch is only wired for reverse. My Baldor motor says it is
capable of being reversed. What would be the typical wiring
schematic for a forward AND REVERSE setup on my lathe? Or does
anybody know where to find out more info on this? Or is this not
advisable due to the fact that the chuck might back itself off the
spindle? Thoughts and opinions anyone? Also, I am missing a
threading dial. Would it be possible to make one, if I was able to
find out how many teeth are on the thread dial gear that engage w/
the lead screw? Does anybody know how many teeth there are?
Frank (202) |
| Frank, Reversing is not real
useful (at least for me on my 9" SB). And yes, the chuck on my SB
will unscrew if I'm not careful about high-acceleration reverse. If
you only have reverse right now, either your switch/motor may be
wired wrong or the switch/wires broken. The Baldor motor should have
instructions on the label on swapping the start winding wires in
order to reverse the motor (so it will go forward in your case).
BTW, Baldor is a very good brand! There is a nice article in
"PROJECTS Three" the Home Shop Machinist book about setting up
motors and reversing switches. I also recall an article in one of
those books about making your own threading dial for a SB. I'll
track down both articles and see if I can put 'em up on the web if
you can't get them else where. I don't have a scanner so I thought I
might try faxing it to myself. Paul R.
(203) |
| Frank, There are
a couple of reasons for having a reversible motor on your lathe.
Grinding, spring winding, backing out taps and dies from the work,
and left hand tapping are the most common. Chucks on threaded
spindles do have the nasty habit of unthreading but in all the work
I have done, I only once did I have a chuck loosen up on me. Others
will tell you about bouncing a chuck down the bed and across the
shop but this usually happens only if the chuck wasn't set and/or
the spindle is operated at high RPM and then stopped suddenly or
reversed (instant reversing motors). Baldor motors are generally
good motors. Is it a single phase or three phase motor? Three phase
hook-up is straight forward. Single phase will depend on whether
your motor is to be wired for 115V or 230V operation. If you haven't
decided which, I will recommend 230V. First of all, you will have to
identify the leads coming out of the motor. They should have metal
tags (old) or white inked (later) numbers on the leads like T1, T2,
etc. A single phase dual voltage reversible motor should have: T1,
T2, T3, T4, T5, and T8. They are: T1, T2, T3, T4 - Run winding
leads, T5, T8 - Start winding leads. For 115V operation, the leads
should be wired: T1 + T3 - L1 (Line input) T2 + T4 - L2 (Line input)
T5 and T8 are wired to L1 and L2 and to reverse the motor, you
reverse T5 and T8 in respects to L1 and L2 For 230V operation, the
leads should be wired: T1 - L1 T4 - L2 T2 + T3 + T5 - (just wire nut
these together) T8 - L1 or L2 (depending on the motor rotation you
want) Now I cannot be sure of which model of Furnas drum switch you
have. If it is like most of the ones I see, when you take the cover
off there will be nine terminals arranged in three sets of three.
There will be three jumpers connecting the three terminals at one
side to the terminals on the other side. Two jumpers criss-cross and
one is a straight through. If it is like the one I mentioned, then
wiring for 230V single phase is easy. Send mean e-mail and I'll send
you a wiring diagram. If you have a different style of drum switch,
there may be a wiring diagram on the underside of the drum switch
cover. From that, you should be able to wire up your motor. Webb (204) |
| Frank, I posted a wiring diagram
for your reference.
Webb (205) |
| The Home Shop
Machinist May June issue 2000 has an article on how to make a thread
dial for a lathe and the information can be used to make one for a
SB 9". Ed (206) |
| WOW!! I couldn't
believe all of the help you guys gave me! I rewired my lathe today
and everything works GREAT including reverse. Thank you, wyman100
for your detailed instructions. They helped tremendously! Does
anyone happen to have a copy of the tread dial article? I could
pay postage and copy costs. I just finished turning down some
bushings for an English Wheel that I am helping my father build.
Frank (207) |
| Frank, I found the
"Projects" volume that has the threading dial project for a 9" SB.
Send me your U.S. mail address and I'll send you a copy. I was going
to get someone to scan it in for me, but that would take a while.
Paul R. (208) |
| Frank, I have the
article on the thread dial making send me your address and I will get
it off to you Ed (209) |
| Frank, I have posted a wiring diagram for a Furnas Drum
Switch for 115 volt operation. Webb (211) |
| Spindle Forward
Reverse switch |
| A while back I bought a 9" Model A mounted on
a metal cabinet stand with the underneath drive unit. I am just now
starting to get it cleaned up and running. My question is whether or
not my Forward/Reverse switch is wired correctly. When in Forward,
the spindle (Looking at it from the tailstock) turns in the
Clockwise direction. This seems backward to me. When going forward,
shouldn't it spin in the counter clockwise direction so the cutting
is done on the top edge of the tool bit? Mike
(347) |
| Mike, Yup, sounds
backwards. Paul R. (348) |
| Wiring diagram
|
| I have a1/2hp
motor, it has 4 stud w/nut terminals. The control switch mounts on a
gear cover of the headstock. This switch is "forward-0-reverse"
(left to right). Inside the switch box are 3 rows of 3 terminals,
the left and right sides are connected by several soldered in jumper
wires (factory done)? How does all of this go together. David
(1443) |
| David, you're going
to have to supply more information and even then it is going to be
difficult for any one to give you accurate and reliable
instructions. Is this motor a 120240 VA. model or a straight 120VAC?
I can tell you this though. The direction the motor is turning is
determined by the start winding which is two wires. The start
winding is connected in parallel with the run winding. This winding
is switched out of the circuit by a centrifugal switch when the
motor gets up to run speed. The motor is reversed by swapping
polarity of the start winding with respect to the run winding. The
fact that you have only 4 terminal studs on the motor leads me to
believe it's a 120VAC model only. An Ohmmeter would be useful here
to determine you wire pairs. It may be helpful to contact the
manufacturer of the motor for wiring instructions. Did you look on
the motor access plate to see if there is any information there?
Chris (1448) |
| Automatic
Starter switch 13" SB help |
| I have a 13" 1939 model High School
Classic. Went to use it the other day, nothing happened, after some
trouble shooting I determined that the automatic starter switch was
not working. I have a lever for off, forward and reverse; (I call it
a railroad switch?) and a start and stop button mounted over the
lathe. It worked fine for about a year, then yesterday nothing.
Determined the stop start buttons were making contact OK. So went to
the relay box and sure enough the coil that snaps the switch closed
when you press the start button and then open when you press stop
was not doing anything. It has voltage to one side of this coil,
nothing on the other terminal, so seems like the coil is bad.
Further research in the cover of the box reveals replacements parts
list to include an "operating coil", the coil has a part no. on it,
69A113, 208v 60 cycle. Any advice will be appreciated, will head to
www to find Allen-Bradley for replacement part and try that, less
someone in our group has an idea. In the interim have wedged a piece
of wood to hold the relay in closed position and used the lathe most
of the afternoon yesterday & nothing smelled bad, so assume I
am OK, but think I am probably overriding the relay kick-out
feature? Big tom (1212) |
| Tom, are you
running single or three phase? My 13" has a single phase motor and
doesn't have a starter/ contactor. I just have the forward/ off/
reverse drum switch and that makes things simple. Check
McMaster-Carr or Grainger if you need parts for the starter.
Chris (1213) |
| Tom, chances are
the switch is just an extra on off switch. This would prevent the
motor from starting after a power failure, or as a safety
precaution. It can quite possibly left the way it is or just
removed. The barrel switch (railroad) switch is all that is needed
to operate the motor, and is standard on most units. (1216) |
| Tom, I've
just done a 3 phase to single phase conversion on my lathe. So I've
got fair idea of your situation. By wedging the switchgear relay
closed your lathe will operate OK with your forward/off/reverse
switch. But you're right! Your STOP button won't stop anything
anymore. The START button closes the relay to start your lathe and
the relay hold up through a set of it's own contacts and the STOP
button. Push the STOP button releases the relay, lathe stops,
circuit's now ready for the START button again. Simple hey!! You
probably have blown the relay's coil. But I wouldn't trust just
measuring the voltages either side of the coil. Disconnect the wires
on the coil (with the power off) and measure the coils resistance.
My coil is about 700 ohms. But that's for 415V. Yours should be
somewhat less than that. Certainly, if you read open circuit, the
coils definitely gone. If you can measure some resistance then check
all the contacts with an ohmmeter. I wouldn't go poking around live
AC circuits unless I really needed to - AC is DEADLY!! (Remember
that old joke - Q) What's black and crisp and hangs from the ceiling
- A) An amateur electrician). If you can't obtain a replacement coil,
swap the whole switchgear relay. That's what I did. They're mostly
all the same. 1 x coil and 4 x sets of 'normally open' contacts. If
you're the least bit unsure of what you're doing ask an electrician
- they charge less than mortician!! Oh BTW! I did get a sparky to
check mine before I switched it on! Bill (1217) |
| Here is were I am. Coil is open, i.e. infinite
resistance. It should have some resistance, and not be open. Talked
to the the place who sold me the lathe, Noel Dempsey, Dempsey Co,
Richmond, VA, he has some 13's he is parting out and thinks he
probably has the part, also contacted my friend at Plaza Machinery,
Joe Bergamo, he too thinks he might have the switch. What Dempsey's
said was the 3 phase converter puts out about 220 volts and the coil
is rated for 208 volts and if its a bit weak it can and does go.
Apparently this is not too uncommon. Allen-Bradley still stocks the
coil for about $64, Ugh!, but least you can get it. I will try to
get the whole automatic starter unit. Will post after I install new
coil to let you know if this fixed it. big tom
(1229) |
| Here is the
outcome on the Automatic Starter failure on my 13" SB. Obtained a
replacement from a used parted out SB, ck it and it was not open,
had some resistance, Installed it and starter circuit worked just
fine. Cheked the voltage across the coil and it was about 240v, seems
high, but this was line current without the third leg being
generated, i.e. phase converter off. Coil is rated at 208v, so
herein could be the reason it blew out? Guess we will see how long
it lasts. Have determined that it is merely a switch and does not
defeat the two circuit breakers in the switch. Anyone know anything
about the voltage and whether there is a fix here let me know. Again
thanks to Bill and several others for the assistance. big tom (1237) |
| Tom, Glad to
hear you've fixed your problem. As to the fact you're reading 240V
across the coil - I wouldn't worry too much about that. The coil
would have been designed to handle small fluctuations in line
voltage. I did a quick calc on your readings. I had to think back 30
years to my early training. My AC theory and DC theory may be a
little rusty! You haven't stated the resistance of your coil, but if
we take my coil at 700 ohms at 415 volts using the formula I = E/R
my coil draws about 600 mA ( a bit over half an amp). If we assume
yours should draw about the same current, your resistance will be
about 300 ohms (at 208V). From that, if we take your actual line
voltage 240V the current drawn is about 800 mA (I = 240/300). That
sought of difference at those voltages shouldn't burn out your coil.
These calcs are for DC. With AC you have to consider other factors
like impedance, inductance, etc, but the figures are fairly close.
In my experience, in the old electromechanical telephone switches,
coils will burn out if you look at them the wrong way (just to spoil
your day). In truth they wear out just like any other part. Stop
worrying about your coil and start making chips! Bill (1243) |
| Bill,
ck with ohm meter, about 1 ohm????, even disconnected one lead to
ensure I was not getting a read through a wire or something, must be
something wrong, certainly would not have 240 amps running thru
this, good grief. Must be something is wrong with meter. However
lathe works just fine and will continue to use it, if the coil goes,
so it goes. Anyway I now fundamentally understand the switching
function of this device to include the two overheating kick outs.
Will let all know if it blows again, and ck with Dempsey about
another back up. Bill are you in Australia? big tom
(1247) |
| Tom, Yes I come
from the land down under! I live in the south western suburbs of
Sydney and work a couple of miles from the Olympic site. I'm on this
list because I own a Hercus model 'C' 9" lathe, which is a clone of
the South Bend model 'C' (see pics in the 'Files' folder). They say
that imitation is the sincerest form of flattery! I would check your
ohmmeter! 1 ohm is not far off a short circuit. Unless you have
other components in the circuit like a large resistor, 1 ohm across
240v would at least dim the lights of every house for a couple of
blocks around you, apart from making your lathe glow red (57.6 KW -
P=ExI) I've done some further checking since my last reply. I
checked the resistance of the 240v coil of the switchgear I
installed to convert my lathe to 240v from 415v. It's about 650
ohms. So the current drawn by that is only about 370 mA. The old
coil rated at 415v was 700 ohms, so in hindsight I probably could of
gotten away with rewiring the old switchgear. The old switchgear
incorporated the thermal overload breakers. Luckily the new 240v
motor had it's own overload breaker and I didn't have to worry about
that when I swapped switchgears. Bill (1255) |
| Bill, Well finally
got a hold of a digit volt-ohm meter, my coil on the starter switch,
13" SB is 685 Ohms, so at 240v its drawing about 350 mA based on
your analysis. Working fine so far. I will see if plaza machinery
has located another replacement just to have a back up. again thanks
for the assistance. I might not have mentioned that when I went back
to Dempsey Machinery in Richmond, VA, to pay for the coil, I wound
up buying the whole rest of the partially parted out 13" SB, got a
nice drum switch, bed, headstock with spindle, motor, base, apron
with most parts for $80 which included the coil. Will put some of it
on ebay, but most is too heavy to ship. Also will be purchasing a
new meter. big tom (1298) |
| Tom, I'm glad
to hear it was your ohmmeter that was wrong and you have what looks
like a normal coil. Good deal an spare lathe. Good idea on selling
your spare bits on Ebay. Say why don't you sell each part 2 or 3
times. Take their money and don't ship the parts to anybody. You
could change your name to Al and... Oh hang on that's already
been done! Seriously, it's hard to imagine someone like Al Babbin
and companies like Dempsey Machinery existing in same world. But
what the heck, we have our share of rogues and con men here in Aus.
too. Bill (1301) |
| 1953 South Bend
Wiring |
| I have a 1953 South
Bend Lathe with a GE Model No. 5KC45AB1421,1/4Horse Power; Single
Phase;TypeKC;1725 RPM;115 Volt; 4 Amp.;60 Cycle Motor and a Furnas
Switch Type RSB44. Motor has 5 wires Numbered 1,2,3,4,5 . Anyone
have knowledge how to wire power supply to Switch then Switch to
Motor. I have tried South Bend to no avail ,as well as a couple of
local rewinding shops and Home Shop Machinist message board. Furnas
Switch has six terminals,3 on right side,3 on left side. Switch is
neutral in center position. I can't read Schematics, but line
drawings showing location of each numbered wire from motor to switch
and from switch to power supply would be most helpful. Mike (6400) |
| Mike I don't have
anything which lists the specific motor and switch you mention. I do
have form 645A from SB (undated, but likely from the mid 1950's,
since that is the vintage of my lathe). Only one picture shows a 5
wire motor labeled 1-5 with a Furnas drum switch. The chart refers
to the motor as a "GE capacitor type KC, instant reversing, single
phase", which partially matches yours as far as it goes (you didn't
mention instant reversing) . The controller shown is a "No 789
Furnas drum switch RSB 5". It has two rows of 3 contacts, as you
describe (but many of them do). If you want I can describe the
configuration (I don't have a scanner) and you can try it. Frank
(6401) |
| Please describe
wiring. My motor is instant reversing also. Thanks. I noticed from
some literature, that right side of Furnas switch is usually
designated from top to bottom A,B C Left side D,E,F. If you can
describe each wire number that goes to each letter, I think I'll be
able to follow it. Also, please tell me what letters the power leads
go to. Mike (6402) |
| Mike If the drum
switch contacts are: D A E B F C viewed with the handle at the top,
then connect as follows. motor connection 1 to F motor connection 2
to E motor connection 3 to D motor connection 4 to B and C (jumpered
together) motor connection 5 to one side of the AC line switch
connection A to the other side of the AC line If you want the motor
to go the other direction for a given switch position, reverse motor
connections 2 and 4. When you try it I wouldn't leave it connected
very long if the motor doesn't start rotating right away. If this
isn't the right connection I expect it would be easy to fry the
motor if left connected for any duration. Frank (6403) |
| You mentioned
schematics, if you have schematics, post them in the photo's
section. It should be very easy to wire if you do have them. That is
if they are the motor schematics. The drum switch might also have
them, but that is not too important as you can figure that out with
a continuity tester. A 5 wire is typically on for neutral (or power)
that goes direct and not through the switch. then there would be 2
wires that go from the power (or neutral) to the motor direct. then
2 that get reversed. swapping those two would determine direction.
The complication comes if the motor is dual voltage. Dave (6406) |
| The schematic I
mentioned was from a internet source for general wiring of Drum type
switches. As related, all I know is 5 wires coming out of motor
numbered 1,2,3,4,5 and Drum Switch. I failed to mention that
terminals E Fon Drum Switch are jumped. Mike (6410) |
| Tried your wiring
plan. Got motor to "Hum" on forward, shorted out on reverse. Drum
Switch was already jumped at terminals E F. I changed to C D.
Mike (6411) |
| Correction on my
last e-mail. I jumped B C as you advised. Mike
(6412) |
| [snip] doesn't
start rotating right away. If this isn't the right connection I
expect it would be easy to fry the motor if left connected for any
duration. To prevent the magic smoke from escaping from any of the
components, temporarily wire a 100 watt light bulb in series. If you
miswire something to create a dead short, the worst that happens is
the bulb lights to full brightness. If you wire it correctly, the
motor should start turning if there's no load. A 100 watt bulb will
limit the current to just under 1 amp maximum. Ken (6414) |
| Mike See if you can
find a schematic of the specific motor you have. If you can find
that I expect we can figure out how to run it with the switch you
have. I would try calling GE and see if they can supply a schematic.
I wonder if the rewinders you spoke to have a reference showing
schematics, even if they don't necessarily know how to hook it up
with your controller. Don't worry about not being able to interpret
the schematic yourself. Just get a copy, and either scan it or mail
it. If you can't come up with a schematic, do you have an ohm-meter,
or know somebody from whom you can borrow one? If you can supply
resistances between various motor connections I expect we can take a
better guess at reasonable connections. You will need to measure all
combinations of the motor connections, and check "zero" ohms on the
meter (by connecting the leads) to make sure the relatively low
resistances you are measuring are reasonably accurate. Actually, if
you find an ohm-meter, determine which connections on the switch are
connected to which others when the switch is in each of the 3
positions (I expect that none of the connections are connected to
any other in the center position). I have one schematic for a Furnas
drum switch, and it seems to imply they are all the same, but it is
worth verifying. Frank (6415) |
| Ken I agree the
100W bulb (or other resistance) in series is a good general
technique. I don't like series resistance as much for motor testing,
since it can prevent the motor from starting. My experience is that
it is pretty hard to damage a motor with the voltage it was designed
to run on (i.e. 110V on a known, 110V motor) if the voltage is only
applied for a few seconds, since the damage mechanisms are thermal,
and the thermal masses are generally large (i.e. it takes longer for
the magic smoke to escape). Frank (6416) |
| I got it wired. For the record
it goes like this. D-No.2 A-No.1 E B-No.4 F-No.3 C-Hot Line No.5
wire- Neutral Line. Terminals E F are jumped. Motor wired for
Clockwise rotation. Instant start up. Runs very smooth in both
directions. Mike (6418) |
| Forward/reverse
switch wiring diagram |
| Does
anyone know how to wire the forward/reverse switch for a SB9C?I have
it wired to operate in forward but would also like to have reverse
capabilities.
Bill (7695) |
| Are you using
3 phase or single phase power? John (7697) |
| John, I am
using single phase. The motor is 1/2 hp.110/220v Capacitor start. The
motor has reverse capabilities. Bill (7700) |
| Bill I was going to
go home and look at my motor and drum switch but decided to go a
Google search first. Take a look at the following site:
http://www.metalwebnews.com/howto/elec-mtr/elec-mtr.html
I just skimmed it but it looks like everything you need to know is
there. I haven't checked the diagrams (they are in ASCII) I'll try
to draw up a better diagram tonight. I don't think there are enough
poles in the drum switch to switch both leads and get reverse as
well, therefore you have to make sure that the hot wire is the
switched wire. This will work at 110V but I'm pretty sure it can't
be done at 220V. At least not in a safe manner. One thing you should
note is that you won't get true reversing with single phase. The
motor will run in either direction but you have to wait for it to
completely stop before reversing. John (7707) |
| John, thanks for
the information and link. I added the url to my favorites and also
saved the page for further viewing. I must say the ASCII drawings are
hard to understand and read. Bill
(7708) |
| John. BTW I will
be using the motor on 110v.I don't have 220 service in my shop yet. I
am trying to get everything set back up. I just moved to a new
location. Bill (7709) |
| Bill, Have you
looked on the inside of the drum switch cover? Both of my lathes had
wiring diagrams glued inside the switch cover that showed how to
wire up two different types of motors. Check there and if you don't
find what you need, I'll copy mine and post it for you. Glen
(7713) |
| Glen. Took off
the cover and yep there it was. Boy do I feel stupid. It was right
under my nose all this time. I never even thought to look there
before. Bill (7714) |
| Reverse switch
|
| Where can I find a
forward/reverse switch for my 9c? I thought I had seen pictures of
them mounted on 9a's and 9b's. Rich (8774) |
| Rich You can find
reversing switches at WW Grainger. They are in most cities. You have
to be a business to buy there but any business card will do it. They
have gears, motors and all sorts of cool stuff. They give you a huge
catalogue for free. max
(8780) |
| That switch
is a common "drum switch" it is available at any electric supply
house. It can be used to reverse both single phase and three phase
motors. You will need to know the horsepower of the motor and the
voltage at which you are going to operate it to select the switch.
RC (8783) |
| What's this
switch for? |
| I picked up a
9" model A tonight. Seems to work ok, will need a lot of help
rebuilding though. She's a CL344ZD, sn 52561NKR9. The motor has been
replaced with a Leeson 110V, and there is a switch in the middle of
the stand that says forward and reverse, but isn't hooked up. Is
this a power/direction switch? Also, where can I get manuals and
such. Almost every handle on it has a ton of backlash, including the
feed. The bed is in good shape, and it does run. But there is work
to be done. Steve
(10688) |
| Sounds like you got
the product of a Saturday afternoon electrical job. often if a
switch goes, the cost of a replacement is so high, people will use
what is laying around. or bypass it for a variable speed drive. it
seems to me that I see a lot of drum switches mounted on the
headstocks. (10694) |
| Hard to tell what
the switch is for and if you can use it, without a little more info.
you will need to know if the motor is reversible ( look at nameplate
or wiring diagram). most if not all SB came standard with a
reversible motor but this was with the standard f/o/r switch (
forward/off/reverse) switch to control the motor. the wiring
diagrams are in the files here on the board. if you have a standard
SB switch and reversible motor you can probably rewire for this use.
many motors are non-reversible and if you need that feature you are
better off to get a motor made for it - they aren't usually much more
expensive than the non-reversible -on the used market. if the motor
is not reversible you can replace or use as-is, just skip the SB
switch or remove it until you want to go both ways. i use reverse
very sparingly and seldom under load ( this tries to spin the chuck
off the threads.) it is useful for things like backing up for
threading and some other stuff though. (10696) |
| The reversing
switches have some uses, but on a lathe with a threaded spindle there
is always the possibility of unscrewing the chuck or faceplate if
you run it in reverse. I avoided the temptation By removing the drum
switch, and installing a regular toggle switch, in an ordinary
electrical box, near the tailstock end of the lathe. (You may not want
yours that far down, my machine has a 3' bed) Locating the switch away
from the headstock means you don't have to reach past the rotating
parts to stop the thing. The person who installed the single phase
motor on yours may have taken one look at that switch and just shook
their head. Its a triple pole double throw switch capable of
reversing either a single phase or a three phase motor, within its
horsepower rating. Without the diagram its a head scratcher to hook
up on a single phase motor. You have to go into the terminal box of
the motor and bring out the start circuit leads. Those leads are
connected to the drum switch so their polarity will be reversed. The
third pole of the switch is used to make and break the run circuit.
Not a pleasant Saturday afternoon for those unfamiliar with this
sort of thing. Rob
(10697) |
| Clarke, Tell me about it!
When I got my lathe the motor was a non runner. I got a good
reversing motor to replace it, but spent not only an unpleasant
Saturday, but into Sunday too, and never figured the thing. In the
end, I got a decent new NVR switch and went for the one way
operation. The big fat red stop button is an easy hit now. The
little clamp bracket with the set screw that held the original SB
switch onto the front of the ways, I now used as an adjustable stop
marker. Len (10699) |
| Steve There should
be a schematic inside the cover of the switch and one on the motor
detailing which leads get power and which leads are changed to
reverse the motor. Send me these two schematics and I will try and
figure it out for you. max Now own a project lathe, what's this
switch for? (10700) |
| I don't see any
schematics on the switch anywhere, so I took some pics of it and put
up a temp webpage for you to check out. The motor is a 110V leeson
single phase that claims it is capable of CW or CCW rotation,
whether it will shift "on the fly" is another question all together.
The drum switch (?) has 6 leads coming out from it (3 phase days?)
Anyway you can check out the pics
at http://www.turningwood.com/southbendswitch.htm Steve
(10712) |
| Its the same as the
switch on my SB9 from the 50's take a look at this page there's a
butch of pics of the shop there about half way done you'll see some
pics of the southbend and where it mounts on mine I've seen a few
others with this same switch. Some where I've got schematics on how
to wire it, My motor will not reverse anymore and its not weird to
spec now so I can't just look but I'll try and find what I have in
the CD pill. The Wood Dragon (10715) |
| No, all that is
there is correct. All the leesons I have dealt with have either 6 or
8 wires, all 110/220 single phase. the individual wires are the
motor windings. nothing funny with this. The Tx numbers are their
manufacturing standard. re-read the motor nameplate. See where it
says interchange wires T3 T5 to change rotation. applies to both
voltages. No look at your drum switch. you should play with it with
a test light or a VOM/ continuity tester. PLEASE use a low voltage
test light. If you must use 110V, BE CAREFUL! what you are NOT
showing is the drum itself. It will probably look like to copper "F"'s
, one inverted and backwards nested into the other. That is really
the business end you need to look at. you can see the bottom of the
fingers in the open shot. By the way, the one on the 'top' looks
REALLY worn. You should consider replacing the whole thing. They are
only $35 or so from Grainger, McMaster Carr, etc...cheaper than a
new motor or your health. assuming 110V, you really only have 4
wires to deal with "T1/T8", "T2/T4", T3 T5 these are marked on the
wires themselves. You need to figure out which terminals are common
and which are criss crossed. For sake of discussion, we will number
the terminals like this- 1 2 x 3 4 x 5 6 x notice the jumpers across
the terminals from 1x, 3x, 5x. I think you can interchange those
terminals. in fwd (CW) position you will find that terminals 1 3 5
are continuous and 2 4 6 in reverse (CCW) 1 4 5 and 2 3 6 are
continuous. so you will wire it 1 hot 2 neutral (power cord) 3
T3 4 T5 (to motor) 5 T1/T8 6 T2/T4 (to motor) i may have cw/ccw
mixed up. I have to look at the lathe to figure it out. But I think
you get the idea now. If you can, post a pic of the drum itself to be
sure. dennis
(10717) |
| Can you get a
picture of the wiper (rotating part). I need to know if there is
some internal connection or if they just connect terminals. Jim
B. (10720) |
| Near the end of the
Army's South Bend lathe manual is a wiring diagram for the standard
South Bend single phase drum switch. This site offers a free
download of the manual.
http://metalworking.com/DropBox/_2001_retired_files/sbarmylathe.pdf Rich (10721) |
| I have posted
internal "guts" pics of the switch. Steve (10724) |
| I have posted
the pics and run continuity checks across the pins. For the sake of
argument, I have numbered them sequentially (9 contacts total) 123
456 789 There are physical wires coming out of 1,2,4,5,7,8 The
jumper wires go from 1-3 4-9 7-6 Numbers show where I get tome With
the switch in off 1-3 4-9 7-6 Reverse 1-2-3 4-8-9 7-5-6 Forward
1-2-3 4-5-9 7-8-6 (10725) |
| SB 9 motor
Switch Diagram |
| Clint,
Here is one more piece of info that might be useful. Please be kind,
I've been up late drawing this out. Webb (10894) |
| I've been up
late drawing this out. The orientation of that drawing could be
misleading to the unknowing. Drum switches are usually oriented ABC
in the vertical mode. The drawing shows it in the horizontal mode.
No problem for someone familiar with the scheme. Somewhat confusing
to a non electrical person trying to connect those wires. RC (10897) |
| Can you actually
buy the replacement switches from SB? I would like to "restore" my
lathe and want to use the same switch.(10900) |
| Does SB sell
replacement switches for the lathes? I would like the same drum
switch as what came with it, for nostalgic purposes. Steve (10901) |
| Webb and all, I
added a bit of detail to the switch picture showing the contact
action and motor coil/switch names. RichD (10902) |
| I have a revised and I hope, improved diagram based on
the suggestions posted here. Webb (10905) |
| At the risk of being boring, I have included a 230V
single phase version for those who wish to wire their lathe for 230
Volts. Webb (10912) |
| Asbestos & Old
Switches |
| I was cleaning up
the old electrical to my recently acquired SB 9. Upon removing the
cover to the 1946 Cutler-Hammer rotary drum switch, I noticed a 2"
wide, 1/16" thick liner of asbestos tape probably for heat/spark
protection in a friable condition no less. I carefully placed a
layer of electrical tape over the broken areas of asbestos tape.
Just wanted to let you all know, be careful with old electrical
items, the can contain asbestos. Also take caution when blowing with
compressed air, items which may contain asbestos. Eric
(11486) |
| Wiring motor
to reversing drum switch |
| I'm trying to wire up my 9" South Bend. I have a G.E. capacitor start single phase motor. It is a four lead type I
believe. The drum controller is from Arrow, Hart and Hegeman Electric
Co. size 0. I'm not an electrician so if anybody could give me a
clear and simple wiring schematic to attach these to together for
forward and reverse I'd really appreciate it. I have the wiring
schematic for the switch but it really doesn't explain which wires
are which. Unfortunately I don't have the wiring schematic for the
motor. Bill
(11769) |
| Bill, I have
the exact problem as well. Hope someone will post a wiring diagram.
I have a single phase 1/2 HP GE motor and a Cutler Hammer reversing
drum switch. Eric (11789) |
| Bill Wiring
up your motor would be a cinch if you have an ohm or continuity
meter. You have the wiring schematic for the drum switch which ought
to be easy to follow, probe around with the meter to verify contacts
behave as you understand the schematic. Check your work before
plugging it in and switching on. Now the 4 lead motor and don't
forget the 5th lead which is the green ground wire.. Two of the
leads are the motor windings and will check out to have about 2 and
1/2 Ohms and the other pair will be wired direct (except for the
mechanical switch inside the end of the motor), one wire to each
terminal of the motor start capacitor. Between the two wires will be
2 or 3 megaohms resistance. So to run the motor connect a capacitor
lead to one motor winding lead and the other capacitor lead to the
other motor winding lead. Motor will then run in one direction. To
run the motor in the other direction you will be wiring in the drum
switch to swap the motor capacitor lead positions.. . You have no
problem you cant readily figure out on your own. Worst screw-up I did
to have a similar problem was one time I removed my 3 phase motor
from the top of my vertical mill and sat it on the mill table. I did
that to change the pulley belt and then I bumped the motor off the
table and because the wires were only so long it ripped all 7 wires
out of the motor terminal block. The drum switch on that machine
gives me two speeds in each direction. It took me an hour of head
scratching and probing with a multimeter to get it sorted out. I am
not an electrician either. Steven (11793) |
| I have a sheet that
shows 6 different wiring diagrams. They cover the following: Furnas
drum switch with GE motor single phase, Furnas drum switch with
Westinghouse motor single phase, Cutler Hammer drum switch with
Westinghouse motor single phase, Cutler Hammer drum switch with 3
phase motor, Cutler Hammer drum switch with 2 phase motor, Cutler
Hammer drum switch with GE motor single phase. I do not have a way
to scan them so I can either fax or mail them. Please advise if
interested. Rose Marvin (11795) |
| Rose, If no one
else offers, I can scan in your documents and place them in the
group (assuming its okay with LeBlond). Paul R.
(11796) |
| Thanks Rose and
Paul for the wiring diagrams. Now to see if I can figure them out.
The top left diagram appears to be the closest to what I have. I just
wonder if the number sequence is just for orientation. On my motor
the number sequence seems to be reversed. I also have no numbers 1
or 6 . Where these numbers are are where I believe the AC power is
connected. Bill(11952) |
| Cutler hammer
drum switch |
| I
have a 10" heavy. It came with a 3ph motor I am changing it to a 1ph
motor. does anybody have a wire diagram for using the existing drum
switch to rewire for the new motor. Dan
(14349) |
| If you go to the
South Bend Lathe Pix @
http://f1.grp.yahoofs.com/v1/wE2FP8NoKtbM2KbHC-prh1-BrElM2yVXGOaOBwDvsj_DsllquqLn-wSW2Gv9CDcu-zokmHV-SKj9oy0nAAhfTOnql7rHnY9mzTpqnQ/Specs_and_Tech_Info/SBL_MotorWiringP1.jpg there is a schematic that may be of help. I've also saved it as a
Word document on my hard drive. Dave
(14350) |
| Try this:
http://tinyurl.com/qb41 And http://tinyurl.com/qb43
Scott Logan (14351) |
| Scott, Thank you
for adding the shortened "tinyurl". I don't know how to do the
tinyurl thing. I didn't think the post would work as typed; that's
why I offered to send it to him electronically. Dave
(14359) |
| Check this url:
https://www.logsa.army.mil/etms/data/A/047809.pdf On page 62 is a
basic schematic of a drum switch for a single phase motor for a
South bend 9 and 10k. Steve
(14363) |
| Dan, A month or two
ago I uploaded a copy of the wiring diagram I found inside my Furnas
drum switch to the Files section of this board. It shows about 6 or
8 different hookups for various types of motors including a 3 phase
"Y". It is in several different file formats so you should be able
to view at least one of them. I would assume that other brands of
drum switches are much the same. One thing you must be sure of is
that it is rated for the voltage and current involved. Voltage is
probably OK but check current carefully or it is in danger of
burning up. Current will be higher with a single phase motor of the
same hp. As I said, this is a copy of the original. I tried to
reproduce it exactly as I wanted to mount it in the original
location after cleaning and repainting the switch cover. I even used
similar fonts. My original is now a pile of pulp that's been flushed
out of the bottom of the ultrasonic cleaner. Paul A. (14392) |
| Dan, I changed my
motor and have the same switch. The wiring is motor dependant. The
top contacts are the on/off and the lower two act as a reversing
switch for a single phase motor. Send me the motor wiring and I can
create a schematic for you. jperkins@metrocast.net
(14395) |
| 9C workshop
forward/reverse switch |
| While
cutting threads (no chasing dial) on my 9C workshop(1938) pedestal, I
lost the reverse side of my canister style switch that is mounted on
my rocking pedestal. Can these switches be repaired? Rick
(15027) |
| My experience is
that with these drum switches, the fingers wear out where the
contacts touch. Not really worth fixing considering that a Dayton
drum switch from Grainger or McMaster Carr is $35. dennis (15028) |
| You may be able to
get the switch going for long enough to finish the thread by using
an ignition file on the contacts. I would then proceed to replace
it. (Don't forget to unplug the machine). Reversing a lathe with a
threaded spindle isn't a real good practice. You can use a thread dial
or a carriage stop to catch threads, and replace the drum switch with
a regular switch. RC
(15034) |
| Electrical
switch heavy 10 |
| Would anyone out
there have a picture they could email us of a heavy 10 with a twin
lever gear box with either a push button or toggle lever reversing
switch mounted on the front of the lathe just below the pan? We are
currently restoring a 77 model, 4 1/2 foot bed and all we have in
the electrical is a square hole where it went. A picture of some of
the options of how South Bend put them out would be very helpful.
Our other lathe just like it the switch riser comes off of the back
of the bed at the head and this bed has no place for it.
Grumpy (16886) |
| Check in the FAQ in
the files section. Scroll down to drum switches.
SouthBendLatheFAQ.html If the answer isn't there, have a look inside
the drum switch on your other lathe. Both of mine had wiring
diagrams inside. Glen (16887) |
| Did you try the
files section of the group? There are wiring diagrams under techinfo
folder. dennis (16888) |
| I have a Heavy 10
with a secondary switch in the cabinet as well as the switch on top.
The lower switch is for the RARE South Bend option of an
independent motor for the gearbox. Look at my homepage for
pictures
http://home.pacbell.net/daveanne/index.html (16908) |
| Cutler-hammer
drum switch wiring |
| I know this subject
has been covered numerous times but I still can't find just what I
need. I am in the process of changing the old 3 phase motor on my
Heavy 10 for a modern Dayton 220 volt single phase unit. I have
downloaded all I can find on the matter, including the original
south bend instructions, but all applications show 4+ wires coming
from the motor to the switch. Per the diagram shown on the side of
the new motor, I am only left with 3 leads (2 hot, plus one neutral
to hook up to the switch. Also, my power supply from the breaker box
to the switch will be 2 hot plus one neutral. I suspect part of the
issue may be with the wiring to the start up windings but am not
sure. Mark (17502) |
| Mark, a 220 1 phase
motor can have as many as 3 coils and 7 wires available. What type
motor is it? What is the starting scheme? Is it a dual voltage
(120/220) motor? Slit phase, split phase cap start, etc. This info
is needed to help find the correct connection. RichD (17503) |
| I will collect the
specifics and re-post. Mark (17504) |
| I have posted a
picture of the motor plate in southbendlathepix. It is under
"photos" and is #28. The motor I am going to install is a Dayton,
6K305C, 1.5HP, 1PH, 115/230 volt, capacitor start, 1725rpm motor. It
has 7 connections available. These are listed P1, P2, T2, T3, T4,
T5, and T8. P1 is grounded to the motor frame, and the picture
listed above shows the recommended connections on the motor plate.
Mark (17505) |
| Mark, Are you sure
P1 is connected to the motor frame? Have you checked with an ohm
meter? Looks to me like it's for one side of the 220VAC line. T4,5
is the other 220VAC connection. RichD (17506) |
| I checked P1 and it
is NOT grounded to the frame. Any help on where I go from
here? (17508) |
| Mark- did you get
paperwork on the motor? It gives you instructions on what the wiring
is for your voltage? Just a thought, but you could call Grainger to
talk to their tech support folks. That motor is still in production.
You need to figure out the wiring of the motor and then that of the
switch to mate the two. dennis
(17509) |
| Mark, I can't make
out in the picture what the label says next to "P1" It sort of looks
like "Ungrd'd and Line". So, according to the label Pi is one side
of the 220 line and the T4/T5 tie points are the other side of the
220 line. Tie the others as shown and tape (insulate) as shown. This
is all under "Hi Voltage". The label is marked "115/220", a dual
voltage motor. Try that to get it running one way. If you want the
motor reversible....next discussion? RichD (17510) |
| It does say "Ungrd'd
line". I think I can get it running one way but the real challenge
is getting it running through the drum switch so that it is
reversible. The P1, P2, T1, T2 stuff must be some sort of industry
standard but my web searches so far haven't turned up anything. The
joker in the deck seems to be the starting windings and the
capacitor and how those are connected to the rotary switch. I got
the motor with the lathe and so don't have any documentation for it
other than what is printed on the face plate. Mark (17511) |
| I am
familiar with these. The P1 and P2 are hooked to the overload
protection device inside the motor. P1 takes the input lead and P2
comes from the overload device to provide a "protected" lead for low
voltage hook-up. the NEMA standard T1 lead is pre-wired to the
overload device. Just consider the P1 as the "protected" T1 lead.
This motor can be hooked-up to the Cutler-Hammer drum switch either
as a 115V or 230V operation. IS there a particular reason you want
to do it in 230V? Anyway, you can contact me off-line grotto-man
"at" erols "dot" com. Webb
(17512) |
| Mark, Take the T5
and T8 separately to the switch. More later. The switch should have a
minimum of 3 sections. Find the section that has only 2 terminals
with the rotating part (drum) shorting between the 2 terminals when
rotated F or R only. This is where 1 AC line connects and then to
the P1 terminal. This turns the power on/off. The remaining sections
form a reversing function and can be built several diff ways
depending on the particular switch model. The T5 and T8 wires
connect thru the switch and then to the T2/3 and T4 motor wires.
Throwing to F or R reverses the connections. Study the mechanical
build and action of the switch to figure out how to connect it up.
It's not that difficult. RichD (17513) |
| I got mine wire up
using info from this site:
http://shop.emotorstore.com/estore/TD_Schematic_Diagrams.asp?
Ed (17514) |
| My guess would be
the extra wires are due to the reversing drum switch, not fancy
number of coils. At 01:05 PM 2/29/2004 -0500, you wrote: Mark, a 220
1 phase motor can have as many as 3 coils and 7 wires available.
What type motor is it? What is the starting scheme? Is it a dual
voltage (120/220) motor? Slit phase, split phase cap start, etc.
This info is needed to help find the correct connection.
RichD (17517) |
| Drum Switch
Wiring |
| Does anyone have a
wiring diagram for a drum switch connected to a motor wired for 220
volts single phase they can email me. Tom (19625) |
| But be careful
using a wiring diagram that isn't original to your switch. I just
rewired an old switch. The diagram wasn't legible so I started to
use the diagram from my newer switch on the other lathe. Almost as
an afterthought I got out my ohmmeter and tested the old switch to
verify their internal connections were the same. Surprise!. But much
better than being surprised at 110 volts. (19669) |
| Furnas
Reversing switch HP1 style R1A 220VAC wiring |
| I finally
converted my Peerless repulsion/induction motor to 230VAC after many
years of running my 9" SB Model A at 115VAC. And I'm trying to
figure out how to rewire my Furnas Reversing Switch for 230VAC....I
realize previous answers have been submitted on this but they all
seem slightly different than what I have: Peerless
repulsion/induction motor with leads T1, T2, T3, T4 only. 230VAC now
comes in on T1 and T4 with T3 and T2 jumpered together. Furnas
Switch: Fwd connects F1-R1, F1-F2, R2-R3, and F3-R3. Rev connects
F1-R1, R1-R2, F2-F3, and F3-R3. So my question is - where do I hook
up T1, T2, T3, T4 without creating smoke? Mort (23559) |
| Mort: Repulsion
start induction run motors are not electrically reversible. The
direction of rotation is set by the physical position of the
armature brushes. On yours, you can make it 110V or 220V by wiring
two windings in series (220) or in parallel (110). Your described
connection- with the two "taps" wired together- sounds correct for
220V. These old motors start like a universal motor (look at a
Dremmel) using brushes on a segmented commutator to set up a
fixed-geometry repulsion between stator and armature. Once up to
speed, a speed sensitive switch shorts out the commutator,
converting the motor to an induction type. If the centrifugal switch
doesn't change, the motor will continue speed up. Since back EMF is
not balanced to limit max speed, it may get fast enough to break
things. The Furnas switch should be used as a straight switch-
make/break for L1 and L2. With 110, you only need to switch one leg
but both need to be on 220. Leave T2 and T3 connected. Reversing one
leg won't make it run backwards but will make smoke. Somewhere on
the motor should be a mechanical connection that rotates the brush
position. This is what reverses these old motors. I suppose some may
have had an electrical reverse circuit (more than two brushes?) but
that would need access to more than the four wires you have. Bill PS- I am not an electrician. This is my understanding of
the system- no guarantees. I strongly suggest you find someone with
experience and training to give you a hand since I can't actually
see/test what you have. (23585) |
| Bill, after further investigation, your analysis is correct. I
need a T5 and T8 lead. The brushes are marked with small arrows and
rotate about an 1/8" to make the motor reverse. Bottom line, I have
an expensive on-off switch and have to reverse the lathe with the
reverse gear set. This, of course, makes cutting threads somewhat
difficult without investing in a new motor.
Mort (23595) |
