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Lathe - Ways Scraping

 
 

 

 
 
Scrapping the Bed (Feb 2, 2001) Heavy Ten bed regrind (Jan 31, 2003)
Cost to Regrind your bed (May 8, 2001) Bed scraping? (Aug 26, 2003)
Bed truing and such. (May 10, 2001) Hardening vs. scraping/glaking (Dec 14, 2003)
Opinions wanted (Jan 18, 2002) To scrape or not to scrape (Dec 28, 2003)
Bed regrinding/scraping required (Apr 20, 2002) Chicago Area Bed Grinders? (Jan 9, 2004)
Regrinding ways (Jun 8, 2002) Marking blue compound substitution for hand scraping (Feb 10, 2004)
Bed grinding, help? (Jun 28, 2002) Lathe scraping bar (Apr 27, 2004)
Ways regrinding (Jul 20, 2002) Way regrinding (May 2, 2004)
Bed re-scraping (Aug 14, 2002) Getting bed reground (Oct 20, 2004)
Recutting the ways (Sep 2, 2002) My reground bed (Oct 29, 2004)
Ways regrinding info. (Sep 25, 2002) Making scraper from an old file (Nov 21, 2004)
 
Scrapping the Bed
I contacted SB to see if the will regrind beds. They informed me this is a common service they provide. Price is as follows in US Dollars. Regrind bed and refit saddle is $750.00 plus about 3hrs labor for hand scrapping $90.00/hr. Takes about 3 -4 weeks to complete. This amounts to about $1020.00 plus shipping. If I lived in the USA, I would not think twice about getting this done. However, being a Canadian, Shipping, customs and exchange rates make it much less attractive. They still make the 9" lathe but call it a South Bend 10-inch Precision Lathe. The price is a whooping $12,000.00. So having the bed reground maybe worth it. Go to the SB home page and look at the 10" lathe. Has not changed is over 60 years. Jim (155)
Cost to Regrind your bed
This is a quote from Randy Reynolds at South Bend about 2 weeks ago. "To regrind a 10k bed is $782.00 plus $270.00 to re-scrape the saddle to the bed. $1052.00 and you pay the transportation both ways. The turn around is about 6-8 weeks, maybe less but I can't promise. If you want to send the bed and saddle in, just contact Ralph in parts and get an RGA # to put on the parts so they will be marked as your property. 1-800-245-2843." (604)
Ray: That is not a bad price for a lathe bed regrind. Monarch will charge you $3500 to regrind the bed of a monarch toolmaker's lathe 10EE. It is another $4K to have the headstock, saddle and tailstock aligned as well. There are operations out there that can regrind a bed with an automated machine which they claim is 1/5 the cost of hand regrinding. I could look up two outfits if you are still interested. They may not want such a small job. They claim that they can regrind any bed that is 4 feet by 19 feet with an accuracy of 0.000030 inches per foot. Not bad. I was thinking about getting my lathe bed reground (48" off of a heavy 10) until it got damaged in shipping. Does anybody want to buy a 48" SB heavy 10 lathe bed? It is 60 years old and I can provide pictures once the apron and headstock are removed. I could just ship it to the SB factory for a regrind and they can ship it to you. You pay shipping really one way if you are on the East coast. I will make a wooden box for it. Jim (605)
Bed truing and such.
As a lurker, I noticed a thread of interest regarding grinding of lathe ways. Some of you might be interested in learning more about scraping ways. By way of lack of attention to detail, I acquired an SB 13. Cir 1934 according to SB. Needless to say a formal examination during tear down revealed extensive wear at all suspect locations. Ways, saddle and of course the tail stock base plate. Until recently, I had no idea that SB would regrind old beds. I discovered that here. Compared to local quotes for grinding, SB's rates are reasonable. Even though, for me, they make no economic sense. Suffice to say, that I decided to scrape my out of a nasty position. The project is still some distance from completion but, so far, it's coming along nicely. For those interested, be warned that the process of scraping is one that will lend new definition to the word tedious. But it's not out of the question for those with the inclination, provided that time to completion is not an issue. There is very much that can be discussed on the matter and I won't burden the group with it on this introductory post but if anyone has specific questions, please post them and I will try my best to expand on what I have learned from the project so far. There is much more to be learned of that I'm certain. (625)
Well, since you offer I can't resist: I can I think understand how one would go about scraping in a smallish piece of stock while checking it on a surface plate. But how does one do something long and narrow like a lathe bed? What kind of reference surfaces do you use? And if the lathe has V ways, as SB's do, how do you handle that? Chris (626)
The matter of references, measurement and spotting tools is of course the most important consideration in any scraping project. All remarks are based on the assumption that critical leveling of the unit has been accomplished before hand. Confining my remarks to this SB13, I rely on a 3 ft Starrett straight edge though I wish it were longer and wider. A sensitive Starrett level and a pair dial indicators mounted on simple maple block which rides on the ways as they are being roughly pared down. The dial indicators monitor the working height of the way, relative to the flat surface below. Also the saddle must be scraped true, so it can be employed as a spotting tool as well. The unworn portion of the ways, along the head stock were left intact. I wanted them to remain as a touchstones for relative height and shape considerations, while the process of rough scraping continued. Since the tail stock end of the ways are much less worn than other areas, it's possible to bear the straight edge on those two points and, with feeler stock, determine the amount of material removed at given point in between. Later, I developed the simple maple block idea to hold a pair of dial indicators. Two inverted V's, in the block, closely approximate the way shape. The indicators are zero'ed at the head end and passed along the scraped portion. The intent is to monitor uniformity of stock removal. This block should be machined from metal stock but since we're all poor boyz here, we make do with what we have at hand. When way height is uniform within .001 or so, the tail stock end of the ways are pared down and the straight edge is used as a spotting instrument to bring each way surface into a straight uniform line. The dial indicators are used periodically to make sure that a height trend is not developing. BTW, when speaking of spotting, I am referring to the use of a dye marker that's placed on the spotting instrument and transferred to the working surface by a small rubbing motion. The marker that I'm using is called Hi Spot Blue, by Dykem. It's not the best and it's messy as hell but it was locally available. Since the amount of wear in an old machine can be extensive, it's also certain that the saddle is almost beyond hope. This one was. Fortunately, a shop in OH put me in touch with a material called Turcite. It's a plastic impregnated with Teflon and it's designed expressly for this application. After scraping the saddle straight and parallel, it's placed on the semi fashioned ways with the intent of determining how much Turcite must be added to bring it up to original working height and level. In this case, I added .043 to the front and .031 to the rear. Some distance down the road from there, it still looks like those numbers will be very close. Once the saddle is put in near original condition, it's also used to check scraping for positive bearing on all surfaces. Spotting compound is placed on the inverted ways and the saddle moved a small amount on the ways to indicate relative high and low spots. It would take a small book to cover the project and it's still not completed. But I would be happy to continue with this thread if there is continuing interest. (627)
Earl: Wouldn't you need a granite flat to put the bed on and then use that as a reference surface? The $1100 for a regrind sounds like a bargain given that the time required to do this yourself is probably going to be over 200 hours. What do you use to scrape the bed? An oilstone? How is the straight edge used? The saddle for a heavy 10 is on the order of at least $1443 and $1000 more for a casting. This part was trashed in my lathe and it was then that I decided to part it out. I think that the plastic on the saddle is going to wear quickly or be compressible. Some plastic will deform over time or after the absorption of machine oil. Reinventing the wheel can be fun, but should only be attempted by those with very much time on their hands. If it were me, I would get a second job and then send the bed out for a regrind and have the saddle repaired. The saddle on my lathe was very worn, but I did not measure how much. I'd be afraid to measure the flatness of the bed and how much material was missing from the saddle ways. It would be interesting to see how this turns out and how long it lasts. Keep us posted. Jim(628)
Jim: If a granite flat were required in order to maintain a condition of straight and level, it wouldn't be much of a machine tool. Moreover, if grinding or scraping were done while the bed were supported continuously, it would no longer be so when returned to its base and put into operation. Scraping "as she stands" makes more sense to me for that reason. Turcite is a material that was developed expressly for use in machine ways and bearing surfaces and has been used on new manufacture for some 20 odd years. It will probably not bear up as well as a metal surface but it has the virtue of being easily replaced while not materially affecting the cast iron surface on which it rides. I kinda like that. For this machine, once returned to service, it should last forever. Certainly that would be true for this type of casual service. Also consider that Turcite has the virtue of having a lower coefficient of friction as well. Your concerns for the viability of Turcite are probably widespread. If it turns out to be not as advertised I have lost little. Except the cost of a new saddle. There is only a couple of hours work in installing the Turcite. Materials are about $100 including the special epoxy. If money were no object, I would have had the ways reground had I known about it before starting. But, the extra cost was important for this application it means I can spend more on tooling. In addition to grind cost, there is also the matter of shipping from the west coast. I can't imagine anything less than an additional $500 round trip. Another factor to bear in mind with a regrind is that all elevations are changed by the regrind. So much so, that gears, lead screw and associated mechanisms must be repositioned relative to the new head stock elevation. I have no intention of scraping anything that changes the head stock position. It will remain at the same elevation as new. The saddle and the tailstock will be brought up to original plane or as close as I can finagle them. Your estimate of 200 hours is probably on the low side. I would guesstimate double that. It is tedious. At least the initial hogging off of material is. The low spot on this machine was .018. Exactly where you would expect it. On the inside of the front way and forward of the chuck. This meant that at least .018 has to be removed from all four surfaces. That's tedious. I'm presently trimming and finish scraping the ways. It's less tedious. But very time consuming nonetheless. The cycle of spotting, scraping, cleaning, re-sharpening the scraper and re-spotting is an endless repetition. Counted in the hundreds, if not thousands of times. Truly it's not for the faint of heart but neither is it beyond the capabilities of anyone with patience and the desire to see something hopeless come alive again. For scrapers, I was fortunate to have a couple of old files that were sufficiently hard. They may fall short of a commercial scraper if you can find one but they have served the purpose pretty well. If a commercial scraper would hold an edge better than a good file, I would buy it because an inordinate amount of time and effort is devoted to re-sharpening. Each cycle at least. The process of learning to re-sharpen properly and quickly was extensive. It demanded a lot of time, effort and experimentation to learn initially. Even though I have been a woodworker for many years and am accustomed to re-sharpening by hand. The proper edge is not one that looks like a wood chisel. Or any other chisel or plane iron you have ever seen. The proper edge is really a negative angle. It is somewhat greater than 90 degrees as it contacts the work surface. Think of rough honing a square - blunt - surface on the end of a (file) scraper. Then angle the scraper toward you about 10 degrees and fine hone the cutting edge. That's about the ideal in my experience. The overall cutting edge should be slightly ever so slightly radiused. The angle of attack relative to the work will vary slightly as the edge dulls. Shallow is possible when sharp and steeper as it dulls. Dull happens far too quickly. Hope that answers your questions. jmorrphd (629)
Earl, I think the thread you started on bed truing and scraping is very interesting. You got my respect just for having the "bottom" to tackle something that takes that much perseverance. Doubt I ever would, once I figured how many Sunday afternoons it would take in the shop listening to NPR while scraping away. Hougha! Go to it and keep us posted on the tricks and techniques. Has anyone purchased one of the books on scraping or machine tool repair that Lindsey publications sell? I would be interested in opinions on whether any of them are worth reading if I wanted to pick up enough knowledge and techniques for small scraping jobs. Maybe that is a miss-nomer, maybe there are no small scraping jobs if it takes over 200 hours to scrape the ways on a SB. Hmmm? (632)
Opinions wanted
Lacking a mill, is it feasible to lap the ways back to true? My carriage is somewhat wasp-waisted, haven't measured it yet but if I set the gib for no slop in the middle of the travel there's no getting it more than an inch either side of that before it binds up.. I'm thinking if I set the gib a little loose, the lapping compound will bite more at the ends of the travel where it is worn less...and if I use some yellow [soft] shim brass on the non-gib side, the iron will lap and the brass won't; seems to me I heard once that it's the harder material gets removed, not the softer lap... JWE? Mert? Anyone? scraping, I flaked the flat surfaces of the saddle, using the "bump" method. This is supposed to make it look as though the saddle was refurbished by an experienced professional, rather than a novice like me... manner to the saddle. Only one side of the dovetail was re-machined, since the gib protects the other side from wear. For setup in the mill, the gib was held in place by magnets, and the gib surface was indicated in. The photo also shows a brass shim I made to compensate for material removed by wear and machining. The trough (surface in the photo where the gib rests) also had to be milled to compensate for removed material. complete with taper attachment and cross feed screw. variation over the cross slide travel range. I am satisfied with how this project has turned out. The lathe works much better than before. (2801)
Lapping is a very fine process, and doesn't remove much material. That is why I had to resort to machining, which is much rougher. In _American Machinists Handbook_, by Colvin and Stanley, they write: "From a production standpoint lapping is not a stock removal operation. In no case should more than 0.0005-inch material be left for the lapping operation. Lapping is not intended to replace grinding, but further to refine pieces beyond that point of finish and accuracy produced by the grinding operation." (7th edition, p. 540, printed in 1940) To get an idea of how much wear you have on your saddle, you can place a straight reference bar (or even a cheap metal ruler) along the worn surface, and see what thicknesses of shims or leaf gage slide under the straight bar. Although I didn't do this for my saddle, I know that some of the old scoring marks were still visible, even after machining down more than 0.010-inch below the flat way surface. Jon (2802)
Is there anywhere beside the $100 book that I can read about scraping and frosting? I just cannot see spending that much money on that book yet. I would like to try my hand but I don't really understand what the tool looks like or what direction you are supposed to move it. Gerald (2805)
Gerald, I bought the book and video from the below web site. I found that they were both quite good. Tex http://www.machinerepair.com  (2806)
Interesting site and nice teasers for the book and video. I'm not sure if I still wouldn't buy Connelly's "Machine Tool Reconditioning" book over this because Connelly's book covers so much more. Even If I never do all the stuff in that book, I think I'd use enough of it to make it worth while, and the rest is just good reading and learning. I just love learning about all this. Paul R. (2810)
Bed regrinding/scraping required
I am a Southbend lathe user here in England, and have used my machine since the 1970 tees, originally it was made in 1955 for a tool room to make tapered components. Now is the time to restore this fine piece of US engineering, as the bed is very well worn in places and the saddle is a bit lofty. Would you like to point me please in the right direction, thank you and have a nice day. Is it correct that Southbend has been sold in the meantime? Al (3980)
Al, I don't have any experience with bed regrinding/scraping. Before you go through that process, have you checked to see how much the wear affects the accuracy of your lathe? A good procedure to do is "Rollie's Dad's Method of Lathe Alignment". For saddle repair, if the wear in the saddle prevents your cross slide from working well, then you can see what I did to a lathe in the "photos" section of this forum. I don't claim it to be the best method of repair, just the best that I was able to do as a novice. I have not heard about South Bend being sold. Jon (3982)
Al, I had my bed reground a few months ago. Southbend did it and what a beautiful job they did!! They also scrape the saddle to ride correctly on the bed. In retrospect I should have sent the complete saddle with everything on it up to the compound rest so they could have re-scraped all the wear surfaces. The price was around $1100. Alex (3984)
Alex; I was wondering if you could tell me how long the process of having your bed and saddle done took. I may be ready soon to take this step if I cant find one and just buy it. I wonder how long my lathe would have to be out because I use it almost daily in work. Jim (3996)
Jim, I actually deleted the emails I had with the factory. I believe it was quoted at 6-8 weeks and it took less than that. I emailed the service department and they replied right away. I had to send mine back to be redone though so it took even longer. It was no fault of South Bend. UPS destroyed the box shipping it back to me. These morons must understand that they cannot drop a 100 lb box off their truck. It makes no difference how good the box is it cannot be thrown around when that heavy. I sent it to the factory via FEDEX and it arrived without a scratch - Coincidence? If you use your lathe right now a lot you can always find a worn out bed + saddle for a relatively cheap price, get that one reground and swap it with the one you have when it is finished. Or use the worn out one for now and send in your original one....just thinking out loud. Alex (3998)
Thanks for all the kind and considered e-mail which you have send to me and the advice you have given. I will now get my parts shipped to Southbend and await their good work to be done, as my machine is being used every day here in the workshop . Al (3999)
Alex I will remember to use FedEx even though I do hate the *** They have lost so many things for us. But UPS has a rep of breaking heavy things too. I have been trying to buy another bed and replace mine or have one reground but I am upgrading so far with the old girl that I really would like to get a newer bed first. I am going from a single tumbler qc to a wide range and several other modest changes just for the h of it I guess. I could re-drill and all the mounting on this 43 mod. but a mid 70s would bolt together. If I can find one cheap I would still regrind. I had a old machinist tell me years ago that there are no better beds. If a bed is reground after say 30 yrs in the field and made like new because there are no way any stress or such could be left in the old thing. So grinding is a definite maybe for me. Thanks for all the help Did you crate or just box the bed? I seen one guy sent me one, great bed but wrong config. that he knew how to crate a bed. He bolted through the bed one bys of lumber and then strapped them together and even ups tried to tare the thing up and busted two boards but didn't hurt the ways. Just wondering. Jim (4004)
Regrinding ways
Have any of you all out there ever send your lathe back to SB to have to have the ways reground and/or the saddle and cross slide. Was just wondering the cost and turn around time. However with the current state that SB is in this may be a thing of the past anyway. Wonder if LeBlond will be doing any regrinding or repair. Ed (4509)
It cost about $1100 and 4 - 6 weeks of time. They did an excellent job. Like new. Alex (4512)
Bed grinding, help?
I got my 10" stripped down and everything looks good except there is a strange bit of wear on part of the ways. The ways that the carriage rides on look fine, but the one "V" way in the back that the tailstock rides on has a long, low wear spot around the middle. It looks like someone let the steel piece of the way wiper fall down and it acted like a scraper. But this is only on one side of the "V". So will this affect tailstock accuracy? The tailstock seems to slide back and fourth over this spot without catching. Has anyone had their lathe ways re-ground? I am assuming this is not cost effective for old lathes although I have heard of it being done. I had a guy in town quote 500 to 1000 bucks, which is probably not worth it for me. Joe V. (4792)
I have a lathe with a similar problem. I am going to have the scored side of the way filled with either Turcite or Moglice. I am thinking of moglice as it is castable and the groove in the back of my front way is quite deep. I am thinking of using a piece of ground flat stock to form the outside of the mold. Turcite comes in strips and is applied and then scraped. I am not sure how hard it is to scrape this stuff vs. regular scraping of a flat surface which is an art that takes time to learn. Perhaps you could get the guy that offered to regrind your ways to do the job. The price he quoted you to regrind the ways is quite reasonable so perhaps he would do this for a couple of hundred. Yasmiin (4793)
Ways regrinding
I talked to South Bend last week and was told that things looked good at the present to have the doors open again and doing some work around the first part of August. I am considering sending or taking my lathe to them and having the ways reground and saddle scraped in to fit. Have any of you all ever sent your lathe to them for regrinding. Is it expensive and what about the quality of their work.. Also was told they might be getting part of the parts business back. Hope so as my order to LEBLOND has still not been shipped after almost 2 months. ED (5240)
I was quoted about $1200 for a 3.5' bed. A local guy that does all makes of lathes quoted $400. Marv (5242)
Where are you located and who's the local guy? I'm near Chicago and haven't had any luck finding anyone that'll touch regrinding my bed. (5247)
Maybe I'm wrong on this, but didn't SB's quote include matching the components to the bed after grinding? I can't imagine getting away with less than about$600 for re-scraping the saddle, making sure the cross-slide alignment remains square with the ways; re-scraping and aligning the tailstock with spindle parallel both directions, and then re-scraping the headstock, aligned both directions and concentric on height with the TS center height. I could probably do the saddle in a short evening, the TS including alignments in a long 2, and the headstock might take 2 or 3. On the headstock, most of the time would be spent aligning and inspecting, though that is where the most metal would need removed to get back down to TS center height, which wears a lot more. smt (5248)
I'll grab his number (it's at work) for you. I am not endorsing this guy, I'm just passing on what I was quoted. I'll post his number Monday night and you can talk to him and see if it meets your needs. He is located near Dayton, Ohio. Marv (5249)
$400.00 would scare me. the guy I know won't touch a lathe or mill for les then $1000.00 there's more to it then just grinding the ways. I don't know everything involved but there seemed to be a lot of attention to detail that he had on our mill. And now its better then the factory specs. Just remember sometimes you get what you pay for. Kerry (5251)
Yeah. I would agree with that and that is why I qualified it by stating that I don't endorse this guy, only that I am passing on knowledge. I have not seen his work or know his credentials. He might be amazing or he may make a mess. If you want my opinion (and I'll still give it even if you don't), I would list the manufacture as the first place to go, bar none. Given that SB is in deep trouble right now, you need to weigh the risk of the plant closing and the possible loss of your lathe (worst case). It is not an easy choice, either way. Marv (5252)
Company near Chicago that can do it is condor precision scraping service. they are right across from midway airport. gerry wosniak. (? sp) is the guy you want to talk to. Condor Machine Tool CO 5315 West 63rd Street, Chicago, IL 60638 (773) 767-5985 they do great work. I have had them work on a couple of other things, not my lathe. Only thing is they have a pretty good backlog and do lots of travel work. It might be a while however, I was very happy after my wait for my stuff. dennis (5269)
I just spent a week making a t-slot cross slide for myself and I had considered re-grinding my bed also. One thing I learned the last few weeks is that you have to be careful putting newly re-furbished parts on a worn out lathe. My new cross-slide is flat, but the carriage ain't. If your bed needs to be re-ground then the odds are good that the carriage and tailstock are "worn in" to the "worn" bed. My point is that re-grinding may create more problems than it fixes. Joe V. (5378)
Dennis, all, Still there ? the post was from July. How long was the wait ? about anyway, I know it will always change, but 6 weeks is lots different than 26 weeks. and roughly speaking, how much did he charge ? There is a guy here in the Philly area that does Bridgeports exclusively, at about $400.00 each. takes about 6 weeks and he will not travel. seems he's got all he wants or needs. I am still looking into the best way to get the 9" up to speed. Seems the grinding is easier than hand scraping or Moglice. one of those exchange $$ for time things. In searching, I have not found many people that did re-surface the ways. anyone want to post their experiences ? Dave (6290)
This issue has been discussed on several lists so I wonder sometimes when I am reposting material. As most of you know I rebuild machine tools so the issue of resurfacing ways in one that comes up often. First I would say that the $ 400 that that guy is charging for doing a Bridgeport is the bargain of the century. It costs me $ 1500 to have the ways of a Monarch 10EE done and that's with me tearing down the machine and putting it back together. I would love to find someone to do a machine for that kind of a price. One of the issues about regrinding the ways of a lathe is the cost of a way grinder. One of these beasts cost lots of money and is the size of a small house. Then the work done right is a fussy business. Lots a gaging and regaging till things are just right. All that said the $ 1500 is probably a fair price. I never learned to scrape a large surface flat and square etc. I am building up to repairing the ways of a couple of 10EE with Moglice. There is a whole lot of gages that I am buying slowly over time to be able to do this work. You might get a person that does scraping to come out and scrape your 9" bed. So then there are three methods that will restore original accuracy of the machine. 1) Grinding with a bit of scraping. 2) Scraping 3) Moglice / Turcite and scraping. I can rationalize buying the gages and tools to do this work myself as, once I learn how, there are a whole lot of machines that need work. I am still afraid that my skill level won't get beyond the Moglice type repair for some time so that seems to send me back to option one for most things and perhaps some work just scraping where things require just a small amount of work to get trued up again. Let us know what you decide and if you find a guy that does scraping let us know. And that request goes for anyone that knows someone any where in the US that does affordable work. Yasmiin(6291)
Here is my two cents; I have a 10 heavy SouthBend lathe with a 5' bed. I tried to scrape the bed true and then realized that I goof big time. Sobels in NJ recommended a company in Brooklyn NY but they wanted $900 to regrind the ways only. tried other machine tool rebuilders and they either didn't want to be bothered or their prices were in the same range. Then one day through the B to B pages I found a company called RHS machine tool rebuilders in Newark, NJ about 1.5 hours from were I lived. The owner asked if I was using the lathe for a business? I told him that I was a hobbyist and my wife was pissed that I bought the lathe to begin with. He told me if I was willing to drop off a clean, bed, carriage and tail stock he would regrind the bed machine the carriage and line with Turcite and scrape the tail stock. 4 to 6 weeks later the job was done and I paid the owner $375. This was about 5 years ago. Now I have a good lathe that I need to upgrade because The 10" swing is starting to become a little to small for the work I now get to support my hobby. For what its worth, if you speak to the owner and are willing to wait go can get a good deal. Most rebuilders seem to send their work out in bulk to the guys that own the big grinders. don (6310)
I got a quote for $850.00 for grinding the bed of my 42 inch long 9" includes carriage and tailstock. I would have to disassemble the unit, ship only those parts, and I would need to shim up the tailstock after the work. 3-4 weeks. Any recommendations on this ? Anything to watch out for ? shipping ? sending all the parts ? painting before (powder coating/oven hardening) or after ? Dave (6376)
Got to agree with Alphawolf. Reading is a long way from being. You have to be a special person to do this kind of work. I too have the book. In the first chapter, it outlines the profile of the candidate. First you need to have a good general grounding in machine shop. Then you MUST have the patience of an oyster. Without these 2 elements forget it. BUT it IS a worthwhile book. I would try my hand at making and using a scrapper. Make up 2 6X6X1 inch plates. Face them on a lathe, get some Prussian blue, make up some scrapers and go for it. It can either be great therapy or a ticket to the nuthouse! Ron (6446)
Bed re-scraping
Is it possible for just anyone to re-scrape a lathe bed or do you have to some unusual genetic make-up and gift to do so? Philip (5745)
Well I am told by old timers that the guys in the scraping department used to weigh 250 to 300 lbs and have fore arms the size of trees. I keep hoping that a scraping class will come available in the Pacific North West. I keep trying to screw up my courage to try on my own buy usually end up solving the problem in other ways. I sure would like to hear from anybody has hands on experience on learning how to do it and actually doing it on one of their machines. Yasmiin (5747)
Yasmiin Try this site out and check out the files section of the group. Also, get a book called building the Gingery Lathe from Lindsey's books, and they are also available on eBay Click this link http://www.groups.yahoo.com/group/gingery_machines Clint (5752)
Yes I have theory up the wazoo. , it s the practical experience that I am trying to find. Any self taught scarpers out there? Did you have to scrap your first couple of machines? Yasmiin (5753)
I have never done it but the way I understand it, the hardest part is patience, it is not hard but slow process. there are some hands own experienced folks in the gingery group that have done it, join it and ask. Clint (5754)
Scraping is like golf, easy to pick up but tough to master. I am not very good at either but enjoy the time I spend doing them. I 'consulted' a local scraper hand for advice. His advise was to get the Morgan book and video. this was about a year ago and I think I was one of the last ones to get them before mike's troubles started. I don't know if he has gotten everything straighten out, but well worth the read. His other advice was to get the sandvik carbide chip scraper and use the carbide inserts. second to that is the Anderson tube scraper forget what the gingery guys preach about files and such. Those guys like spending 50 hours scheming how to save 50 cents. If you have that much time to waste then go for it. Me, I have more important things to do like making a living and enjoying my free time. I like instant gratification sometimes. The best $50 bucks I spent was on the scraper and inserts. To sharpen them, I borrow time on a carbide grinder at a friends. aside from that, I use the marking medium from dapra. I started to used a piece of 1/2" plate glass as a surface, and then invested into a surface plate when one became available at the price I was willing to pay. (18X24, b s, circa 1928, original surface, wooden lid). as far as scraping goes, yes it is tedious manually. But there is measurable progress. the physical act of scraping itself is only one fourth to one third the process. Figuring out how much and where to remove metal is the bulk of it. As with all machining, the precision is what you put into it and how much setup time you take. So far, I have flattened my phase 2 level, flattened one side of my MLA transfer block and am working on on getting the other side parallel. Most of my work was done in the winter. As the weather is nice, I prefer to spend it outside and enjoy the sunshine. dennis (5756)
Well I guess you could say I got a gift I had the opportunity to help a retired scraper rebuild our mill while being instructed on what he was doing and why. I won't claim to know it all there were some things he did that didn't make since to me but when he was done the machine was better then new. There is no secret to it. It is time consuming and can easily be fouled up be getting in a hurry. One thing though the job can't be done correctly with out a "master" and to the old scraper the master was a piece of precision steel in the opposite shape of what he was scraping on. we had a few masters for working on the mill. I got to run I'll post more after work. Kerry (5761)
I didn't hear about this - what kind of troubles has Mike run into? (5765)
I live in Sultan that s 6 miles East of Monroe on State Rt. # 2. Have you found any good sources for used machinery? I sure would like to avoid some of the shipping costs that I pay from the East Coast. Yasmiin (5766)
His machine repair business failed, and iirc there were also some family problems. In the midst of everything, the bank was claiming ownership of the copyright to his books and video, which prevented him from selling any. It looks like he has the copyright issue resolved, because he is filling orders. www.machinerepair.com Look through the archived posts on the chaski board for details. Ken (5768)
Philip- Scraping a flat surface is "easy" and you could probably pick up the skills in a few days of practice. A day or so with someone on hand to get you started, and help you avoid pitfalls like scraping too fine too early. However, as someone else pointed out, scraping a machine tool is all about alignments. You can not just go on it and scrape. There are always alignments that must be correct in at least 2 axis, often all 3 axis, to tenths (.0001's). To consider a SB lathe bed, there are 7 flat surfaces on the top, and one under the back ledge, for which the axis of alignment must all be dead parallel, with no taper, and no twist to the surfaces, to within a couple tenths for the entire length of the bed. Each of these 8 long narrow surfaces also has a particular, though less critical angularity with the rest. In a sense, (mechanically speaking, i.e.) it is "easy" because there is not much metal surface area in SB lathe ways, and it is pretty uniform and soft material. (reason why SB ways wear as you look at them). You also need some expensive tools. A straight edge as long as the ways. If you have some experience, you can probably use one within about 80% of the length. You could use a 3 footer to do a 42" bed, e.g. You would be stretching your luck and maybe lying to yourself to use it for a 48" bed unless you do have some real experience. A new Challenge 4' straight edge was over $1500 and climbing about 10 years ago when I last checked. If you have a good surface plate as long across the diagonals as the straight edge, you can sometimes buy a used one on eBay for in the $500 range, and touch up scrape and "re- qualify" them yourself. As you can imagine, you need some test indicators, one or more precision levels (.0005"/ft/divison or better, like the Starrett 199), typical inspection tools and micrometers, parallels, adjustable parallels, planer gage, scrapers, and usually a number of shop made gages and tools scraped to fit or made for the task. For instance, I would recommend making a gage for the ways of the lathe as a starting point. Remove the headstock, and machine and precisely scrape fit a substantial stress relieved CI gage to the ways in the unworn area perhaps 3 or 4 inches long. This will be used to keep the ways in the same relationship at the headstock and tailstock ends. Use it routinely after every lay of the straight edge. The top of the gage should be flat and parallel to the reference plane of the ways; so you can use the precision level on it to avoid twist in the length of the lathe bed. Every time you scrape one surface, it throws the whole relationship in a specific direction. You need to use the spotting information and developed way condition to plan where to scrape and how to throw it to get the alignment where it needs to be, while removing the least amount of metal. (both to save the lathe, and to save work). As far as scraping, use the info from spotting, don't be shy, dig in deep and shovel off the bad stuff until the hollows start to disappear and everything begins to line up. Then settle down and scrape for fineness and finish. BTW, never (let me repeat, _NEVER_) force the markings. A bad habit to get into is to press and rub your marking tools in a way that "makes" the marks appear where you "think" they should be or "want" them to appear. That ruins your gages, and of course makes bad work and wastes time. Use good procedures, a light touch on the marking tools, and trust them. (If you don't trust them, prove them before using, or you are wasting time) The "bible" is _Machine Tool Reconditioning_ by Edward F Connelly. Check you Library or inter-library loan. It is available new for around $100, they advertise in HSM. (Gloat: got mine from the late author himself, back when he had just raised the price to 27.50, and I though that was a lot of money!). I've been scraping for a bit more than 15 years, enough to have forgotten a lot of the small items. My first piece was an MLA fitters straight edge, still much used for scraping dovetails and small pieces. Major pieces include a complete re-scrape of a large sized mill-drill after wearing it out once. All the accessories to a Hardinge split bed lathe. The front end (ramways are pressure oiled and didn't need it) and vise of a Rockford heavy 16" shaper, a Brown Sharpe 6 x 18 grinder, some woodwhacking machines including the copehead slide ways on a tenoner, headstock, spdle bearings and slideways of a Greenlee automatic mortiser, slideways on a heavy double spindle shaper, many, many dozens of gages, small pieces, flats, assemblies, etc., etc. Smt (5769)
I agree. Without reservation MTR is the bible, and a great (if slow) read. All I've scraped are chuck back-plates and the underside of a 7x10 lathe bed, but I really appreciate the thought and experience Connelly put into his book. I purchased my copy about 6 months ago (at its current high price). Paul R. (5770)
Great -- I have had the book for 15 years but never tried to scrape something. This shows that one can "learn" but don't expect to scrape a bed any time soon. Still sounds lake a lot of work and a big time upfront expense for tools. Wonder how this compares to a Turcite coating followed by scraping. Still the same for tools but wonder about the learning curve? Yasmiin(5773)
Think the idea of Turcite (or more probably you are referring to one of the castable bearing products) misses the point. The work is not in physically scraping off the rather soft cast iron ways. It is in all the stopping, inspecting, and spotting to keep the alignments in shape. I didn't even get to the ones you have to do to get the headstock and tail stock aligned for height, dead on collinear with both barrels parallel to the bed (no slope either way). Don't forget, crosslide dead square with the ways, for facing, or a very few tenths concave cutting from the front to center, across say 6". No, I personally can't see a significant time advantage for using a castable bearing product. That aside, I have doubts that there are really durable castables suitable for long narrow ways, yet. Turcite will embed grit and act as a lap. Castables are somewhat soft, and abrade accordingly if unprotected as would be the case with open ways. Most such products are intended to form the surface that rides on the ways. I have never worked with Turcite, but I have worked with machines that were turcited by professionals (Hardinge factory, for one) and imperfect adherence can still be an issue in unfavorable circumstances. My understanding from people who have worked with it is that it is expensive, and not a panacea if the system is ill designed to accommodate it. It might be an interesting experiment to turcite the saddle itself, and maybe the crosslide. You have given me an idea, though. Instead of machining the master gage for keeping the ways in alignment with factory geometry, it may be worth researching a castable product to make that gage, possibly with a touch up scrape fitting for any slight dimensional change after a suitable post cure rest period. I have reprothane materials for foundry pattern duplication that have ridiculously low shrinkage and distortion characteristics. Would imagine the bearing materials are at least as stable. Yasmiin (5777)
Well I was thinking of turcite in long flat strips and not a castable bearing compound. It's is used on ways a lot. Yes it can in bed grit but that is the very problem I am trying to fix on my first Moglice outing. A Monarch 10EE that was used as a cutoff machine for 20+ years and no one paid any attention to chips being buried under the inside front V way wiper. As you probably know Monarch 10EE ways are harder than about any way ever made. Scraping on the way isn't an option so filling in this case is the only solution. That is in bedding grit / chips is a problem on any machine if you don't keep it clean. However, I do have a neat old surface grinder that I got for $ 30 and scraping will work there and on a number of other machines if I could learn how. One of my concerns is the number of bearing points per square inch. The Turcite / moglice talks about 10 per sq. inch with 60% full contact. Other publications talk of 40+ per square inch. 10 I think I could do but the higher #'s seem out of reach. As to tools you are certainly pointing out the large investment. However, I do think you can do things without a Colinear (Colimeter (SP)). I do agree that they are great but really expensive. Yasmiin (5786)
Yasmiin! No I do not know any good sources, but I'm sure there is some in Seattle or Tacoma. There is Benoit sheet metal up close to your neck of the woods that I have used in the past. They usually carry new used sheet metal equip. though. Check out there web www.benoitsheetmetal.com You never know what they might have. I live in Bremerton ,WA. I usually go up to the Monroe swap meet twice a year. Butch (5899)
Recutting the ways
A machinist friend of mine came to my little shop this past weekend with the bed of a wore out 9 inch SouthBend lathe. The lathe really is wore beyond reasonable effort to repair. He clamped the 36 inch long south bend bed onto the table of my vertical mill and cut all the surfaces of the ways. I was certain it was not possible to make a good job of it because my vertical mill only has 25 inches of x travel so it was necessary to cut all that he could , then unclamp the bed and move it over . Indicate it back in and clamp .And then he made the continued cuts join up with barely a tenth of a thousands difference. Very impressive work. As I said in the first paragraph the old 9 inch lathe is really ragged out all over. He has the bed and the carriage finished now .He had my only vertical mill tied up all weekend when I would have liked to be using it myself. I was so impressed though with seeing the work being done by a very skilled machinist that I am hoping that he comes back to finish the rest of the old lathe. Going to be interesting if he decides to hob out new gears for this machine with the equipment that I have in my shop. The question that came up .The old lathe did not have hardened ways and was wondering how common that was or does it indicate that it was a cheap hobby lathe or old as hell or what? Alphawolf45 (6128)
Many lathes of this class, including, I think, most South Bend, and most Logan Lathes, did not have hardened beds, except as an option. This does NOT indicate a "cheap hobby lathe." It is a way to save on the cost of manufacture, and if the bed is a high quality casting (such as the SB or Logan) it is a reasonable compromise.  Scott Logan (6130)
Was the 9" SB ever available with hardened ways? My 1958 catalog talks about optional hardened ways for the 10" and larger, but not the 9". Even with the larger lathes, I don't think hardened ways ware a common option in that era, although it became more common as time went on, until I believe it became standard on the heavy 10 (the only lathe of that vintage whose production continued to the present). In any case, lathes without hardened ways are clearly not necessarily "cheap, hobby lathes". There are certainly cheap, hobby lathes out there without hardened ways, (as well as with hardened ways), but there are also high quality (older) lathes (including the 9" SB) without them. Frank (6131)
My 1963 SB catalog says hardened ways optional. My 1968 SB catalog says says from the heavy 10 up hardened ways were standard. Walt (6150)
Ways regrinding info.
There has been some discussion of late about ways regrinding. I just got an email from Southbend. They quoted me $950 to regrind the bed of a 3 1/2 Heavy 10 and $270 to scrape and fit the saddle. Just thought I'd post this in case some of you are thinking about rebuilding and now that SB is up and running again. I hope for a long time to come. (6456)
Southbend is back in business? I thought I just saw an auction URL itemizing their inventory of tools and everything else up for grabs in their Southbend IN. plant. Jim (6458)
No they are history but the person may have been talking to the company that took over the spare parts section of their business. I believe that company does some rebuild work on several machines that they sell spare parts for. Yasmiin (6460)
I guess that would be LeBlond? Does anyone know where the machine has to be taken? Jim (6461)
I think I may need to clarify my recent post concerning ways regrinding. South Bend is indeed back in business and up and running. I talked at length this morning to Randy Reynolds, service manager at SB. South Bend has been bought by a employee who has about 30 years with the company. They plan on building the same line of lathes and etc. as before with perhaps the addition of another geared head lathe. Mention has been made of a recent auction at SB. This was to sell off a lot of old and outdated equipment.. LeBlond will still handle parts for SB. So if you need parts, manuals or info on a serial number contact LeBlond If you need your lathe rebuild call South Bend. Their phone number and web site remain the same. Turn around time for regrinding is about 6 to 8 weeks.. I wish South Bend the best and hope they are around another 100 years. So pass this info along and visit their website and give them a holler. Ed (6466)
Thank you for posting this very informative message. I have just today spoken with Randy who is extremely knowledgeable and helpful. If he is an example of the "new" SB, then it will take over the world! I hope their company goes public - what a great place! Frank (6469)
Heavy Ten bed regrind
I just got my Heavy Ten Toolroom Lathe Bed back from South Bend where they reground the 4' bed and scraped in the saddle. The ways are in excellent condition. The saddle was scraped to fit the bed and was surprised to find they also scraped in the cross-slide surfaces. I had already carefully scraped in the crosslide flat and parallel because I thought I would need it as a tool to scrape in the cross-slide surfaces. Saved me a lot of time. While it was in South Bend I had a chance to inspect the 5 C headstock, apron, gearbox, and the telescoping taper attachment. Found them all in very good condition. This 30 some year old lathe was sold to Amp Corp and from the copper shavings was not used for heavy duty stuff. The full collet stuff that came with it looks like it may have been used that way, with little threading ,etc. The 2 speed motor and pushbutton control also look great. I got a new ad from SB and found at today's prices of the optional 2 speed motor and controls would have bought me this lathe with lots of extras and the cost of regrinding. The new SB Heavy Ten Toolroom lathe they sell today looks and has all the same equipment as mine except it has a 4-1/2' bed and hardened ways. It lists ( April 1, 2000 ) at $ 16,000 and the 2 speed motor and control is $ 2,200 in addition not counting tax and shipping. Needless to say I am looking forward to putting everything back together and running it. For you guys on the fence to bring your lathes to great shape call Randy Reynolds 1-800-245-2843 at South Bend and get a quote. Great guy to deal with. Walt (9007)
If it is not to tacking to ask about how much does it cost to get a bed reground and scraped? (9015)
It was $ 1220 total and they made my lathe like new. Since I took it 100 miles south of me to SB in Indiana, no cost for shipping, etc, except cost of gas. Walt (9019)
sounds to me like a very fair price for that amount of work. Congratulations on your "new " lathe! Frank (9022)
Seams fair to me. (9023)
Walt, I did a search and found this message. I had remembered it from when you first posted it, no senior moment on this fortunately. Could you please tell me how long it took for the whole process? I live in Ohio and can handle the shipping myself and would like to get my 9 inch rejuvenated like you heavy 10. Jim (11992)
How much disassembly did you have to perform for them to do it at this price? Bryan (14515)
Although this post wasn't directed to me, I thought I might reply. I received my Heavy 10 bed back from SB last week. Total turn around time was a little over 2 weeks. However I got lucky as they were already doing some 10 inch models and worked mine in. Ways look new. Saddle scraped in to fit ways. Only thing I sent was basic bed with nothing attached and basic saddle. Total cost was $1450 not including shipping. Hardest part was building a sturdy crate to ship in...Not cheap but I have what amounts to a new machine that should out last me and at a fraction of the cost of a new machine. Ed (14519)
I have never tried these guys in Tennessee http://www.schmiedecorp.com, but I suspect they do a lot of work for the DOD. Prices they have quoted me are less than half of what I am seeing on these posts. If you try them, let me know what you think. Neil (14536)
The service that LeBlond does is more than just way grinding. IIRC they do EVERYTHING to bring the lathe back into spec: scrape in the alignment of the saddle, the tailstock, shim the leadscrew to maintain alignment with the saddle, align the headstock, flake the ways. grinding is only about 1/3 to 1/2 of the work. maybe someone who had it done can post the all the things that were done to their lathe. (14538)
Are you speaking of LeBlond as an alternative to South Bend? It's confusing since LeBlond bought SB's parts inventory, but SB is now "back" in biz, etc. I'm moving closer and closer towards accepting that my 10L needs some serious rework. Wrb (14561)
Bed scraping?
I understand the concept (the bed is checked for high spots and a "scraper" is used to take them off), but I see comments like "my bed still had 75% scraping". So what does this "scraping" look like? anyone have links to pictures? just how smooth and level does it get the bed? while I'm at it, what does the scraper look like? and what about the mention that these scraping marks carry oil on the bed??? I've also seen mention of ridges on the bed where it may be worn. are there ridges that show up on a bed with the vee-ways? I don't see any ridges on mine, and the bed appears to be pretty straight, but I don't have any way to check the entire length of it in one shot. andy b. (13610)
Most accurate way to check bed condition is to cut a test bar or mandrel and check wear that way. (13611)
Andy, Here are my 2 cents .... When people refer to "75% scraping" they are usually referring to flaking (or frosting) which is a finish that is put onto the surface after it has been scraped flat. The finish is scraped in and resembles flakes, or fish scales. (A little more detail at http://machinerepair.com Look under your tail stock. Wipe the Vs clean and look at the surface at an angle. You'll probably see it. Regarding the ridges, V ways get them too. Mine has them. The ways originally looked like this (I think). ----- / / As the carriage wears, the ways start to look more like this ... _______ | | / / You can probably feel the ridge before you can see it. Sorry about the ASCII art. If you haven't already, I recommend reading .... http://www.mermac.com/advicenew.html  http://www.mermac.com/klunker2.html  Corrections anyone? - Jeff (13612)
Hardening vs. scraping/glaking
Were any light 10s (10K) produced with hardened ways? Mine has very little wear on it but no sign of flaking Frank Congratulations on your "new" lathe. I also have a 1957 heavy 10 with hardened ways. At least in 1957, most heavy 10's were sold with unhardened ways, which were scraped and flaked rather than ground, as ours were. The optional hardened ways cost something like 10% of the total cost of the lathe, which I expect cut down on sales. I think as time went on, hardened ways became more common on heavy 10's. Later (much later), all heavy 10s came with hardened ways. (15607)
My 1957 catalog simply says says 10" in the options for hardened ways, not "heavy 10" or 10L, so it is not clear if it includes the 10K, although I suspect they mean the heavy 10. However, my 1960 catalog explicitly shows hardened ways as an option for both the 9" and 10K, as well as the bigger lathes. So if yours is a later heavy 10 (post 1960) it is certainly a possibility. If there is no flaking, even on the part of the bed under the headstock, then it seems to me likely it is hardened. Try a file on an unimportant part of the ways. A file just slides over mine. Frank (15618)
I think the way to tell is to look at the serial number or underneath the headstock. There should be an 'X' or 'R' in the serial number or cast on the bottom side of the bed where the headstock sits. What vintage of lathe is yours? I think the Korea beds where hardened, but have no frosting on them. There should be a tag or plate stating so. The Korean beds have different feet than the US beds. I think the two beds I have that have an 'X' underneath the headstock, did have frosting or scales. And hardened beds can wear. Tom (15628)
Were any lathes produced with hardened ways prior to 1937 or so? I can't find any traces of flaking on my lathe, even in the headstock area. it is a 1936 11". The spindle and bearings look excellent as well. Is it possible this bed was reground at a later date? if so, would they have stayed with the normal scraping, or could they have changed to hardened? If none of this is possible, what would have been done to the lathe to remove all traces of flaking? andy b.(15654)
Andy I don't see any reference to hardened ways as an option in either my 1952 or my 1943 catalog. The first reference I have to hardened ways is in 1956, and from reports on this group, it appears that buying that option in the mid-1950s was relatively rare. That of course doesn't mean yours aren't hardened. Perhaps the factory would do it on special order, even though it wasn't in the catalog. I would grab a file and a piece of mild steel (as a reference), and compare the degree to which the file "bites" on the mild steel versus some place on the ways where a touch with a file won't matter. That should tell you if they are hard. On mine there is a clear difference. If your ways are ground but not hard, I would guess someone had the lathe rebuilt (using the regular, mild semi-steel bed) and chose grinding over scraping and flaking. Frank (15720)
Interesting point, Now how does one exactly scrape? Do you put down that blue scraping paste, slide the saddle on the bed, then scrape off the high points on the saddle? keep doing this until max surface is riding on ways? Now how do you pay attention to how much metal your removing on both sides, so the saddle rides evenly? Scraping sounds like a skill that one could greatly benefit from. Perhaps I should buy that book on reconditioning machine tools. (15731)
When I first started the re-construction process, I found a very good saddle on ebay (from Andyswift). my idea was to find a new bed. 2nd hand parts for SB lathes are difficult to find in Canada. Then I started thinking that there might be a way to re-condition a bed at home. I borrowed a copy of Machine tool reconditioning (Conelli) and learned the basics of hand scraping. The most difficult thing is to get good reference surfaces. a good surface plate (I got a small 6 X 8 cast iron plate) a good straight edge. (I wish I had one of these master precision straight edge that were thrown away because rusted at the SB plant) I am not an expert on scraping bur I achieved amazing results so far on parts like a SB taper attachment dovetail The principle is simple: on the clean reference surface, I apply a thin layer of marking blue (a drip of oil increases the ease of transfer of blue). I lay the surface to be scraped on the reference surface. If the part is small, a small pressure is required. You move the part to be scraped by about 1 inch back and forth. You remove it carefully. With a good light, you inspect the markings. With a scraper, you remove the metal where the marking blue has left markings. You cycle your part until you get a good contact between the surfaces. A file is also handy if there is too much work involved. (for instance a ridge in the V ways on the saddle casting must be removed before any scraping attempts is made. Otherwise, it is a waste of time) To spot a saddle on bed ways, you must select the best spot on the bed. (quite likely at the tailstock end) To re-surface a bed at home, a good straight edge is required. I will briefly describe my approach First, I machined a mild steel plate with V ways like the tailstock bottom casting. I scraped the surfaces touching the bed ways to get a nearly perfect match. (required for the headstock alignment on the bed ways) I used the section located under the headstock for this purpose second: I re-condition the tailstock ways (V and flat ways) that are likely the least worn of the lathe by hand scraping (I am still at this step) The steel plate machined earlier is going to be used to ensure that the slide is perfectly corrected. A master precision level will allow to find inaccuracies on the slide third: On the same reference plate, I mount 2 compound rests that will support a cutting tool. The cutting tool will remove a slight surface on the inverted V ways on the lathe. If the tailstock slide is straight, then it should straighten the other ways. Finishing is then done by hand scraping. It will be a long process, but it is achievable. On my bed I figured out that I have to remove 0.006 in material on each sliding surface before I start scraping. According to dial gauge readings taken with the bed mounted on an old horizontal milling machine at a school I was teaching. I was just allowed to set up the bed and do a check. I couldn't take a slight cut) For those that talk about re-building a lathe, a full understanding of Chap. 26 of Machine Tool re-conditioning is a MUST before you do anything. It lays out step by step the reconstruction of a lathe and its final alignment. Guy (15736)
I used to watch the scrapers at Pratt and Whitney work on the machine ways. Their precision straightedge was made of Granite. They would put one color dye on the straightedge and wipe it until it was not visible then they would put another color dye on the part to be scraped and wipe it until you couldn't see it. Then they would carefully place the straightedge on the part and rub it in a circular motion just a couple of times. The high spots would show up clearly and be scraped down. It was a long and tedious process which was repeated for anywhere from a few days to a few weeks. The reference edges were checked with a laser interferometer periodically. I personally don't have the patience to do that type of job. They did hand fit the cylinder to the head on my Porsche and it was an air tight fit with no gasket. JP (15738)
My 16" has hardened and ground ways you can tell by the heat discoloration of the metal. Look around where the headstock rests you should see bands of blue from the heat. (15818)
To scrape or not to scrape
The tailstock on my 9" SB lathe is worn. The flat way on the base has been worn about .006" at the front tapering to about .003" at the back. This causes the drill to tip down considerably toward the headstock. In fact, I was drilling an 8" deep hole (from both sides) recently and had the drill jam on the lands about 3" behind the edge. The bed looks fairly good. Worn no more than .002" where the tailstock sits when drilling, about 12" from the headstock. The outer ways don't look worn any more than the inner ways. Here is the problem: I have to replace the headstock, (don't ask long story) which is no big deal in itself. But if I have to scrape the tailstock straight, I'll also have to lower the headstock to match. To do justice to that job I am thinking I should re-scrape the inner ways. This job will need the carriage removed for convenience sake. SO… should I scrape the outer ways at the same time? Or am I just making extra work for myself? OR… should I install the replacement headstock, and use Moglice (I think that's what it's called) to bring the tailstock into alignment with the headstock. One further factor I should bring into this is that the lathe NEEDS to be repainted. Some previous owner used floor paint gray and a broom. It looks about 1/8" thick in some places. Although this doesn't affect the performance at all it sure looks crummy. What to do? Pete (16018)
Before you do anything be sure that your bed is not twisted. Read 14132 first. I had thought my lathe was good. My tailstock seemed to be down about 0.015. I shimmed it level. Then 14132 came along. I used the procedure. Then I had to take all the shims out of the tailstock. Jim B. (16019)
Chicago Area Bed Grinders?
Anybody had any experience with bed grinders/machinery rebuilders local to the Chicago area. Yeah - I know I'm about 2 hours away from SB I've got a ROUGH heavy 10 that needs reground and scraped. Bryan (16390)
Give a call to condor precision scraping service. They are across from midway airport. I think Gerry's price will be in the same ballpark as LeBlond. dennis (16397)
You might also try stk rebuilders in south elgin www.stkrebuilders.com their main specialty is Bridgeports, but I don't know for sure what they limit themselves to. Someone here on the list had sent their bed to SBL themselves for rework. How did that ever turn out? Lurch (16407)
Marking blue compound substitution for hand scraping
I am about to start the hand scraping of my South Bend 10K bed. I wonder if there is any substitute to the Prussian blue marking compound. I know that I will need a lot of compound for the job. Substitute would be used for the rough scraping (until almost full contact is reached on the bed slides) I started to scrape the tailstock slide and it is almost completed (2 surfaces out of 3) So far, I have scraped with success the taper attachment, compound slide, cross slide and I matched the saddle to a bed that didn't have any wear marks. Guy (17160)
Guy- dapra corp (who makes power scrapers) has some water based solutions you might consider. Some people have reported positive results. http://www.dapra.com/biax/scrapers/#access  dennis (17167)
Guy, Cadmium blue artists oil color (the stuff sold in metal tubes for oil painters) has been recommended by quite a few folks over the years, probably most any dark blue good quality artists oil paint could be used. Oil paints dry much slower than acrylics, and clean up easier as well. O.K. - for this application clean up is easier, not necessarily for art applications :-) You can thin with turpentine or raw linseed oil, although the few times I used oil color when out of HiSpot it seemed OK out of the tube. Raw linseed oil will not cure for a long time, unlike "boiled" linseed oil which is what you would normally use with oil color or for rubbed oil finishing of wood work. You might try a small area and see if the wet time is long enough for what you want. It seems a tube of HiSpot would probably do an entire bed at least a few times if put on nice and thin with a brayer, so you may not find the extra hassle of a hardening media to be worth what will likely be a nominal cost saving. Stan (17172)
Mert Baker on the 7x list has several times suggested using a lipstick for this type of job. Just be sure you take one she does not like or use rather than one she likes. JWE (17175)
Guy- are you using to much and spreading it too thickly? Of course a thick layer is essential in the early stages when really shoveling off the bad areas to get down to a more or less level area where one can begin to actually count spots. But I wonder what compels the search for an alternative, certainly not price? I completely re-scraped the ways and table (all of them except the column) on a very worn Brown Sharpe 6 x 18 grinder, and it took less than a full #2 size tube of Hy spot. This _included_ making a number of large gages for the job, for instance a 16" long by 3" tall by about 2" wide double V straight edge (one edge inside, the other outside V's, all scraped to other masters and gages) and a number of smaller V and angle blocks. A RF30 mill-drill (28" table), again all ways, took a bit more than 1/2 tube. A 16" Rockford shaper all front ways and apron, but not column or ram) vise all over took about a tube. I keep eying my 4' 10K, and find it hard to imagine it would take more than a tube. Probably less. That would include making a few gages to keep the ways parallel. smt (17186)
My main problem is generating a straight edge that meets the minimum requirements of flatness for hand scraping. It is where I have spent most of my first tube. I don't have access to a master precision straight edge (I would like to find one, even if it were rusted, just for the casting, min 42 in long) With regard to spreading the compound, I follow the basic rules explained in Machine Tool Reconditioning. In order to spread to the maximum the compound, I add a little bit of oil. (when there is a really thin film of compound, it increases the capacity of transfer. (trick mentioned in machine tool reconditioning). It is just that I find that for the beginning, good marking blue is almost a waste. For the generation of a straight edge I even thought about using grinding compound and the basic techniques used to generate an optical flat until I reach the required shape. Then, finish by hand scraping. Guy (17193)
Well I can see where you are coming from. And the point about "something else" being useful at the very beginning is an intriguing thought. But my personal experience is at odds with the notion that Hi-spot blue (or red) is not economical. I've spent more weeks than I would like to recall on scraping projects, and would guess that for small machines like those mentioned, gages, other tools, etc. the consumption rate is about 1 double sized tube per week. It goes a very long way! I don't want to create it as an argument, but don't personally thin commercial spotting compounds with oil. For me it gives a less distinct mark and makes thing messier (if that is possible!), especially when scraping fine. But as in most things, whatever works is the correct approach. Sort of started the wheels turning over on PM, investigating costs of having a straight edge cast, that I made patterns for a number of years ago. The project is shown at http://www.practicalmachinist.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/004011.html I am not having good luck with responsiveness from foundries. Would be interested in recommendations for likely candidates within say 300mi+/- radius of Elmira, NY. (I know of Cattail Foundry but they are not a first choice as I want to specify the iron and stress relief, rather than "grey iron, as poured") Also, this will only yield a 30" SE. I've got a 4 footer, and ones around 18". Needed one in between. BTW, in looking up the price of Hi-spot ($4.88 for double size tube) I noticed ENCO is also selling water soluble compound. Anyone tried it yet (ENCO's, specifically)? Comparison with Dapra? For generating a straight edge, I think scraping is faster than grinding compound ("lapping"?). Though I do machine or grind short ones first. One of my grinders will do up to 32", but it is old and not real accurate at the extremes, about .004 - .006 out of true flat. So have to finish by scraping anyway. Some time I'll have a free week or so and re-scraping it. BTW, I'll be out of the office for a while. Please don't take lack of response to any (potential) replies or comments as intentional rudeness. smt (17210)
Lathe scraping bar
I have listed on eBay what I was told was a straight edge for scraping lathes. Is this true, or were they pulling my leg and I am selling a boat anchor. The item number is 3812706147. Richard (18652)
Looks like a boat anchor to me. I doubt that was used for scraping. possible that it was used for fine polishing with a light abrasive paste on it or taped to it. (18653)
Scraping is done with something like item 3808609178 Or by hand with what look like long chisels. Jeff (18654)
Dennis must need a boat anchor, didn't take him long to bid on it. I have some files that were flattened on the end and sharpened. I think that is what they used to scrape with. I also have a black and white photo of a man scraping a lathe some where. I will post it when I find it. (18655)
Maybe this was laid down between the ways some how and used as a rest while scraping? It would be a nice anchor though with a place to tie the rope and everything!(18656)
Richard: I have seen a "checking" bar similar to that before. It is not used for scraping but for checking what you have scraped. Notice the angle. I can bet that is the same angle as the dovetails on the Crosslide of a Lathe or Milling machine or even the column of a milling machine. Ron (18657)
That IS a tool used in the scraping operation. It is a reference gauge used to check for high spots. They are usually made of granite or seasoned cast iron. You put one color dye on the scraped surface and wipe it off dry and put another color dye on the reference surface and wipe dry. Then you gently place the two together and move one with a small circular motion. Separate the surfaces and the high spots are shown with the mix of the dye residue very clearly. Scrape down the high spots and clean all dye off with a solvent and do it all over again as many times as is needed. This takes a person with a great deal of skill and patience, or a few gallons of Jack Daniels. I suppose you should refer to it as a "Reference Gauge" for Southbend Lathe Bed Scraping. The angles may be used to test the bed way angle. JP (18669)
I have not seen too many boat anchors that are hand scraped. It worth more than its weight of cast iron. What Richard has listed there is a precision angle straight edge used to scrape dovetails. Looks like the angle is 60. This straight edge was likely used to scrape dovetails on milling machines or shapers This is ideal for re-conditioning a Bridgeport type milling machine with a large table. It allows to mark high spots on the dovetail surfaces. For more info on the use of this bar, see Machine tool re- conditioning. I bought a similar bar last Jan on eBay. (45 X 48" long). Guy (18694)
Way regrinding
I am restoring a Model A, 9", vintage 1945 SB lathe. The way that the carriage rides on has a small ridge indicating wear. I would like to check into the feasibility of regrinding. Has anyone done this, and if so, what is involved? Costs? Done anywhere in the Pacific Northwest? Andy (18782)
Andy, Check with South Bend. I had a 10" bed reground there recently and they did a great job. You also should send your saddle and they will match it to the bed. Cost was $1200 for all, this seems like a lot but it was cheaper than 4 other places I checked. You can make a small skid and bolt the bed to it. This way you can send it common carrier. Paul (18783)
The saddle should also be sent with it so they can grind and match it to the newly finished ways. JP (18786)
Andy, I sent my Heavy 10 bed back to South Bend for a regrind last fall. Total cost including including saddle was about $1200..Turn around time was about 2 weeks. I am sure a regrind on your 9 inch would be in the same neighborhood as far as price goes. They did a very good job. They even sent a note as to how much was ground off the ways. If I remember it was about 12 thousands. Take my advise should you decide to sent out for a regrind. Built a crate for your bed. I built a total enclosed box with a hinged lid. My bed came back in perfect condition despite boot prints, cat tracks and fork truck marks on the box. Ed (18787)
Find someone who parts out lathes like i do and get yourself another bed. I practically give them away. I have a 9" jr, 9" model A and a 13" bed now. None of them have grooves and any of them can be had for $50. No they are not perfect, they have nicks and stuff from use but sure beats paying couple thousand. jeff (18788)
Jeff, I'm not in the market for a new bed yet but do you also have some for the Heavy Ten and what would it set me back? Tom (18789)
I just checked with South Bend and was advised for the 4 1/2' model the way regrind is $1052 and matching the saddle is $270. I have not checked yet on freight; but it is a long distance from Seattle to Ohio or Indiana, wherever they do it. Also, I may check with a local machine shop (not that many out here) to see if they could do it. Andy (18802)
The carriage or saddle may need some fitting to the ways. The head might need to be checked for alignment. You could rebore the headstock bearings for that. The tailstock might need fitting too. As far as prices for beds, I could probably sell ones in good to very good shape for about $100 for a 10K horizontal drive. Shipping cost and poor beds showing up of E-Bay really hurt, both the price and some buyers. UND beds are harder to come by and if (OK I do have one I'm holding onto) I had any in decent saleable shape, I would ask $150. With matching saddle $200, if I'm in a good mood. I haven't price Heavy Ten beds. I would think around $100-200 depending on price. I don't see to many of them on E-Bay. Now tools4cheap seems to be in Washington state. I think the closing of Boeing Plants would affect prices on machinery. So that would affect prices. Smaller parts are easier to ship. So they bring a better price. The bends are very heavy and shipping cost a bit. I had a bed shipped from Ohio to Indiana and it cost over $50. E-Bay deal and the bed was crap. Digital pictures can (usually are deceiving), some sellers haven't a clue about condition. Tom (18804)
After further checking, I did find a machine shop that regrinds ways - Lindmark Machine in Seattle. The price for my 4 1/2' SB 9" would be in the range of $1000, including rebuilding the saddle. Andy (18821)
Check with Schaffer Grinding in Montebello CA. They quoted me somewhere around $470 to grind the bed of a heavy 10. I think it was another $270 to fit the saddle. I also seem to remember someone on eBay with a 4' bed that would ship Fed Ex to the lower 48 for around $80. It might be worth looking into. I just moved my office and can't find the info for Schaffer Grinding right now. It was posted on Practical Machinist in their South Bend forum. Chris (18852)
Getting bed reground
I have mega wear on the ways ( especially the front V) of my 10" I have used it for a lot of non-critical projects but I now need to bore accurate holes for depths of 2" or better. I find that now I have a pretty good taper and need to use a reamer to finish. Are there any specific machine shops that specialize in regrinding or can you still buy new. Frank (21408)
Frank, South Bend will grind it and build the saddle up, scrape it in to original specs. $1200. Paul (21412)
Paul, I had my heavy 10 bed ground and saddle scraped in at South Bend not to long ago for $1200. They did not build the saddle up, just scraped it in. What did they build up your saddle with before they scraped it in? Walt (21423)
Frank, The product is called Turcite. I think it is metal mixed with epoxy. The saddle was built up and the flat on it reground so that there is no shimming needed to line up the gearbox to the carriage to the leadscrew bearing. Paul (21430)
A big plus is that Turcite B will give better than new feel to the carriage. Small pieces of chips etc. that may get under the carriage are not so prone to scratch and gouge the bed ways either. I rebuilt a Monarch lathe using Turcite B (a sheet material that is cut to size and then glued in place) and was amazed by the difference in smoothness of the carriage travel. I did the cross slide and compound as well, once I saw the difference it made on the carriage. $1200 doesn't sound too expensive for that kind of work. I have a heavy 10 that could benefit from that treatment but the shipping cost from up here in Alaska would probably kill me. Ward M. (21460)
The place that is regrinding my bed said that they never user Turcite on the south bends...he uses something else. I don't recall what his reasoning was but will ask him when I go pick it up next week. I'll also post some pictures of the results. Kevin (21482)
Moglice maybe? (21491)
I bet there are lots of members who would like to know the identity, location and phone number of companies others have used to regrind their lathe beds as well as the cost and result. (21496)
Yes, I believe that is what he said. (21511)
I had the bed to my 9" reground by South Bend. If I remember the cost the correctly it was $1100.00. The saddle was also scraped to match the bed and also where the apron bolts to the saddle, to keep the apron lined up with the leadscrew. My tailstock base was scraped also. The original bed was in pretty bad shape. Being my first lathe and not knowing that much about them, the one I bought was pretty much good as a boat a boat anchor. The guy I bought it from was a machinist and basically lied about the condition. The lathe was sitting on the floor with a bad motor and so I wasn't able to power it up. Once I got a new motor it made a lot of noise when running it because it was so worn out. Ah well - lesson learned - the hard (expensive) way. I got a good as new headstock off ebay for a decent price, and the lathe works great now. Of course a few more things need to be done to make it better but it is useable now. Alex (21520)
My reground bed
If any of you recall, I took my bed in to be reground a few weeks back. He finished the bed and I got to swing by and take a look at it. It looks nice, I can't wait to use it. He had offered to show me how to mate the apron, etc and rebuild the cross-slide but I decided to just let him do it instead. He has offered to let me work with him this weekend and show me how to do some of the things like fitting phenolic (which is how he is going to do my saddle, etc) and frosting. Should be very interesting. I am going to take him up on it. I will definitely take my camera along this time so I can get some pictures of my his work. Maybe I'll offer to throw up a web page for him so he can display some of what he does. I am curious, for those of you that sent your beds to South Bend, did they frost the bed as well? Kevin (21588)
Kevin, They offer it for an added charge. I think it is $150 Paul (21590)
Paul. Do you know how important the frosting is? Is it just cosmetic? (21595)
Kevin, It is used to distribute and hold the oil lubricating the ways. I didn't have mine done but they insisted on frosting the underside of the saddle. Paul (21604)
I wish South Bend had told me about this option when I sent mine to be reground. Is frosting the same as the scraped look? Alex (21605)
Paul, I haven't been following the messages, but I assume you recently had a bed reground. Where? I've just acquired an older heavy 10 with moderate wear on the ways. I would consider having the bed done depending on cost and distance from me. (I live in South Louisiana, it seems that everything is far away.) Greg (21626)
Greg, I sent my bed to South Bend Lathe in northern Indiana. The trucking was about $40 each way. I built a skid that was bigger than the bed and put 4x4's on the bottom for tow motor forks. I bolted the bed to the skid and shrink wrapped thick Styrofoam all around it. It came back on the same skid with the Styrofoam repacked on it. Took about 3 weeks. Paul (21627)
I had it done in Indianapolis. He charged me $450 to grind the bed. I'm also having him fit the saddle, headstock, and tailstock. He is also going to repair the worn dovetails on the cross-slide. I think it is going to be another $300 for that work. He is fitting them all with phenolic so I won't have to shim the rack or the gearbox. I saw my bed last weekend when I dropped off the saddle and he did a good job. He let me hang out with him last Saturday and showed me how to do some things like scraping and flaking - he's a real good guy. I do web apps for a living and I have some unused space on my web server so I offered to take some pictures of his work and throw it up on a web page once I get my stuff back. I'll post a URL once that happens. If you are interested, the company name is Acme Machine Tool Rebuilders and the # is 317-409-3006. Kevin (21632)
Paul, Thanks much for the info. Mine is a short, (3 1/2 foot) heavy ten bed. I've e-mailed Rose for info, but haven't yet heard from her. If you don't mind my asking, what was your cost for the regrind? Greg (21641)
Someone told me recently that Rose is no longer with either SBL or LeBlond, that she had started her own company. Anyone know anything about this? (21642)
Rose Marvin Parts Works, Inc. 3702 W Sample St Ste 1104 South Bend IN 46619-2947 Business: (574) 289-7781 Business Fax: (574) 289-7783 E-mail: rose@p... Parts for South Bend Lathes.  Scott Logan (21645)
Yes it is true. She is at partsworks now. Info around here somewhere. (21649)
Greg, Rose is not at South Bend anymore but she may be able to tell you who is doing the bed grind. Mine is also a 10L with a 42" bed. It was $1000 for the bed, I paid another $200 to have the saddle reworked and scraped to fit the bed. Frosting the ways was $200 more but a guy I know is going to do that for me. Some on this thread are using a guy in Indy that charges $450 for the bed. He may be doing beds for South Bend as they do not do it in house. Paul (21654)
Greg, I have a Heavy 10 and sent it to South Bend about a year ago for a regrind and scraping of saddle to fit. Total cost was about $1400 if I remember correctly. This is higher than a lot of quotes you see for regrinds by other people other than SB. Turn around time was a little over 2 weeks from time of shipping. Usually takes longer but I was lucky as they told me they were already set up and doing some regrinds. I was very pleased with the regrind and their service. My only advise if shipping by carrier is to fully crate your bed. Takes a little longer than just skidding, but worth the piece of mind to insure safety in transit. Ed (21655)
Paul, Thanks for the info. All things considered if you can buy a used machine for a grand or less and dump another $1,500 or so into reworking costs it's well worth it to have an American machine and not one of the Chinese "things". I guess you have to be into taking things apart. To me, that's half the fun. The bed wear on my machine is moderate. I'm not sure whether I will have it reground or use it the way it is. However, the figures you mention beat what I've heard down here. Greg (21656)
Does Ross still have the serial number info, shipping dates or not? Thomas (21665)
Greg, I live in North La. Maybe just a little closer than you, I know the feeling. I have a 9" that needs a little work, but I need a mill a little worse. Paul (21703)
Kevin, I'm sorry this of your topic a bit. How did you like the quality of the work he did on the lathe regrind? Did you say he was in Indianapolis? I have his name and number from you previous post. John (22435)
John- Yes, he is in Indianapolis. The work is great. Other than my headstock, this thing is in near perfect condition. It was fairly worn. The dovetails on the cross-slide were worn in the middle so the cross-slide was sloppy and the gib was maxed out. He fixed that up as well. I am pretty happy with his work. I didn't have him flake the bed, but he did polish it after the grind and it looks great. I have quite a bit of money sunk into this old lathe so far, but once the headstock situation is taken care of, I will basically have a like-new lathe of much better quality than the imports so it isn't bothering me too much. I plan on taking some pictures once I'm done aligning the headstock and throwing them on a web page. Kevin (22436)
Kevin I am located in Indianapolis also and have considered the bed regrind on my 9A. Can you tell me if he does this for anyone and the ball park cost I could expect to pay? Ed (22458)
Russ or Ed, Based on his previous post he mentioned that for just the regrind of his heavy ten 3.5 bed it was $450. But he had the saddle fitted as well as his crossfeed ways re-machined or scraped. The total was $750. He also mentioned that he was quite busy. I tried calling him today but no one answered. So Kevin did I recall correctly? John (22465)
Ed- He will do it for individuals, yes. My total ended up being 900 with the saddle being fitted and fixing my crosslide dovetails. It was 450 for the bed grind and another 450 for the other services. I think if I didn't need the cross-slide fixed that it would only have been like 300 or 350 to fit the saddle and tailstock and all that. My bed is 3.5 foot. He may charge more for longer lengths - I'm not sure. If you talk to him, just mention the work he did for my lathe - you should get the same pricing. -Kevin (22479)
John- Yes, that is correct - except that the total was 900 due to having the cross-slide dovetails machined. I'm surprised he didn't answer, I know he is busy but he always answered when I called. He has two numbers on his card: Home: 317-486-8032 Mobile:317-409-3006 I think I always used the mobile number. Here's a scan of his card sorry about the awful quality (22480)
Lurch, I sent my bed to South Bend a year ago. It had really bad wear, so much that somebody put a shim under the rack to keep the drive gear engaged when it got to the worn area. The saddle was also badly worn. The bed was $1000 to regrind to mirror finish, the saddle was $250 to be built up with turcite, ground and hand scraped. They also ground the outside flat (saddle) so that the carriage would not need to be shimmed. I thought this was a fair price. My brother dropped off the bed at South Bend. He said the shop was only 40,000 sq ft. They had no large bed grinders. I have a feeling they are sending the beds out, possibly to an ex-employee that bought the equipment when they went under. This may be the guy in Indy that is doing it for around $500 for the bed only. They will hand scrape and frost the bed for another $250. Paul (22491)
Making scraper from an old file
I need to do some freehand turning of some brass surfaces and want to make a hand-held scraper from an old file. Do I need to anneal the end of the file before grinding it? How do I temper it after grinding? Anybody done this who can share the secret? Frank (22163)
Frank, no need to anneal. Grind the steel as needed. This is plain high carbon steel. Do be careful to not overheat by watching for colors. Cool in water. RichD (22173)
Frank, Also remember that the file is VERY brittle, so don't let it overhang the tool rest by much at all! It could snap off, and in doing so, shatter, producing dangerous "shrapnel". Mario (22175)
 
     
 

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