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Lathe - Taper Attachment

 
 

 

 
 
10k taper attachment installation (May 25, 2001) Taper attachment usage question (Jul 18, 2003)
Taper Attachment (Babbit) (Sep 20, 2001) Crossfeed Screw for Taper Attachment? (Aug 12, 2003)
SB Taper attachment part needed (Dec 14, 2001) No Taper set drawings (Aug 16, 2003)
Replacing taper att. cross feed screw (Feb 3, 2002) Telescoping taper attachment (Jan 24, 2004)
Mounting a Taper Attachment (Feb 22, 2002) Part for taper attachment (Feb 1, 2004)
Home Made Taper Attachment? (Apr 12, 2002) Taper Turning Attachment (Mar 23, 2004)
About taper attachments (May 11, 2002) Speaking of tapers (Mar 24, 2004)
Heavy 10 taper attachment? (Jun 16, 2002) Mass producing parts without a hydraulic taper attachment (Jun 26, 2004)
Make it yourself taper attachment (Jun 29, 2002) Longest normal taper cut on 9"/10" SBL? (Jul 15, 2004)
Smallest Lathe with Taper Attachment? (Jan 7, 2003) Taper att use (Oct 9, 2004)
Stiff Taper Turning Attachment on Heavy 10 (Feb 23, 2003) Taper attachment installation (Dec 24, 2004)
9A Taper attachment ? (May 14, 2003) Taper setup example (Feb 5, 2005)
Homemade taper attachment for 9" SBL (Jun 13, 2003) PM "make your own taper attachment" (Feb 8, 2005)
10K vs 9" Taper Attachment Difference (Jun 26, 2003) Photo or dimensions of taper part? (Mar 6, 2005)
 
10k taper attachment installation
I finally found a taper attachment for this lathe. It's all bolted up but there is a problem. Before I attack it and screw it up I thought I would ask you folks. All seems ok until I lock the attachment down to actually cut a taper. As I move the carriage from left to right the taper attachment binds on the attachments lower ways. I put a dial indicator on the extreme left end and found .080 movement. It flexes away from the bed as the carriage travels to the right. Somehow the attachment isn't parallel to the bed. My first thought is it is bent. I suppose that is possible. This is not a used taper attachment. I gives every indication of never having been mounted before, clean, cosmoline or some equivalent all over it, perfect flaking etc. The lathe isn't as nice as the attachment. There is some wear on the ways, not extreme but it exists. Could the carriage be worn crooked? Ray (699)
I should have also said I have removed the cosmoline, lubed the ways on the attachment and adjusted the gibs. Ray (700)
Ray First have you got a picture with it mounted. Next where you mounted it were there machined flats on the bed and pre-drilled and tapped mounting points. Next did you get the special cross slide and feed nut for the taper attachment. JWE (703)
Ray, Before you lock down the taper attachment you must first remove the screw that holds the crossfeed nut to the cross slide casting. This screw is found in the cross slide between the compound and the taper attachment. If you do not remove this screw, the taper attachment is trying to move the cross slide and the crossfeed nut is trying to hold it steady. Not a good thing. I hope this makes since to you. I have assumed this was not done because you have made no mention of removing the screw. If you have, please accept my apology and disregard the above advice. Kris (705)
No, I don't have a picture. It is mounted on the flats on the carriage in the predrilled holes. The long cross slide is there. I do not have the nut and screw. I will likely have to pay the long dollar to South Bend for that, but that's ok. I can't imagine the missing nut and screw on the cross slide causing the binding though. Ray (706)
No apology needed I am a newbie HSM and all this is an adventure for me :) The screw and nut for the cross slide is different than my old cross slide and as it turns out, it was not included with the attachment. No problem I am sure they are available from South Bend. The short answer to your question is the screw is out, because I don't have one. Ray (707)
Ok, as it turns out the stem that goes through the casting for the way clamp on the end was bent. It responded well to some gentle pressure from an arbor press. It appears the culprit is the casting itself. I now believe this was installed at some point (briefly) then removed (because it was binding :)). That could explain why a brand new taper attachment this old was unused. This unit came to me indirectly from a military auction. So it's not inconceivable it was shelved with no real effort to investigate the poor fit. With everything bolted up and the casting removed from the stem attachment is nicely parallel to the ways. When the clamp casting is slid back on the stem but not "clamped" to the ways, the V in the casting is parallel but set back from the ways. So if it was to be tightened it will pull the right hand end toward the ways. As a test fit I ended up putting a .0650 shim on the back side of the ways between the casting and the ways. Then clamped that baby down and the carriage moves nice as can be. So what to do with this casting. The hole bored in it appears to have a steel bushing. The bushing is drilled slightly off center. It would be very cool if I could rotate this bushing. It looks like there is enough eccentricity to get the casting properly located on the ways. Does anyone know if this is a bushing and is it moveable? I don't see any pins. I suppose it could be a shrink fit to the casting. Ray (713)
It's most likely poured babbit, Ray. Intended to be fitted for each lathe, if I understand the process correctly. There was a thread on this a couple of years ago on rec.crafts.metalworking - do a search on Dave Ficken on 24 Dec 1999. Mike (715)
Mike, I found the thread you mentioned. You are right it is babbit. So, now that that nasty old babbit is out of there. Oh yeah, I figured since I couldn't use the taper attachment this way anyway I would go ahead and melt it out. While it was heating I was considering where to drill the holes for the "repouring" when suddenly 2 holes appeared right where I needed them. How cool is that? :) Yup, the boys at South Bend even filled the holes and painted over them so they weren't visible at all. Well, they sure are visible now. I made a couple washers to plug the ends of the casting. I even made up a small pouring funnel that fit just right in the one of the holes. Made that from a convenient piece of aluminum. Looked great. On to reinstall the taper attachment and prepare for the pour. Handy washers in place to prevent leaks, covered all potential points of contact with white out as a release agent. Funnel in place, preheating the casting and funnel... begin melting the old babbit for the pour. So far so good. You won't find this in any book, so I'll share this with you, but keep it a secret. It's called the lost babbit process. Kind of like lost wax but better. You begin by heating the babbit to a molten state. Turn to pour, smack the pouring container against the bench and POOF the babbit is lost. Neat huh :) Yes, I had a full face shield and protective clothing. No harm here. No damage to the lathe or tooling. I was able to collet the vast majority of the babbit bits. But probably don't have enough for the job. The whole thing requires about a shot glass full. You know there I was little babbit tear drops all over the bench and I thought why not scrape them up and drop them into the funnel. Melt them in a few at a time. So I did. Now, I admit I didn't check this for sure, but I believe the melting point for babbit is way below aluminum. SURPRISE!! the torch didn't know that. :) By the way the white out really did work. What actual molten metal made it into the hole came right off. If you need me I'll be in the basement making a steel funnel. Just go to the top of the steps and yell "Hey stupid". My question now is will something like solder work? I could go ahead and make a bushing but this has become an adventure now. Ray (723)
Ok, I collected as much of the babbit as I could. Melted it down and added some real old plumbers solder to make up for what was lost. I did make a funnel of steel. While I was at it I made a pouring cup with a handle. From this point is was pretty elementary, like it should have been in beginning. I assembled the taper attachment to the lathe bed, gooped all the potential points of contact with white out. Installed the clamp with the large washers from yesterday and tightened everything up. Funnel in place, molten babbit in the handy pouring cup, preheat everything insight and pour. Go the the grocery store while things cool down. Come back to find everything works like the book says. Just bolt it on and cut tapers, I thought........ Well now it is truly fit to my lathe. Thanks for all the help from you folks. Hope you didn't mind all the updates. It only seemed fair to anyone that may need to do the same thing and has my limited experience to work with. It was fun, but definitely be careful. A shot glass full of this on your body would be brutal. Ray (728)
Good work, Ray, I'm going to ream out the babbit bearings on the countershaft for my 9" SB and try fitting oilite bearings and a new shaft. I'm hoping that will be easier than any other alternative. If that doesn't work, I was thinking of using JB Weld (or other metal filled epoxy) as a babbit replacement around the oilite bearings. Even after your wonderful description and success with babbit I keep thinking there's got to be something more modern to use, but babbit was there, babbit worked and no reason it shouldn't continue to work. I just don't know where one could purchase more babbit. Paul R. (732)
Taper Attachment (Babbit)
Can someone describe what the item 27, page 52, form# 922-D, part number 506x6, in the SB parts manual is, where it's located and what it's used for? The drawing looks like a block. The manual says it's Babbitt. Chris (1566)
Chris, I saw that too. Babbit is a metal mixture I believe of tin and lead. It is used for bearings. A lot of old cars had babbit bearings for their main bearings and probably on their rod bearings. These bearings from what I can gather had to be poured in place, then bored to size. I would believe that block of babbit in the SBL parts sheet is used to recast the bearing in the lead screw holder. People can correct me if I'm wrong. (1567)
Yes, I know what Babbitt is. What I don't know is how SB is using it in this exploded diagram. This item is part of the Taper attachment not the Lead Screw. Chris (1568)
Chris, The babbit is used in the right hand outer support of the taper attachment. This allows South Bend Lathe to align the support more easily. They simply overbore the hole in the outer support and when the taper is mounted and paper washers fitted as dams, the babbit is then poured into the bracket through one of the holes in the top of the bracket. The result is a perfectly aligned bracket. Any excess is filed flush with the surface and the bracket is then painted. Webb (1569)
Chris, I would guess that it might be used in the pivot point in the Taper attachment. Not sure without my taper attachment to disassemble. Not having my parts manual here at work, I guessed that you were referring to was the lead screw support. (1570)
Yes, that seems to solve my mystery. I thought I was missing something but now I know I'm not. Chris (1571)
SB Taper attachment part needed
I need the bracket that holds/clamps a taper attachment slide to the bed on a 13" south Bend. The Bracket that holds the collet rack to the bed will also work. (2435)
Such brackets are not actually all that hard to make - what you need to do is mill a rectangular notch in the end of a piece of stock, then fixture it as 45 degree to the mill head (tilting the head is best) and mill a V with the corner of a large endmill. Drill and tap the bottom for a clamp screw, and you have a quite serviceable rear way clamp. User the gearcover pivot bracket as a guide if you do not have anything else that attaches to your lathe in this manner. Chris  (2438)
Replacing taper att. cross feed screw
A friend recently acquired a SB 13" with taper attachment. He's been stripping it down cleaning it up. In doing so, he found the cross slide nut screw worn enough he felt they needed to be replaced. Cost of these is ridiculously high, so he grafted the new screw into the existing shaft and made a new nut with a replaceable bronze sleeve. He turned, bored and threaded the acme internal threads in the bronze sleeve using a home-made threading tool. Fitted the sleeve to a very close fit on the acme rod. Acme rod was the "precision" stuff from McMaster-Carr, with a black finish. He made a new cross slide nut to receive the bronze sleeve because the original didn't have enough meat to allow boring out. The sleeve was pressed into the new nut with an interference fit of 0.001", a flathead screw was added as insurance. He reports total backlash is 0.003". To say the least, he is quite pleased with it all. Photos of the graft between the screw and shaft and the new nut with sleeve are posted in the Photos section: http://photos.groups.yahoo.com/group/southbendlathe/lst?.dir=/SB13_Xslide_Sc rew_Fix .src=gr .order= .view=t .done=http%3a To fix this URL, because it will be broken, graft all the lines back together in an editor then paste into your URL/Location box. Or, just go here:http://groups.yahoo.com/group/southbendlathe/ Then click on PHOTOS, Then click on SB13_Xsl.... SB13_Xslide_Screw_Fix I'm posting this for him as he is lazy and a bit of a bozo when it comes to signing himself on the group. He has managed to sell and buy stuff on eBay, but cannot seem to fight his way thru the Yahoo signin procedure. Go figure :-) Rick K. (3068)
Mounting a Taper Attachment
I've come up with (eBay) a complete taper attachment/saddle/(large dial) slides assembly for a 9". Buying parted out stuff on eBay is a crap shoot, so not too surprising the carriage shows what seems to me like huge wear in the Vees (attached photo). What makes me think so is not only the (1/16") steps at the base of the Vee as shown in the photo, but wear marks from the inside Vee/Flat ways on the under side of the saddle. When I rest this saddle on my bed/ways, it rides on the inside ways as much or more than the outer Vees and oil on the rear outer Vee isn't spread to a thin film when the saddle is slide over the area. So, that saddle doesn't appear usable in its present condition. I'm thinking of mounting the taper attachment on my current saddle and using the crosslide from the taper attachment. Here is my first question: I've read here that a taper attachment has to be mounted at the factory, but I've not heard why. What are the critical alignment aspects that would require this, or put another way, that I'd have to do, to do it myself? There are two dowels on the rear of the saddle that determine the alignment, with the attachment held in place by two bolts. I'd guess that the primary issue is parallelism of the attachment bottom slide/rod with the bed in planes, horizontal and vertical. One plane (vertical), distance away from the bed is fixed by the mounts. That leaves horizontal, or elevation/height relative to the bed/ways. Couldn't I align this plane using an indicator along the bed, indicating the long flat surface of the bottom slide of the attachment? Then once aligned, clamp the bolts, drill ream the holes and insert dowels (these or new, larger ones if necessary)? The drilling and reaming could be challenging for me in my shop, but other than that, this doesn't seem like a factory required process. What am I missing? Rick K. Attachment: (image/jpeg) SaddleVee.jpg [not stored] (3353)
Rick, I think your observations and proposal seem true and good. I have a Heavy 10 with a taper attachment, and it also uses two dowel pins for location. I am guessing that what they do at the factory for alignment is very much like what you describe. On my taper attachment, it looks like the holes for the dowels were originally drilled all the way through the taper attachment casting. If yours is similar, you may be able to remove them, leaving a through hole. Once you have the attachment indicated in for both height and slope, you can tighten the two bolts and then use the through holes as guides for drilling new dowel holes into the saddle casting. (For access to drilling, it may be necessary to disassemble the pieces of the taper attachment after bolting it in place). I'm not sure of the best procedure for drilling/reaming. Maybe a transfer punch first, to get the hole started. I would probably just use the biggest drill that fits through the taper attachment hole on the first attempt, and then ream or enlarge for the dowel pins if necessary. If I were doing this, I would also call South Bend and ask the guy there if this technmique sounded OK. Their number is 219-289-7771. Jon (3356)
Randy Reynolds at South Bend can give you the lowdown on this. An acquaintance of mine recently mounted a taper to his 13. His experience encouraged me to pick up a TA for my heavy 10. I just got it and have not mounted it yet. It can be mounted by a HSM who can be patient and cautious. It is pretty involved but doable. SB has a set of 6 page instructions for the telescoping (form 1072) type of TA installation instructions. Yours, I believe, is non telescoping and may be another form #. The instruction call for alignment of all sliding parts, and there related perpendicular mounting surfaces to within .0005 (that is 3 zeros) parallelism. To achieve that some scraping of various surfaces may be involved to get it right. Randy described it more as "accurate careful filing". If you are an experienced scraper then it shouldn't be too difficult to mount it up. For a careful HSM it will be a learning curve, but I think doable if you are careful and don't rush the job. I am willing to bet it will require a considerable time investment to do it right. My friend is retired and he still does not have it quite like it should. So he is still working on it. I would expect several iterations of the process will be required when I get to it. If you get a complete mated taper attachment (screws, compound rest base, connecting bar, TA assy, bed clamp, etc from one lathe) all these components might possibly be in alignment such that your efforts may be reduced. You might also have to remove and repour the babbit in the bed clamp You go through the process of aligning everything and bolt it up tightly to the back of the bed. The final step is to use the dowel holes in the bed bracket as pilot holes to drill both the bed bracket and the bed, then ream them to slight undersize of the dowel, and drive the dowels into the bed. If your bed is already drilled then they won't be in the correct location for this "new" taper attachment. You'll have to drill an all new set of holes Mine is a complete set and my lathe has never had a TA fitted, so I am in luck. I'll report my efforts when I finish, but it will be attacked sometime in the future. I'd like to send my bed back for a regrind sometime in the future and may wait to mount it after that has been done. (3361)
Mark, excellent information. I had completely missed the babbitt in the bed clamp. I'll call Randy Reynolds (Jon Spear provided phone #) for that info. My TA is complete, including the saddle but the TA saddle is so badly worn, I don't think its usable. My saddle has never been drilled so I should be able to use the holes in the saddle bracket. I'll may have to clean up the cross slide top sliding surfaces as it is worn too, but I think that is doable. Rick K. (3362)
I might be way off base on this one, but couldn't you have the worn ways scraped an trued then shimmed back to the right elevation with something like a turcite facing? how much sticktion does the taper way need to function properly? I think that we have discussed this before, but I am not sure... something like this is what I am thinking- http://www.rakoinc.com/service.htm#Turcite  I got this link from a Google search, its not an endorsement. I think that you would have to send it out to a machine scraping service to have it done. They would be able to do the precision drilling too I think. I am having looking into having a tailstock repaired this way due to uneven wear on the ways. they quoted me somewhere between $100-150. I have not taken it in yet. nuts first. dennis (3363)
Thanks for the info on turcite, I've bookmarked it. I'd heard of turcite before, but didn't know much about it. Thru use of Google, I've located a local machine tool rebuilder that does it, but I've noticed the sign before of a rebuidling shop closer to me (must be others). I was not considering this approach because I didn't know much about it and it seemed more involved than just mounting the TA on my existing saddle. (BTW, its the saddle Vee grooves that are worn on the TA saddle, not the ways on my lathe.) Thinking out loud, to all of you: The turcite would need to be usable (applicable) at a thickness of about 1/16" as that is about the extent of wear in the saddle Vees. Also, given that much wear, I wonder if the TA is even still in alignment. There is no guarantee the saddle has worn downward and maintained 0.0003" alignment or that it would be "in alignment" when installed directly on my ways/bed. With the turcite application to the TA saddle to fix the wear, the TA would need to be realigned to my ways, in both axes, which would be just as much if not more work than mounting it to my existing saddle. Comment? Rick K. (3364)
I bought a Taper attachment for my 9" S/B off e-bay for $300. I guess I lucked out as it came from a school and was in pristine condition in fact i think it had never been used. I mounted it on and never looked back since and it works like a charm. The only thing I find is when I'l going to use it, I just apply enough pressure to the locking arm nut (that locks it in place on the ways) to hold it from moving. If I turn this lock nut too tight then it partially grabs and thus puts pressure on the clutch as you move down the cut. Took me a evening of playing with it but it works fine. (3366)
I just finished installing a SBL taper attachment on my 13 SBL. I posted some info about my experience on the Home Shop Board. Email me if you want to chat more about what I went through. rick (3417)
What URL is the "Home Shop Board"? Johnny (3433)
A month or so ago, I bought a taper attachment off eBay, asked about how to mount it, got good info, contacted SB for their instructions, got some help locally, and now its all mounted, aligned and working beautifully. Rick K. (3691)
This was an offlist exchange, that I thought some here might find useful, or at least hope so. Rick K. Attachment: (image/jpeg) IndicatingRear.jpg [not stored] Attachment: (image/jpeg) IndicatingFront1.jpg [not stored] Attachment: (image/jpeg) IndicatingFront2.jpg [not stored] (3708)
Home Made Taper Attachment?
Has anyone made their own taper attachment for the 9" Southbend? Johnny (3901)
Johnny: Check out the projects section of this site, there is a description of a taper attachment for a Myford that might give some good ideas. http://easyweb.easynet.co.uk/~chrish/homepage.htm I have also seen a couple of other sites on the net that show fabricated taper attachments. you should try searching with "Google" etc. Also have a look for a picture of an Atlas 10" taper attachment, it is a workable design but much simpler than the SB Part of my current project is to build a taper for a SB9 ( see my previous post about the taper attachment slide block) that incorporates a cross slide table, somewhat like the one sold by Metal Lathe Accessories, with a long nose to pick up the taper attachment. Pete (3903)
The Walter E.Burton article on making a taper attachment was reprinted by Popular Mechanics in their 1968 Do-It-Yourself Encyclopedia, volume 14 (under "tapers, lathe" (pp.2572-2576). It originally appeared in Popular Mechanics, but I do not know which issue. The local library had this edition of the PM DIY encyclopedia but, unfortunately, replaced them with a newer edition. Perhaps your library is not so quick to dispose of the "good" stuff. P.Isaac (3912)
There is a good homemade taper attachment at another yahoo group called : http://groups.yahoo.com/group/mlprojects/  The taper attachment PDF file is at: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/mlprojects/files/Projects/ you might have to join the group to access the files area. I belong to it and have gotten a lot of good ideas from some of the articles. Dallas (3917)
I found this link on another board http://www.kinzers.com/don/MachineTools/taper_att/ (4242)
About taper attachments
Now that I am armed with the knowledge I need for a 5-C adapter, seems I need to find plans, if available, for a taper attachment for my hvy 10! Tom (4208)
Tom, A couple of years ago I bought a taper attachment for my 9" SBL off e-Bay for $230 . The other day I saw one go for $635. I don't imagine they've increased in value so much as who's bidding on them. Maybe in the summer time when folks are on holidays you might find a better deal on the auction site than to build one? (4209)
Tom, I have been in the group for some time but have never posted a message before. There is an article in the Popular Mechanics Do-It-Yourself Encyclopedia, volume 14 from 1968 titled "Lathe taper attachment from stock materials". It starts on page 2572. The article describes building one from cold rolled steel, angle iron, and drill rod (for tracks). While the article is geared for the 9" lathe I would think it could be adjusted to meet your need. I have the article and plan to build one. I can't afford the ones I've seen for sale. Hope this post proves helpful to you and others. Jim (4240)
Heavy 10 taper attachment?
Just got a Heavy 10" S.B. lathe with a taper attachment. Is there an easy way to just look at the taper attachment and cross slide and tell if you have a plain or telescopic type taper attachment? The little information I have on the lathe says all 9" had plain and 10" and above have telescopic. Telescopic cross feed screw? what the heck does that look like? Bob (4621)
Bob, On the Heavy 10, the telescopic cross slide screw is made in two pieces, and goes all the way to the back of the taper attachment, where a thrust washer and nut are fastened to its tip. As you turn the cross feed handle, the nut will turn. If a previous owner replaced the telescoping screw with a single- piece, short screw, then there won't be anything at the back. If you want to turn tapers in such a case, you will have to disconnect the cross feed mechanism in some way. One way would be to undo the large hex sleeve that holds the screw onto the saddle casting at the front of the cross slide. This makes it work like the simpler taper attachment for the 9-inch lathe. Jon (4629)
Jon, Your explanation was perfect and I have the telescopic type cross slide screw and the taper attachment works very well. Bob (4631)
Make it yourself taper attachment
The cross slide is a development of the Metal Lathe Accessories T-slot cross slide. I redesigned the end to accommodate the plain taper attachment used on the 9" and 10K South Bend lathes. I made a loose pattern and had 2 castings made several years ago. I don't think that it would fit on a 10L without some modification. The gib was made in the same style as the original, i.e. set screw straight gib. I was thinking of making drawings available in the near future, but I want to finish the design for a completely home brew taper attachment (as opposed to an original SB) to go with it. I'd be interested to know, if there would be enough interested in a "make it yourself" Taper Attachment to warrant making drawings and castings available. Pete (4835)
Pete Sounds like a good idea. My saddle has the long end to use the taper attachment, but no taper attachment came with the lathe. I cringe at just thinking about the price of one from South Bend. Used is pretty pricy too. Right now I really don't need one, the small projects right now I believe using the compound would be good enough. What ball park price would these castings be sold for? Would they also be available machined? Alex (4836)
Pete, Sounds like a great project! Keep us posted. I'm interested. Paul R. (4837)
Pete: Keep me informed of the project as I would like to have a taper attachment on my 9" model A. Randy (4852)
I would also be interested in drawings and castings. I also have a 9A that I need to start a clean-up on. Fred (4854)
Pete, I have a 10k and would be interested in building a taper attachment. There is one on eBay that is going off today but exceeding my immediate limits. Robert (4877)
Robert, I don't know what taper your looking at on e-bay but I bought one a couple of years ago for around $360 and the one I see is at $260. I also got the cross slide that you have to replace to use it. This would be the hard part to make and the taper attachment is useless with out it. (4884)
The taper attachment I was looking at is at this site (ebay) Is there more to it than meet the eye. I have the cross slide that has two bolt holes at the opposite side to bolt it to. Maybe leaping before I know! Robert (4885)
Robert, Are you sure of your parts terminology. The taper attachment bolts to the saddle. (maybe my parts terminology need corrected). The cross slide is the part that sits on top of the saddle and the compound sits on top of it. The one for the taper attachment sticks out probably over 6 inches from the saddle and has an elongated slot through the center of it. The regular cross slide is square at the back. Tom (4886)
My saddle is square across the back. I believed that the bottom piece, from the eBay picture, of the taper attachment would attach at this point. I do have two bolt holes 3 1/2 inches apart. What would these be for? So I guess that I need another saddle or can I make an extension from my existing saddle to connect out the inches? necessary. PS: This is out of my budget right now but I am open for future knowledge, that is why I would be interested in making one. Robert (4888)
Robert, Your Saddle seems like it would accept the taper attachment. That is what the two bolt holes are for. Some of the saddles are also drilled for dowel pins so the taper attachment can be taken off then remounted with realigning it. This isn't the problem I think both of us are trying to convey to you. The cross slide is different for the use of a taper attachment. Also, the cross slide lead screw and nut are different, than those for a standard cross slide. That is what the previous poster is getting at. The item on e-bay doesn't include the cross slide, that would be needed. I do sometimes see plans for a taper attachment on e-bay. Also, I think if you do a search for previous post on this subject, there are free plans somewhere on the internet. From what I see of these plans, they add on an extension of angle plate to the standard cross slide. I think some of the larger lathes use this setup. Ok, look at e-bay item 1743463410 in the south bend lathe section. This has the standard or regular cross slide. Now look at item number 1744431492 in the same section. It has the taper attachment setup. If you look at the back of the cross slide, you will notice that the one for the taper attachment extends probably 10 inches or more and tapers a bit beyond the bed. There is a slot in the middle of this extension. If your cross slide has this, then the other eBay item would work. If not, then you would have to find another cross slide as such, and cross slide lead screw plus the nut. I am not sure if just adding on an extension would work. I think I'd look at the plans. Also, I would not feel left out or handicapped to much without a taper attachment. Unless you plan on doing large pipe threads, you can offset the tailstock to do long tapers. Tom (4889)
Tom, is there a simple technique for offsetting the tail stock or an explanation somewhere? How far is it moveable? Robert (4891)
Robert, There is a formula for doing this. I don't remember it totally, but its something like the Diameter closest to the head stock minus the diameter closest to the tailstock over the length of the part. I don't know if I'll be able to find this formula tonight when I go home. And I'll be leaving soon. Basically, the tailstock has a set screw on both sides. Assuming the tailstock is centered, you put a dial indicator on the side of the part and loosen up the screws to the tail stock. You really want the small end of the taper towards the tailstock (its been awhile since I had to do this). Move the tailstock towards you the amount derived in the formula. (I'd only loosen the front screw). Move the tailstock towards you with the rear set screw that amount. Now take a cut. Not all the way to depth though. Mic the diameter at the start and end of the cut. Also measure its length. Do the trig and see if the angle is correct. If not, put back on the dial indicator and adjust the tail stock in or out to correct this. Remember to tighten the setscrew that you adjusted the tailstock with before doing any cutting. Once you get the tapper you want, turn to diameter. The main problem with this method is that if you are doing a bunch of parts, their length and any ID chamfer on the end must be the same or you will have to adjust the tailstock offset for each one. I think I was just doing about an 1/8 taper over 16-18 inches. I'm not sure of the amount of taper capacity. It would vary some to the length of the part as to the angle, but the diameter capacity wouldn't change. Maybe someone else has a bit more experience with this. I'm headed for home now. Tom (4892)
Robert, On mine I have a cover over the feedscrew that bolts on right there. Dave (4897)
Robert, before I had the taper attachment I would just loosen the two set screws on the compound rest , set what angle I wanted and taper from there, just with the compound. Or I would put in a gizmo I have with a no 2 morse taper that fits into the tailstock I have two of these, one I made and the other a English custom one with a level and various fine tune degree settings. Of course using this offset method you still have to use a faceplate, lathe dogs etc. but still faster than resetting the tail stock after your job is done. Here is the process I do when using my custom SB taper attachment. I remove the vertical bolt that is directly in front and on the cross slide. This bolt goes through the cross-slide and into the brass cross feed nut. I then put a small wooded plug in the hole to keep out the swarf. I then figure out and set my taper, lock the taper attachment tight to the ways, set my cutting tool so it just touches the work at zero degrees, then tighten up the lever nut that tightens the crosslide to the top slider of the taper attachment. See Robert, the only way to set your cutting tool is with the compound once you have removed the crossfeed nut bolt as now the cross slide is (floating) to the whim of the top part of the taper attachment as the bottom is locked to the ways. (4898)
Smallest Lathe with Taper Attachment?
I just acquired a very nice 9 inch A model. I would like a taper attachment for it. Is such a thing available, or is it easier to find a needle in a haystack? Jim (8932)
There are probably a few available. If nothing else you could build one. There are some free plans available. I know I have 1 or 2 plans for taper attachments. If you email me off list I will send the plans to you. Congratulations on your lathe. Bill C. (8934)
I'm terribly sorry, seems I have lost the file for the taper attachment. I had a problem with hackers a little while back and had some groups wiped out. The files were stored there and are no longer available. I know they are to be found some where but only God knows where they could be. I will try my best to find them for you because I don't want to be labeled as a liar. Have a little patience and I will try to find them. Guess I should have check my archives before I spoke. Bill C. (8937)
I tried to upload the file but there is not enough room for the file. I will upload it to the following URL. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Prints_and_Plans/ It will be in a file called Lathe Tooling. If anyone else is interested you can find the file there. Bill C. (8941)
Jim, As pointed out, there are plans to make a taper attachment. Originals or after market units do show up from time to time on E-Bay. I would say they generally cost about $300 for the 9/10K version. I would think about making one as they don't look to complex. Tom (8944)
Bill Collins was gracious enough to recently post plans for a taper attachment on the Prints and Plans group (thanks Bill). Has anyone constructed this item, or one similar and can offer any insight? Any limitations over manufacturer supplied units??? The plans, published originally in Popular Mechanics, date from the early 60's. With advances it technology and availability of other materials, could any of our resident experts offer advice with respect to updated construction modifications? Fred (9006)
Stiff Taper Turning Attachment on Heavy 10
When using the taper turning attachment on my Heavy 10 longitudinal saddle movement becomes unacceptably stiff towards the tailstock end of the slides. In practice only about 2/3 rds of the taper turning travel can be used by anyone with mechanical sensitivity. Completely backing off the gib strip running on the allows slightly freer travel but its still not acceptable. I have removed the assembly, cleaned and lubricated everything and carefully set up the gib strips with the unit off the machine to give a nice sliding movement with a hint of resistance, but not so much as to stop the taper attachment bed moving under its own weight. My guess is that the tie rod is not quite lying truly parallel to the bed causing the inner side of the taper attachment bed to tighten up in the bed bracket as it moves towards the tie rod bracket. The machine has previously been serviced by "Bozo Man" who, among other infelicities put both cross feed screw ball thrust units on the inner end of the screw! Given this history are there any non-obvious adjustments that can be made or must I assume that Bozo has bent something a fraction giving permanent misalignment. If so the only cure I can think of is to open up the hole in the tie rod bracket at the tailstock end and make up some special thrust washers so the arm can float a fraction in the casting allowing the taper attachment bed to take up its proper position. Theoretically I suppose one could shim the attachment fitting flange on the saddle to remove the error but I suspect the error here would be less than a thou' which is too small for shimming to be practical. Has anyone any better ideas before it take the irreversible step of opening up the hole? Clive (9473)
I am somewhat of a newbie, but perhaps you could true up the rod between centers, or at least discover if a bent rod is the problem. Bob (9474)
Clive, I have a set of instructions for setting up a new taper attachment on the 9 inch and 10K machines. Although not specific to the Heavy Ten lathe, most of the procedures and set up checks would be the same (or at least similar). I have uploaded scans to ours sister BBS (SouthBendLathePix) in the files section in the folder: "Taper Installation Instr." Here is a link: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SouthBendLathePix/files/Taper%20Installation%20Instr./ Check it out and see if it helps. Webb (9482)
I just posted a larger version of page 6 of the taper installation instructions. The measurements are still "muddy" and hard to read but I make them out to be (in Fig. 3) Rear "Vee" to Machined Flat on Saddle: 1 9/32", Bottom of Dovetail to Screw Center: 57/64", Center Line of Saddle to Center of Screw: 1 3/4" The 57/64" is VERY hard to read on the original and I may have got this one wrong. Take a look at the diagram and see for yourselves: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SouthBendLathePix/files/Taper%20Installation%20Instr./SBL%20Taper%20Inst-6A.jpg Webb (9493)
Webb I agree with your dimensions. Thanks a bunch for posting this set of instructions. They came at the perfect time for me. Jim (9507)
I just purchased a copy of SBL form 1072 " instructions for fitting the taper attachment" from Randy Phillippe for $15.00. If the taper attachment was not original equipment on your lathe it is a very complex installation procedure for the heavy 10. There are a number of places in the installation process where you need to check alignment with an indicator and scrape mounting surfaces if the parts are not aligned. I would recommend getting this or better yet try and get it from LeBlond since some of the pictures in the copy are hard to make out. I purchased the taper attachment to add on to my heavy 10 and quickly discovered that the mounting pin holes are not even drilled in the saddle unless it was installed at the factory. (9508)
Fortunately my taper attachment is obviously OE. All my problems with the lathe appear to be due to "Bozo service man" combining an IQ significantly less than room temperature with a habit of discarding anything he did not understand! Extra special thanks to Ray Mihailof for supplying the answer in an off group post. The tiebar is cast into the the tie rod bracket using babbitt metal with everything mounted on the lathe ensuring proper alignment. My bracket is far too loose on the tie rod for it still to be properly cast in so Bozo has obviously unscrewed it and on refitting the clearances are just enough to upset the alignment. Re-casting will fix it. Classic SouthBend cleverness and low cunning to get a simple answer to a difficult problem. Clive (9518)
9A Taper attachment ?
On the Taper attachment bed clamp top casting is a small knurled head pin fitted into a counterbored hole and retained by a cotter pin. It is loose and serves no obvious purpose in this location and does not appear needed in operation of the Taper Attachment. What is the purpose of this pin? It does not appear in the parts/assembly list I have. My lathe is 9A lathe 1946 build and I assume all the accessories that came with it were bought at the same time. The attached picture shows the head of pin. RichD Attachment: (image/jpeg) TaperAtt-01.jpg [not stored] (11104)
This is only a do nothing decoration that some one made. You may throw it away. (11105)
Well, a lot of other folks just happened to do the exact same thing. The pic was from Ebay and matches mine. Perhaps Rose can shed some light on it. (11106)
Rich- My illustrated breakdown says that "when using taper attachment, replace the crossfeed nut screw with this plug to keep out chips". Rose Marvin (11118)
Rose, Now that's amazing!! South Bend thinks of everything and looks after its own. Wow! The answer was obvious after all, but if you don't know. I have been using masking tape to cover the screw hole. RichD (11124)
Homemade taper attachment for 9" SBL
Has anyone had any luck making a taper attachment for their small Southbend lathe? If so could you post a picture of it? (11960)
Jim: Check our post 4242. Gary (11970)
Gary! That link was just the ticket. Easy to make too. (11983)
Saw this posting and wanted to offer some of my experience. After asking others if anyone had had any success with the 1962 P.M. plans (with no responses), I went forward with the project. The plans are not complete for a 9" S.B., even though that's the unit shown in the article, but a little common sense will easily get one by. No solutions are offered for a quick disconnect of the cross feed, which has no be accomplished in some manner. I remove the crossfeed nut My problem came after completion. Larger taper angles will cause the upper guide block to bind, risking damage to the lathe during power feed cuts. I was told by an "Old Timer" that the S.B. factory taper attachments also suffered the same binding problem at greater taper angles. I am currently in the process of producing a longer guide block to hopefully minimize torsional binding. This type of project really isn't rocket science and screams for a new millennium update with decent roller bearings as opposed to lapped in guide blocks. It would make this project easier, more effective and more accurate than guide blocks. Hhhhhm. My last Home Shop Machinist was looking pretty skinny last time. Maybe. (12092)
Anyone contemplating making a taper turning attachment would do well to investigate the use of industrial guide rails with ball bearing slides instead of the traditional dovetail rail and lapped block. Such units are remarkably inexpensive these days and very accurate so its worth looking to see how the price / performance / work involved equation works out. I was going to make my taper turner for the 9" C this way but a fully equipped Heavy 10 turned up making the idea redundant so I have no practical experience. Sorry. Have a look at http://www.hiwin.com/ to get some idea of what is out there. Hiwin are relatively inexpensive (in the UK) but there are many other suppliers. (If you do decide to go this route don't be tempted to use the round bar versions as all the add on stuff needed for installations destroys the initial price advantage over the flat bars.) Clive (12101)
10K vs 9" Taper Attachment Difference
I just bought a taper attachment (minus the cross slide, feed screw and nut) for a 10K lathe thinking that it would also fit a 9". I got the attachment today and it was exactly as advertised. I went to fit it on and found that there are two pins on the attachment that should fit in the saddle, but I don't have the holes for the pins. The pins are outboard and slightly above the bolt holes. It looks like the bolt holes that would bolt it to the saddle line up. I can probably remove the pins and it should bolt right up (I think), but I hate to mess with stock parts being that they're so hard to come by. Dave (12301)
Dave, If I read you correctly, the dowel pin holes are not drilled into the saddle at the TA attachment surface. I suspect your lathe was not ordered with a TA, therefore it was not fitted to one. After bolting on the new TA, line it up and line drill the pin holes with a final reaming to exact size. Tap in the pins. So, there you go! RichD (12303)
Dave, Don't fret, your part is fine. The taper attachments were fitted at the factory with pins to realign them to the machine they were fitted to. This is so they could taken off and put back on without having to realign the attachment. I'm not sure why you would take off a taper attachment in the first place. Someone else might have better instructions, but the part with the ways they remain stationary need to be level with the bed. Tom (12304)
Rich, Got it. I never thought about the saddle being different, only the cross slide. My concern was that the 10K attachment was somewhat different than the 9". I think I can manage this just fine now that I know. Dave (12305)
The taper attachment was originally factory fitted to the lathe it came from. The pin holes were drilled and reamed through the attachment and lathe at the same time. (12319)
Jim, Wow. Exactly what I needed. I didn't realize that that file existed. Dave (12330)
Taper attachment usage question
I'm still in restoration mode and hence "latheless", so this question is kinda moot, but I'm curious. When using a taper attachment, one must obviously "disable" the cross slide lead screw. How is this normally done ? Alan (12780)
Alan: Two different styles of Taper Attachments that both work differently. First type is "Plain" (or NON-Telescoping ). On this type you must remove the small screw that bolts the cross feed nut to the cross slide. Now as Taper Attachment starts to slide on Swivel Bar since it is physically attached to Cross slide it will push or pull cross slide in or out without turning of Cross slide screw. Second type is Telescoping Taper Attachment which features a keyed (or slotted )cross feed screw that can telescope or slide into the cross feed bushing. Once again as Taper Attachment starts to slide on swivel bar since it physically bolted to Cross Slide it can push or pull Cross Slide in or out ( with screw actually telescoping inside of Cross Slide Bushing ) without having to turn Cross Feed Screw. Hope this explanation is not too confusing but if you can see pictures of both styles it will become easy to understand. Ron (12781)
On my 10k the nut is held onto the saddle by a bolt that one removes. Then the nut floats free and the saddle can be pushed by the taper attachment. Frank (12788)
Crossfeed Screw for Taper Attachment?
Can anyone tell me what the difference is in the crossfeed screw for a Taper equipped 9" SB lathe as opposed to a non-taper lathe? Also, can a non-taper screw be modified to work with a taper? Also, what about the nuts? BK (13324)
I had asked the same question also, and I received some excellent answers from the folks in this forum which I confirmed later during the installation of my taper attachment. The crossfeed screw is the same. The nut is different. I bought parts of my taper attachment for my 9" Model A from several different sources. I got the nut for a non-taper attachment crossfeed screw to fit my cross slide for the taper attached lathe simply by carefully grinding down the sides of the nut to fit the taper of the saddle, then slowly filing down the cylindrical portion of the nut until it fit nicely under the cross slide. I drilled and tapped the nut for a 5/16" X 18 Allen head screw. The screw has to be fitted to the crossfeed so that it's not too deep. It also has to fit within the depression of the crossfeed. It works like a champ. I also turned a piece of nylon stock I had down to fit the hole for when I'm using the taper attachment so that the swarf doesn't enter the hole (you remove this screw to disengage the crossfeed. It's sized so that the compound will slide over it, and is much wider than the hole to protect it better. It's not threaded or anything, I just wanted to cover that hole. I can send a picture and/or measurements if you're interested. Dave (13325)
I'd like to see some pictures as well. Perhaps you could u/l to the files section? Dumitru (13329)
I'm attaching a couple of pictures of what I was talking about. I neglected to mention that the nut I used was a new nut that was finished in the rough by Dennis Pantazis. The acme threads were cut, and the general shape was there, but I had to finish it myself. But the good news is that I compared the body of the nut for a non-taper attachment cross slide and it is practically the same (probably better as I also had to rough cut the sides of mine). One only has the cut off the barrel (that goes up into the cross slide to fit and drill/tap what you have left. I used a 12" disk sander to slowly get the barrel down to the right height. The plug I made out of some plastic (nylon I think) stock I had lying around the largest portion is about 1 3/32" in diameter and about 9/32" high. The next step is about 3/8" diameter and 5/32" high, and the smallest step is about 9/32" diameter and 5/16" high. I tried out my scissor-style knurler on the largest portion just for fun. I only gave rough dimensions as I think you should measure the hole in your cross slide to make sure it will fit. After removing the screw from the cross slide just stick this plug in to protect your feedscrew and nut from swarf. Nothing fancy, but it worked for me. I've thoroughly enjoyed my taper attachment. The first project I made was the lock down lever for the taper attachment/cross slide. I'm attaching a picture of all three in one frame. Not fancy, but again, it certainly works for me. Dave (13346)
No Taper set drawings
Sorry I don't have any drawings or blueprints for it. Is is a custom factory built tool. (13395)
The cheap and easy way to do it is to use a 2" boring head fitting it with the optional 2MT shank. And then there is a slightly smaller head from H.F. that comes with a 2MT, 3MT and a 1/2 straight for $69. If you want to make your own there are several drawing sets around all over the web. JWE (13396)
Perhaps Mr. J. W. Early could post a picture of this, (tool)? (13401)
Here is a quick example. There are better and fancier but this will do the job. You put any type of center in one of the holes in the head and you can then dial in the offset you want with the dial on the side the same as when you use the same tool for boring holes in the mill or mounted in the tool post and used for turning balls and sockets as a over the top radius turning tool. The earliest example I have found published about using an offsetting center for taper turning was in a 1908 Model Engineer and many times since in every machining related magazine. JWE (13403)
Although it's not same, there is a similar tool in the files section of the forum, go to "Homemade Tooling" and to SMOffsetcenter.pdf by Bill Collins. It's a very interesting and simple design that although I have a taper attachment, I am still interested in duplicating due to the ease of use. Dave (13404)
I also forgot to mention that this taper set has a live end. Another reason I like it is it's precise, fast, simple and if you write down the marking to the thou, then next time you do the same job, it's just a matter of checking the book, set it to the mark via it's dial indicator and your away. I also made one from a set of plans with no live end and no dial indicator. It does the job after a fashion but with a lot more hassle and head work. I guess it boils down to what a man can afford and is satisfied with. I've watched men whittle with an axe and do a dam fine job. (13405)
Has no one ever looked at their boring head, you can dial them to a precision of .0005. As to rotating centers all you need is a cheap double row bearing or two single row bearings, a simple shank and a hardened point. The point is what he has is a very fancy boring head without the boring head capabilities. I have a $100 boring head which works great as a boring head in the mill with the R8 shank and the lathe with the 2MT shank with 2 to 3MT adaptor, The lathe tailstock as a taper turning attachment and boring tool with the 2MT shank and in the tool post as a inside/outside radius turning tool for turning inside and outside radii with the 3/4" straight shank. One tool of high quality that with some simple low cost accessories do the job of two other tools of equal or greater cost to it as well as its own designed job. Tools like the one illustrated are going to be more costly to make and sell because their market is more limited. What has brought the cost of the Criterion boring heads down is their ability to do additional jobs with easy adaptation thus increasing sales potential and lowering costs through more economical production methods. JWE (13410)
Wow Now that is what I call extreme setover. JWE (13427)
That is interesting. Notice the dead center looks like a ball joint.  dp (13430)
I've looked over this thread and came to the sudden realization that there is a lot of differences in skill levels in this forum (duh). I don't think some of us have met this realization yet. Me, I figure I'm early in the elementary school level. Others have their Masters (or higher). I have no one I can turn to to ask questions, heck, I don't even know the questions to ask. I took one metal shop class 15 years ago in Alaska, but that only got me familiar with the general workings of a lathe and gave me the bug to buy one when I could afford it. I do all the reading I can do, but I can't find a course offered any where around me. Some folks give out general advice thinking everyone has the same level of expertise that they have and can follow along with what they're saying. I guess I'm kind of tired of feeling ignorant, and I guess I'm just venting. I kind of feel the same way as when my computer takes a crap and I ask the advice of a technician. After shelling out $60 for the 10 minutes it took him to fix it, he said he just had to fix my bios, or something (what the hell is your bios? - redundant question). I grab what information I find and try to run with it. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. With the old South Bend, it always just seems to cost me money (big money at that). Got me a taper attachment for the bargain price of about $300. Now I find that I can buy a cheap boring head for a helluva lot less than that and accomplish the same thing. I've seen boring heads in catalogs, but had no idea that they could be used that was. I've got a milling attachment, and a drawbar, but damned if I know where to buy the correct mill holder to fit the 5/8" X 26" internal thread of the draw bar. No where in the MANY catalogs I've ordered and received. So if I finally get the darned mill holder WHAT KIND OF MILL DO I WANT TO START LOOKING FOR????!!!!! I know it's probably dependent on what I'm milling, but damn, there's got to be some generalities or something. I've tried to be a good member of this forum. I've offered up stuff, sent stuff out to members without asking for payment of any kind, I've posted stuff that got people all kind of ticked off (don't even think about scanning something copyrighted and offering it for free to this forum to be used as a library, I tried - even after talking to Rose and getting the ok for certain publications, and was pretty much talked down to). Folks, think about it, some of the stuff that is so simple to you, is darned complicated to some of us; or at least just me. And I'm not stupid. I'm active duty Coast Guard and I run an engineering department with about a dozen guys. I can't tell you some of our current projects, but I'll tell you that they involve improving Homeland Security and are quite ingenious. Another project involves improving the electrical power distribution to a communications center utilizing the backup a backup emergency generator and large UPS and changing the wiring in a building built in 1934 to modern standards. I use people's skills and weaknesses in order to get a mission accomplished. And I ask questions. I keep my boats and cutters running, my buildings in good repair, and I'm a darned successful Coastie with almost 30 years in. But I AIN'T A MACHINIST, even as much as I'm wanting to learn. OK, I think I'm finished venting. I could say a lot more, but I'm already dreading the flak that's going to come of what I've already said. I guess I'd like to offer some advice. If you have a way of doing something that seems simple to you, be prepared to become the teacher of us ignoramuses. I meant no offense to anyone, but I'm tired of tiptoeing. Dave (13431)
Dave I read your letter and i agree with you some of the old timers are a bunch of snobs its easier to insult rather than teach when I was an apprentice i was told to sweep the floors during slow periods i stopped to watch an old timer who was building a project and when he saw me he literally stooped over the work and folded his hands around the project because i was watching him and trying to learn and not sweeping i guess you have to learn to sweep for 15 years before they will teach you anything, so I'm a master sweeper that's the old way of doing things - slavery for many years before you are taught anything and then teach you so slowly - most anything can be learned rather quickly and then practice makes perfect anyway you stated that you bought a $300 taper attachment and then found out that you could do the same thing with a $100 boring head WRONG yes you can do SOME things with a boring head but not all things you can turn short tapers on the ends of a shaft but you cant turn a taper in the middle of a shaft you also cant turn female tapers especially when you need both the male and female to mate perfectly give me a taper attachment any day over a boring head. fred (13433)
How do you ensure that the boring head is at 90 degrees to the bed? Although, I guess that the sine error would be pretty small even if it was just 'pretty close'. C.S. (13437)
Well said Dave. I'm in the same boat. I didn't just escape from the swamps a week or two ago, and I know I'm not dumb, but I've felt like that sometimes... The boring head stuff was a revelation, and doesn't appear in any of the books, even the highly recommended stuff, that I bought to try to learn... Having said that, I think I've learned a lot from this list, but know there are some clever fellas out there who could teach the likes of me and you and a few others, an awful lot. Len Smith No Taper set drawings I've looked over this thread and came to the sudden realization that there is a lot of differences in skill levels in this forum (duh). I don't think some of us have met this realization yet. Me, I figure I'm early in the elementary school level. Others have their Masters (or higher). (13442)
Dave, Setting here reading what you and Fred have to say about learning to be a machinist. I agree there are quit a few of the oldtimers that were snobs. Not all. I guess I was lucky I grew up in a farm welding and machine shop. We had some old machines, But there wasn't much we couldn't fix. I guess that is why I still like the old machines. If you go to (southbend pix.) I have pictures of my main machines that I make a living with, they are all a lot older then I. The use of a boring head as a off set is a new one on me. A taper attachment would be a lot easier to use and a whole lot more accurate. I off set my tail stock to turn tapers. My SB is so old they don't make a taper attachment for it. Dave, you are in the Coast Guard, don't you have machinist Mates or machine repairmen, if you do they should be able to help you out a bunch. I have a lot of books that I use for reference, and I use them a lot. I have been at this for many years and am still learning. The only dumb question is one not asked. The dumbest person in the world knows something I need to learn. Ask, I will be as clear as possible. I have train people in the millwright trade for some 35 yr. Duane (13465)
Telescoping taper attachment
For those interested in a telescoping taper attachment for any S.B. lathe I have an article in the Jan./Feb.2004 issue of Homeshop Machinist page 48. This was written for the 9" and light 10 but applies to all S.B lathes as the principal is the same. To the best of my knowledge S.B. never offered this option for the two small lathes. If you just want a conventional taper attachment use the same dimensions and delete the telescoping part. (16806)
Part for taper attachment
I am in need of the part that clamps on the bed of a 14 1/2" lathe and has a hole for the tie rod that attaches to the taper attachment. I don't know what the part number is for this part. It is a heavy casting. I would appreciate any help for procuring this part. Buddy (16972)
Buddy: Can you post a dimension from the center of the Vee way to the center of the Tie Rod on the taper attachment (these two points are not on the same plane but just measure that distance on the angle). I have a Unit from a 13" SB that might be close. There is some wiggle room as you set Taper Attachment and attach this clamp to bed and around Tie Rod and then pour babbit in clamp to form "bushing" around Tie Rod. Ron (16975)
Parts list shows a different number for each size lathe. The 14.5" is no longer available. Looks like you may have to fabricate one. JP (16992)
JP I thought that someone might have one lying around. Or there was a guy up East somewhere (I can't remember where) that had a small foundry and fabricated these old parts. Do you or anyone else know who this was? Buddy (17000)
There is Metal Lathe Accessories in PA that sells kits for the SB9" accessories that he designs himself. He has the castings done by the Amish there but I haven't seen a taper attachment in his catalog. He does nice work but not SB original parts. LeBlond sent patterns to Taiwan to get castings made a while back and the patterns were destroyed. Try Rose at Southbend and see if she can help you. Otherwise measure carefully and fabricate one up. There is a picture of them in the SB parts list, it clamps to the rear way. JP (17005)
Buddy: I asked you for a measurement as I might be able to help you out. Ron (17009)
Taper Turning Attachment
A question about the SB taper turning attachment. I'm thinking about sinking some holes on my attachment for common taper angles such as MT2, MT3 and JT6 so I can put some dowel pins in them for quick setup for turning the tapers. Is this advisable given the possibility that there may be some misalignment each time the attachment was removed and replaced? Has anyone done any mods like this to a taper turning attachment, what would you recommend. Peter (17914)
Peter, I can understand your wanting for a quick set up on your taper turning, but to drill holes into it? I wouldn't do that. Are you aware there are numbers to either end of your taper attachment? To the far right and left are numbers and lines to ensure you always line-up your machine every time. To the right are numbers and lines which indicate "Taper in Inches" To the left are numbers and lines which indicate "Taper in Degrees" I think there is a way you can use these lines and numbers to your advantage and eliminate any need to alter your attachment in any way. I'm kind of hoping I misunderstood your question, let me know if this was any help. Philip (17917)
Philip You understood correctly! It does sound silly at first but setting up Morse Tapers using the numbers and angles is a bit time consuming since the tapers aren't easy ratios. I saw this idea on a home made attachment and thought it was a good idea, the holes I mean. Probably not then. Peter (17919)
Peter, I've tried turning morse tapers on my 10L with taper attachment too. I got close but not as good as I'd like. After getting it set correctly how about scribing a line where the top piece pivots on the bottom piece over most of the length? It would be easy to see if you were on it or not.. I can't see drilling a hole for a screw as being too accurate. Maybe a taper pin or the like? Joe (17920)
Joe, I'd use dowel pins or taper pins not a screw. As you point out the angle scales aren't easy to set by eye so you'd resort to using a DTI and a test taper to set up the attachment accurately. I guess once you've done it a few times you get used to it and setup time is reduced. Scribing a line is a good idea, depends on your eyesight. Peter. (17922)
Rather than drilling holes in your taper attachment I saw a much better idea in a British publication that used an attached micrometer head acting against a post mounted on the moveable part of the taper attachment. I can't find my copy of this manual that covers all types of ideas and tools for the amateur machinist. Once you find the angle you are looking for you can just dial in the micrometer setting for the angle you want. Also great for tweaking in the original taper setting. If anyone is interested in the name of the publication e-mail me and I will take the time to find my copy. Walt (17930)
Walt, I would be interested in knowing which publication. It wasn't perchance Model Engineers Workshop? If so what issue? Fred (17931)
I think a few of us would be interested. When you find it, please post the info to the group. Rick (17932)
Speaking of tapers
On my 10" Southbend I have a factory taper attachment. I've never used it because I can't figure out how to release the cross slide so that it will move freely with the taper attachment engaged. All I can see to do is to pull the screw out of the cross slide body so that it slides on its own. However, this takes "forever" to do and I can't see doing it with work mounted in the lathe. Is there a hidden release or half-nut on the cross slide somewhere that I overlooked? Rob P. (17933)
No releases, just screw down the handle in the slot and clamp the part to the bed. It then moves it in and out. It's tight as you mentioned though. For a test, clamp the piece to the bed, tighten the lock on the top and with both hands move the carriage left and right and you'll see the cross slide move in and out. That's assuming the taper attachment is not on zero. Joe (17939)
Rob: Easiest way to tell you how to operate Taper attachment is to do the following: 1---Set taper in degrees or inches on scale. 2-- Tighten Tie Rod Bracket on V- Ways (that is the clamp affair that sits on V-Ways and attaches to Taper Attachment through the Tie Rod) VERY IMPORTANT!!! 3---Tighten Binding Lever (the lever that sits on top of the connecting cover or as I like to call it the Cross-slide Way Guide Cover) 4-- Check with indicator (by calculation) that taper is correct 5--Start cutting Your machine should feature what they call a "Telescoping Style" Taper Attachment. You will see no movement of your crossfeed dial as taper is followed but what is happening is that screw is actually sliding up inside the mechanism that makes up your Crossfeed dial and its housing. That is the best explanation I can give in "Layman's Terms". Ron (17941)
You will see no movement of your crossfeed dial as taper is followed but what is happening is that screw is actually sliding up inside the mechanism that makes up your Crossfeed dial and its housing. That is the best explanation I can give in "Layman's Terms" This is what I understand is to happen when using the taper attachment, BUT in order to do this the cross slide HAS TO BE free enough for the taper attachment to push/pull the slide as it travels. That means that I should be able to push the cross slide towards the back of the machine by hand which is impossible (or if it DID happen something is broken somewhere) since the cross slide has to be solidly attached to its leadscrew. So, somehow the leadscrew and the slide body have to be "disconnected" from each other for the taper attachment to work. That "how" has me baffled. Rob P. who is wondering if there's a way to get the taper attachment users manual documentation into the archives along with the how-to install the attachment. (17943)
Rob: First off you cannot push or pull cross-slide when attached to Taper Attachment. Lock up V-Way Clamp, mount indicator on front of saddle (just in front of crosslide dial) and put it on compound. You only have to move slightly (not even 1/8") and you will see dial indicator start to move towards you. I have the installation manual but unfortunately am on dial -up and it is too large to send. Ron (17945)
Rob: Send me your Snail Mail address off group and I will send you a photo-copy of my photo-copy of the Taper Attachment Installation Manual. If you are on cable service maybe you can post to group files. Ron (17948)
Mass producing parts without a hydraulic taper attachment
I am to make about 12 or so candle sticks all being the same in every way. Does anyone have any ideas on how I can do this? Maybe somehow attach a pattern to my taper attachment? Philip (19794)
There attachments for wood lathes that do this. Perhaps is you looked at a wood working catalog (Delta makes one called a "lathe duplicator". Its ITEM # 46-408 at Woodworker Supply www.woodworker.com It consists if a template that the tool follows. If you could make a template for your taper attachment and get the cross feed to follow it, that would be a similar approach. Jim B. (19795)
Jim, somewhere in the archives a couple years ago there was a blurp about this. Duane (19797)
Great starting point Jim! Philip (19799)
Longest normal taper cut on 9"/10" SBL?
I acquired a couple of linear rails with slides and wondered what the longest taper is normally cut on a 9 to 10" SBL? With the low price a taper attachment commands and finding one for my 9" Junior - 18" c-c, add a few extra $! The rails are about 1" square and the sliders about 3" sq. Plenty of room for an attachment to the cross slide. Figured on cutting the rail in half and attaching to piece of 1/4' - 1/2" bar stock. Then pivot both to another piece attached to lathe bed. I would have about 6 to 7" of travel for tapering. Want to make it wide enough to do the 40 taper: 3.5" per 12". Idea rattling around is to make flip over standards/jigs to do tapers: MT2, MT3, and the 40 along with the variable. 40 taper - I've been looking at modifying Joe Romig's concrete horiz MT2 mill from the 1920's PMSN. Suggestions, comments always welcome now that I have a tad of knowledge and am considered dangerous. Bob (20050)
Bob, The standard taper attachment for the 9" SB gives you a maximum of 6 1/2" which is more than ample for tooling tapers. For longer less precise tapers you can turn the taper in sections by repositioning the attachment with length limited by your bed length. For precise long tapers you can also use the tailstock setover method without the taper attachment. Keep your cuts light on long thin tapers because deflection will spoil your taper. Ted (20051)
Taper att use
How do you disengage the cross slide from the screw when using a taper attachment? Just curious I don't remember how. Bob (21232)
Remove the screw in the cross-slide that holds the cross-slide nut. (21233)
Bill, That's kinda what I thought. The lathes with a taper set up must use a flat cross screw nut and the non use a cross screw with a boss that fits in a hole. Bob (21234)
Bob, I remove the screw in the top of the cross slide and place it upside down in the counterbored hole. This keeps the chips from falling into the hole and I know where to look for the screw when I'm finished using the taper attachment. Jim (21235)
I turned down a plastic plug that I put in the hole after removing the screw. Dave (21239)
My 9" taper attachment came with a knurled headed pin for this purpose. The pin normally resides in a hole in the taper attachment anchor. Jim (21241)
By the way, I just finished converting my 9" SB to a telescoping taper att. I don't have to worry where the screw is. It stays right in the nut. (21259)
My setup is a little different than most. 1) I have an aftermarket cross slide with the big hole for non factory taper att. I don't want to remove the brass nut so i will unscrew the cross slide to the rear then remove the whole handle assembly including the screw from the front. My thread stop makes a perfect wrench to unscrew. I found a nice set of plans that even has a SB used for a model. Bob (21260)
Taper attachment installation
I'm trying to install a taper attachment and I'm not sure how the bed clamp is supposed to be aligned. In the attached photo: 1) I'm assuming that this bed clamp, which was also supporting a collet rack, is intended to capture the rod on the right end of the taper attachment. 2) This bed clamp has a steel sleeve in it that is the right diameter to slip on the rod but alignment is way off. The steel sleeve doesn't have the "feel" of a factory part. 3) The taper attachment is located on the saddle using dowel pins and aligned with the cross-slide screw so I sure that the problem is with the bed clamp. I'm thinking that I am either missing some part or else the large hole in the bed clamp should be filled with babbitt rather than a machined sleeve. Can anyone tell me how this is supposed to work. Ed Attachment: (image/jpeg) taper1.jpg [not stored] (23379)
Ed. What size lathe is yours? I just picked up your thread and I apologize for that, I have a SB 13x 40 with taper attach and I can email you photo's if that will help. Email off line if you want. Dee (23381)
Ed, On my 10L the bed clamps for the taper attachment and the collet rack look the same. The difference is that the taper clamp is filled with babbit to align the shaft from the taper attachment. The hole in the collet clamp is big enough for the rod that holds the handwheel closer. I think what you have is the collet rack clamp and not the taper clamp. Chris (23383)
Chris, The photo attach didn't seem to work so I put a photo on my website: http://beers.nu/taper1.jpg I also have a 10L. Does your taper clamp have the vertical post? Ed (23388)
The clamp in the picture is a collet rack mount. The taper attachment clamp is identical except it does not have an upright pipe or even a hole for one. The horizontal cast hole for the rod from the taper attachment has a steel sleeve embedded in lead because it does not center up exactly with the rod. Roy (23391)
Ed: Taper Attachment was aligned following an elaborate factory set-up instruction sheet and babbitt is then poured into holes in top of the bracket ( washers were put on either side if the bracket to stop babbitt from pouring right through ) I believe I have the set -up instructions if you want a copy either by Email ( could be quite a large file) or by snail mail if you want to contact me off group. Ron (23399)
Ed, Not sure if you have the right clamp, but I agree that it shouldn't have a steel sleeve, that the taper attachment shaft is aligned in the right clamp with babbitt. I mounted a TA on a 9" and did the babbitt thing. Perhaps that sleeve is mounted in the clamp with babbitt and you can melt it to remove the clamp. If not, there are other ways to get it out or machine it out to make room. If it is a babbitt mount, there should be a pour hole on the top/center surface above the shaft hole but it not be visible without striping the paint. Rick (23401)
ED: Another thing that you might try to adjust the misalignment if you still want to see if sleeve is close, is to adjust the small screw with the jam nut on it that is screwed into the bottom of the clamp for that bracket. This will allow for some movement up and down but not in and out. In and out is preset by the "V" that is machined in the clamp. Ron (23402)
Ed, the rack clamp and taper att clamp castings are identical, except that the taper att casting is filled with lead or babbitt to fit the stub on the taper att end. The hole where the rack would bolt should go instead is the place that holds the cross-slide nut screw hole cap pin. If your casting has two empty 1/4" holes on top and a setscrew in the rear, that is a rack clamp. RichD (23406)
Ron, I'm assuming that complicated part of the procedure is getting the taper attachment aligned with the crossfeed leadscrew and parallel to the bed. This shouldn't be a problem for me since I am using the original saddle with the attachment location fixed by dowels. It sounds like I am missing the clamp for the taper attachment but do have the very similar clamp for the collet rack. I will probably modify the collet rack clamp for the taper. Now all I need to do is learn to babbitt. Ed (23407)
For ref, here is a collet rack set complete. (ebay) RichD (23410)
On my heavy ten, there are TWO clamps. One holds the collet rack. The other one attaches the taper attachment to the bed. They do look alike. (23411)
You can probably get by with just filling the cast hole with lead and drilling a hole for the rod in the proper (off center) location. As I mentioned earlier, there was a steel sleeve cast into the lead, but that isn't really necessary since the clamp only keeps things from moving side to side when in use, otherwise it has a free ride the rest of the time. Roy (23412)
Ed, Yep, that's a rack clamp. May have been sleeved to adapt to a taper att, but not on that lathe. What does go in the hole is the C ring holder for the collet handwheel closer. RichD (23414)
Ed: Someone has made this sleeve and installed it in the Collet Rack Clamp ( which is what you have but is the same as the taper attachment clamp without the pipe tapped hole in it as someone else already alluded to ) . When you see the size of the hole in the Collet Rack Clamp as compared to the size of the Draw Bar itself you think it needs a bushing which was not the way South Bend supplied it but made perfect sense to machine one and install as the lathe owner. Ron (23415)
Just reading your post about the taper attachment. I just yesterday put one on my SB 9 Model A. I have waited years to get one. I have no instruction with it and would greatly like to get one that is written about in this post. I would very happy to pay you for a copy so I can put it with my lathe. I don't care if you want to email it or I can send you my mail address. David (23418)
Ed: When you see the installation instructions it is not just a matter of bolting it on with the dowels and it is correct. You must do some scraping, indicating. bolting, rescraping, reindicating and in at least my case shimming before the attachment is correctly aligned. I do machine repair at a large machine shop at a steel mill and I spent a whole day on mine before it was lined up as per SB instruction sheet. This instruction sheet is an 8 page document with pictures. Ron (23420)
Ron You wouldn't still have those 8 pages would you ? Ed (23421)
David , Ed (Indy) and others: I will scan and send instruction sheet in 4 separate Emails due to size. I have a photo-copy supplied to me by the seller of the Taper Attachment I purchased . Some pics are a little dark but with the written text it is quite easy to see what the pics are trying to show. Could this document be posted anywhere on the SB site? What about the SB Lathe Pix site? Size would probably be large. I have high-speed so sending is not the problem. Ron (23422)
Ron: You sure made my Christmas Day. Many thanks for the kind service of doing this for us all. David (23423)
I'd also like an e-mail copy too Ron. Jim (23424)
You need look no further than the files section right here on the group you are at. Look under the "Techinfo" file in the files section and you will find the info you are looking for. Sometimes a little looking will save a lot of work. BK (23425)
Ron, I would also appreciate a copy of the scans, don't quite understand what all the push-ups are about, but maybe the instructions will explain it! Roy (23426)
BK: I just went and looked at the files in the South Bend Group and you are correct in that the complete file is there for the 9" and 10K only. In fact the written text that is there ( Pages 1 to 5 ) is not something that was included in what I have concerning the 9" and 10K. The instructions I have are not seen in the group file list and pertain more to installing the Taper Attachment on the machines with Telescoping Style Taper Attachment on the larger machines ( Heavy10" and up ) although I do have pages 6 to 8 for the 9" and 10K. The one in the group seems to pertain only to the Non-Telescoping Style Taper Attachment found on the 9" and 10K. Ron (23431)
Ron, There is one already posted in the files directory under Techinfo but it is for the 9/10K while I have a 10L. While it describes the general procedure, the 9 install seems much more complex. On the 10L the mounting flats and tapped holes are already present. The crosslide isn't replaced and doesn't need to be scraped in. Do you have the instructions for the 10L? Ed  (23433)
The "Taper Attachment Fitting" instructions courtesy of rigrac are now available in: Files Many thanks to rigrac for providing them. Paul H. (23478)
Taper setup example
I am modifying a taper sleeve to fit my Heavy 10. Pictures and narrative at: *no longer available* Anyone see issues with this approach or has suggestions/improvement, feel free to chime in. This made sense to me and was doable with the tooling I have. If you don't have a gauge for long travel, you could set up stops so you only have to measure once. Bill (24884)
Bill, I can't comment on the taper setup, but am very interested in how you mounted your Trav-A-Dial. If you have or can provide any information photos, I'd sure appreciate it. Anyone else have on mounted that feels like sharing would be great also. Rick (24900)
Yes Bill, I am actually going through some problems with my actual spindle taper now, so I am trying to figure out your set-up. Thanks for the website Bernie (24926)
Looks very good. However for the best very true results you should to do a little more work. Make a mandrel turned between centers to fit the inside taper of the adapter first. Sock on the adapter then machine to the correct taper. You can just chuck up anything in the 3 jaw chuck for now and put a 60 degree tapered point on it for the center as a temporary one, and use a jaw for the drive pin to ride against. You can check it for accuracy of taper this way, with a test fit (don't even remove it from the mandrel), and get it right back where it was to continue machining with dead on where you had it results. If you pop it out of the 3 jaw chuck to check it, it would never go back accurately enough. More work but should be easier to get a better fit and a true running inside taper. Jim (24934)
Jim, In the first picture you can see some brass shims sitting on the carriage. I am using them to center the adapter in the 3-jaw. I indicate the "free" end first, then center the chuck end using shims. It takes a few iterations but so far it has worked. I am shooting for .0005 TIR (total indicator reading). In the second picture you can see a bit more shine from the sleeve where the three-jaw clamps. Before I chucked the sleeve big end, I pushed the small end into the spindle taper (chuck removed). If fit but wobbled since the tapers don't match. I put a dead center in the spindle sleeve and chucked a bronze oilite bushing in the tailstock drill chuck. The dead center registered inside the oilite bushing so the tailstock could keep the sleeve straight and hold it tight in the spindle bore. I shaved the big end flat (removed the taper) where the chuck jaws engage it in the setup pictured. I don't expect to be doing a lot of center work- this is more an exercise for practice and an attempt to salvage the ten bucks I paid for the taper sleeve. It's made of pretty stern stuff though- a file marks it but even small cuts produces brown-blue continuous ribbon chips. Malleable cast? I was expecting clean gray cast, possible case hardened or carburized. We'll see if life gets easier once I peel off the "skin." Too cold again in the garage so the project will have to wait. Bill (24937)
Jim, I here you. TIR as chucked is around .008. Once indicated and shimmed, I will leave it set until I'm done. The lathe came with only the three jaw chuck which only has the outside jaws. I picked up a nice faceplate for $40, the taper sleeve for $10 plus a couple centers, a 3m-2m reducer, etc. My score of the year so far is a 5c spindle adapter and thread protector for $52. I need to build a collet puller. A local dealer has piles of used collets so I will buy them as I need them. Next on the list are a few more AXA holders. After that a 4-jaw. If I run into a fantastic deal, I may replace the 3-jaw but I don't see where it will add functionality. Rather than buying a 4-jaw, I've thought about machining a set of "jaws" that mount on the surface plate. We'll see how it goes. For now, I think I am set. I could also machine fixtures for each job. When I used to turn tapered holes in plastic cubes, I machined a 3-sided box to hold it. One of the sides included a clamping section. I mounted the box on a piece of 3/4 round. This way, when I needed to do the tapered holes, I just put the round peg in a collet and machined away. Over time, volumes went up and I finally caved to common sense and had custom tapered end mills made. That way I could plunge the tapers on the mill- much faster and easier than cutting tapers with the lathe compound. Hope this reads well- it's past my bedtime. Bill (24953)
PM "make your own taper attachment"
I was looking at some old Popular mechanics books (local library is dumping them) and found an article on making a taper attachment for a metal lathe. I scanned the pages and uploaded them http://www.motherearthrecycling.net/tapper/tapper.pdf the file is 10 meg so it will take some time to load. I also posted a color version with high res http://www.motherearthrecycling.net/tapper/tapper1.pdf but it is 30 meg. (24970)
Its already in prints_and_plans in a smaller file. You might want to change the resolution on your scanner to make download friendly files. I have cable but some people still have dialup. JP (24971)
There are some other styles as well. One is to mount a hinge joint near the headstock and then to that a long shaft. Near the rear of the lathe, is a floating plate that the shaft attaches to. just set the angle and go. One thing about angles, you can use your dial indicator and carriage to determine the angle. I think If I were to do a heavy duty taper attachment, I would use a linear rail. it would be very tight and instead of trying to fit up things, it would make the project much faster. Dave (24984)
The thing I've always wondered about taper attachments, not having ever seen one in person, is how do they release the acme threads/nut that would normally hold the cross slide in place when you have it following the taper attachment? Neal (24987)
If your machine has a taper att. you remove the screw that holds the nut in place. If it a telescoping type you do nothing. My friend Brian and I have converted our 9" SBs to telescoping taper attachments. If your machine did not have a taper att. you would have to modify the nut and plug the hole with a "T" shaped plug. Drill a hole for a new bolt. Bruce (24997)
On the 9x20, cranking the cross slide all the way across and then removing the hex cap screws that hold the cross screw bearing to the slide will allow the slide to be pulled back and forth by the taper attachment. This is easier to do and put back when finished. Jack (25002)
Photo or dimensions of taper part?
I was wondering if someone could supply me with a photo and dimensions of the bolt that holds the crossfeed nut to the taper attachment base on a 1943 SB 9" model A. I have acquired a taper attachment but it came missing this part. Marshall (25783)
BINDER STUD PART #AS867NK1 Dims as follows: Base 1.2486 dia. x .580 thick. Stud 3/8-16 x 1 5/16 long threaded half way. It is all one piece Pin (key) extending from OD of base about halfway up. Bruce .190 dia. extends about .060 (25784)
Thanks for the reply and info. I think I wasn't clear on the part. According to my parts list, which I have just found, I need # PT66NK1. I am trying to determine if someone has modified the hole for this "screw". Marshall (25786)
 
     
 

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